Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[danielxcutter]

Maybe. I dunno. I don't think #442's that good of a point anyways, you yourself have something that's a much stronger argument.

I suppose it's not likely his sword has the Speed enchantment, then?

[dancrilis]

I suppose it's not likely his sword has the Speed enchantment, then?

At that point he had not activated its legacy powers for the fight and so I think we can assume the blacksmith would have mentioned it instead of saying it was a +5 sword which would occassionally emit a deadly green energy that would be particularly harmful to the undead.

[danielxcutter]

I mean there's nothing preventing it from having the Speed property before that...

Except the GP cost, I guess. Eh.

[illyahr]

Belkar Bitterleaf aka Ali S. Fakenamington (KS:US), aka the Belkster, aka Death's Li'l Helper
Chaotic Evil, Halfling male Ranger 14 / Barbarian 1 (forum, deafened by Holy Word).
Str 14-17 (jump exceeds movement, forum, and carrying capacity in SSDT).
Dex 13+ (required for Spring Attack).
Int <10 (OOPC).
Wis 9 (ability score penalty, and can use a third-level scroll when buffed).
Cha <10 (without any charisma).
Age: 28+ (ranger for three years, over a year ago).
Feats: Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting (all ranger bonus feats); Bounding Assault, Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Dodge (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Improved Sunder, Mobility (prerequisite for Spring Attack), Power Attack (prerequisite for Improved Sunder), Spring Attack; no feats related to special attacks (SSDT).

I don't know if anyone spotted this, but Belkar has to have a Flaw or the Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat was a joke. As a level 14 Ranger/1 Barbarian, he would only have six feats not given by class levels.

[Ephemera]

I don't know if anyone spotted this, but Belkar has to have a Flaw or the Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat was a joke. As a level 14 Ranger/1 Barbarian, he would only have six feats not given by class levels.

I'm pretty sure that has been pointed out and we just couldn't reach consensus about whether "this is a joke" is an acceptable possibility or if we should just conclude he has an extra feat. I suppose we should probably have a note that it's too many feats though.

[ebarde]

I don't get how the hydra thing translates to improved sunder

[Quartz]

I don't get how the hydra thing translates to improved sunder

You need it to chop all the heads off.

[dancrilis]

I don't know if anyone spotted this, but Belkar has to have a Flaw or the Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat was a joke. As a level 14 Ranger/1 Barbarian, he would only have six feats not given by class levels.

Given that he is able to perform 7 attacks a round (you can argue for 8) I think it is likely he is at least level 16+ given that to get 7 (without haste or the like) you need your full attack bonus and 3 more for two weapon fighting (and associated feats).

Him being level 18+ and having the full seven feats would not be out of line in my view.

[InvisibleBison]

I don't get how the hydra thing translates to improved sunder

The hydra doesn't make any attacks of opportunity against him.


Also, Craft Disturbing Mental Image is clearly a joke and shouldn't be listed among Belkar's feats.

[ziproot]

The hydra doesn't make any attacks of opportunity against him.


Also, Craft Disturbing Mental Image is clearly a joke and shouldn't be listed among Belkar's feats.

And for all we know, in the Order of the Stick RPG rules, you can have as many extra feats as you want as a joke.

[InvisibleBison]

And for all we know, in the Order of the Stick RPG rules, you can have as many extra feats as you want as a joke.

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

tencharacters

[danielxcutter]

Where did he have seven attacks again? Don't remember. If they were on the same target(and V couldn't have cast Haste on him), it'd make sense, but if they were spread across multiple targets it might be Cleave or something, I dunno.

[ebarde]

Belkar being 18 sounds wrong idk, I feel that the comic pretty explicitedly puts the entire order a bit below Redcloak who just now got 9th level spells. Also, is decapitating a Hydra a sunder check?

[Ortho]

How sure are we of Elan's Intelligence score? In strip 150c, Belkar states that Elan's Intelligence is 2.

Spoiler: 150c

Show

Poor little [dog] only has an Intelligence score of 2.

So does Elan and no one expected me to train him.

[dancrilis]

Where did he have seven attacks again? Don't remember. If they were on the same target(and V couldn't have cast Haste on him), it'd make sense, but if they were spread across multiple targets it might be Cleave or something, I dunno.

Six slashes and a trip makes seven - I am assuming when he stabbed her on the ground that was an attack of opportunity.

We should probably give him Improved Trip also.

As for it pushing his level too high - we have reason to believe that Roy was level 16+ when he fought Xykon (as mentioned previously), and we have reason to believe that Haley hit level 15 in that fight (based on her attack rate in it versus later), and we know that Bozzok was at least 4 levels higher then Haley and Belkar handled him like a chump.

Belkar being closer to Bozzok's level is not that unreasonable.

[Yanisa]

How sure are we of Elan's Intelligence score? In strip 150c, Belkar states that Elan's Intelligence is 2.

Spoiler: 150c

Show

Poor little [dog] only has an Intelligence score of 2.

So does Elan and no one expected me to train him.

An Intelligence score of 2 is impossible for many reasons, but the main one is that character creation states to increase a 1 or 2 in int to a 3.

The other two factors that human have no penalty to int, thus cannot get lower then 3 in character creation. Then there is the description of int: "A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3." Elan is stupid, but at least acts like a human.

I'm unsure why 4 is the lower bound, and not 3.

As for it pushing his level too high - we have reason to believe that Roy was level 16+ when he fought Xykon (as mentioned previously), and we have reason to believe that Haley hit level 15 in that fight (based on her attack rate in it versus later), and we know that Bozzok was at least 4 levels higher then Haley and Belkar handled him like a chump.

The interesting problem with the "higher level theory" is that we known that the party started with the same levels. And leveled up twice in roughly the same period. (Belkar is in fact behind the XP, not in front of the party.) It gets a bit more vague after the Dungeon because we never see a group level up again, but we have no real reason to think one character will quickly out level the other characters. Only after the battle of azure city, Roy's dead and the time skip we start to have room to add "offscreen XP" to characters and we see that after Book 2 the characters levels start to differ more and more.

In the case of Roy that means is really unlikeable he gained so much more XP then the rest of the party to gain 2 whole levels ahead of them. We follow the party on screen for the most time and see no room for him to gain that much more XP. If we assume he gained that XP after dying, the remark of him "catching up to his level" doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless we assume he leveled twice between 990 and 1230, but again we follow the party mostly on screen and see no room for so much XP without the rest of the party being there too.

Belkar's demonstration is after the time skip, however we see him, after the time skip, level up from a wight. As a wight is CR3 creature, a level 11 or higher PC won't get XP from that (something we have seen earlier with Belkar.) In fact this could be used to argue Belkar's level as lower, but that's besides my point.
If we assume Belkar to be 18, he must have gained (and lost and restored) that level 18 there. In order to gain XP the encounter needed have a CR of 11. Something a bunch of wight together won't make.

It's hard to rhyme to the attack Roy and Belkar deliver with the logical flow of XP. I don't have an answer for that, but I am pointing out why it feels wrong, in rule based terms, to put Roy and Belkar at higher levels. We don't see them gain that XP on screen, nor have room to think all that XP happened off screen.

[danielxcutter]

Didn't the Giant flat-out say that he doesn't really care about the actual XP totals any more?

[dancrilis]

The interesting problem with the "higher level theory" is that we known that the party started with the same levels.

No we don't - it is assumed by this topic that they did but it is not something that has actually been confirmed to my knowledge.
My personal feeling is that they didn't start at the same level (although Belkar did indicate that he and Vaarsuvius were the same level - and it could be read to be wider then the two of them).

Belkar's demonstration is after the time skip, however we see him, after the time skip, level up from a wight. As a wight is CR3 creature, a level 11 or higher PC won't get XP from that (something we have seen earlier with Belkar.) In fact this could be used to argue Belkar's level as lower, but that's besides my point.

If we assume Belkar to be 18, he must have gained (and lost and restored) that level 18 there. In order to gain XP the encounter needed have a CR of 11. Something a bunch of wight together won't make.

Belkar does mention that the wights had decent HD so they might be better then normal wights - also the encounter included Tsukiko and you get XP for the encounter rather then the individual makeup of the encounter, so despite the fact that the wight might not have added any experience to the encounter it is possible that defeating it counted as a step towards resolving the encounter and thereby would generate some of the XP for the overall encounter.

[Yanisa]

Didn't the Giant flat-out say that he doesn't really care about the actual XP totals any more?

Ssst, we still act like it matter, even though the Giant stop caring about strictly following the rules years ago.

No we don't - it is assumed by this topic that they did but it is not something that has actually been confirmed to my knowledge.
My personal feeling is that they didn't start at the same level (although Belkar did indicate that he and Vaarsuvius were the same level - and it could be read to be wider then the two of them).

It's based on #0012 and #0124. Even if you assume #0012 isn't evidence for everyone. It weird they all level up at the same time after gaining the exact same amount of XP while they all have different levels.

Possible even mathematically impossible because different levels get different XP.

Belkar does mention that the wights had decent HD so they might be better then normal wights - also the encounter included Tsukiko and you get XP for the encounter rather then the individual makeup of the encounter, so despite the fact that the wight might not have added any experience to the encounter it is possible that defeating it counted as a step towards resolving the encounter and thereby would generate some of the XP for the overall encounter.

True, didn't we also had some evidence Tsukiko might be higher then level 12 (due teleport)? Still Belkar barely fought Tsukiko and only after that level up, sounds weird he gained XP for her when it's unsure he would even fight her.

[b_jonas]

I don't know if anyone spotted this, but Belkar has to have a Flaw or the Craft Disturbing Mental Image feat was a joke. As a level 14 Ranger/1 Barbarian, he would only have six feats not given by class levels.

Didn't Belkar say somewhere that he's a wanted criminal in most towns? If he did, that sounds like a flaw that is worth extra character points. But I might be mixing this up with R2-D2 from Darths & Droids, who took a similar flaw.

[danielxcutter]

Didn't Belkar say somewhere that he's a wanted criminal in most towns? If he did, that sounds like a flaw that is worth extra character points. But I might be mixing this up with R2-D2 from Darths & Droids, who took a similar flaw.

There’s no canon Flaw that does that. Though a lenient DM might allow that if you talk them into it and you RP it so that it matters.

[dancrilis]

Roy Greenhilt
Skills: Bluff 0, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 2+, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: Planes, Listen low, Profession: Baseball Player (BRITF), Profession: Goatherd, Ride 1, Sense Motive 0 (OOPC), Spellcraft, Spot low.

Should Roy have some method of identifing poison (panel 10).
I would suggest Craft Alchemy for the 'how to perform the craft’s daily tasks' element which likely includes identifing poison - but not sure if there is a better fit.

[InvisibleBison]

Should Roy have some method of identifing poison (panel 10).
I would suggest Craft Alchemy for the 'how to perform the craft’s daily tasks' element which likely includes identifing poison - but not sure if there is a better fit.

It would be pretty weird for Roy to have bought ranks in Craft (alchemy), since you have to be a spellcaster to actually craft any alchemical items.

[Emanick]

It would be pretty weird for Roy to have bought ranks in Craft (alchemy), since you have to be a spellcaster to actually craft any alchemical items.

He might have picked up 1 rank in it simply by hanging around the Greenhilt household for 18 years, and maybe taking an elective credit or two at Bash U. It’s not useless, as the linked strip indicates, and I could see it being a frequently encountered subject in his home.

[danielxcutter]

...Maybe Craft(poisonmaking)?

[Yanisa]

Detect Poison allows a Craft Alchemy or Wisdom check to identify poisons. This is, as far as I know, the only place with a rule for identifying poisons. As far recognizing a character is poisoned, there are no rules for except using detect poison. We can call out some skills (Heal and Spot), but there no rules, so no consensus.

So we either assume Roy can cast Detect Poison, or we assume the rules of detecting poison also works without the spell. In both cases we don't need skill ranks in a skill, as a Wisdom Check is enough and Roy has a high wisdom.

[Reboot]

If nothing else, #1231 confirms that Commune - which by SRD is limited to yes/no or five-word answers - has been houseruled out of all recognition.

[danielxcutter]

Thor did say he set a custom ringtone. Considering the circumstances this might just be an exception.

[arimareiji]

Thor did say he set a custom ringtone. Considering the circumstances this might just be an exception.

The benefits of spells that affect others' actions tend to be written from the caster's point of view, as a "This is all you're guaranteed to get through your own force of will." For example, Suggestion only guarantees the target will do XYZ -- but if it so happens that the target agrees with the caster's goal, they may go far above and beyond. I'd think Commune works similarly, especially considering you're not guaranteed to reach the god directly in the first place.

Or, think of it like paparazzi scoring an 10-minute interview with a celebrity. All they've been (relatively) guaranteed by the arrangement is polite conversation and a few superficial answers. But the celebrity might choose to start talking about their deepest, darkest secrets if it fits their purposes.

[Ephemera]

The benefits of spells that affect others' actions tend to be written from the caster's point of view, as a "This is all you're guaranteed to get through your own force of will." For example, Suggestion only guarantees the target will do XYZ -- but if it so happens that the target agrees with the caster's goal, they may go far above and beyond. I'd think Commune works similarly, especially considering you're not guaranteed to reach the god directly in the first place.

Or, think of it like paparazzi scoring an 10-minute interview with a celebrity. All they've been (relatively) guaranteed by the arrangement is polite conversation and a few superficial answers. But the celebrity might choose to start talking about their deepest, darkest secrets if it fits their purposes.

+1 for this, which is similar to what I was about to say. "Thor, can we talk?" would fit the RAW of the spell. Although it does beg the question of how exactly Thor can summon Durkon's astral projection or whatever it is to his location for the actual conversation. I'm willing to leave that as "he's a god, and OOTS gods obviously have powers beyond exactly what DnD deities can do via RAW."