Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[danielxcutter]

I don't think Serini not being mentioned in the list of Neutral characters means anything one way or another, since the Giant ended that post by saying that there were additional neutral characters who he specifically did not include in the list.

Yeah that’s fair.

Somehow I have difficulty seeing Orange as that much more powerful than Serini. At any rate, I seriously doubt a high ranking outsider would call her "boss".

Maybe more like Orangevoice works for said powerful being, I guess.

Serini is not quite as clever as she thinks she is, but I'm pretty sure she's not that dumb.

I sure hope so!

I don't think that:

Spoiler: SOD

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"Ah ah treants destroyed the gate due to a fire and is that a goblin I see!"

Is the vital information that you think it is.

Spoiler: SOD

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But he could have scried on Redcloak or used a spell like Legend Lore or Contact Other Plan or Wish or whatever to figure out more from there.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think that:

Spoiler: SOD

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"Ah ah treants destroyed the gate due to a fire and is that a goblin I see!"

Is the vital information that you think it is.

I've re-checked p. 69 of SoD. Guess what?

Spoiler: SoD

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When the Gate explode, Redcloak, the very distinctive looking goblin cleric whom the Guard would ABSOLUTELY recognize, dragging the distinctive looking half-eyed goblin was standing right next to the Gate, saying stuff that made it crystal clear that he knows what it is and has designs for it.

Also keep in mind that Scrying can do wonders with less, so all in all, I don't think your theory is a very good theory.

[danielxcutter]

I've re-checked p. 69 of SoD. Guess what?

Spoiler: SoD

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When the Gate explode, Redcloak, the very distinctive looking goblin cleric whom the Guard would ABSOLUTELY recognize, dragging the distinctive looking half-eyed goblin was standing right next to the Gate, saying stuff that made it crystal clear that he knows what it is and has designs for it.

Also keep in mind that Scrying can do wonders with less, so all in all, I don't think your theory is a very good theory.

Uh… I don’t disagree with your actual point.

Spoiler: SOD

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But I’m not sure if the Guard would have instantly recognized Redcloak. I guess HtPGHS took place before that, though.

[Metastachydium]

Uh… I don’t disagree with your actual point.

Spoiler: SOD

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But I’m not sure if the Guard would have instantly recognized Redcloak. I guess HtPGHS took place before that, though.

Why?

Spoiler: SoD

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When they hunted down the previous Bearer, it looked like they knew exactly what they were looking for. I don't see why they couldn't recognize the Mantle without being aware of its actual significance.

[danielxcutter]

Why?

Spoiler: SoD

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When they hunted down the previous Bearer, it looked like they knew exactly what they were looking for. I don't see why they couldn't recognize the Mantle without being aware of its actual significance.

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Well, not immediately after Redcloak’s village was slaughtered I guess, because they didn’t know anything about the Mantle. But yeah I guess they’d have learned since then, going by O-Chul’s story.

[Metastachydium]

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Well, not immediately after Redcloak’s village was slaughtered I guess, because they didn’t know anything about the Mantle. But yeah I guess they’d have learned since then, going by O-Chul’s story.

I still don't get it.

Spoiler: SoD, p. 11

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Revered Master: They come for me, personally, just like they did for my master and her master before. (…) HEY! Human filth! (…) I'm the one you want.
Paladin no. 1: The red cloak!
Paladin no. 2: Sapphire Guard, converge and execute!
They know about the Bearers, and they know that the Bearers are wearing a specific red cloak.

[danielxcutter]

Oh. Okay then.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: SOD

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But he could have scried on Redcloak or used a spell like Legend Lore or Contact Other Plan or Wish or whatever to figure out more from there.

Spoiler: SOD

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So you think that the only reason he didn't use those spells to locate his target was because he didn't know enough to go 'I wish I knew the location of the goblins who were near the gate when it exploded' hoping to find some connection to what happened to Lirian's soul instead of merely going 'I wish I knew what happened to Lirian's soul'.

I've re-checked p. 69 of SoD. Guess what?

Spoiler: SoD

Show

When the Gate explode, Redcloak, the very distinctive looking goblin cleric whom the Guard would ABSOLUTELY recognize, dragging the distinctive looking half-eyed goblin was standing right next to the Gate, saying stuff that made it crystal clear that he knows what it is and has designs for it.

Also keep in mind that Scrying can do wonders with less, so all in all, I don't think your theory is a very good theory.

Spoiler: SOD

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Eugene a wizard with a cleric in party who spent years hunting Xykon turned up nothing - I suspect that Xykon kept himself well enough warded from scrying even before cloister.

The alternative theories of 'Serini was in the room with Xykon and Soon and stood by and watched everything happen' or 'Serini is such a powerful rogue she can have better scrying then seemingly anyone else on the planet' I find less likely then her divination device for monitoring the gates showed her what happened to the gates they were monitoring in the minutes leading to when the feed died.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: SOD

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So you think that the only reason he didn't use those spells to locate his target was because he didn't know enough to go 'I wish I knew the location of the goblins who were near the gate when it exploded' hoping to find some connection to what happened to Lirian's soul instead of merely going 'I wish I knew what happened to Lirian's soul'.

He definitely did the latter first, probably a couple of times in a row. He came up empty. Do you really think that his reaction to that would have been obsessively repeating the process that consistently did nothing instead of following a clear clue if he had one? You are seriously underselling Dorukan's capacity for reasoning.

Spoiler: SOD

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Eugene a wizard with a cleric in party who spent years hunting Xykon turned up nothing - I suspect that Xykon kept himself well enough warded from scrying even before cloister.

Eugene was quite far from being epic at that point and

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while Xykon could sense Dorukan's scrying thingamajobber, that doesn't stop Dorukan from succesfully scrying on Xykon at the end of SoD. (Also, I seriously doubt that abjuration is the Bony Bastard's forte).

Not that Dorukan had to scry on Xykon in the first place. Scrying on Redcloak or Right-Eye would have been a lot less difficult.

The alternative theories of 'Serini was in the room with Xykon and Soon and stood by and watched everything happen' or 'Serini is such a powerful rogue she can have better scrying then seemingly anyone else on the planet'

I can't recall anyone arguing for the former and my discontent with Serini knowing about what transpired in the throne room is mainly based around how ridiculous I'd find the latter to be the case.

I find less likely then her divination device for monitoring the gates showed her what happened to the gates they were monitoring in the minutes leading to when the feed died.

Again, we know for certain that Soon's device did not work like that and there is evidence for the notion that Dorukan's didn't either. In other words, your theory either contradicts known facts (I'm mainly referring to Soon's device here) or it implies that Serini somehow had a better device than the dedicated casters of the team (which is basically the same thing as "Serini is the most powerful caster in existence and she just bypassed everyone else's defenses on her own" which is an idea that I continue not to like).

[dancrilis]

Again, we know for certain that Soon's device did not work like that

Got any sources?

[danielxcutter]

Got any sources?

Got any sources that Serini's does?

[Metastachydium]

Got any sources?

Like I said upthread, it's been established that they had to send operatives to the Gate to try and figure out what happened to the Gate and despite the fact that Redcloak should have been visible on your imaginary feed and the fact that they would have immediately recognized the Bearer once they saw him, they, well, failed to figure out what happened to the Gate. Big time.

[dancrilis]

Got any sources that Serini's does?

Does what?

Like I said upthread, it's been established that they had to send operatives to the Gate to try and figure out what happened to the Gate and despite the fact that Redcloak should have been visible on your imaginary feed and the fact that they would have immediately recognized the Bearer once they saw him, they, well, failed to figure out what happened to the Gate. Big time.

They found nothing conclusive, they know that Redcloak is looking for the gate - the play by play if it getting destroyed tells them nothing other then that he found one.

They spend a lot of time searching for him (both before and after the gate was destroyed) - and came up with nothing.

[Metastachydium]

They found nothing conclusive, they know that Redcloak is looking for the gate - the play by play if it getting destroyed tells them nothing other then that he found one.

They spend a lot of time searching for him (both before and after the gate was destroyed) - and came up with nothing.

Ahm… Hello? Panel no. 4 shows paladins looking for and missing obvious clues that Redcloak was involved. Were you right, there would be no need for that.

[dancrilis]

Ahm… Hello? Panel no. 4 shows paladins looking for and missing obvious clues that Redcloak was involved. Were you right, there would be no need for that.

It does yes - and so?

Soon knew the gate was destroyed, we don't know how much else he knew.
If he knew nothing else then he sent his paladins to investigate.
If he knew it was the bearer of the crimson mantle then his paladins had a actual concrete lead on the location of their old foe and also evidence that he had taken part in the destruction of a gate - so he sent them to investigate.

Either way they turned up with nothing actionable when they arrived and investigated.

[danielxcutter]

Does what?

Does anything particularly different than Soon's or Dorukan's or whoever's.

They found nothing conclusive, they know that Redcloak is looking for the gate - the play by play if it getting destroyed tells them nothing other then that he found one.

They spend a lot of time searching for him (both before and after the gate was destroyed) - and came up with nothing.

No, they sent two paladins who blew their Search checks harder than Roy hit the ground three books ago and came up with nothing. Besides, Dorukan had infinitely better methods of finding information than them and still didn't find jack.

I don't see how Serini would have any way of figuring out what happened during the fall of a Gate with only what the Scribblers had by default.

[Metastachydium]

It does yes - and so?

Soon knew the gate was destroyed, we don't know how much else he knew.
If he knew nothing else then he sent his paladins to investigate.
If he knew it was the bearer of the crimson mantle then his paladins had a actual concrete lead on the location of their old foe and also evidence that he had taken part in the destruction of a gate - so he sent them to investigate.

Either way they turned up with nothing actionable when they arrived and investigated.

The scene carries the clear implication that they didn't find those clues and therefore didn't learn that the Bearer was involved. Otherwise the panel would make little sense. It would also be weird for Shojo not to mention that Team Evil was behind that incident if they knew that much.
(Also, Soon was already dead at that point Shojo sent the paladins.)

[dancrilis]

Does anything particularly different than Soon's or Dorukan's or whoever's.

I think they likely all did this, as for evidence no it is a theory to explain her knowledge of events - but I am not claiming that it is the actual answer.

No, they sent two paladins who blew their Search checks harder than Roy hit the ground three books ago and came up with nothing.

We see two in panel (possibly the two best trackers they had with them) we don't know how many else might have been with them.

Besides, Dorukan had infinitely better methods of finding information than them and still didn't find jack.

And you think the missing element that he was lacking was a goblin in a cloak and one with an eyepatch - had he had that clue he would have cracked the case wide open, but wish and vision etc could simple not fill him in on it without the gate telling him and as such the gate must not have told him.

I don't see how Serini would have any way of figuring out what happened during the fall of a Gate with only what the Scribblers had by default.

Based on what you are assuming the Scribblers had by default - you might be right, but that is not my reading of the text at this point in time.

The scene carries the clear implication that they didn't find those clues and therefore didn't learn that the Bearer was involved. Otherwise the panel would make little sense. It would also be weird for Shojo not to mention that Team Evil was behind that incident if they knew that much.

When Roy mentioned in the trial a goblin in a red cloak escaped Shojo didn't clue him into the crimson mantle, I don't see why he would have bothered mentioning it about Lirian's gate if he didn't for Dorukan's.

(Also, Soon was already dead at that point Shojo sent the paladins.)

I actually meant to write Shojo - but in fairness Soon was still floating around the throne room.

[danielxcutter]

Dorukan had far more magical power up his sleeves than possibly the entire city.

"High level goblin cleric with red mantle" isn't that large of a group either. If Xykon, who's divination roughly boils down to "crystal ball" and even less information than that could find Serini, it's safe to say that the devices aren't even able to supply such information.

Besides, the entire point of splitting up was to not see each other again. In practice it turned out that it was really just kicking Soon out, but frankly I'm surprised that they had devices that monitor the status of other Gates at all.

[Metastachydium]

I think they likely all did this, as for evidence no it is a theory to explain her knowledge of events - but I am not claiming that it is the actual answer.

So, ahm, there's evidence against it, no evidence for it and that makes this a viable and likely theory? I don't follow.

We see two in panel (possibly the two best trackers they had with them) we don't know how many else might have been with them.

Again, you do realie that you are implying that the panel in question was intentionally misleading and that the paladins were looking for something they knew was there… for some reason?

And you think the missing element that he was lacking was a goblin in a cloak and one with an eyepatch - had he had that clue he would have cracked the case wide open, but wish and vision etc could simple not fill him in on it without the gate telling him and as such the gate must not have told him.

That would have been a better lead than most. It is more than reasonable to assume that after years of failure Dorukan would have tried to follow it if he had the information in the first place.

When Roy mentioned in the trial a goblin in a red cloak escaped Shojo didn't clue him into the crimson mantle, I don't see why he would have bothered mentioning it about Lirian's gate if he didn't for Dorukan's.

That was during the trial, when he had to pretend he is withholding as much information as possible. Also, you didn't address my main objection there.

I actually meant to write Shojo - but in fairness Soon was still floating around the throne room.

Heh. That's fair.

[dancrilis]

there's evidence against it

You haven't produced any.

Again, you do realie that you are implying that the panel in question was intentionally misleading and that the paladins were looking for something they knew was there… for some reason?

Not really - assume my theory is correct for a moment, then the panel didn't mislead me.
Assuming I am wrong - the panel still didn't mislead me.

I don't take it as evidence of anything other then that Shojo sent paladins and they found nothing (and a potential call back to Miko being the Guards best tracker with her single rank of survival).

That would have been a better lead than most. It is more than reasonable to assume that after years of failure Dorukan would have tried to follow it if he had the information in the first place.

But not a lead that would be difficult to get in other ways - couple of legend lores, a friendly cleric to raise up some of the dead elves, a friendly druid to awaken some local animal etc.

Whether he knew from a major image of the destruction being activated or not he could have found out in other ways and it changes nothing about how he acted.

That was during the trial, when he had to pretend he is withholding as much information as possible. Also, you didn't address my main objection there.

He could have stated later when talking to Roy - that Goblin you mentioned with the red cloak that would be the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the guard have been hunting him for generations due to his plan to unmake/control reality, as he didn't there is no reason to assume he would have mentioned the him relating to Lirian's gate.

Assuming your main objection is that the panel makes little sense it could have merely been a cut away joke - but again whether he knew it was Redcloak or not I don't see that changing anything about what Shojo said.

[Metastachydium]

You haven't produced any.

Yes I did. You're just coming up with more and more convoluted ways of trying to ignore it. I mean, "the Guard sent paladins to the Gate to investigate what they already knew but they couldn't find evidence of what they already had evidence for"? Come on.
It's in fact you who's yet to bring up a good argument in favour of a speculative idea based on nothing. (Also, you explicitly caled this speculation the viability of which depends on other speculations being correct (and so on ad nauseam) the simplest possible solution.)

Not really - assume my theory is correct for a moment, then the panel didn't mislead me.
Assuming I am wrong - the panel still didn't mislead me.

Unlike everyone else who doesn't subscribe to your little theory.

I don't take it as evidence of anything other then that Shojo sent paladins and they found nothing (and a potential call back to Miko being the Guards best tracker with her single rank of survival).

Nah, "they already knew what happened and who was responsible so they sent some paladins over to investigate what they already knew but they failed at that task" didn't miraculously start to make sense. Roy asks a question (what happened to the other Gate that got destroyed?) and Shojo answers (it was destroyed by a fire; we looked into it but didn't find out anything). It's a straightforward affair, and interpreting it the way you do requires quite some effort. Especially given that Shojo basically acknowledges that the simpler reading is correct (v. page no. 2, panels no. 7-8; on the same page, Shojo explains that he only knows about what the Order did in the Dungeon because Eugene told him).

But not a lead that would be difficult to get in other ways - couple of legend lores, a friendly cleric to raise up some of the dead elves, a friendly druid to awaken some local animal etc.
Whether he knew from a major image of the destruction being activated or not he could have found out in other ways and it changes nothing about how he acted.

That's a better point, but still. If he had known exactly how the Gate was destroyed, than he was handed an easy solution on a silver plate and he didn't touch it. I don't think that's likely.

He could have stated later when talking to Roy - that Goblin you mentioned with the red cloak that would be the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, the guard have been hunting him for generations due to his plan to unmake/control reality, as he didn't there is no reason to assume he would have mentioned the him relating to Lirian's gate.

I just re-checked. Roy never tells Shojo about meeting Redcloak. He tells that to Celia when they are discussing their defense strategy. NOt that it matters (for the aforesaid reasons).

[dancrilis]

Yes I did. You're just coming up with more and more convoluted ways of trying to ignore it. I mean, "the Guard sent paladins to the Gate to investigate what they already knew but they couldn't find evidence of what they already had evidence for"? Come on.
It's in fact you who's yet to bring up a good argument in favour of a speculative idea based on nothing. (Also, you explicitly caled this speculation the viability of which depends on other speculations being correct (and so on ad nauseam) the simplest possible solution.)

...

Nah, "they already knew what happened and who was responsible so they sent some paladins over to investigate what they already knew but they failed at that task" didn't miraculously start to make sense. Roy asks a question (what happened to the other Gate that got destroyed?) and Shojo answers (it was destroyed by a fire; we looked into it but didn't find out anything). It's a straightforward affair, and interpreting it the way you do requires quite some effort. Especially given that Shojo basically acknowledges that the simpler reading is correct (v. page no. 2, panels no. 7-8; on the same page, Shojo explains that he only knows about what the Order did in the Dungeon because Eugene told him).

Ah we are looking at this from very different angles.
1. Didn't know: find out what happened.
2. Knew the Crimson Mantle was involved: Finally the targets of our crusades might be found - track them down.

Regardless of what Shojo knew he could have sent people to investigate.

[Metastachydium]

Ah we are looking at this from very different angles.
1. Didn't know: find out what happened.
2. Knew the Crimson Mantle was involved: Finally the targets of our crusades might be found - track them down.

Regardless of what Shojo knew he could have sent people to investigate.

Straight from the two panels I linked (in case you missed it):
Roy: You JUST told me that you didn't learn any information on who burned down Lirian's Gate… but you now claim to have known about us before you unleashed Miko. So which one is the lie?
Shojo: A very good question. The gods smiled on me the day your bard blew up Dorukan's Gate. They sent me a being from the Upper Planes, who told me everything I needed to know about you and your party.

I can't even begin to fathom how you can read this as „we know exactly who burned down down Lirian's Gate and we learned about your blowing up Dorukan's through a magical device.”

[Gurgeh]

It's staggeringly obvious that Shojo and the Sapphire Guard didn't have a clue about Redcloak and Xykon's involvement in the destruction of Lirian's Gate. {scrubbed}

[MultitudeMan]

OK, we can add Light to V's list of known spells.

[Peelee]

OK, we can add Light to V's list of known spells.

It wasn't already?

ETA: Apparently not!

[hamishspence]

To be fair, it's a 0th level spell - a cantrip, and Evocation, which V hasn't barred (but specialises in instead) which means V's starting spellbook will, by default, have it in.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/s...ard.htm#wizard

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice.

[MultitudeMan]

To be fair, it's a 0th level spell - a cantrip, and Evocation, which V hasn't barred (but specialises in instead) which means V's starting spellbook will, by default, have it in.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/s...ard.htm#wizard

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice.

True, but we did list Ray of Frost, just trying to be consistent :D .

Also, I notice we haven't updated Serini's items, and she seems to have demonstrated a few now. In my view, there's been a hand crossbow, a wand of some teleportation spell (probably Dimension Door), and some goggles (my guess would be Goggles of Night, since Rich often uses SRD items unless there's a particular reason not to). I'm not sure if she's firing the poison darts with the hand crossbow somehow, or if she has a blowgun as well.

[b_jonas]

I was looking if we have enough data about Sangwaan to make a statblock. Nope. We only really know four things: she can cast True Seeing (#426 8th, #428 23rd panel); she uses “a combination of wizard magic and numerology to make predictions” (GDGU p. 43) so she's a wizard; Shojo doesn't consider him his best wizard (#379 9th) despite that she can cast a 6th level spell and seems to represent a team of diviners (#271 2nd, #413 1st); she's less than thirty years old (GDGU p. 45), and so probably a human, because elves are unlikely to cast high level spells at that age (#126 8th, the rules say that elves become adults at 110 years of age).