Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

I still don't think that's much of a proof. Telepathic link is a level 5 spell that takes a standard action, and Vaarsuvius cast it outside of combat, so she could just have cast it three times. If she did, the repeated castings wouldn't be shown in panel. She knows how many party members there are, and she planned for a stealth mission here, so she knew to prepare three copies of the spell. Did she cast too many other high level spells today to exclude that? I don't believe so, at least yet.

V clearly casts it in a single use here:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html
If we're going to invent off panel explanations with no evidence they took place then why do we not do that for things like attacks per round for the fighters and Hayley? Why is it only the casters who get jobbed in this way? We should apply Occam's Razor; V casts a spell that requires him to be level 17 to pull off as depicted on panel, ergo V is level 17; exactly what we were expecting him to prove any panel now. Rich forgetting/handwaving a minor aspect of the spell RE: Blackwing shouldn't refute that, no more than we treat V's overland flight differently than normal overland flight (even though V can apparently cast it on others; cos plot handwave).

PS- Why is Telepathic Bond not on V's spell list

[danielxcutter]

Doesn’t V need to be like epic or something to cast it on that many people at once by RAW? And it’s not like we have a feat for Z’zdtri that lets him cast Break Enchantment in one round…

[TooSoon]

Doesn’t V need to be like epic or something to cast it on that many people at once by RAW? And it’s not like we have a feat for Z’zdtri that lets him cast Break Enchantment in one round…

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm
V needs to have a CL of 18 to use it on the 6 other party members. V at level 17 plus the Ion Stone can just do that Blackwing as familiar gets included automatically, but there are some rule limits on it affecting BW that Rich has either forgotten or ignored (much like with Overland flight affecting others). The Occam's razor interpretation is that V is now level 17, as it is the most rules correct application. We're ignoring the handwaving/mistake for BW, but not the whole thing.

[Yanisa]

The one that most annoys me of these 3 is V. We know V needs to be level 17+ to cast the telepathic link on the whole party, so that should have been prima facie evidence. We also know Blackwing would get included automatically by RAW, but because the requirement blackwing stay within a certain distance has been ignored/forgotten by Rich the whole thing has been tossed. The most reasonable explanation is to say "ok, Rich forgot one part of the rule". That way we only disregard 1 rule. Instead people have disregarded both rules. That's ridiculous, and the justifications used aren't good either (i.e. various other instances of rules being handwaved for minor side characters whose stat sheets we don't have, or who could have had a rules based work around). We know V has probably levelled to 17 by now based on how long they've been level 16, this should have been a no brainer to add.

It's interesting how you sum up the debate, show the different sides, and then conclude there is only one proper answer. It's actually these debates, with all the possibility, that prevents us to lock down on anything. What might be likely too you, doesn't fit with other people perception.

Similarly, while I don't mind a likely for Beast Heart Adept (for me that is the only answer), I don't see Ranger as likely yet, based on what we have seen.

I do agree the proof of standard has become very rigid and inconsistent. If you want to argue "rules as written", excluding mistakes from the Giant, we need to put V at caster level 21. That's how the thread generally ran, unless the rules couldn't explain. However we also ask if it's reasonable a character could have gotten those skills. For example a 16th character getting 5 caster level suddenly is hard to explain. I argued the same thing with some of the levels based on amount of attacks. "How can a character have so much more XP then the rest of party?." That causes the most deadlocks in these cases. We see something, the rules can explain it, but it feels outside the story to include.

A likely-tag will solve some of the minor issues, but if we want to cater to more people in these thread, I do feel we need to completely different system. We won't get Belkar likely 17th level since 616 out of this as long as story logic weighs on how we classify characters. I don't think a single tag will help us agree on a lot of the older discussions either.

[TooSoon]

It's interesting how you sum up the debate, show the different sides, and then conclude there is only one proper answer. It's actually these debates, with all the possibility, that prevents us to lock down on anything. What might be likely too you, doesn't fit with other people perception.

Similarly, while I don't mind a likely for Beast Heart Adept (for me that is the only answer), I don't see Ranger as likely yet, based on what we have seen.

I do agree the proof of standard has become very rigid and inconsistent. If you want to argue "rules as written", excluding mistakes from the Giant, we need to put V at caster level 21. That's how the thread generally ran, unless the rules couldn't explain. However we also ask if it's reasonable a character could have gotten those skills. For example a 16th character getting 5 caster level suddenly is hard to explain. I argued the same thing with some of the levels based on amount of attacks. "How can a character have so much more XP then the rest of party?." That causes the most deadlocks in these cases. We see something, the rules can explain it, but it feels outside the story to include.

A likely-tag will solve some of the minor issues, but if we want to cater to more people in these thread, I do feel we need to completely different system. We won't get Belkar likely 17th level since 616 out of this as long as story logic weighs on how we classify characters. I don't think a single tag will help us agree on a lot of the older discussions either.

I'm saying there is only one interpretation if we're being consistent/fair. If we want to go by RAW then cool. I will now advocate V is level 20+ (factoring in the Ion stone). Let's change his stat block now.

[Ortho]

Okay, well, it seems like we're coming to a consensus that a purely RAW interpretation of the comic is pretty nonsensical at this point - which is long overdue, in my opinion. I'm glad we're moving away from that.

I disagree. This is the geekery thread, our focus is to overanalyze the comic and give explanations that work with the rules, even when the Giant isn't thinking of those explanations at all. If you want to collect reasonable stats or stats that are likely to work with some homebrew, rather than almost certain stats that work by the book, you should do that elsewhere, like in a different thread or on Wikia.

Well, this forum has a "one topic, one thread" rule, so it's this thread or nothing, I'm afraid.

Beyond that, I don't see a contradiction. OotS follows D&D rules right up until it doesn't. And as best I can tell, the Giant hasn't homebrewed anything from scratch - everything in the comic has been at least been recognizable as a product of D&D, and we don't need rules-accurate analysis to label something as 'likely'.

[TooSoon]

Okay, well, it seems like we're coming to a consensus that a purely RAW interpretation of the comic is pretty nonsensical at this point - which is long overdue, in my opinion. I'm glad we're moving away from that.



Well, this forum has a "one topic, one thread" rule, so it's this thread or nothing, I'm afraid.

Beyond that, I don't see a contradiction. OotS follows D&D rules right up until it doesn't. And as best I can tell, the Giant hasn't homebrewed anything from scratch - everything in the comic has been at least been recognizable as a product of D&D, and we don't need rules-accurate analysis to label something as 'likely'.

I recommend that when we add some "likely" tags, if that's how we're doing this, we link to both comic strips and to some nicely written up posts that explain in detail all the evidence (e.g. for Xykon the "level 21+, likely much higher" explanation could include references to the extra spell slots for 12th level spells, the absurdly high DC for Superb Dispelling, etc). For others though I would be more inclined to word it more charitably, e.g. for V "likely level 17+", or just "level 17-21", since we've only been keeping V from level 17 out of a demand for an absurdly high standard of proof (which we don't demand of many other characters on this thread, as discussed). Tarquin could be "likely level 21+".

[b_jonas]

V clearly casts it in a single use here:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

She casts it in a single use on herself, Durkon, Roy, Belkar, Blackwing, and at least one more person. We don't see her cast it in a single use for all the party. She can cast on just herself and four additional targets at level 16 of wizard.

and to some nicely written up posts that explain in detail all the evidence

Linking to explanation posts more often when they exist could help, yes, regardless of what kind of evidence we want to accept.

[TooSoon]

She casts it in a single use on herself, Durkon, Roy, Belkar, Blackwing, and at least one more person. We don't see her cast it in a single use for all the party. She can cast on just herself and four additional targets at level 16 of wizard.

Linking to explanation posts more often when they exist could help, yes, regardless of what kind of evidence we want to accept.

The problem is you can use that logic to remove half the proofs on this thread, by just saying "well, it was depicted as being one spell happening on one panel, but maybe other actions took place that weren't depicted on the panels". We could negate every single "attacks per round" proof like that, and a great many others. We can't have one standard of proof when it suits the people running this thread, and another when it doesn't.

I personally want the measured approach of "Rich was trying to depict this, but he forgot about BW needing to stay close to V or handwaved it". If people want to be RAW lawyers then fine; V proved they are level 20+ (20 plus the Ion Stone boost). Let's update the stat block to 20.

[Yanisa]

She casts it in a single use on herself, Durkon, Roy, Belkar, Blackwing, and at least one more person. We don't see her cast it in a single use for all the party. She can cast on just herself and four additional targets at level 16 of wizard.

There isn't really precedence that a wizard can combine two castings of Telepathic Bond into a single telepathic chat. At this point we have seen most everyone talk (including Minrah). Two castings is an easy explanation for more targets then possible (See Durkon's Windwalk) but doesn't truly apply here.

I personally want the measured approach of "Rich was trying to depict this, but he forgot about BW needing to stay close to V or handwaved it". If people want to be RAW lawyers then fine; V proved they are level 20+ (20 plus the Ion Stone boost). Let's update the stat block to 20.

Caster level 21 doesn't require V to be higher then character level 16, the current proven level, although we generally do combine the two. And I do agree that character level 17, caster level 18, is the most fitting explanation. I more so wanted to point out that we cannot combine RAW, what we see in panel and what fits within the story portrayed so far. That's why this thread is inconsistent, as are the proofs required.

To take another example, you won't be able to convince me that Tarquin is likely epic based on 1 panel. Especially when we take in account the amount of rules Rich could have handwaved. The rest of the story portrayed doesn't show Tarquin being epic to me. Maybe I am missing a scene or two, but in general Tarquin felt like a equal threat to the party.

I recommend that when we add some "likely" tags, if that's how we're doing this, we link to both comic strips and to some nicely written up posts that explain in detail all the evidence".

Yeah a restructure like that can help a lot. Could even mean we can add more speculative theories besides the likely things, or add multiple choice for the reader. Gives a lot of freedom instead of a single comic as a single proof.

[TooSoon]

There isn't really precedence that a wizard can combine two castings of Telepathic Bond into a single telepathic chat. At this point we have seen most everyone talk (including Minrah). Two castings is an easy explanation for more targets then possible (See Durkon's Windwalk) but doesn't truly apply here.



Caster level 21 doesn't require V to be higher then character level 16, the current proven level, although we generally do combine the two. And I do agree that character level 17, caster level 18, is the most fitting explanation. I more so wanted to point out that we cannot combine RAW, what we see in panel and what fits within the story portrayed so far. That's why this thread is inconsistent, as are the proofs required.

To take another example, you won't be able to convince me that Tarquin is likely epic based on 1 panel. Especially when we take in account the amount of rules Rich could have handwaved. The rest of the story portrayed doesn't show Tarquin being epic to me. Maybe I am missing a scene or two, but in general Tarquin felt like a equal threat to the party.



Yeah a restructure like that can help a lot. Could even mean we can add more speculative theories besides the likely things, or add multiple choice for the reader. Gives a lot of freedom instead of a single comic as a single proof.

We're discussing bigger issues than Tarquin here, so I don't want to get caught up on it too much, but I have to say my read is different. Tarquin handily faces off against the whole order, and gives the distinct impression he is not even going all out. Even in the final sequence, he's still trying to "teach Elan a lesson", until a plot induced railroad lets them drop him off a ship (which injures him, but not enough that he seems terribly phased). That's just Tarquin, who is the leader (and assumedly strongest member) of the Vector Legion. With his adjusted level Malak was an Epic threat, and Mirron got the V treatment of "find a pretext to get him off panel quickly" after demonstrating themselves to be a minimum of level 15-16. Then we have Laurin, whose exact level is too hard to peg down (because Psychics are like that), but whose energy expenditure and abilities certainly suggest she is considerably above level 15. That's just the highest it could be pegged down with certainty. I'm not saying the Vector legion is necessarily as strong as Xykon, but I'd be shocked if the teams average level is less than level 20ish given the context we're shown. We already know Malak's adjusted CR makes him higher than that, so he's already dragging the average above 20. If Tarquin turned out to be even higher than that, I wouldn't find that a problem either.

[Morty]

Tarquin isn't the leader of the Vector Legion. He thinks he is, but the rest of the party treat him as an eccentric that they put up with because his insight into narrative concepts is useful. He has to lean on favors to get Laurin and Miron to do what he wants.

[danielxcutter]

Malack’s adjusted CR isn’t nearly that high. His ECL perhaps, but not CR.

Also Tarquin seems to be a Swordsage and those are pretty good at playing defensively if they really want to. Something like Monk 2/Fighter 4/Swordsage X… honestly fits what we know of him quite well.

I’d say the Legion’s around the 15~16 CR range more or less, if I gave a rough guess.

Incidentally I don’t see any proof that Laurin “has” to be considerably over level 16? Between age bonuses, an ioun stone, possible inherent bonuses, and a good starting Int it’s quite easy for her to have high power points. And remember, manifesters use power points and not slots, so she can effectively burn “low level slots” to cast more “higher level slots” at exchange of being considerably drained after not too long.

[TooSoon]

Malack’s adjusted CR isn’t nearly that high. His ECL perhaps, but not CR.

Also Tarquin seems to be a Swordsage and those are pretty good at playing defensively if they really want to. Something like Monk 2/Fighter 4/Swordsage X… honestly fits what we know of him quite well.

I’d say the Legion’s around the 15~16 CR range more or less, if I gave a rough guess.

Incidentally I don’t see any proof that Laurin “has” to be considerably over level 16? Between age bonuses, an ioun stone, possible inherent bonuses, and a good starting Int it’s quite easy for her to have high power points. And remember, manifesters use power points and not slots, so she can effectively burn “low level slots” to cast more “higher level slots” at exchange of being considerably drained after not too long.

ECL excuse me... which is high. Malak would be what 20+? Pretty much in line with what I was saying.

I don't agree with Morty that Tarquin isn't the leader, though they clearly have a more complex team relationship than that. Roy is the leader of the OOTS, but that doesn't mean he can order Belkar or the others around anymore than Tarquin can, so I think Morty is imposing an unduly high burden on proving his leadership. Most of the teams we've seen so far have more complex dynamics than just "he's in charge", ranging from the Linear Guild to Team Evil where Sabine and Redcloak are in many ways the functional team leaders, but choose to defer to the nominal leaders for various reasons. As for Laurin, maybe not "considerably", and there are always work arounds, but to me it seems like she's notably higher than 15 (though what that means is open to interpretation).

I'll leave it there though because the other issues we're working through here are more important, and hopefully we can now make the appropriate adjustments to the stat blocks if everyone agrees. I vote V's reads "level 17+", and Xykon's reads "level 21+, likely much higher" with the appropriate links. Or if people prefer V to read "level 17-20" I'm cool with that too?

[Metastachydium]

I don't agree with Morty that Tarquin isn't the leader

How about the Giant? One would think he'd know best:

Tarquin provides insight into narrative roles that translates to actual concrete power in the OOTS world. You can make plans based on those things and they work. Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make. He has since revised that into believing that he is their leader and master strategist. He is, in a very real way, the Elan of his team, only his team's goal is conquer everything instead of save the world.

[dancrilis]

No, actually. You've listed two cases of "assume the two contiguous panels are representing the same round"; which is fundamentally different from the Haley "assume the two contiguous rounds are represented by the same panel" case. (This is the type of disagreement you're referring to, I believe)

This is fair I perhaps should have said 'This is helpfully the very similiar criteria that we used to justify Haley moving from level 14 to level 15' - with debate on how similiar it is then open to debate, I meant more in 'appearance of amount of attacks'.

The way I imagine it, there would be rigorous debate (not exactly a lofty goal for this forum) and more or less a consensus before tagging it, but I'm open to any suggestions that would be better.

I kindof think that is what we have now on inclusions or not.

How about the Giant? One would think he'd know best:

In fairness the person who keeps everyone working together could be judged to be the leader.


On the Vaarsuvius being level 16 and having a caster level of 21+ for Telepathic Bond - the Pious Spellsurge feat would be an easy explanation for that and requires less assumptions then making them level 20.

[danielxcutter]

Do we have any canon examples of things not working as they should be RAW? I remember Z casting Break Enchantment with a standard to be one of them.

[Metastachydium]

In fairness the person who keeps everyone working together could be judged to be the leader.

In fairness, the other members of the Legion are shown to genuinely like each other and two members are shown not to like Tarquin all that much, so I'm not sure he's the one keeping them together (and, at any rate, the Giant didn't say that he is).

[danielxcutter]

You know what? Among the Legion members we know about, I actually think Malack might have been the closest thing to the lynchpin. Tarquin doesn't care about anyone as much as he thinks but he still does somewhat and Laurin was positively furious at his destruction.

[Quartz]

We did the Telepathic link before: V can get everyone in one casting if she casts it as a Twinned spell, using her 9th level slot.
That sounds extravagant but maybe she doesn’t have a 9th level spell in her spell book.

If you use average damage the fight with the giants shows that Haley is probably 17th level. But there’s nothing stopping her from being 16th level and rolling well.

[dancrilis]

In fairness, the other members of the Legion are shown to genuinely like each other and two members are shown not to like Tarquin all that much, so I'm not sure he's the one keeping them together (and, at any rate, the Giant didn't say that he is).

He did say.

Basically, his contribution was to take five powerful evil people and keep them from making the same mistakes that clichéd villains always make.

I would say that idiotic backstabbing and an inability to resolve basic personality conflicts related to seperate desires is one of the 'mistakes that clichéd villains always make'.

[TooSoon]

We did the Telepathic link before: V can get everyone in one casting if she casts it as a Twinned spell, using her 9th level slot.
That sounds extravagant but maybe she doesn’t have a 9th level spell in her spell book.

If you use average damage the fight with the giants shows that Haley is probably 17th level. But there’s nothing stopping her from being 16th level and rolling well.

That still requires V to be level 17, and thus we should update the stat block.

[b_jonas]

There isn't really precedence that a wizard can combine two castings of Telepathic Bond into a single telepathic chat.

Yes, that's why she needs three castings of Telepathic Bond, not just two.

[Yanisa]

Do we have any canon examples of things not working as they should be RAW? I remember Z casting Break Enchantment with a standard to be one of them.

How about Tarquin catching two arrows? I should check the old discussions, but I'm pretty sure we need to assume the Giant forget/didn't care that the epic unlimited deflect arrows doesn't RAW allow for unlimited catching arrows. Because they are different feats that modify the same base feat. I do think a lot of GM's allow this interaction, especially with Reflect Arrows also existing.
Edit: There is also this fight, in which Tarquin does a lot of hard to explain things. (Multiple attacks during other attacks, spinning Durkon, the catch and stab arrow.)

I am also thinking about how we can handle a future stat block. So here' s an epic Tarquin.

Spoiler

Show

Tarquin
Lawful Evil, Human male Villain (DSTP), level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word) or likely 21+ (see note 1)
Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, age) or likely dex 25 (see note 1)
Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Cha 16+ (higher than Nale, BRITF).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, likely combat reflexes (see note 1), likely Infinite Deflection (see note 1).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
Abilities: Evasion, Counter Charge, Soaring Throw.
Items: helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamered plate armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment.

Note 1: In #0925 and #0936 Tarquin catches two arrows shot by Haley. The best way to explain this is with the epic feat "Infinite Deflection". Technically the feat doesn't interact with the feat "Catch Arrow", but this falls under the kind of rules the Giant ignores in order to tell a story. Infinite Deflection is a epic feat which requires level 21+, combat reflexes and 25 dexterity.
Another interpretation is the Giant ignored the fact that "Catch Arrows" has a limit of once per round.
Hence this is a debated issue and gains the likely status in Tarquin's stat block.

So, how do people feel about this in action? I personally feel a second "lower" degree of likely in the form of maybe, but perhaps that can become too vague.

[TooSoon]

Yes, that's why she needs three castings of Telepathic Bond, not just two.

I think you might be missing the point here.

PS- I like your Tarquin stat block. In his case it's open ended enough that we can put the wording as a bit more vague. In V's case I think a flat "17+" or "17-20" is more appropriate.

[danielxcutter]

I'm like 99% sure Tarquin's build is Swordsage-based.

[Emanick]

How about Tarquin catching two arrows? I should check the old discussions, but I'm pretty sure we need to assume the Giant forget/didn't care that the epic unlimited deflect arrows doesn't RAW allow for unlimited catching arrows. Because they are different feats that modify the same base feat. I do think a lot of GM's allow this interaction, especially with Reflect Arrows also existing.
Edit: There is also this fight, in which Tarquin does a lot of hard to explain things. (Multiple attacks during other attacks, spinning Durkon, the catch and stab arrow.)

I am also thinking about how we can handle a future stat block. So here' s an epic Tarquin.

Spoiler

Show

Tarquin
Lawful Evil, Human male Villain (DSTP), level 16+ (unaffected by Holy Word) or likely 21+ (see note 1)
Str 16+ (can carry Nale).
Dex ~9 (no evidence, age) or likely dex 25 (see note 1)
Con ~9 (no evidence, age).
Int, Wis ~11 (no evidence, age).
Cha 16+ (higher than Nale, BRITF).
Age: 51+ (adventuring for 35 years).
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, likely combat reflexes (see note 1), likely Infinite Deflection (see note 1).
Skills: Speak Language: Drow Sign Language, Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
Abilities: Evasion, Counter Charge, Soaring Throw.
Items: helmet, two Rings of Regeneration, Ring of True Seeing, Glamered plate armor, mask that says "Nope" on it, Extra Strength Keoghtum Ointment.

Note 1: In #0925 and #0936 Tarquin catches two arrows shot by Haley. The best way to explain this is with the epic feat "Infinite Deflection". Technically the feat doesn't interact with the feat "Catch Arrow", but this falls under the kind of rules the Giant ignores in order to tell a story. Infinite Deflection is a epic feat which requires level 21+, combat reflexes and 25 dexterity.
Another interpretation is the Giant ignored the fact that "Catch Arrows" has a limit of once per round.
Hence this is a debated issue and gains the likely status in Tarquin's stat block.

So, how do people feel about this in action? I personally feel a second "lower" degree of likely in the form of maybe, but perhaps that can become too vague.

I think this is a good stat block - it has the appropriate mixture of ambiguity and detail, IMO. Maybe we can spoiler the note in order to keep it from cluttering up the OP?

I'm like 99% sure Tarquin's build is Swordsage-based.

Would you be able to provide the reasoning behind this? Being able to provide a "likely" class for Tarquin is an appealing idea; it'd be cool if we could demonstrate it.

[danielxcutter]

Would you be able to provide the reasoning behind this? Being able to provide a "likely" class for Tarquin is an appealing idea; it'd be cool if we could demonstrate it.

Tarquin:

• Has good Reflex and Will saves, and Evasion.
• Swordsages get their Wisdom to AC. That'd explain why he's ridiculously hard to hit if he starts going full on Total Defense, which happened in the first half of his fight with Elan as well as that other general from the Free City of Doom.
• Swordsage maneuvers cover a very large amount of his scenes; Charging Minotaur could be used to explain Tarquin managing to Bull Rush Haley out the window, one of the Mountain Hammer maneuvers for breaking things, and we already have some listed in his statblock already. We have the throw listed as Comet Throw, but it fits Ballista Throw much better; as it involves "spinning like a top". Oh, and unless Tarquin's at least level 22, he's not learning that from a feat or item.
• Swordsages only have medium BAB. Have you ever seen him make more than three attacks per turn?

Also I find it very unlikely that Tarquin and his gang are Epic. Everyone thinks "wow high level adventurers, they must be epic!" and uh... they should have totally pasted the Order then. The Order was half-dead and drained, and the Legion still didn't manage to kill them. And we see no indications of so much as 9th-level spells, let alone epic.

Now, before everyone says "but Malack has epic ECL! Clearly that means the Legion all are!", did we consider Durkula an epic threat? Did anyone think the frost giant clerics were? I doubt it. Vampires only have that high an LA because WotC hated monstrous PCs and/or had absolutely no idea how game balance worked for most of that edition. Their CR's only a +2 adjustment anyways.

And for the purposes of the story, these guys are NPCs. They'd function on CR, not ECL.

[DLcygnet]

Since there are 5 arrows in the final page, is it safe to assume Serini has a Repeating Crossbow and 5 attacks per round? I guess I'll be paying attention in the next round to whether she has to spend the full round reloading another 5 bolt case. Does 5 attacks per round mean she's at least level 26? Or Level 21+ with Rapid Shot? Or taking a penalty to hit....

[Emanick]

Since there are 5 arrows in the final page, is it safe to assume Serini has a Repeating Crossbow and 5 attacks per round? I guess I'll be paying attention in the next round to whether she has to spend the full round reloading another 5 bolt case. Does 5 attacks per round mean she's at least level 26? Or Level 21+ with Rapid Shot? Or taking a penalty to hit....

Level 21+ with Rapid Shot sounds the most likely to me. Taking a penalty to hit doesn't seem like an intelligent decision in the current situation, and Rich has described the Scribblers as "low epic."