Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Jasdoif]

Faith Feats are on the powerful side, and I guess the strong roleplay is prevent them from every player taking them. It falls in the bad game mechanics where power is balanced by not being fun to use.

They are a variant, and the book explicitly says they "may not be appropriate for every campaign". I'm reasonably sure the target audience is characters who aren't divine spellcasters yet nevertheless are dedicated to their religion/philosophy/etc., and are willing to spend a feat to tell the DM they're looking for the kind of roleplaying challenges that entails. Also I'm not entirely sure how much more powerful than other feats they are, but if I start digressing on a digression we're going to get lost


Because that seems like of an issue with the whole "likely" discussion, right now. If there's some of standard where "based on an oversight of a feature of established familiar rules to get around a change in the number of targets" is superior to "based on changing the number of targets" (based on degree of separation approximating likelihood of accident, perhaps); what would it say about "based on two sapient creatures appearing on a list of companions in a prestige class appearing in a splatbook that has the Giant as a coauthor, and needing nine levels to support multiple companions" which was already sufficient to get into a listing for Oona? If the objective standard includes things that have no in-comic evidence, only out-of-comic convenience, to support them....What does a subjective "likely" flag actually mean?

If the idea is have things marked "likely" if they fail to meet the objective standard yet are still widely believed to be true, it'd call for a declared objective standard to meet; otherwise we're just going to argue about where the implied subjective standard is after the arguing about what the objective standard is that already happens.

[TooSoon]

We knew V's caster level. If we assume all rules are in place then V demonstrates a new highest caster level of 21 in #1220, 118 comics later. Telepathic Bond affect the caster + 1 character per 3 caster levels. In order to hit the 5 other member of the order, Minrah and Blackwing, V needs a caster level of 21 (7*3). Blackwing cannot be treated as free by the share spell familiar ability because he keeps the spell even when he more then 5 feet away from V.

The fact it is unlikely (I daresay impossible by story logic) is the cause of all the discussion.

Spoiler: Sum up of theories

Show

No rules are broken, everything on panel. V affect 7 targets and has a caster level of 21. This leads to V having a character level of 20 and V has leveled up a lot since #1102.

No rules are broken, certain abilities are not visible on panel. V is character level 16 and found a new way to increase caster level 21. We can explain it with one feat: Pious Spellsurge, but there are other methods.

No rules are broken, but buffing happens off panel. A complex weave of three Telepathic Bonds are cast to allow everyone to talk with everyone. V requires a minimum of caster level 15.

One rule is broken, Blackwing keeps the spell despite moving 5 feet away from V. Everything else is on panel. V affect 6 targets and has a caster level of 18. This implies V has leveled up once since #1102 to level 17.

One rule is broken, the amount of targets affected by a buff spell. V caster and character level cannot be determined from this spell.

Or a combination of the above, to make it more complex.

And although I keep interacting with the discussion itself, we are also trying to have a meta discussion about how we deal with this kinds of problems. Currently these stalements prevent us from adding anything to characters. I saw that adding giant blobs of theories wasn't too liked, although it being my preference (and I keep trying to get it more condense). But I get having the statblocks as simple as possible. At the same time a simple description to V's statblock doesn't seem just when it causes this much discussion and confusion. Especially when we consider the most literal scenario is also the most unlikely scenario of V gaining 4 level in 118 comics.

So any more meta input?

I think there's a consensus for using the likely tag, with Xykon and Tarquin being 2 prime examples of where it should be used. I disagree we even need "likely" for V being level 17+, or level 17-20 (whichever you prefer), because the traditional standard of proof and the way we have used context and logic to assess that standard of proof should see V as level 17+ right now. It's a case of either RAW, in which case V is level 20, or RAW moderated by common sense (i.e. this spell was intended to show us V's caster level, but Rich forgot about the distance limit for BW), in which case V is level 17+. It's not analogous to the Durkon example for a number of reasons, the most important being multiple castings of the spell will not allow the spell to reach all party members with a single telepathic link, which the comic indicates they have. You can cast Telepathic Bond 50 times in any number of variations, and each link you forge on the party always has 1 member left out. In the case of Durkon casting Wind Walk multiple castings we didn't see solves it.

[InvisibleBison]

multiple castings of the spell will not allow the spell to reach all party members with a single telepathic link

Do you have a source for that? Because the text of the spell doesn't say that someone who is under the effect of multiple telepathic bonds can't communicate via all of them simultaneously.

which the comic indicates they have.

The comic indicates that all members of the party are able to communicate telepathically, but I don't think there's any panels/lines that are irrefutably being perceived by all of the party simultaneously.


I do agree that Vaarsuvius is probably 17th level by now, but I think you are overestimating the strength of the evidence.

[TooSoon]

Do you have a source for that? Because the text of the spell doesn't say that someone who is under the effect of multiple telepathic bonds can't communicate via all of them simultaneously.



The comic indicates that all members of the party are able to communicate telepathically, but I don't think there's any panels/lines that are irrefutably being perceived by all of the party simultaneously.


I do agree that Vaarsuvius is probably 17th level by now, but I think you are overestimating the strength of the evidence.

The only reason we didn't list Durkon as level 18 is because it was too preposterous. Otherwise he'd be level 18 when he cast wind walk. V being level 17 on the other hand is exactly what we've been expecting to happen any panel now.

I defer to the opinions of others for now, but there is nothing in the rules I know of that says Telepathic Bond connects one bond to another unrelated bond. They are separate bonds, like different coloured unconnected pieces of string. The comic refers to it as "our bond", and the characters all act as though they can all communicate with each other (and it would in fact be hugely disadvantageous to create a number of bonds where they could not). To my mind the evidence is clear for V to be listed as either level 17+ or level 17-20, depending on whether you want to apply common sense and handwaving to the BW screw up by Rich.

The default assumption is the rules work, unless there is a compelling reason to believe they are not, and we should interpret them as working as far as possible for the purposes of this thread. There was a compelling reason to believe Durkon wasn't level 18 yet. There is not such reason to assume V isn't level 17, and so we should apply the RAW as much as possible here. If we dismiss it because "Giant has shown they don't care", or "XYZ could be imagined to handwave it, and ABC has often been handwaved" then half the stats on this thread should be scrubbed on similar logic. Rich has shown they don't care about the rules lots of times. The point of this thread is to proceed as if they do unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

People on here are not addressing this, but if we went back and reverse engineered how the current stat blocks were formed then the standard of proof people are trying to apply to argue against V now would also nullify dozens of things we used to build the current stats. Remember when V cast mass enlarge person on those soldiers? Nobody would have had a problem using that as evidence of V's level. Nobody cared about using what appeared to be attacks per round as evidence of level, even when we know Rich has handwaved that before too. The standard of proof should be consistent to what it always has been (if not lower, since Rich is making it harder and harder to prove stuff, though that can hopefully be partly resolved by the "likely" tag).

[Yanisa]

I think there's a consensus for using the likely tag, with Xykon and Tarquin being 2 prime examples of where it should be used.

With Tarquin I ran into a similarly problem as the V discussion. The multiple Snatch Arrows fits really hard within the rules, and the best solutions require us to assume a rule is broken. Which then leads to multiple choice for which rule is broken.
There is some room for a likely swordsage, because of that spinning top maneuver. I don't know much about Path of War, but that seemed a good use of the likely tag.

Xykon is also another can of worms with multiple explanations, I haven't delved into, but there is already a paragraph in the FAQ of the first post.

The problem with all these is that there isn't "one" single likely answer that we are skipping because it doesn't fit 100%, or the evidence is weaker then we like. Instead there are multiple possibilities, each with pro's and cons. Whether a single person finds something likely or dismissible tends to be an opinion and we can't fit all opinions in a statblock. Unless you want a paragraph of explanations per character entry, but that didn't seem to gain favor. I am just looking for solution how we as a group want to deal with the multiple theories and how we use the likely tag to at least add something to a character block despite all the theories.

[TooSoon]

With Tarquin I ran into a similarly problem as the V discussion. The multiple Snatch Arrows fits really hard within the rules, and the best solutions require us to assume a rule is broken. Which then leads to multiple choice for which rule is broken.
There is some room for a likely swordsage, because of that spinning top maneuver. I don't know much about Path of War, but that seemed a good use of the likely tag.

Xykon is also another can of worms with multiple explanations, I haven't delved into, but there is already a paragraph in the FAQ of the first post.

The problem with all these is that there isn't "one" single likely answer that we are skipping because it doesn't fit 100%, or the evidence is weaker then we like. Instead there are multiple possibilities, each with pro's and cons. Whether a single person finds something likely or dismissible tends to be an opinion and we can't fit all opinions in a statblock. Unless you want a paragraph of explanations per character entry, but that didn't seem to gain favor. I am just looking for solution how we as a group want to deal with the multiple theories and how we use the likely tag to at least add something to a character block despite all the theories.

I agree that this is the bigger problem, beyond the fact we need to update a few stat blocks. Right now we're going off the decision a couple of people (at most) are making, and the standards they are using are not consistent from stat to stat. Nobody would have minded V using Mass Enlarge Person on 13 people as proof of V being level 13, and a demonstration of his caster level, but the exact same level of proof isn't being accepted by some people for V hitting level 17. Hey, maybe V cast Mass Enlarge Person twice? Or maybe V had an item to improve CL. Or maybe the rules were being handwaved. Nobody is making that argument, or using similar logic to nullify any of the old stats they like. Instead it is being used selectively to justify the arbitrary preferences of a handful of posters who "like" and "don't like" certain things being added. The same people who cite V having a 34 hour forcecage duration time as being good evidence of V being level 16 (with the plus 1 CL from the Ion Stone) are the ones saying CL effects on spells aren't valid for V's level 17 feat; yet V could just as easily have had a CL boosting item, or a preposterous feat like "Pious Spellsurge" (a reach if I ever heard it) to boost forcecage… but nobody is making those arguments. It's transparently not even handed.

As near as I can tell, what people "don't like" in the case of Xykon/Tarquin/V has nothing whatever to do about objective standards of proof, and everything to do with personal preferences like "I personally don't like the idea of Tarquin being Epic" or "I personally dislike being Xykon being so much higher than the order", or "I personally think that the standard of proof should be higher for V to access level 9 spells". I don't know what the solution to the bigger problem is, maybe appoint a dozen posters who are experts to make decisions when presented with evidence, but it isn't what is currently being done.

[danielxcutter]

With Tarquin I ran into a similarly problem as the V discussion. The multiple Snatch Arrows fits really hard within the rules, and the best solutions require us to assume a rule is broken. Which then leads to multiple choice for which rule is broken.
There is some room for a likely swordsage, because of that spinning top maneuver. I don't know much about Path of War, but that seemed a good use of the likely tag.

Xykon is also another can of worms with multiple explanations, I haven't delved into, but there is already a paragraph in the FAQ of the first post.

The problem with all these is that there isn't "one" single likely answer that we are skipping because it doesn't fit 100%, or the evidence is weaker then we like. Instead there are multiple possibilities, each with pro's and cons. Whether a single person finds something likely or dismissible tends to be an opinion and we can't fit all opinions in a statblock. Unless you want a paragraph of explanations per character entry, but that didn't seem to gain favor. I am just looking for solution how we as a group want to deal with the multiple theories and how we use the likely tag to at least add something to a character block despite all the theories.

Path of War is irrelevant here. This is 3.5e, not PF. What you're looking for is Tome of Battle.

[Yanisa]

Path of War is irrelevant here. This is 3.5e, not PF. What you're looking for is Tome of Battle.

Shows how much I know.

I agree that this is the bigger problem, beyond the fact we need to update a few stat blocks. Right now we're going off the decision a couple of people (at most) are making, and the standards they are using are not consistent from stat to stat. Nobody would have minded V using Mass Enlarge Person on 13 people as proof of V being level 13, and a demonstration of his caster level, but the exact same level of proof isn't being accepted by some people for V hitting level 17. Hey, maybe V cast Mass Enlarge Person twice? Or maybe V had an item to improve CL. Or maybe the rules were being handwaved. Nobody is making that argument, or using similar logic to nullify any of the old stats they like. Instead it is being used selectively to justify the arbitrary preferences of a handful of posters who "like" and "don't like" certain things being added. The same people who cite V having a 34 hour forcecage duration time as being good evidence of V being level 16 (with the plus 1 CL from the Ion Stone) are the ones saying CL effects on spells aren't valid for V's level 17 feat; yet V could just as easily have had a CL boosting item, or a preposterous feat like "Pious Spellsurge" (a reach if I ever heard it) to boost forcecage… but nobody is making those arguments. It's transparently not even handed.

As near as I can tell, what people "don't like" in the case of Xykon/Tarquin/V has nothing whatever to do about objective standards of proof, and everything to do with personal preferences like "I personally don't like the idea of Tarquin being Epic" or "I personally dislike being Xykon being so much higher than the order", or "I personally think that the standard of proof should be higher for V to access level 9 spells". I don't know what the solution to the bigger problem is, maybe appoint a dozen posters who are experts to make decisions when presented with evidence, but it isn't what is currently being done.

Neither the Pikeman scene, or the Forcecage scenes are the moments we use to determine V's level. They are both confirmations of a level up that was already demonstrated earlier in the comic. The forcecage is being linked because it is easier than the complicated math post based on amount of spells V casted. Nothing in the Pikeman scene or Forcecage scene is impossible based on what we saw in the comic before. We are using different proofs of standards here because they are different scenario's. Telepathic Bond's caster level is being used as the proof of a level up, instead of the confirmation for an earlier level up.
Maybe there is a time we have used caster level for a level up? Then you can disregard this point. I can't check all level ups because I need to get back to work.

Besides that, the most literal by the books RAW interpretation of Telepathic Bonds requires us to assume V is at least level 20. Like Durkon being level 18, this is highly implausible. Because of that we are looking for alternative solutions. The same applies to Tarquin and Xykon, people find the level implausible high with the story and thus demand greater proof, or alternative scenario's. Yeah, that is partly based on people interpretation of the story, but the fact there are alternative scenario's means we cannot reach a likely consensus. In the case of Xykon I believe it had to do with the fact a mid level Roy defeated him. In the case of Tarquin it's that Tarquin never showed anything truly epic.

[TooSoon]

Shows how much I know.



Neither the Pikeman scene, or the Forcecage scenes are the moments we use to determine V's level. They are both confirmations of a level up that was already demonstrated earlier in the comic. The forcecage is being linked because it is easier than the complicated math post based on amount of spells V casted. Nothing in the Pikeman scene or Forcecage scene is impossible based on what we saw in the comic before. We are using different proofs of standards here because they are different scenario's. Telepathic Bond's caster level is being used as the proof of a level up, instead of the confirmation for an earlier level up.
Maybe there is a time we have used caster level for a level up? Then you can disregard this point. I can't check all level ups because I need to get back to work.

Besides that, the most literal by the books RAW interpretation of Telepathic Bonds requires us to assume V is at least level 20. Like Durkon being level 18, this is highly implausible. Because of that we are looking for alternative solutions. The same applies to Tarquin and Xykon, people find the level implausible high with the story and thus demand greater proof, or alternative scenario's. Yeah, that is partly based on people interpretation of the story, but the fact there are alternative scenario's means we cannot reach a likely consensus. In the case of Xykon I believe it had to do with the fact a mid level Roy defeated him. In the case of Tarquin it's that Tarquin never showed anything truly epic.

I realise that we did not technically use those 2 instances to assess the level, there are other examples where we did though, but I chose those 2 examples because they totally analogous and nobody would have questioned if the level was assessed based on them. In addition, I have seen posters disagreeing with me cite the forcecage feat as evidence of V being level 16 (and I pointed out to them that it was not what we used, and they basically said "that was the real proof though").

[Jasdoif]

The problem with all these is that there isn't "one" single likely answer that we are skipping because it doesn't fit 100%, or the evidence is weaker then we like. Instead there are multiple possibilities, each with pro's and cons. Whether a single person finds something likely or dismissible tends to be an opinion and we can't fit all opinions in a statblock. Unless you want a paragraph of explanations per character entry, but that didn't seem to gain favor. I am just looking for solution how we as a group want to deal with the multiple theories and how we use the likely tag to at least add something to a character block despite all the theories.

Offhand, this type of situation (measuring subjective approval across multiple independent options) is well suited for approval voting; perhaps each competing theory would have a post dedicated to describing it, and the most approved theory is included in the opening posts and the word "likely" is linked to the corresponding post...but I'd hate to (try to) sign Kurald Galain up for the additional work that holding votes would entail o_o

[b_jonas]

Nobody would have minded V using Mass Enlarge Person on 13 people as proof of V being level 13,

That is not similar to this situation. You can see in #427, especially 9th panel, that Mass Enlarge Person had to be cast at just the right moment. It happened real time in combat, with an army of hobgoblin soldiers marching towards them. Vaarsuvius spending two rounds to cast the spell wouldn't have been free, unlike in #1220 where Vaarsuvius did have the free time for that. In addition, Vaarsuvius specifically asked for only 13 soldiers to the gap in the wall (2nd panel), clearly she didn't just want to cast the spell twice on 12 targets each but called for 13 instead of 24 soldiers on a whim.

That sounds extravagant but maybe she doesn’t have a 9th level spell in her spell book.

I'll ignore wish because it's expensive to cast, but the same #49 mentions Meteor Swarm and Time Stop, she almost certainly has Bugsby's Crushing Hand. More importantly, when a Wizard first reaches the level that lets them cast a higher level of spells, they get to learn two free spells of that level as a class feature.

Anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if Vaarsuvius was already level 17 and could cast 9th level spells, she just wasn't in a situation where it's worth to cast them yet. No need to spend them while she was just scouting ahead or traveling on the airship. I just don't think #1220 is enough proof. With some action scenes probably coming up now, we might soon see Vaarsuvius break out her high level spells, and we may find out about her level from the number of spells she casts.

[danielxcutter]

I think that was back in the ages when nothing was really set in stone, and also can you scribe spells you can't cast?

[Gurgeh]

Spellbooks

A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

So: no, there's nothing to say a wizard can't put higher-level spells into their spellbook. Personally I feel that V's calling those out is more likely a case of exasperation due to Z's intransigence, and that they don't have any of those spells in their spellbook (if only because it raises the question of who V would have gotten the spells from), but I'm pretty sure that it would have been entirely possible, mechanically speaking.

[b_jonas]

I think that was back in the ages when nothing was really set in stone, and also can you scribe spells you can't cast?

It was long ago, but the OotS universe sticks to everything those old canon strips said, see eg. Giant's Q&A 2020-02 on Patreon, question 17 about the elven gods.

As for what spells Vaarsuvius can scribe into her spellbook, as far as I understand, the only hard requirements are that it's a wizard spell, not from her barred schools, and she has enough intelligence. That probably means that she couldn't scribe Vampiric Touch now, because that's a Necromancy spell and that's one of her barred schools. I'm not going to try to understand rules of previous editions to tell if she could have written that spell before #1. Oh, and Vaarsuvius had 18 intelligence back then, so she also wasn't allowed to scribe level 9 spells like Meteor Swarm, Time Stop, Wish. She probably has at least 19 intelligence now though (update: she already did, because her headband raises her intelligence). I also think I misrepresented the rule about the free spells. It says “At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.”

[DLcygnet]

Iterative attacks explicitly only go up based on your BAB up to level 20, so being level 21 or 26 or even 2000 wouldn’t give you a single extra.

Of course, Serini might have a Haste buff going on or the crossbow might have a Speed enchantment. Maybe she has Hand Crossbow Focus as well.

Hmm... Then perhaps she has Manyshot and Improved Manyshot? It sounds like that would give her the base 3 attacks at level 20, plus at least 2 extra. The way I read it (max 4 extra arrows, especially with Point Blank Shot boosting her BAB to 21), she COULD have up 7 attacks, but she's limited by the capacity of her crossbow.

Separate: Can we assume she has Mounted Combat? Or is every shot missing Haley because she doesn't?

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... Then perhaps she has Manyshot and Improved Manyshot? It sounds like that would give her the base 3 attacks at level 20, plus at least 2 extra. The way I read it (max 4 extra arrows, especially with Point Blank Shot boosting her BAB to 21), she COULD have up 7 attacks, but she's limited by the capacity of her crossbow.

Separate: Can we assume she has Mounted Combat? Or is every shot missing Haley because she doesn't?

There are actually so many degrees of wrong to this that it's not even amusing, but to be fair 3.5e rules are weird and the .5 update really had a hate-boner for archery because Martials Can't Have Nice Things. You can't use crossbows for Multishot, whenever we see Haley use it it's all at once rather than a series of shots, you'd need an insanely high level to qualify for it as a rogue, Manyshot is a standard action that's mutually incompatible with making full attacks, and Point Blank Shot doesn't boost BAB so I have no idea what you mean about that.

[DLcygnet]

There are actually so many degrees of wrong to this that it's not even amusing, but to be fair 3.5e rules are weird and the .5 update really had a hate-boner for archery because Martials Can't Have Nice Things. You can't use crossbows for Multishot, whenever we see Haley use it it's all at once rather than a series of shots, you'd need an insanely high level to qualify for it as a rogue, Manyshot is a standard action that's mutually incompatible with making full attacks, and Point Blank Shot doesn't boost BAB so I have no idea what you mean about that.

Ah phooey. Bolts, not arrows, in a crossbow. And Point Blank Shot said +1 to Attack - I must've liberally interpreted as BAB. Ok. Fine. Then perhaps Instant Reload plus Rapid Shot (non-specific ranged weapon) and Blinding Speed... otherwise I have more homework to do on where her 4th and 5th shots are coming from since none of the usual feats apply to crossbows. Haley isn't in melee, so Opportunist doesn't apply. Crossbow Expert? Wand of Haste (instead of invisibility or teleport)? Troll levels? Multi-class? Unfortunately, to have two Epic feats means she would be level 28 and that seems unlikely for a hermit. So maybe she has Rapid Reload, a light crossbow, and is level 24?

[danielxcutter]

Ah phooey. Bolts, not arrows, in a crossbow. And Point Blank Shot said +1 to Attack - I must've liberally interpreted as BAB. Ok. Fine. Then perhaps Instant Reload plus Rapid Shot (non-specific ranged weapon) and Blinding Speed... otherwise I have more homework to do on where her 4th and 5th shots are coming from since none of the usual feats apply to crossbows. Haley isn't in melee, so Opportunist doesn't apply. Crossbow Expert? Wand of Haste (instead of invisibility or teleport)? Troll levels? Multi-class? Unfortunately, to have two Epic feats means she would be level 28 and that seems unlikely for a hermit. So maybe she has Rapid Reload, a light crossbow, and is level 24?

First of all, Instant Reload doesn't do anything except for heavy crossbows. Second, the easiest explanation is that she has Rapid Reload(hand crossbow) or more likely Hand Crossbow Focus, and either her weapon has the Speed enchantment or she's got a Haste effect up.

[DLcygnet]

First of all, Instant Reload doesn't do anything except for heavy crossbows. Second, the easiest explanation is that she has Rapid Reload(hand crossbow) or more likely Hand Crossbow Focus, and either her weapon has the Speed enchantment or she's got a Haste effect up.

GREAT! That's what I'm looking for. Hand Crossbow Focus sounds optional (not a prerequisite) since rogues are proficient with hand crossbows and extra attack bonus isn't necessary; but Rapid Shot (Point Blank Shot prerequisite), Rapid Reload (Hand Crossbow Proficiency prerequisite), and an 18,000 gp weapon enchantment means her lowest conceivable rogue level is 16, right? 3 attacks base as early as level 15, 2 attacks from feats (swapped for 3 special abilities attained by 16). Right now the list assumes Rogue 21+ due to the low epic comment from Rob, but some of that may come from a troll (+5 levels) or half-troll template (+?).

[Riftwolf]

but some of that may come from a troll (+5 levels) or half-troll template (+?).

She was low-epic before the troll blood. If anything, the troll blood graft would have stumped a hefty level adjustment on top of that, meaning levels-wise she's stuck where she is, to put it simply. It wouldn't have added racial HD (as it didn't fully turn her into a troll) and claiming the half-troll template right now seems premature, as beyond regeneration Serini hasn't shown any of the other effects of that template.

Just as a thought; Serini has one eye Halfling and one eye trollish, and her goggles have different coloured lenses. Trolls have dark vision, so is it possible she only has darkvision in one eye and relies on the goggles to have binocular vision on darkness?

[Anarchic Fox]

V forming the telepathic link should have been sufficient proof that he had reached level 17. Instead results based reasoning has led to it being ignored. Well, maybe Rich screwed up or is hand waving the distance requirement with Blackwing. I'd rather take the explanation that only requires us handwaving that, not also handwaving the number of people the caster can effect per RAW. Then you're breaking 2 rules, not 1.

Varsuvius: Wizard 16, Rogue 1. After the Xykon fiasco, they realized that they desperately needed more Concentration and Move Silently, and spent the roleplaying level gained from the event on Rogue. With their enormous Int bonus, V ended up with a copious supply of skill points to spend on rounding out their build.

...Why are y'all looking at me like that?

[TooSoon]

Varsuvius: Wizard 16, Rogue 1. After the Xykon fiasco, they realized that they desperately needed more Concentration and Move Silently, and spent the roleplaying level gained from the event on Rogue. With their enormous Int bonus, V ended up with a copious supply of skill points to spend on rounding out their build.

...Why are y'all looking at me like that?

Silliness aside, levels in Rogue can't provide you with extra caster levels.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure the joke's about UMD.

[Anarchic Fox]

Silliness aside, levels in Rogue can't provide you with extra caster levels.

...Caster level? Oh. I see. Ah well, an accidental OotS homage was better than the joke I intended. Vaarsuvius: Wizard 16, Archmage 1, anyone?

Back on topic, put me in the "V has an extra magical item we don't know about" camp. Maybe she has Rings of Wizardry on both hands, not just one. (I think there's a ring that raises caster level, but I'm not going to look it up.) Also, I'd like to take a moment to point out that #1236 provides incontrovertible evidence that Elan has skill ranks in Profession (Chef), presumably learned from Belkar.

[TooSoon]

...Caster level? Oh. I see. Ah well, an accidental OotS homage was better than the joke I intended. Vaarsuvius: Wizard 16, Archmage 1, anyone?

Back on topic, put me in the "V has an extra magical item we don't know about" camp. Maybe she has Rings of Wizardry on both hands, not just one. (I think there's a ring that raises caster level, but I'm not going to look it up.) Also, I'd like to take a moment to point out that #1236 provides incontrovertible evidence that Elan has skill ranks in Profession (Chef), presumably learned from Belkar.

Archmage is a prestige class. It doesn't functionally impede V's level growth at all, I think it would be quite cool V is taking archmage levels, but we haven't seen any proof of this so you assume V is getting increases to CL in the normal way. If we use these "could have been unseen item XYZ" explanations none of the existing stat blocks for any character will really hold up well.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think Archmage does anything for that(though it's been a while so I may very well be wrong), also neither do Rings of Wizardry.

[TooSoon]

I don't think Archmage does anything for that(though it's been a while so I may very well be wrong), also neither do Rings of Wizardry.

Actually one of the Archmage skills you get allows you to get a CL boost of 1 level (to a limited degree). It's a no-brainer prestige class for V to take frankly, losing almost nothing and gaining a new cheat ability like that for every new level. Mastery of Elements and Arcane Reach are fabulous choices too.

[danielxcutter]

Actually one of the Archmage skills you get allows you to get a CL boost of 1 level (to a limited degree). It's a no-brainer prestige class for V to take frankly, losing almost nothing and gaining a new cheat ability like that for every new level. Mastery of Elements and Arcane Reach are fabulous choices too.

Blowing a slot isn't a no-brainer for a CL boost, I think, and by RAW you're incapable of learning new spells by progressing in it IIRC.

[hamishspence]

Blowing a slot isn't a no-brainer for a CL boost, I think, and by RAW you're incapable of learning new spells by progressing in it IIRC.

I believe you're thinking of Hierophant, the divine caster equivalent.

Archmage:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

[danielxcutter]

I think a few early-game PrCs are weird like that. EKs can't learn spells that's for sure. Also maybe the SRD changed that, I dunno.