Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Gurgeh]

EDIT: the DMG spellcasting PrCs are weird that way - by the rulebook text, EK only advances spells per day and caster level, while Archmage only advances spells per day and spells known. Loremaster advances all three (spells known, spells per day, and caster level).

It's extremely unlikely that these classes were meant to be such a dog's breakfast of advancement, especially since some of those barely give any value at all; I'm surprised it hasn't been changed by errata.

[danielxcutter]

EDIT: the DMG spellcasting PrCs are weird that way - by the rulebook text, EK only advances spells per day and caster level, while Archmage only advances spells per day and spells known. Loremaster advances all three (spells known, spells per day, and caster level).

It's extremely unlikely that these classes were meant to be such a dog's breakfast of advancement, especially since some of those barely give any value at all; I'm surprised it hasn't been changed by errata.

Probably intentional, actually, because “oh no, martials getting casting? We can’t let that happen!” Or some other kind of weird attempt at balancing it. I remember hearing a theory about that but can’t remember who or what.

[Reboot]

So: no, there's nothing to say a wizard can't put higher-level spells into their spellbook. Personally I feel that V's calling those out is more likely a case of exasperation due to Z's intransigence, and that they don't have any of those spells in their spellbook (if only because it raises the question of who V would have gotten the spells from), but I'm pretty sure that it would have been entirely possible, mechanically speaking.

It would probably have been possible, but it would have been incredibly expensive, page-consuming and time-consuming to put a 9th level spell in hir spellbook. Doubly so when V couldn't even use it. I agree that it was probably V throwing out ludicrous stuff to try and get a reaction.

(For the same reason, Z would have been pretty dumb to take the deal if it was for real. The costs would outweigh the benefits for far, far too long.)

[b_jonas]

For most wizards, putting 9th level spells would be a waste, sure. But Vaarusvius's ambition all her life was to “achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power”. With that in mind, she would totally put ninth level spells in her spellbook. (Still not ones from her banned schools of course.)

[hamishspence]

EDIT: the DMG spellcasting PrCs are weird that way - by the rulebook text, EK only advances spells per day and caster level, while Archmage only advances spells per day and spells known. Loremaster advances all three (spells known, spells per day, and caster level).

I'm pretty sure all sample archmages have a listed caster level that includes their caster level added to their wizard levels if they're a wizard, or sorcerer levels if they're a sorcerer.

Maybe there's an errata or FAQ that clarifies this?

The 3.0 version certainly had the appropriate phrase :

"This essentially means that she adds the level of archmage to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly".

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure all sample archmages have a listed caster level that includes their caster level added to their wizard levels if they're a wizard, or sorcerer levels if they're a sorcerer.

Maybe there's an errata or FAQ that clarifies this?

The 3.0 version certainly had the appropriate phrase :

"This essentially means that she adds the level of archmage to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly".

I'm pretty sure everyone either forgot that part exists or willingly ignores it, and for good reason.

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure everyone either forgot that part exists or willingly ignores it, and for good reason.

Are you arguing that the 3.5 rules for archmage fixed it by preventing it from advancing caster level?

Or are you going with "anything that increases spells per day as if you'd taken an extra character level, increases caster level"?

It would be a bit silly IMO, for a 13th level wizard/5th level archmage, who has taken 5 High arcana that aren't CL increases, to be stuck with CL 13.

Regarding the Eldritch Knight, I notice that all PRCs in later books which advance casting (whether partially or fully), advance both spells per day and spells known.

[danielxcutter]

Are you arguing that the 3.5 rules for archmage fixed it by preventing it from advancing caster level?

Or are you going with "anything that increases spells per day as if you'd taken an extra character level, increases caster level"?

It would be a bit silly IMO, for a 13th level wizard/5th level archmage, who has taken 5 High arcana that aren't CL increases, to be stuck with CL 13.

Regarding the Eldritch Knight, I notice that all PRCs in later books which advance casting (whether partially or fully), advance both spells per day and spells known.

I'm saying that I remember someone in a conversation mentioning their suspicions that these were part of an extremely misguided attempt to "balance" these PrCs and did a crap job of it.

[hamishspence]

I'd go with "botched copy-pasting job".

[Anarchic Fox]

Actually one of the Archmage skills you get allows you to get a CL boost of 1 level (to a limited degree). It's a no-brainer prestige class for V to take frankly, losing almost nothing and gaining a new cheat ability like that for every new level. Mastery of Elements and Arcane Reach are fabulous choices too.

V is willing to spend a feat on Improved Counterspell, the most situational of all situational metamagic. So yes, I think V is willing to take a prestigious prestige class instead of beelining for Time Stop.

Blowing a slot isn't a no-brainer for a CL boost, I think, and by RAW you're incapable of learning new spells by progressing in it IIRC.

Which solves the problem of "how can V link the entire party via telepathy yet not cast Time Stop," when you take a moment to think about it.

(For the same reason, Z would have been pretty dumb to take the deal if it was for real. The costs would outweigh the benefits for far, far too long.)

Why, exactly, would natural-18-Int V use a long-term cost-benefit analysis when the world is slated to end (or maybe not end) as soon as a new table arrives from the nearest forest?

[TooSoon]

V is willing to spend a feat on Improved Counterspell, the most situational of all situational metamagic. So yes, I think V is willing to take a prestigious prestige class instead of beelining for Time Stop.



Which solves the problem of "how can V link the entire party via telepathy yet not cast Time Stop," when you take a moment to think about it.



Why, exactly, would natural-18-Int V use a long-term cost-benefit analysis when the world is slated to end (or maybe not end) as soon as a new table arrives from the nearest forest?

Yeh, I disagree with people saying Archmage isn't worth it. The spell slots you are giving up are trivial considering the powers you gain in return, especially for a specialist. If V took arcane reach they could employ cheap spells like imprisonment from 30 feet away for the cost of a 7th level spell slot. V has 3 more of those left at level 17. Mastery of Elements is similarly well worth the 8th level spell slot. Spell power to boost CL by 1 is a mere 5th level slot. I dunno if Arcane Fire would be worth it, only because I'm not sure how many times you get to case Arcane Fire in exchange for the 9th level spell slot. Is it once per day? If so, pass.

[El Dorado]

From strip 1240, Elan has ranks in Perform (oratory)?

[b_jonas]

El Dorado: Sunny's reaction doesn't seem more impressive than the soldier's reaction when Elan gave a speech in #421. I don't see why either of them would require ranks in the skill, it could be an improvised check based on just his Charisma bonus. Oh, and Elan has a magical Belt of charisma now.

[danielxcutter]

Stat-only checks tend to be really hard to make though.

[Rogan]

Oh, and Elan has a magical Belt of charisma now.

Which should be suppressed inside the AMF. So he can't use this, right?

[InvisibleBison]

From strip 1240, Elan has ranks in Perform (oratory)?

Perform (oratory) doesn't let you persuade people to do things. This was probably a Bluff check.

[danielxcutter]

Or Diplomacy maybe?

Also Elan's belt is only +2, which is a +1 bonus to Cha-based checks. That really isn't much.

[b_jonas]

Which should be suppressed inside the AMF. So he can't use this, right?

Oh… probably. I don't really know the rules there. You have a point.

[Reboot]

Why, exactly, would natural-18-Int V use a long-term cost-benefit analysis when the world is slated to end (or maybe not end) as soon as a new table arrives from the nearest forest?

Well, for one thing, they had no idea whatsoever about Gates, Godsmoots or dwarfen Councils at the point we're talking about.

Perform (oratory) doesn't let you persuade people to do things. This was probably a Bluff check.

But Elan has no bluff skills, his attempts usually endanger his life in new and exciting ways.

[DLcygnet]

But Elan has no bluff skills, his attempts usually endanger his life in new and exciting ways.

But he's a Dashing Swordsman. If this wiki entry is correct, then he should have at least 9 ranks in bluff (and a few other skills). But for the purposes of this thread, the Dashing Swordsman template falls outside of the DnD reference manuals (Burlew Homebrew?) and is perhaps considered inadmissible? Either way, with an anti-magic field up, some basic skills and extraordinary abilities would sure come in handy right about now.

[Peelee]

But he's a Dashing Swordsman. If this wiki entry is correct

Spoiler warning, it's not.

The Dashing Swordsman class does not come from any official D&D sourcebook, but was made up by Rich Burlew specifically for the comic. However, some fans have since made their renditions of it as a homebrew prestige class.

[Reboot]

But he's a Dashing Swordsman. If this wiki entry is correct, then he should have at least 9 ranks in bluff (and a few other skills). But for the purposes of this thread, the Dashing Swordsman template falls outside of the DnD reference manuals (Burlew Homebrew?) and is perhaps considered inadmissible? Either way, with an anti-magic field up, some basic skills and extraordinary abilities would sure come in handy right about now.

It's not correct. It's someone's idea of what the PrC would look like, only slightly based on (pretty scanty) in-comic evidence. In particular, there is zero indication in-comic that bluff is a prerequisite or class skill for the Dashing Swordsman - the only evidence is a repudiation of the idea, since Haley said Elan can't Bluff.

(Honestly, I'd put Bluff 0 in Elan's statblock based on that. I thought it was there already, TBH...)

[Mike Havran]

Maybe Elan also took Craft Disturbing Mental Image as a feat?

[DLcygnet]

the only evidence is a repudiation of the idea, since Haley said Elan can't Bluff.

(Honestly, I'd put Bluff 0 in Elan's statblock based on that. I thought it was there already, TBH...)

It seems like multiple strips are at odds with each other. Bluff is a charisma based stat - assuming a +5 Charisma bonus after leveling a couple times (+6 with belt?), Elan should be able to bluff just fine on occasion, even if he only put 1 rank in the skill - especially if somebody is inclined to believe him (after all, everything he said to the Order and Sunny IS true).

[MultitudeMan]

It seems like multiple strips are at odds with each other. Bluff is a charisma based stat - assuming a +5 Charisma bonus after leveling a couple times (+6 with belt?), Elan should be able to bluff just fine on occasion, even if he only put 1 rank in the skill - especially if somebody is inclined to believe him (after all, everything he said to the Order and Sunny IS true).

I'm not convinced that Elan's speech in #1187 counts as a Bluff. If he believes what he is saying is true, and wants the others to believe it too, then I think it would count as Diplomacy. I agree that convincing Sunny to blink is more like a Bluff, but I rather like the idea of it being a Performance.

[Mike Havran]

It seems like multiple strips are at odds with each other. Bluff is a charisma based stat - assuming a +5 Charisma bonus after leveling a couple times (+6 with belt?), Elan should be able to bluff just fine on occasion, even if he only put 1 rank in the skill - especially if somebody is inclined to believe him (after all, everything he said to the Order and Sunny IS true).

I think he does have ranks in Bluff, it's just that Elan often formulates his bluffs in such idiotic manner that the opposing party gets big circumstance bonus to their Sense Motive check.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, saying something like "I am the moon!" is the kind of thing that gives you a -20 penalty.

[Kurald Galain]

Added,

Heroism
track-covering powder
rat skull
Run feat instead of Endurance. Are we actually sure Roy wasn't Fatigued on those days after we saw him sleep in his armor? I mean, he doesn't look like sleep-deprived Vaarsuvius, but V was plausibly Exhausted at that point (a worse condition than Fatigue).
Knowledge planes, light spell, and an unspecified way to boost their caster level

Gontor: deceased

Serini: bluff, craft, and UMD skills; Rapid Reload + Rapid Shot feat; troll graft; instant magic pot; crossbow, staff, wand of Dimdoor, goggles, pouch, blowgun with poison darts.

[Kerching]

rat skull

Its actually an osquip head

[Yxylu]

Its actually an osquip head

And his name is Quippie. Have some respect!