Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[DLcygnet]

Added,
Serini: bluff, craft, and UMD skills; Rapid Reload + Rapid Shot feat; troll graft; instant magic pot; crossbow, staff, wand of Dimdoor, goggles, pouch, blowgun with poison darts.

Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for rapid shot.

EDIT 1: Also, Telepathic Bond can be added to V's spell list. By the way, instead of adding an unspecified spell level boost - wouldn't it just be easier to assume Blackwing is a BOGO and doesn't count for the purposes of casting Telepathic bond? So V only needs to be level 15 to cast the spell on everybody (5 party members), not 18.
EDIT 3: 6 party members (forgot Minrah). Whoops! Maybe V really is level 17.

EDIT 2: Actually, it's specified under the familiar section.

"Share Spells

At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast)."

[dancrilis]

Knowledge planes, light spell, and an unspecified way to boost their caster level

If we are including this I think this might be better to either include it under abilities rather then items - but better again might be to note it beside Telepathic Bond.

EDIT: Also, Telepathic Bond can be added to V's spell list. By the way, instead of adding an unspecified spell level boost - wouldn't it just be easier to assume Blackwing is a BOGO and doesn't count for the purposes of casting Telepathic bond? Which means V only needs to be level 15 to cast the spell on everybody (not 18).

Without Blackwing they still need to be level 18 to cover six people plus themselves - it is 21 with Blackwing.

For including the spell Telepathic Bond we might put brackets beside it saying 'maybe custom' we know that Vaarsuvius has researched spells in the past and we know that custom spells often are called by the same names as standard spells within speech bubbles so it seems the easiest answer rather then caster level boosts.

[Jasdoif]

(5 party members)

1. Roy
2. Haley
3. Durkon
4. Belkar
5. Elan
6. Minrah

[b_jonas]

[…] and an unspecified way to boost their caster level

That might be going too far, even if you believe that she targeted six other characters, because she might have either that or just be a wizard 17.

And yes, Jasdoif and dancrillis are right, it's clearly Vaarsuvius plus Blackwing plus 6 other characters who got the telepathy, regardless of whether Minrah is a member of the Order.

[TooSoon]

That might be going too far, even if you believe that she targeted six other characters, because she might have either that or just be a wizard 17.

And yes, Jasdoif and dancrillis are right, it's clearly Vaarsuvius plus Blackwing plus 6 other characters who got the telepathy, regardless of whether Minrah is a member of the Order.

See this is what annoys me. Reading the last 5-10 pages it seems clear to me that a consensus had formed to at the least list V as "likely level 17+", along with a bunch of other wider stat changes and likely tags, though frankly in V's case even the likely isn't needed (or consistent with the standard of proof of this thread). Instead 1 guy, because he's the gatekeeper of the thread, just announces what he's going to do with no interaction with any of the many posters who voiced opinions that were frankly all different to his. Did even a single person say "hey, let's list it as "an unspecified item that gives a CL boost"? I don't remember seeing that at all. There has to be a new way of doing things on this thread.

Not only is the choice of an item that gives a CL boost ignoring all of the many posters who discussed this, it's also the worst of every possible explanation discussed. If V had such an item why wouldn't the forcecage have had a longer duration too? You're now talking about V, by RAW, obtaining an item that provides a 1-4 level CL boost that must have been done off panel (despite no real chance to do so since the forcecage). I also don't think an item that gives a 4 CL boost even exists does it? At any rate, it's far less likely and more speculative than the answer Occam's razor would give us; that V has done what we have all expected him to do for a long time, hit level 17. It would be more surprising if V had not hit level 17, given all the stuff V has done since they were first known to be level 16 about 400 comic strips ago. More to the point, this underlines the inconsistent standards being applied. There is no "likely" tag next to the "unspecified item" entry, even though it's utterly speculative, yet for the much stronger claim V is level 17 some people think we do need a likely tag? Where is the consistency? There is none.

NB- I'd rather we said BW was a BOGO, or handwaved that part of it, to use it as the long awaited evidence that confirms what most of us already are sure of; that V has hit level 17. If people want to be rules sticklers though let's just list it as "level 17-20" as discussed.

[dancrilis]

Reading the last 5-10 pages it seems clear to me that a consensus had formed to at the least list V as "likely level 17+"

I don't believe that there is any such consensus.

In fact multiple other options were given - including that you can speak across multiple bonds at once and that three castings of a 5th level spell was used which in no way requires a higher caster level to be assumed at all.

[TooSoon]

I don't believe that there is any such consensus.

In fact multiple other options were given - including that you can speak across multiple bonds at once and that three castings of a 5th level spell was used which in no way requires a higher caster level to be assumed at all.

Aside from the fact we didn't see it, there is no evidence the spell can even work that way. Be fair dude, not one person here was arguing that "an unspecified item that increases CL" was the way to resolve this, no matter how you feel the majority was leaning.

[Peelee]

Frankly, 17 seems comically low for V. Not only did they use Plane Shift as early as strip #3, but they were even able to do it in reverse, which is significantly more powerful, and would almost certainly require a custom-made spell that would be much higher level. I think this clearly indicates that V has been epic level since the comic began.

[TooSoon]

Frankly, 17 seems comically low for V. Not only did they use Plane Shift as early as strip #3, but they were even able to do it in reverse, which is significantly more powerful, and would almost certainly require a custom-made spell that would be much higher level. I think this clearly indicates that V has been epic level since the comic began.

17 seems low given the day V hit level 16 began 400 strips ago (almost a 3rd of the comic), and since then they've had the adventures in the Pyramid, fought Tarquin's army and friends, fought crazy strong frost giants, overcome a horde of vampires with high CRs and adjusted levels, a Gated worm monster with an 18 CR or more that barfs out 9th level spells, and so on. However I'll settle for 17+ as the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence shown. If they defeat Serini and the Beyonder that alone will have me thinking that V has levelled again, though I'll wait for the proof obviously.

[Peelee]

17 seems low given the day V hit level 16 began 400 strips ago (almost a 3rd of the comic), and since then they've had the adventures in the Pyramid, fought Tarquin's army and friends, fought crazy strong frost giants, overcome a horde of vampires with high CRs and adjusted levels, and so on. However I'll settle for 17+ as the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence shown. If they defeat Serini and the Beyonder that alone will have me thinking that V has levelled again, though I'll wait for the proof obviously.

I have provided evidence of V being epic level at strip #3. I fail to see how needlessly going down to 17+ could be considered in any way accurate.

[dancrilis]

Aside from the fact we didn't see it, there is no evidence the spell can even work that way. Be fair dude, not one person here was arguing that "an unspecified item that increases CL" was the way to resolve this, no matter how you feel the majority was leaning.

I mentioned above if we are including it as currently written I would be inclinded to move it either from items to abilities or as a note beside the spell itself - however in defence of an item - Bead of karma can give a one time +4 caster level boost for someone 'capable of casting divine spells' ... and if Vaarsuvius has 'Limited Wish' they could argue to technically qualify.

I have provided evidence of V being epic level at strip #3. I fail to see how needlessly going down to 17+ could be considered in any way accurate.

If they stored Blackwing on a seperate plane they may have been able to retrieve them via a summoning spell (with silent and still attached) at a much lower level, however as they have Conjuration as a barred school they would likely have needed Shadow Conjuration (with still and silent) which would only require level 11 - if we handwave silent spell as The Giant has mentioned they don't have it that would take them down to level 9 for a 5th level spell slot, and if we hand handwave still spell as (for reasons I am dubious about) we have excluded it from them that takes them to 7th level.

Any of those options seems more reasonable to me then caster level 21+ now based solely on Telepathic Bond.

[Peelee]

If they stored Blackwing on a seperate plane they may have been able to retrieve them via a summoning spell

Which one? I never really looked into summoning all that much.

[TooSoon]

Yes, because V having an unmentioned Bead of Karma, an item that would normally do nothing to help them, and an unmentioned unseen spell they used to make it work in this one instance off panel is more likely than, I don't know, V having just hit level 17 and BW being BOGO'd. No idea why V would blow an awesome ability like that, and valuable XP, on a weak ass spell like Telepathic Bond either, when it'd be so much more useful elsewhere, or how V got such an item off panel in between the use of forcecage that showed they did not have it. I'll stop there, because this was not the consensus at all. It was for at the very least using a "likely level 17+" link on their stat block. I can go back and count the opinions if you like. I know how many votes "unspecified item that boosts CL" got off the top of my head though, because zero is an easy number to remember. Apparently only the 1 gatekeepers opinion matters I guess.

[dancrilis]

Which one? I never really looked into summoning all that much.

If Vaarsuvius has the Planer Familiar feat then they could apply 'Fiendish' to Blackwing which would mean that Blackwing could be a suitable candidate for Summon Monster 1 which allows you to summon a Fiendish Raven.

It does require a couple of assumptions however - most notably that Summon spells allow you to summon a specific creature.

[Peelee]

If Vaarsuvius has the Planer Familiar feat then they could apply 'Fiendish' to Blackwing which would mean that Blackwing could be a suitable candidate for Summon Monster 1 which allows you to summon a Fiendish Raven.

It does require a couple of assumptions however - most notably that Summon spells allow you to summon a specific creature.

Aye, but I'm trying to go for minimal assumptions, which works out to most likely being an epic version of Plane Shift. Or possible even an epic version of Teleport, if Blackwing were on the same plane. Either way V would need to be 21+.

[danielxcutter]

Okay but jokes aside, when has V been proven to have CL 17+ before the Forcecage thing?

[Schroeswald]

Okay but jokes aside, when has V been proven to have CL 17+ before the Forcecage thing?

I’m pretty sure it was complicated xp math done by someone who is currently banned (or at least hasn’t been seen in a very long time).

[TooSoon]

I’m pretty sure it was complicated xp math done by someone who is currently banned (or at least hasn’t been seen in a very long time).

I remember going back and finding it. The math held up fine. Better than a bunch of these other assumptions that are selectively accepted because the 1 gatekeeper accepts it. Half the stat blocks are built on calculations like spells per day, attacks per round, etc.

[danielxcutter]

Whoa whoa whoa slow down there.

[Yanisa]

Aye, but I'm trying to go for minimal assumptions, which works out to most likely being an epic version of Plane Shift. Or possible even an epic version of Teleport, if Blackwing were on the same plane. Either way V would need to be 21+.

I like to point out that the ability is called "Summon Familiar", which is gained at level 1.

A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard.

Source 1

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate.

Source 2

Ergo even though nothing in the text states it, based on the name of the ability it is inferred that V's way of showing her familiar is a normal level 1 Wizard/Sorcerer ability.

Try a non familiar route.

Okay but jokes aside, when has V been proven to have CL 17+ before the Forcecage thing?

Short answer: It was theorised she was level 16, based on the amount of spells V cast during the piramide arc + the amount of spells she said to have left over in #0935.

Spoiler: Long answer

Show

Here are the spells V has cast today, sorted by level and labeled by strip, under the assumptions that she and Durkon prepared spells between strips 836 and 837 (we know Durkon did, for Elan's plan's sake, so why wouldn't she?) and that her ring of wizardry is a ring of wizardry III.

Spoiler: First, assuming level 15 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist)
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: Second, assuming level 16 and 23 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

Spoiler: And finally, assuming level 16 and 24 INT

Show

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), - , -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), forcecage (935), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -, -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), Bugsby's forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th cone of cold (935, specialist), hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), -
4th dimensional anchor (935), resilient sphere (935), stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt x3 (920, 923, 926), - , - , - , - , -, -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)
0 - , - , - , -

*This may be Bugsby’s grasping hand from 932.

If V has 15 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 22 or 23 spells, not including cantrips, remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin, depending on whether the hand in 934 was a new spell or a spell that had stuck around. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 23, she would have had either 24 or 25 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. If V has 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24, she would have had either 26 or 27 spells remaining at the time of her comment to Laurin. In order for V to be telling the truth, she must have 16 levels of Wizard and an Intelligence of 24.

[Peelee]

I like to point out that the ability is called "Summon Familiar", which is gained at level 1.

A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard.

Source 1

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate.

Source 2

All true.

Ergo even though nothing in the text states it, based on the name of the ability it is inferred that V's way of showing her familiar is a normal level 1 Wizard/Sorcerer ability.

Not true. A summoning spell does instantly bring a creature, yes. But Summon Familiar is not a spell. What a spell does is irrelevant to a non-spell or non-SLA class ability.

Nice try, though.

[Yanisa]

All true.

Not true. A summoning spell does instantly bring a creature, yes. But Summon Familiar is not a spell. What a spell does is irrelevant to a non-spell or non-SLA class ability.

Nice try, though.

Fine, we add an extra step. The Summon Familiar is an ability, that functions like a summon monster spell.

A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell[...]

Source 3

Or in any case, that's what the name of the ability suggests. Not the text. Because my argument is that pedantic.

[danielxcutter]

It's only calling the familiar for the initial bond that functions that way. That's not pedantic, that's violating the spirit of the rules by mutilating the letter.

[Ortho]

If Vaarsuvius has the Planer Familiar feat then they could apply 'Fiendish' to Blackwing which would mean that Blackwing could be a suitable candidate for Summon Monster 1 which allows you to summon a Fiendish Raven.

It does require a couple of assumptions however - most notably that Summon spells allow you to summon a specific creature.

V's barred school is Conjuration. Doesn't that eliminate summoning?

[Peelee]

Fine, we add an extra step. The Summon Familiar is an ability, that functions like a summon monster spell.

A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell[...]

Source 3

Or in any case, that's what the name of the ability suggests. Not the text. Because my argument is that pedantic.

Bolding mine. By that argument, V, an elf, could only summon other elves.

Don't worry about pedantry, I am prefectly willing to be as silly as possible to win this debate!

[TooSoon]

Bolding mine. By that argument, V, an elf, could only summon other elves.

Don't worry about pedantry, I am prefectly willing to be as silly as possible to win this debate!

I think I have a pretty good sense of humour, but I have to say this "joke" isn't as funny or pertinent as you clearly imagine it to be, and if it were being advanced by someone who wasn't a mod they'd probably be getting a warning not to derail the discussion by this point.

To humour you for a briefest of moments, your point is not worth discussing because regardless of any rules explanation it is a throwback to a time the Giant didn't think this was going to be a comic, and as such the rules weren't being adhered to much. The subsequent comics show V not to be Epic, and give us a fixed amount for his level, and that subsequent, consistent portrayal trumps anything that happened as a gag in comic #3. Even if it had happened in strip 1000, a gag by the writer which is obviously a gag is always dismissed. Hayley can't actually break the 4th wall to kill Xykon either btw, just because she could take the Diamond, cos it was a joke, in case you didn't pick up on it. There's also the fact that every rule that is seemingly shown is trumped automatically by the word of the Giant, and the Giant has said plenty of stuff after strip 3 that makes it clear V is not Epic. If the Giant replied to this thread tomorrow and said "V isn't level 17, I just screwed up the spell" we would scrub the normal interpretation of the rules (even if we weren't happy about it). That has in fact happened before (e.g. the Giant screwing up Mass Death Ward, then posting in the forum to tell people "yeh, I screwed up, this is a homebrew version").

The silly position you're taking is not some kind of witty "haha see what happens when I rules lawyer you back!", it is not even a straw man. It is an utterly disanalogous situation. The arbitrary and autocratic decision by the 1 guy who runs this thread to disregard everyone's discussion about these issues, and just pick their own interpretation is wrong because:
1) It's not the consensus
2) It's not the best explanation, and
3) It's not consistent with the standards of proof generally offered on here.

If we could just say "such and such had an item that explains it", we could as easily do that to nullify any number of other stats on this thread, but we're not because, um, this 1 guy doesn't want to? What sort of reasoning is that? To quote page 1 of this thread:

Q: Does The Giant use house rules?
Probably. But for the purpose of this thread, we assume that the comic doesn't, except where The Giant has explicitly said so, or where some event is clearly not possible by the rules. That is, we try to explain events in the comic within the rules as much as possible, and that means not leaving factoids out of this thread just because The Giant might not have followed the rules there.

The explanation that most aligns with the rules is V is level 17, and the BW part was handwaved or he was included as a BOGO. That means we stick to the RAW as much as possible, without dismissing the whole spell. It also fits nicely with everything else happening in the comic. Of course, a RAW interpretation of level 20 is also fine, and we could record it as "level 17-20" in the stat block, as there is no compelling in comic reason V can't be level 20 by this point, given the length of time since they first hit level 16. However, I feel that's quite a jump and in the interests of being reasonable I think we can handwave at least the BW part of the spell. Either interpretation is abiding by the rules "as much as possible". Dismissing it outright, or randomly deciding it's an unseen and unspecified item is not.

The most correct by the rules interpretation is V is level 20. The next most correct is V is level 17 and BW was BOGO'd. Other explanations within RAW require far more unreasonable assumptions for which we have no evidence, such as hidden mystery items, etc, and such items carry their own problems (e.g. why weren't they being used in previous spells like forcecage), no such item really exists to give a 4 level boost, and we don't just assume invisible items to explain away things without proof (we don't do it for other characters stats, and we'd nullify many stats if we did). Assuming a multi-cast of the spell carries the problem that we didn't see it, and that it's not clear T.Bond can even work that way according to the rules. Now, the only reason for us not to apply RAW accord to the rules I just quoted is:
a) It's clearly not possible under the rules, or
b) The Giant said so.
The Giant has been silent, so scrub that. As for the rules, there is no reason V can't be level 17 or level 20, except that some people on here "don't like it". That objection is not on the list of this threads rules. As such we should change V's level accordingly.

[Peelee]

I think I have a pretty good sense of humour, but I have to say this "joke" isn't as funny or pertinent as you clearly imagine it to be, and if it were being advanced by someone who wasn't a mod they'd probably be getting a warning not to derail the discussion by this point.

To humour you for a briefest of moments, your point is not worth discussing because regardless of any rules explanation it is a throwback to a time the Giant didn't think this was going to be a comic, and as such the rules weren't being adhered to much. The subsequent comics show V not to be Epic, and give us a fixed amount for his level, and that subsequent, consistent portrayal trumps anything that happened as a gag in comic #3. Even if it had happened in strip 1000, a gag by the writer which is obviously a gag is always dismissed. Hayley can't actually break the 4th wall to kill Xykon either btw, just because she could take the Diamond, cos it was a joke, in case you didn't pick up on it. There's also the fact that every rule that is seemingly shown is trumped automatically by the word of the Giant, and the Giant has said plenty of stuff after strip 3 that makes it clear V is not Epic. If the Giant replied to this thread tomorrow and said "V isn't level 17, I just screwed up the spell" we would scrub the normal interpretation of the rules (even if we weren't happy about it). That has in fact happened before (e.g. the Giant screwing up Mass Death Ward, then posting in the forum to tell people "yeh, I screwed up, this is a homebrew version").

The silly position you're taking is not some kind of witty "haha see what happens when I rules lawyer you back!", it is not even a straw man. It is an utterly disanalogous situation. The arbitrary and autocratic decision by the 1 guy who runs this thread to disregard everyone's discussion about these issues, and just pick their own interpretation is wrong because:
1) It's not the consensus
2) It's not the best explanation, and
3) It's not consistent with the standards of proof generally offered on here.

If we could just say "such and such had an item that explains it", we could as easily do that to nullify any number of other stats on this thread, but we're not because, um, this 1 guy doesn't want to? What sort of reasoning is that?

A.) If you think I am abusing my modly authorities, you are absolutely free to consult with Roland St. Jude.
2.) The idea of "regardless of the author's creative license or intent on what we see, it should regardless be categorized as close to RAW as possible" does, despite your protests, present rather large issues, such as V being able to summon Blackwing throughout the story. It is clearly a joke on players forgetting about their familiar until needed, but if we are to ignore creative license and focus only on how what we see could be done by strict rules as written, then I'm sorry, but we must be able to come up with some way for V to do this. Frankly, V being epic level is, so far as I have been able to tell, the easiest method which carries the fewest assumptions. If you do not like this line of thought, then I would be confused as to your rather fervent arguments about interpreting what we see on screen (especially regarding Vaarsuvius) as strictly RAW as possible.
iii.) The "one guy who runs this thread" is a curator, and there are general guidelines for a curator to follow, and you may consult with a different moderator if you think those are not being followed. Might I suggest that what you think is a consensus is, in fact, not actually a consensus? Hell, I don't even think there was a consensus on people agreeing with the "likely" modifier, and I'm the one who came up with it and was the original proponent of it!

[TooSoon]

A.) If you think I am abusing my modly authorities, you are absolutely free to consult with Roland St. Jude.
2.) The idea of "regardless of the author's creative license or intent on what we see, it should regardless be categorized as close to RAW as possible" does, despite your protests, present rather large issues, such as V being able to summon Blackwing throughout the story. It is clearly a joke on players forgetting about their familiar until needed, but if we are to ignore creative license and focus only on how what we see could be done by strict rules as written, then I'm sorry, but we must be able to come up with some way for V to do this. Frankly, V being epic level is, so far as I have been able to tell, the easiest method which carries the fewest assumptions. If you do not like this line of thought, then I would be confused as to your rather fervent arguments about interpreting what we see on screen (especially regarding Vaarsuvius) as strictly RAW as possible.
iii.) The "one guy who runs this thread" is a curator, and there are general guidelines for a curator to follow, and you may consult with a different moderator if you think those are not being followed. Might I suggest that what you think is a consensus is, in fact, not actually a consensus? Hell, I don't even think there was a consensus on people agreeing with the "likely" modifier, and I'm the one who came up with it and was the original proponent of it!

Not one person was advocating for the solution the "curator" picked. Not one. Whatever the consensus is, and we can do some kind of tally perhaps, it is not what the "curator" picked.

As for your joke, I explained pretty clearly why it's not "the easiest method", because it would require us to dismiss the hundreds and hundreds of strips of evidence that happened after it, as well as many statements by the Giant that came after it. That you continue to invoke it with this weird insistence that it's somehow analogous is beyond risible.

[Jasdoif]

The "one guy who runs this thread" is a curator, and there are general guidelines for a curator to follow, and you may consult with a different moderator if you think those are not being followed.

Since you bring it up....Are there general guidelines on whether curated threads are supposed to link to said guidelines? (This thread does, in the "Frequently Asked Questions" spoiler in the first post.)

[Peelee]

Not one person was advocating for the solution the "curator" picked. Not one. Whatever the consensus is, and we can do some kind of tally perhaps, it is not what the "curator" picked.

As for your joke, I explained pretty clearly why it's not "the easiest method", because it would require us to dismiss the hundreds and hundreds of strips of evidence that happened after it, as well as many statements by the Giant that came after it. That you continue to invoke it with this weird insistence that it's somehow analogous is beyond risible.

A.) As I said, you are free to take it up with a different Moderator (I assume you would prefer to not take it up with me).
2.) I am not making a joke. I am making an argument that also happens to amuse me.