Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

A.) As I said, you are free to take it up with a different Moderator (I assume you would prefer to not take it up with me).
2.) I am not making a joke. I am making an argument that also happens to amuse me.

It fails as both a joke and an argument. If you had made this argument in strip #3 when we knew nothing about the characters then you would have had something to argue about. You don't because we have had 1237 comics, and numerous spin off books, that have happened since then which have progressively demonstrated that V is not epic, both through irrefutable evidence, character statements, and the Word of the Giant, all of which make your argument dead on arrival. That's aside from the fact it's a gag, written before the author knew he was writing a comic which would have any continuity or need to obey the rules closely.

To others I ask again whether V should be listed as "level 17+" or "level 17-20" with a link to Telepathic Bond for either. Alternatively, do people want a "likely" tag included? I don't think the "unspecified item that boosts CL" is the solution, and I saw nobody else on here arguing for it.

[Metastachydium]

The notion that V (and V alone) is level 20 remains absurd and if the CL requirement for V casting the Bond as they did is proof of them having 17+ levels, then we must accept the Forcecage thing to be indicative of their Cl as well, which makes the aforesaid notion even more blatantly ridiculous.
If it makes you happy, I can get behind "likely 17+", since that's at the very least not impossible, but nothing beyond that.

[dancrilis]

To others I ask again whether V should be listed as "level 17+" or "level 17-20" with a link to Telepathic Bond for either.

No for both.

Rational: Vaarsuvius has avoided/been absent from many fights, they actually spend XP on things other then leveling and The Giant delibrately does not want them overshadowing other members so does this on purpose. It is not reasonable to assume that have outleveled every other member of the order in many cases by more then one level.
Edit: This is particularly true when there are multiple alternatives that cover caster level 21 and seperately that we know custom spells exists.

Alternatively, do people want a "likely" tag included?

No I think it would just cause even more work for the curator and not make anyone any happier about what resolution was reached.

[TooSoon]

The notion that V (and V alone) is level 20 remains absurd and if the CL requirement for V casting the Bond as they did is proof of them having 17+ levels, then we must accept the Forcecage thing to be indicative of their Cl as well, which makes the aforesaid notion even more blatantly ridiculous.
If it makes you happy, I can get behind "likely 17+", since that's at the very least not impossible, but nothing beyond that.

On the previous page I listed the 2 reasons for disregarding the prima facie assumed RAW rules provided on page 1 of this thread. "It's absurd" is not one of the reasons. One is "the giant said so", the other is that "the event is clearly not possible within the rules". Now, within that second one there is I think some scope for us to say "well, that's absurd, because such and such cannot be at such a high level, especially given the other clearly presented evidence". However, V being level 20 would not be such an instance of this IMO, because it is plainly possible for V to be level 20. The start of the day when V proved level 16 occurred 400 strips ago, and in that time the number of potentially level worthy events is sufficient that V could indeed have reached 20 (and the rest of the order could be higher too, though there is no reason they have to be; we have never based levels on what other team members are at, they are often not aligned). I don't personally think V is level 20, I feel 17+ would be the more balanced approach, but it is not "not possible" in the sense this thread frames as binding.

[Peelee]

It fails as both a joke and an argument.

I disagree. If we want to build V per RAW, Blackwing's summoning must be taken into consideration. You have failed to do so, so I have proposed it. You may not like that argument, but fortunately for me I am under no obligation to stop making arguments that you do not like.

Further, I feel the need to say again that it is not a joke. It is an argument that I find amusing. And similarly, if you do not, I am under no obligation to stop finding it amusing.

[Metastachydium]

O The start of the day when V proved level 16 occurred 400 strips ago, and in that time the number of potentially level worthy events is sufficient that V could indeed have reached 20

How many strips ago it was is irrelevant. Vaarsuvius participated in three (or so) encounters since then. There is literally no way the frost giants alone could give them 4(!) levels (if the first of those, by your logic, must be above 18), and until then, the only enemies they fought and that would actually give the Order XP were Greg, the Likable Death Worm and maybe some of the higher ranking vampire clerics (because seriously, spawn are CR4 and full vampires only get a +2 to their CR). This gives us a CR 18 opponent, a CR 17(/18) one and a couple more (I doubt Curly and the clerics Roy one-shot-killed were worth much) lower level threats. Yes, I stand by my opinion: V literally couldn't get 4 high levels worth of XP from those.

[b_jonas]

Yes, because V having an unmentioned Bead of Karma, an item that would normally do nothing to help them,

An item that boosts caster level would help Vaarsuvius significantly. It would better allowed her to counterspell Samantha and Laurin, get through Zz'dtri's magic resistance, etc. It would increase the damager of his attack spells, namely at least cone of cold when she was lower level and chain lightning later. It would let her give fly and greater invisibility buffs to herself or party members with a longer duration when they fly ahead for extended scouting missions.

Hey, in fact, serious question. Did a single Greater Invisibility spell last from #1051 to #1056, with clearly more time planned if the Giant cleric didn't purge the spell? Or can we do this sensibly and assume that Vaarsuvius can recast a 4th level spell multiple times off screen, unlike with the frickin' telepathy?

Update: Vaarsuvius cast Greater Invisibility on Haley while still on the Mechane, with duration one round per level. “The elf just zoomed out of view” at 60 foot per round speed, while she was together with Haley. While Haley was invisible, Belkar ran up a ladder, jumped off the ship, landed, beheaded a giant with a halfling rage jump attack, did at least two more attacks including one jumping, all while Haley was present nearby, and then Haley flew ahead of the ship to the clerics.

[InvisibleBison]

Hey, in fact, serious question. Did a single Greater Invisibility spell last from #1051 to #1056, with clearly more time planned if the Giant cleric didn't purge the spell? Or can we do this sensibly and assume that Vaarsuvius can recast a 4th level spell multiple times off screen, unlike with the frickin' telepathy?

Yes, it was a single spell. Since V has CL 17 at that point, extended greater invisibility would last for 34 rounds, plenty of time for the fight we see to play out.

[TooSoon]

How many strips ago it was is irrelevant. Vaarsuvius participated in three (or so) encounters since then. There is literally no way the frost giants alone could give them 4(!) levels (if the first of those, by your logic, must be above 18), and until then, the only enemies they fought and that would actually give the Order XP were Greg, the Likable Death Worm and maybe some of the higher ranking vampire clerics (because seriously, spawn are CR4 and full vampires only get a +2 to their CR). This gives us a CR 18 opponent, a CR 17(/18) one and a couple more (I doubt Curly and the clerics Roy one-shot-killed were worth much) lower level threats. Yes, I stand by my opinion: V literally couldn't get 4 high levels worth of XP from those.

Ok, so just before I reply I want to reiterate that I too feel 20 is a little on the high side for V, and I would prefer the stat block to read level 17+. With that throat clearing out of the way; we're talking about what is possible, not what feels right. I cited the parameters of this thread from page 1 earlier. Basically "I don't like it" or "that feels too high" is not a reason for ignoring the rules for the purposes of this thread. An example of where this might be fairly applied is the case of Durkon using Wind Walk. Durkon had literally just been killed twice, and pegged to level 13; so for Durkon to be 5 levels higher the next day made no sense, and it made sense to pass it off to alternative explanations within the rules. Even though we never saw it, Durkon could have cast twice, and in that case it made more sense than applying the rules which would have been impossible to apply basically.

The situation of Durkon is also disanalogous because we know multiple castings of Wind Walk would solve the problem, whereas it's not at all clear multiple castings of Telepathic Bond would. There's just no indication the spell works that way. Yes, you can create another telepathic bond, but it is seemingly separate from the first bond, like 2 bits of different coloured psychic string that don't overlap. Thus V can cast the spell 100 times and it still won't get around the limit of "one party member is getting left out of each bond if your CL isn't higher". The characters act like it's a single bond connecting them all.

The case of V here is different. Do I personally think V got to level 20? No. But is it possible? Yes it is. Firstly, enough time has passed that V could have had side quests or kills off panel we didn't see (or which will be revealed in the bonus strips in the books). It's not immediately after like with Durkon dying, then suddenly having a caster level 5+ higher. V has also done a lot of stuff which, if we made the right assumptions, could have given V that much experience (e.g. we assume the highest level possible for Tarquin and friends and his army, we assume the highest level possible for the Frost Giants and multiple Vampire encounters, and treat them as separate encounters with XP as much as possible, and do the same with the Nightshade that was summoned, etc).

I prefer applying some common sense and listing V at level 17+, however 17-20 is also fine within the rules of the thread, and technically 20 is the most correct level to put V at (if we go purely by RAW).

[InvisibleBison]

Do I personally think V got to level 20? No. But is it possible? Yes it is.

Actually, it's not possible. You can't gain more than one level per adventure, so V can be at most 18th level (16th level to begin with + 1 level from the Girard's Gate adventure + 1 level from the Firmament adventure).

[TooSoon]

Actually, it's not possible. You can't gain more than one level per adventure, so V can be at most 18th level (16th level to begin with + 1 level from the Girard's Gate adventure + 1 level from the Firmament adventure).

Ok let's take a step back for a second, because
1) It's not entirely clear that's how it works in the comic, and
2) There is some flexibility in how we interpret such rules.

Again, I'll reiterate that 20 is a little rich for my blood and I'd prefer if we just pegged V at 17+ and BOGO/handwave BW. My general rule RE: levelling is that it appears the adventures cannot gain more than 1 level per day. That said, we see Hayley apparently break this rule after killing Crystal. That touches on another question, namely what is an adventure. Hayley's killing Crystal on the side between a bigger quest apparently counts as a discrete XP gaining adventure/event, so if we took the most liberal approach what could Vs level gain have been? As I indicated before a liberal interpretation of events can easily yield the necessary +4 levels in the last 400 strips, which within the strict letter of the rules for this thread means we should list V at level 20. We could view the defeat of the CR Nightshade as a distinct XP event, just like Hayley killing Crystal. We could view each encounter with the Vampires as a distinct "Adventure" (i.e. "The quest to defeat Evil Durkon", followed by "The quest to defeat Gomtor"). Enough time has passed that things could also have happened off panel, some of which we might see in the bonus strip. As such it is not impossible within the meaning of the rules of this thread. Durkon being 5 levels higher almost immediately after being pegged at 13? That was much more clearly not possible, ergo the work around/disregarding it.

V could also have been lvl 16 before it was proved in the comic btw. Even seeing Tarquin's event as 1 discrete adventure, and even assuming V was level 16 then, we might say "ok, V got to level 17 from that, and so much extra XP that they were right at level 18 but not over the threshold because they were limited from getting 2 levels per adventure. V killed something off panel right after that, hitting 18. Or let us say V hit 18 while fighting the Frost Giants, or the vampires. V then got additional XP for the defeat of the Nightshade, and then the final battle with the vampires, taking them to 19 and giving a bevy of extra XP that took them close to 20 but being unable to cross over into it due to the 2 level limit. Finally, V blasted something off panel in a random encounter on the way to the 5th Gate, and hit level 20. Of course I am not saying we have to go this route, but it is an example of how we can easily fit V's RAW level as possible within the rules.

[Ortho]

V could also have been lvl 16 before it was proved in the comic btw. Even seeing Tarquin's event as 1 discrete adventure, and even assuming V was level 16 then, we might say "ok, V got to level 17 from that, and so much extra XP that they were right at level 18 but not over the threshold because they were limited from getting 2 levels per adventure. V killed something off panel right after that, hitting 18. Or let us say V hit 18 while fighting the Frost Giants, or the vampires. V then got additional XP for the defeat of the Nightshade, and then the final battle with the vampires, taking them to 19 and giving a bevy of extra XP that took them close to 20 but being unable to cross over into it due to the 2 level limit. Finally, V blasted something off panel in a random encounter on the way to the 5th Gate, and hit level 20. Of course I am not saying we have to go this route, but it is an example of how we can easily fit V's RAW level as possible within the rules.

Two things I'd like to address here:

1) V was level 16 in 1102, there's no two ways about it. And three days have passed since then: one night in Firmament, and two on the Mechane. So what you're actually arguing is that that V leveled up 4 times in 3 days.

Regardless of what the OP says, plausibility is a factor in determining a character's stats. It's just a soft requirement, rather than a hard one.

2) Besides:

I have also pointed out that if we were to assume "oh there were spells/abilities used that weren't shown on panel" then such reasoning would negate half the stats on this thread.

If we can't assume that spells were cast off-panel, then we very definitely shouldn't assume that entire encounters powerful enough to level up characters happened off panel. At that point, we'll never be able to determine anyone's levels at all.

[Reboot]

My thoughts on all this mess. (In an abundance of caution, I am neither a mod nor play one on TV, and none of this is an attempt to pretend otherwise):

1) TooSoon has a valid point with "no-one suggested V had an extra caster level boosting item, beyond Blackwing's anklet". If the thread curator is meant to reflect consensus with the stat blocks, this clearly didn't.

2) We know exactly what was going on with Blackwing in strip #3, per an explicit statement from BW himself in #715 - a familiar can only exist on the material plane while their wizard (etc) remembers them. This is not a spell, and not exactly a spell-like ability, since V has no conscious control over it (save perhaps through some sort of memory modification spell). After the events of DStP, they have now trained themselves to remember BW to the point that BW disappearing is no longer something that can happen. Is it RAW? No, but explicit Giant or in-comic statements that something is the case in OOTS overrides that. Is it kinda silly? Well, yeah, but it started as a joke. Any argument that it "proves" V is Epic or anything else along the same lines is disingenuous, and I think the poster "making" the argument knows that...

[TooSoon]

Two things I'd like to address here:

1) V was level 16 in 1102, there's no two ways about it. And three days have passed since then: one night in Firmament, and two on the Mechane. So what you're actually arguing is that that V leveled up 4 times in 3 days.

Regardless of what the OP says, plausibility is a factor in determining a character's stats. It's just a soft requirement, rather than a hard one.

2) Besides:


If we can't assume that spells were cast off-panel, then we very definitely shouldn't assume that entire encounters powerful enough to level up characters happened off panel. At that point, we'll never be able to determine anyone's levels at all.

No, strip 1102 shows V was at least level 16 at that time. You can set the spell duration at a lower amount than your level, or just opt to not use the Ion Stone bonus. Of course, why would you do that, but that's not the way the evidence is interpreted or else we could as easily say "why would character X not do Y? That's dumb" about a lot of evidence on here.

Now, I personally feel 1102 does indeed show V being level 16 (+1 with the stone), so I wrote my hypothetical example in such a way that it would still work RE: levelling. V could be 1 XP away from levelling in this scene, and as soon as they defeated the vampires V levelled and was another 1 XP from hitting 18. That leaves multiple remaining "adventures" against the vampires, the battle v.s the Nightshade, some off panel random encounter, etc, to hit the additional levels needed as my hypothetical scenario posed. You could if you wished assume V again levelled and hit 18 after defeating Durkon and was 1 XP off hitting levelling to 19, then levelled after defeating the Nightshade + Gontor to hit level 19, and be on the threshold of hitting 20. V then kills a flying random encounter on the way to the last gate in 1 shot for the 2 XP to hit level 20. See? Not that hard to explain.

The reality is we do not use XP calculations on here to level characters, never have, so saying "well I don't see where they got the XP" is not an argument. Maybe they got some story XP, or maybe it was off panel. Whatever the case, it is certainly plausible V could have obtained enough given the time that has passed. I personally don't think so, but applying the rules set out in the OP that is strictly speaking the correct outcome (and I don't think it's appropriate to say we don't interpret things that way; if we don't why does it say we do in the OP?).

[danielxcutter]

I imagine V would have stated the actual duration if that was the case, so... yeah. There's no way Blackwing was too far to apply the ioun stone effect.

[TooSoon]

I imagine V would have stated the actual duration if that was the case, so... yeah. There's no way Blackwing was too far to apply the ioun stone effect.

Sure. Why would you. But that is not an argument that is accepted as valid for the purposes of this thread. If V cast 7 level 5 spells in the next comic, and I said "this proves V is level whatever, because it's more level 5 spells than they are able to cast right now, the first reply back to me would be "yeh, but V could have used higher level spell slots to store those spells, so it proves nothing". Now of course, it's dumb to do that, etc, why would V do that? But that means nothing, all that matters is it is indeed possible V could have done that.

[Metastachydium]

Ok, so just before I reply I want to reiterate that I too feel 20 is a little on the high side for V, and I would prefer the stat block to read level 17+. With that throat clearing out of the way; we're talking about what is possible, not what feels right. I cited the parameters of this thread from page 1 earlier. Basically "I don't like it" or "that feels too high" is not a reason for ignoring the rules for the purposes of this thread. An example of where this might be fairly applied is the case of Durkon using Wind Walk. Durkon had literally just been killed twice, and pegged to level 13; so for Durkon to be 5 levels higher the next day made no sense, and it made sense to pass it off to alternative explanations within the rules. Even though we never saw it, Durkon could have cast twice, and in that case it made more sense than applying the rules which would have been impossible to apply basically.

The situation of Durkon is also disanalogous because we know multiple castings of Wind Walk would solve the problem, whereas it's not at all clear multiple castings of Telepathic Bond would. There's just no indication the spell works that way. Yes, you can create another telepathic bond, but it is seemingly separate from the first bond, like 2 bits of different coloured psychic string that don't overlap. Thus V can cast the spell 100 times and it still won't get around the limit of "one party member is getting left out of each bond if your CL isn't higher". The characters act like it's a single bond connecting them all.

The case of V here is different. Do I personally think V got to level 20? No. But is it possible? Yes it is. Firstly, enough time has passed that V could have had side quests or kills off panel we didn't see (or which will be revealed in the bonus strips in the books). It's not immediately after like with Durkon dying, then suddenly having a caster level 5+ higher. V has also done a lot of stuff which, if we made the right assumptions, could have given V that much experience (e.g. we assume the highest level possible for Tarquin and friends and his army, we assume the highest level possible for the Frost Giants and multiple Vampire encounters, and treat them as separate encounters with XP as much as possible, and do the same with the Nightshade that was summoned, etc).

I prefer applying some common sense and listing V at level 17+, however 17-20 is also fine within the rules of the thread, and technically 20 is the most correct level to put V at (if we go purely by RAW).

Let's be serious here. The fight with the Legion and the frost giants actually happened before the Forcecage incident (I misremembered the latter), so presuming that somehow all the giants had 20 HD (and somehow still went down to a few arrows and a chain lightning) will not help you much. As for the idea that all the bonus strips from the first half of book 7 will be about V soloing epic level threats is simply laughable. So, that leaves us with the three vampire fights.
During the first fight, pretty much the only opponent they could get XP for was Darth Sandstone. Even if he's somehow CR 20, that's just a few thousand XP for V at the end. If Greg's right hand woman and Greg himself are both CR 20 too (which is definitely not the case for Greg), that's what? 5000 XP for V? 6? To advance from level 16 to level 20, one needs some 70000 Xp. Would you like to argue that the fight with the nightcrawler and the Exarch was somehow worth 60000+? Or that flying invisibly over a canyon netted 30000 XP for V?
Sorry, I just don't see it.

[Riftwolf]

Just throwing out a hypothetical;
What if V is CL17, but unable to cast 9th level spells?
Hear me out;
In the Ilithid gag, V mentions having 18 INT. To cast 9th level spells you need 19 INT. Now, V has levelled a lot since then and *logically* would've put ability points into INT. But what if they weren't logical about it? What if after the Darth V arc, they put points into WIS instead?

[b_jonas]

Riftwolf: Vaarsuvius has a headband (later hairband) that increases his intelligence. The squid thingy doesn't count the headband, because he eats brains, not equipment. The 18 intelligence is Vaarsuvius's naked stat, with the headband it's higher.

[Ortho]

No, strip 1102 shows V was at least level 16 at that time. You can set the spell duration at a lower amount than your level, or just opt to not use the Ion Stone bonus. Of course, why would you do that, but that's not the way the evidence is interpreted or else we could as easily say "why would character X not do Y? That's dumb" about a lot of evidence on here.

By that logic, any character could be Epic and only ever selectively use their abilities to appear a lower level.

Beyond that, Forcecage's duration is 2h per caster level, not up to 2h per caster level. So V was indeed level 16. I stand corrected.

[InvisibleBison]

By that logic, any character could be Epic and only ever selectively use their abilities to appear a lower level.

Beyond that, Forcecage's duration is 2h per caster level, not up to 2h per caster level. So V was indeed level 16.

While I agree that there's no reason to think V isn't 16th level in #1102, it is in fact possible to cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal.

[TooSoon]

While I agree that there's no reason to think V isn't 16th level in #1102, it is in fact possible to cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal.

And I agree. I personally think that V was level 16 in this scene, however by the strict rules of this thread all it proves is the minimum level V was at. As such we can add XP for stuff that occurred before the forcecage all the way back to strip 838 (the start of the day on which V proved they were level 16). That includes ALOT of extra stuff that even the more skeptical must admit could have been enough for 4 levels gained, especially if we make the charitable assumptions necessary to do so. By the rules this thread claims to follow then we should adjust V to level 20, as that level is what the spell requires by RAW, and neither of the 2 nullifying factors listed in the OP apply (i.e. the giant didn't say otherwise, and it is possible within the rules).

If people want to be reasonable about this, I'd like us to just list V as level 17+, and handwave BW (or say he was a BOGO), and give Rich the benefit of the doubt in messing that up. If people want to be rules lawyers, I say let's apply the rules this thread claims to adhere to and make him level 20. Reasons like "I don't agree", or "I don't feel V should be that high", are not technically valid according to the parameters laid out in the OP of this thread, and I feel like this is the problem. The thread is not being consistent about it's own rules, and in this case is not even applying the consensus. The gatekeeper of the thread is deciding what he feels like putting in, and disregarding the rules of the OP, the consensus of the posters, and the past standards of proof that have been applied.

[DaOldeWolf]

Isnt there some way for V to share spell benefits with his familiar? Like what happened back in the vampire battle. It was protected by the same wards as V and I doubt they would have wasted one spell to protect Blackwing but not protect Haley or Elan. Just something, I though I should mention.

[Yanisa]

Isnt there some way for V to share spell benefits with his familiar? Like what happened back in the vampire battle. It was protected by the same wards as V and I doubt they would have wasted one spell to protect Blackwing but not protect Haley or Elan. Just something, I though I should mention.

You mean the share spell familiar ability. That one had the problem of distance and has had a lot of debate in this thread.

In case you missed it:

Spoiler: Long Answer.

Show

Point Blank Shot is a prerequisite for rapid shot.

EDIT 1: Also, Telepathic Bond can be added to V's spell list. By the way, instead of adding an unspecified spell level boost - wouldn't it just be easier to assume Blackwing is a BOGO and doesn't count for the purposes of casting Telepathic bond? So V only needs to be level 15 to cast the spell on everybody (5 party members), not 18.

EDIT 2: Actually, it's specified under the familiar section.

"Share Spells

At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

A master and his familiar can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the familiar’s type (magical beast)."

Telepathic Bond affect the caster + 1 character per 3 caster levels. In order to hit the 5 other member of the order, Minrah and Blackwing, V needs a caster level of 21 (7*3). Blackwing cannot be treated as free by the share spell familiar ability because he keeps the spell even when he more then 5 feet away from V.

Note, my statement isn't a reply to DLcygnet. It just so happened to be the first one I saw that summed up the ability.

Also, no quote but a lot of people assume the distance to be either deliberately ignored or accidentally forgotten by The Giant.

In any case, maybe we can gleam something from the vampire battle, so I will give that fight a reread.

[dancrilis]

and neither of the 2 nullifying factors listed in the OP apply (i.e. the giant didn't say otherwise, and it is possible within the rules).

It is possible in the rules.

[TooSoon]

It is possible in the rules.

I think you're confusing my meaning, because this is a point for my side. The OP sets out the parameters of the thread, which is "we assume the rules, unless 1) the giant says otherwise, or 2) what we're seeing isn't possible within the rules. So in the case of Mass Death Ward for example; a RAW interpretation had implications for Durkon's level, but then the Giant posted and said "no, I messed up, this is a homebrew version, I didn't even realise there was a Mass Death Ward spell". Alternatively, Durkon's wind walk by RAW means Durkon is level 18; however we know Durkon was pegged to level 13 only the day before, so it's not possible for Durkon to be level 18 within the rules; there just hasn't been enough time for Durkon to have conceivably levelled up that much, so we can squib it and say "well, Durkon could have cast it another time off panel, which is within the rules, whereas Durkon being 18 is not".

In the case of V:
1) The Giant hasn't said anything, and
2) There has been more than enough time and XP available in the 400 panels since V proved they were level 16 for V to add 4 levels. Indeed, it's not even sure V wasn't already higher than 16 back then, or if they were that they weren't 1 XP away from 17.
Therefore the thread rules state we assume the ordinary operation of the rules, and V is level 20. I personally think Rich just messed up and didn't realise the distance limit for BW, or BOGO/handwaved it, and I would rather we list V as level 17... however the strict interpretation of the rules as stated for this thread call for V to be level 20.

There is also the other difference between Durkon and Wind Walk, namely that Durkon's multiple castings of Wind Walk would have worked, and it's entirely unclear under the rules that multiple castings of Telepathic Bond would.

So the technical application of the rules should be: V is now level 20.

[Yanisa]

In any case, maybe we can gleam something from the vampire battle, so I will give that fight a reread.

Sadly, nothing about the five feet rule. I almost had a cause because in #1119 Blackwings breaks the five feet distance. In the second panel we see Haley behind V, with vampires between them. Then in the sixth panel we see Hilgya is behind Haley.
However in #1122 Blackwing also gets hit by dispel. So we cannot know if the fatal stab (#1125) was due to breaking the 5 rule or the dispel. (We could have calculated all the damage Blackwing has gotten and calculated V's hit points because Blackwings HP is 50% of V. Then do it again, but with the buffs and see if we see a fatal difference.)

We do see Share Spell in action in #1116 & #1117.

What did strike me is that The Giant has portrayed share spare differently then what we see in the Telepathic Bond scene. In the former comics, we see V's aura also envelop Blackwing. In our favorite #1220 we see a small sliver going from V towards Blackwing. Maybe this implies Blackwing is a target rather then BOGO. Or it could also be that Giant wanted to portray that Bears Endurance and Stoneskin are spells that affect the entire body, whereas Telepathic Bond only affects the mind.

More data is needed.

[dancrilis]

There is also the other difference between Durkon and Wind Walk, namely that Durkon's multiple castings of Wind Walk would have worked, and it's entirely unclear under the rules that multiple castings of Telepathic Bond would.

We know one can isolate their telepathic bond to specific people as such we know that the connections are seperate rather then communal, we also know that one can communicate with multiple people so one can use multiple connections at once therefore multiple castings of Telepathic Bond seems a fine answer under the rules as have been shown.

So the technical application of the rules should be: V is now level 20.

Even if you discount the above a single feat could allow a 16th level wizard to cast with caster level 21, and a combination of two item could allow a 16th level wizard to also do so - one of which we know that the wizard in question has (a customised orange ioun stone).

[TooSoon]

We know one can isolate their telepathic bond to specific people as such we know that the connections are seperate rather then communal, we also know that one can communicate with multiple people so one can use multiple connections at once therefore multiple castings of Telepathic Bond seems a fine answer under the rules as have been shown.


Even if you discount the above a single feat could allow a 16th level wizard to cast with caster level 21, and a combination of two item could allow a 16th level wizard to also do so - one of which we know that the wizard in question has (a customised orange ioun stone).

1) I'm sorry but this feels like you inventing stuff. I at least qualified my opinion with "it's not clear under the rules that it can work". The assertion the connection is "single" rather than "communal", whatever that is meant to mean, is a completely made up distinction. The spell is here.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm
It says:

You forge a telepathic bond among yourself and a number of willing creatures... Each creature included in the link is linked to all the others.

It does not say anything about how bonds can be stacked on top of other bonds to allow every person in one bond to communicate with every person in another bond, and so by the prima facie reading of the rules it lacks this ability. the number of people you can put into any one bond is your CL divided by 3. On reading it my assumption is each bond fits that number of people, and operates to only connect the people in the bond to that particular bond. In that sense each bond is like a different coloured piece of psychic string that runs parallel to each other piece of string.

This is also consistent with how telepathy works in general in D&D as I understand it. You don't get some free ride into another person's psychic link just because a person you are bonded to has said link. So for example if V shares a psychic link with someone they've dominated, the bondees in a TP bond don't also get access to that dominated person. It flat out tells us "No special power or influence is established as a result of the bond". So if V has Mind Blank or uses Divination, that doesn't extend to the other bondees either. With that statement I have to assume that if V created another telepathic bond that would count as a "special power" that each of the bondees possessed, and it would not extend to the others by rule.

2) We could use "someone had an obscure item/feat that gave them a higher CL" to nullify many other things in the stat block. The precedent is we never assume that unless there is actual evidence for it, we take the Occam's razor approach of "this is due to the CL" and not an unseen, unmentioned obscure feat/item. If we went with that assumption just scrub half the stat blocks now, we can't prove anything for the most part, everything would be nullified with "such and such can't be proved to do XYZ because of an obscure feat/item".

[dancrilis]

1) I'm sorry but this feels like you inventing stuff. I at least qualified my opinion with "it's not clear under the rules that it can work". The assertion the connection is "single" rather than "communal", whatever that is meant to mean, is a completely made up distinction. The spell is here.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm

Here we have a conversation occuring between multiple people.
Here we have one on one conversations.

As such we know that you can direct your thoughts singularly or communally - the idea that you could not direct your thoughts as you liked if you were under multiple bonds is something that are using to justify a level increase, it is on you to show that to be the case.
This is unlikely to be possible because the spell text does not specify as such is should not be relied on to justify a level increase.

The arguement made by b_jonas is not that two bonds are allowing thoughts to be relayed between two unconnected people - it is that three bonds allows for everyone to be linked to everyone else by at least one bond.

The precedent is we never assume that unless there is actual evidence for it, we take the Occam's razor approach of "this is due to the CL" and not an unseen, unmentioned obscure feat/item.

That is not the precedent - see Xykon's use of a Still Meteor Swarm (normally a 10th level spell slot) or Maximised Energy Drain (a 12th level spell slot).

Unexpected/unseen/unknown/etc items/abilities/feats/etc holding back level increase that people feel are perhaps unjustified has been the the precedent for nearly 600 strips on Xykon - and if we treat Roy's four slashs in 442 as four attacks in a single round and thereby a justification for level 16 we have been avoiding high level in characters for nearly 800 strips on similiar justification (that one being that Xykon's rounds while Roy attacked him were either not shown or he choose to do nothing).