Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Quartz]

Wizards get a bonus feat at 15th level.

I’m not sure that metamagic is always called out. Xykon does it but I think that that might be part of an Intimidation check like when he hit V with a maximised Energy Drain.

[danielxcutter]

Wizards get a bonus feat at 15th level.

I’m not sure that metamagic is always called out. Xykon does it but I think that that might be part of an Intimidation check like when he hit V with a maximised Energy Drain.

I don't recall an instance of an obviously metamagicked spell NOT having it mentioned, though I suppose technically that's not an iron-clad proof.

[TooSoon]

I don't recall an instance of an obviously metamagicked spell NOT having it mentioned, though I suppose technically that's not an iron-clad proof.

Yeh, the metamagic is called out; it can't be assumed if it's not, that alone makes it a weaker argument than Occam's razor of "yeh, he levelled".

[Yanisa]

I don't recall an instance of an obviously metamagicked spell NOT having it mentioned, though I suppose technically that's not an iron-clad proof.

Silent Spell isn't called out.

[danielxcutter]

Silent Spell isn't called out.

Okay, besides that then.

[DLcygnet]

I asked a yes-or-no question....

Ok, NO, I don't think V is level 20 (even though there's evidence to support it). I agree V should be listed as 17+ only because I believe this meets the author's intent. Also, the easy-to-overlook range limitation on Share Spells is STUPID because almost half of all familiars can fly; are they supposed to sit on the wizard's shoulder or hoover in place for the entire duration?

[Jasdoif]

Also, the easy-to-overlook range limitation on Share Spells is STUPID because almost half of all familiars can fly; are they supposed to sit on the wizard's shoulder or hoover in place for the entire duration?

Other way around, I think. My perception is that Share Spells exists specifically so that when the familiar is sitting on the wizard's shoulder, they aren't competing with the rest of the party for spells limited by number of creatures (like teleport, which has exactly enough capacity for the assumed four-creature adventuring party when it's first available).

[dancrilis]

Ok, NO, I don't think V is level 20 (even though there's evidence to support it). I agree V should be listed as 17+ only because I believe this meets the author's intent. Also, the easy-to-overlook range limitation on Share Spells is STUPID because almost half of all familiars can fly; are they supposed to sit on the wizard's shoulder or hoover in place for the entire duration?

If we are discounting the rules then we are discounting the rules so shouldn't be then making rules based arguements for a higher level.

If we are applying the rules then we have a number of choices for caster level 21 of which being level 20 seems less likely then having a feat, or an item, or having cast the spell multiple times - and as such no reason for level increase exists.

[Reboot]

I'm just going to point out, I saw the Silent Spell thing coming and called out "with the obvious exception of Silent Spell" in my post :p

Wizards get a bonus feat at 15th level.

That's not particularly useful though - for it to come into play, V would have to have been 14th level in Tinkertown when they picked up spells including Telepathic Bond and Mind Blank, and yet levelled twice to have two non-Evocation L8 spell slots (for Mind Blank×2, which was their limit) and Caster L17 (including Blackwing's ioun anklet) by the time they were prepping spells c. #1090. If L15 is the only point they could have taken Arcane Thesis, that's yet another reason to dismiss it.

I’m not sure that metamagic is always called out. Xykon does it but I think that that might be part of an Intimidation check like when he hit V with a maximised Energy Drain.

It's always called out when we "hear" the spell name at all. I don't see that Redcloak muttering Extended Freedom of Movement and Extended Fortunate Fate under his breath as part of a mass self-buff or V dropping Extended Greater Invisibility on Haley is going to do much for an intimidation check when enemies aren't even in earshot.

[Living Oxymoron]

Guys, I've lived enough to know how compelling these discussions about spellcaster levels are, but anyone had already pointed out that Durkon was the first one to recognize the "whatchamacallit" and for that he may have at least one rank in Knowledge (Dungeoneering)? (Plus V seems to know their ability of anti-magic field, so he may have that skill too)

[dancrilis]

Guys, I've lived enough to know how compelling these discussions about spellcaster levels are, but anyone had already pointed out that Durkon was the first one to recognize the "whatchamacallit" and for that he may have at least one rank in Knowledge (Dungeoneering)? (Plus V seems to know their ability of anti-magic field, so he may have that skill too)

Not sure about for Durkon - knowing that there are monsters with lots of eyeballs seems like it might be common knowledge and so require no training, but knowing that the eyeballs are magic might very well be uncommon ... I say yes Knowledge (Dungeoneering) is appropraite.

For Vaarsuvius I would also say yes that does seem like specialist knowledge.

I would also say that we might include Elan in that for correctly noting that the creature can use Charm.

[danielxcutter]

"Floating thing with magical eyes" isn't much help though. I wouldn't be surprised if that alone would be fine with an untrained check. Actually, can clerics get that skill in-class without domains?

[Peelee]

Aren't all knowledge skills usable untrained?

[dancrilis]

"Floating thing with magical eyes" isn't much help though. I wouldn't be surprised if that alone would be fine with an untrained check. Actually, can clerics get that skill in-class without domains?

Consider it like this - a village of 100 NPCs with all with Int 10 and no skill points in Knowledge (Dungeoneering), if a beholder hovers over the village (doesn't attack of do anything else) and all hundred people see it would you expect 55 of them to correctly identify that the eyeballs were magical?

I wouldn't, now most of them could I think identify it as a whatchamacallit with all the eyeballs but knowing that the eyeballs are magical I think is likely rarer information.

Aren't all knowledge skills usable untrained?

Kindof, but only for common knowledge.

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

I would say antimagic is likely not common knowledge - and magic eyeballs (let alone specific spells from them) might not be either.

[Yanisa]

Kindof, but only for common knowledge.

An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

I would say antimagic is likely not common knowledge - and magic eyeballs (let alone specific spells from them) might not be either.

To make it more rule like, the check to indentyfing monsters is

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

I don't know the "eye ball monster" hit die from the top of my head, but it's higher than 0. Thus requires a check higher then 10, and requires points in knowledge.

[danielxcutter]

Beholders by default are CR 13 and have 11 HD, for what it's worth. Yeah, probably too high for an untrained check. Do the dwarf racial substitution levels give that skill?

[dancrilis]

Beholders by default are CR 13 and have 11 HD, for what it's worth. Yeah, probably too high for an untrained check. Do the dwarf racial substitution levels give that skill?

If you are talking about the Dwarf Paragon then yes - but it could also merely be taken as a cross class skill so I don't think we need to account for its class/cross class status.

[danielxcutter]

Nnnnno not that. Races of Stone has racial substitution levels for some classes - I wonder if the cleric ones have Knowledge(Dungeoneering) though.

[Jasdoif]

Nnnnno not that. Races of Stone has racial substitution levels for some classes - I wonder if the cleric ones have Knowledge(Dungeoneering) though.

They do, yes.

Dwarf cleric substitution levels have the class skills of the standard cleric class plus Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int).

[TooSoon]

If we are discounting the rules then we are discounting the rules so shouldn't be then making rules based arguements for a higher level.

If we are applying the rules then we have a number of choices for caster level 21 of which being level 20 seems less likely then having a feat, or an item, or having cast the spell multiple times - and as such no reason for level increase exists.

We're not discounting the rules. We are applying Telepathic Bond perfectly to peg V's level. We are discounting a wholly separate rule which Rich screwed up about familiar spell links. This is the most rules consistent approach (other than listing V as level 20) because it handwaves only 1 rule, not 2. To look at what is most rules consistent:

1. Waving no rule (V is level 20)
2. Waving 1 rule (V is level 17+)
3. Waving 2 rules (V is still level 16+, and btw why no plus sign on the entry?)

I personally prefer option 2, because I think we can show some common sense RE: level 20, and the authors intent, but if people want to be rules lawyers level 20 is fine too, and technically within the rules of the thread that is what we should do.

[dancrilis]

I think we are onto a more interesting conversation now that might actually have impact and that hasn't already been discussed and decided on relating to three characters - so spoilering the response.

Spoiler

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We're not discounting the rules. We are applying Telepathic Bond perfectly to peg V's level. We are discounting a wholly separate rule which Rich screwed up about familiar spell links. This is the most rules consistent approach (other than listing V as level 20) because it handwaves only 1 rule, not 2. To look at what is most rules consistent:

1. Waving no rule (V is level 20)
2. Waving 1 rule (V is level 17+)
3. Waving 2 rules (V is still level 16+, and btw why no plus sign on the entry?)

I personally prefer option 2, because I think we can show some common sense RE: level 20, and the authors intent, but if people want to be rules lawyers level 20 is fine too, and technically within the rules of the thread that is what we should do.

On 2 we handwave the rule for familiars.
On 3 we handwave the rule on targets.

They are both one rule being ignored they are just seperate rules.

Seperately we don't need to handwave any rule for caster level 21 multiple options have been provided for that - seperately we don't need to have a caster level of 21 as multiple options have been provided for that (some I dislike but they have been provided).

[TooSoon]

I think we are onto a more interesting conversation now that might actually have impact and that hasn't already been discussed and decided on relating to three characters - so spoilering the response.

Spoiler

Show

On 2 we handwave the rule for familiars.
On 3 we handwave the rule on targets.

They are both one rule being ignored they are just seperate rules.

Seperately we don't need to handwave any rule for caster level 21 multiple options have been provided for that - seperately we don't need to have a caster level of 21 as multiple options have been provided for that (some I dislike but they have been provided).

I'm glad you now think this will have an impact and we can potentially change V's level, but I gotta say this is not some new point. I've been making this exact point since I started pushing for this on this thread. I guess numbering it 1, 2 and 3 made it easier to understand or something?

[dancrilis]

I'm glad you now think this will have an impact and we can potentially change V's level, but I gotta say this is not some new point. I've been making this exact point since I started pushing for this on this thread. I guess numbering it 1, 2 and 3 made it easier to understand or something?

I don't know what you are saying here we have moved onto Knowledge (Dungeoneering) for Vaarsuvius and possibly Durkon and Elan.

Spoiler: On the earlier topic

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The fact you admit that Vaarsuvius's level is not a new point after a decision was made indicated you know that the decision was made, if you want to move the discussion on that you would need to provide something new to the discussion

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[TooSoon]

I don't know what you are saying here we have moved onto Knowledge (Dungeoneering) for Vaarsuvius and possibly Durkon and Elan.

Spoiler: On the earlier topic

Show

The fact you admit that Vaarsuvius's level is not a new point after a decision was made indicated you know that the decision was made, if you want to move the discussion on that you would need to provide something new to the discussion

.

My bad. I thought I was making some progress with you. I'll focus on discussing this with others.

[danielxcutter]

Couldn’t some of the dwarf racial levels actually work? I remember that one trades a slot for proficiency in warhammers at 2nd level I think? Pretty sure you don’t have to take all the substitution levels though.

[Dion]

Couldn’t some of the dwarf racial levels actually work? I remember that one trades a slot for proficiency in warhammers at 2nd level I think? Pretty sure you don’t have to take all the substitution levels though.

Are we trying to figure out what kind of knowledge check Durkon needed to make to realize that the flying eyeball with extra eyeballs on top was a "monster with the magic eyeballs"?

A trained knowledge check allows you to identify special powers and vulnerabilities.

V probably needed to make a successful check to know the big eye generates the anti magic field.

I'm not convinced Durkon needs to make a knowledge check to to know that flying watchamacallit has magic eyeballs. Magic eyeballs aren't really a special power or vulnerability.

[danielxcutter]

Personally I think so too, but some people think it'd need a trained check. And honestly some of the racial substitution levels WOULD make sense for them to have in general, even if that's irrelevant to this thread.

[Yanisa]

I'm not convinced Durkon needs to make a knowledge check to to know that flying watchamacallit has magic eyeballs. Magic eyeballs aren't really a special power or vulnerability.

How does Durkon know the eyeballs are magic, without the eyeballs displaying magic? It also seems Durkon didn't realize the anti-magic field, the only magic on display, because V is the first one pointing that out. If Durkon didn't recognize the monster, but did recognize the anti-magic field he probably would have stated the monster has a giant eyeball creating said anti-magic field, rather then saying all the monster's eyeballs are magic.
Durkon identified the creature rather then inferred the monster's abilities.

I would even go so far that we might see an aid another happening. Durkon's knowledge helps V's to gains knowledge about the creatures specific abilities.

Also V has dungeoneering, by the same virtue.

Beholders by default are CR 13 and have 11 HD, for what it's worth. Yeah, probably too high for an untrained check. Do the dwarf racial substitution levels give that skill?

Couldn’t some of the dwarf racial levels actually work? I remember that one trades a slot for proficiency in warhammers at 2nd level I think? Pretty sure you don’t have to take all the substitution levels though.

The DC is 21 for a Beholder, so a single rank of dungeoneering is enough with a natural 20. Durkon doesn't have that many skill listed in his statblock, and most aren't maxed, so we also have room for 2 skill points spend on 1 skill rank.

There is no need to assume Durkon has Dungeoneering as a class skill.

[Dion]

How does Durkon know the eyeballs are magic, without the eyeballs displaying magic?.

I have no idea.

But my argument is that “magic eyes” aren’t a special power or vulnerability.

A trained knowledge check gives you specific knowledge of special powers or vulnerabilities (such as “one of the steaks has a disintegrate ray” or “all the stalks can attack in the same round” or “beholders have peanut allergies”).

But Durkon doesn’t seem to know any of the special powers or vulnerabilities of the watchmacallit magic eyeball, so I’d argue he didn’t succeed in a trained knowledge check.

(I do believe that V had to succeed at a a knowledge check of some kind to know the central eyeball has an anti magic effect)

[dancrilis]

But my argument is that “magic eyes” aren’t a special power or vulnerability.

A trained knowledge check gives you specific knowledge of special powers or vulnerabilities

It is also used for identification.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.

Durkon did identify the monster in greater detail then merely its appearance - which I am not sure that the average Int 10 level 1 Commoner would be able to do 55% of the time, i.e an untrained DC 10 check.

Had Durkon said 'monster with all the eyeballs' I think it would be fair to say untrained is likely fair, but with the inclusion of 'magic eyeballs' I think it likely surpasses common knowledge.