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2021-07-22, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
In the monster manual the eyes rays are listed as special attacks. I agree there is a bit vagueness of what you exactly learn when identifying monsters, but Durkon did recognize a special power.
Unless you disagree with the assessment that a special attack is a special power?Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
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2021-07-22, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Is "dragons can fly" going to need a Knowledge check? Legitimate question.
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2021-07-22, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
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2021-07-22, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Given that the thingamajig is a flying ball with eyes, I'm not sure I buy that it's such a great leap to think "magic must be involved". Anything that doesn't have recognisable anatomy pretty much must be magical. (By Beholder standards, a dragon sitting on the ground is positively mundane. Although dragons flying is scarcely more credible than a Beholder.) Given that he can't even name the thing...
Last edited by Reboot; 2021-07-22 at 11:56 AM.
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2021-07-22, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Serious answer. "Need" probably not, ask your DM. Can you learn dragons fly from knowledge? Definitely.
The identifying monster section is literally 4 lines. With no explanation in the DMG or any where else I can find.
Originally Posted by SRD
"Special power" isn't a common term within D&D. (Special abilities, special qualities and special attacks are the three types of "special-phrases" used in monster statblocks. )
"A bit of useful information" is extremely vague.
So I figure that anything listed under a special category (SA & SQ) is a special power and thus is learned on a knowledge check. But I can see the semantic side of things.
On the other hand, flying, and all movements, are listed under speed. Is the speed of a creature a "special power"? No clear answer. Is it a "bit of useful information". Yes, probably.
Thus you can learn that dragons fly trough Knowledge. Does it still require a knowledge check if you have seen a flying dragon (or are currently seeing a flying dragon)? Again, no clear answer.
Nothing in the knowledge states you know the name of the creature. But seriously I do think it's either a joke about, or real issue with trademark. Or it's a really sneaky callback to the first Beholder strip.Last edited by Yanisa; 2021-07-22 at 12:25 PM.
Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
Countdown to Belkar's death and my follow-up count gives us less then 3 weeks left. Poor Belkar.
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What effects allow a saving throw?
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2021-07-22, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
He learned on the side of Elan, who taught him how to recognize a magic mouth. I also agree with Reboot that for strange unrecognizable monsters like this, it's a reasonable default for Durkon to assume magic, even if there are some rare exceptions like Jubilex, a pure non-magical demon lord slug.
Yes, she needed a trained check to remember that floating eyes can generate anti-magic and darkness, but in what skill? Is it really Knowledge: dungeoneering like Living Oxymoron suggested, or is it just Knowledge: arcana or (update) Spellcraft? I don't know what creature type the floating eye has, nor whether Vaarsuvius needs a check matching that creature type or a check about magic.Last edited by b_jonas; 2021-07-22 at 12:32 PM.
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2021-07-22, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
My theory is that V firstly made a successful Knowledge(Arcana) check in 1238 to recognize presence of AMF. Then, V successfully connected Durkon's rather vague description with Beholder ability, which seems to me a successful Knowledge (What the Hell You're Talking About) check
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2021-07-22, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
It's elaborated on in the beginning of Monster Manual V (and adjusted there to have a base of 10+CR instead of 10+HD; though that does bring up the can of worms of the legality of attempting to adjust what the PHB says without using errata); and the monsters presented in the book come with tables for what you learn with Knowledge checks.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-07-22, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
I would only discount this explicit fine print of Share Spells because the Giant has shown in the past to hand wave the range limit. In the desert, V shared the spell true seeing with Blackwing and the two of them flew far enough apart (more than 5 feet; about 11 elf feet by my scale) that the spell should have dissipated from Blackwing. So in-universe, the limit on duration spells doesn't exist. Therefore, V is at least level 17 with the Ioun stone bringing him to 18 for the purposes of casting Telepathic Bond on 6 others, plus himself and his familiar.
Last edited by DLcygnet; 2021-07-22 at 01:36 PM.
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2021-07-22, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
It even has a system of DC 15 to identify types/subtypes with a dragon as an example. Nothing in the example lists fly. Delving deeper, flying isn't part of the dragons subtype. Which means not all dragons fly? That leads to whether a dragon can fly or can't fly is a harder check then a DC 15. Weird. Unless it's a CR 4 or lower dragon...
It also changes "special power" to "special ability". In the monster manual special attacks are explained as special abilities. The eye stalks of Beholder are an speciality ability, thus a knowledge check allows one to learn about magic eyes.
I still uphold a dungeoneering check is demonstrated. Durkon both identifies the creature, just not by name, and recalls one useful bit of information. As generalized in the SRD and detailed in MMV, that's what a knowledge check gives you, a useful bit of information that is a special power/special abilityLast edited by Yanisa; 2021-07-22 at 01:41 PM.
Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
Countdown to Belkar's death and my follow-up count gives us less then 3 weeks left. Poor Belkar.
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What effects allow a saving throw?
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2021-07-22, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-07-22, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Beholders' monster type is aberration. This is explicitly listed under Knowledge (Dungeoneering). Assuming beholders have 10-17 hit dice (speculative)... it would be a challenge (Knowledge Check 20-27) for any of them to remember more than 1 fact about the beholder.
EDIT: Why doesn't Durkon have an Intelligence score in the first post? Anybody have a guess?Last edited by DLcygnet; 2021-07-22 at 02:50 PM.
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2021-07-22, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Vaarsuvius and Blackwing might be in adjacent 5 foot cubes in 692 which is normally what is meant by within 5 foot, seperately in 691 there is obviously a gap between panel 4 and 5 (to account for Belker moving) so it is possible that Vaarsuvius cast true seeing on blackwing off panel.
There is no reason to assume that the rules were broken then either.
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2021-07-22, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Even if that were the case, and they were using diagonal squares/cubes instead of hexes, by the Pythagorean theorem, they would still be within 7.071 feet of each other. They exceeded that distance.
Last edited by DLcygnet; 2021-07-22 at 03:05 PM.
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2021-07-22, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-22 at 03:37 PM.
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2021-07-22, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2021-07-22, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Best guess, someone tried to update it when Durkon was devampified, and accidentally deleted it. Greg had their score listed as ~12, and pre-vamp Durkon had their score as ~10 (no evidence). It should currently be listed as ~10 (no evidence).
Last edited by Ortho; 2021-07-22 at 04:14 PM.
The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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2021-07-22, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-22, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
This ^
I even held a ruler up to my screen just to be sure. 11 Elf feet, diagonally.
EDIT: Again, I think it's the beneficial version of unintended side effects from being a familiar in this world. And I hope V finds a way to redeem himself so Blackwing doesn't end up in some sort of Neutral Evil afterlife because of his master's actions.Last edited by DLcygnet; 2021-07-22 at 06:31 PM.
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2021-07-22, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
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2021-07-22, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
No, that's the weaker objection because:
1) We didn't see him do it,
2) It seemingly wouldn't even work, and
3) We only assume that when we need to because a single casting won't work within the rules. So in the case of Durkon wind walking for eg, we knew it was all but impossible for Durkon to be level 18 at that point, so it was the most rules consistent to assume multiple castings. In the case of V not only is it possible that they are level 17, but it is exactly what we should expect given the time and events since they proved level 16.
The objection for listing V as level 17+ is now resolved. We should change their stat block now. The rules of the thread are clear. We assume the ordinary operation of the rules unless the Giant says otherwise or it's not possible for them to work that way. Here it's clear proof that V is level 17+, using the standard of proof that this thread has accepted in the past.Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-07-22 at 06:53 PM.
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2021-07-22, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Spoiler: Odd conversation
No one is talking about Vaarsuvius being level 17 we are talking about if between panel 4 and 5 of 692 Vaarsuvius could have cast True Seeing on Blackwing - nothing seems against that possibility, ignoring that a five foot step in DnD might have brought them into the same square.
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2021-07-22, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-07-23, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Possibility: V is CL17th, but has no space for ninth level spells in their spellbook, or scribed extra spells of a lower level which were more useful (I'd suggest Gnome-style Telepathic Bond with targets=cl/2 and free familiar inclusion as a 7th level spell, but that'd be facetious)
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2021-07-23, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
V hasn't used any 8th level spells yet either. But we accept he's level 16 due to the specified 34 hour duration of a 7th level spell, Forcecage. V probably has a couple 8th and at least one 9th level spell, but has either been energy drained to the point of not being able to use them, or keeping them in reserve thanks to his new worldview, or The Giant hasn't needed them for the plot yet. Not that the Giant wouldn't totally make up a Gnomish Telepathic Bond... that's funny right there.
Can somebody help me find the Giant's comment on how he's perpetually having to come up with creative ways to hamstring or pull V out of the story (Because Wizard) to avoid solving all the plot problems with a single spell? The index has changed a lot and now I can't find it anymore.
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2021-07-23, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Didn't V use Mind Blank? I thought that was an 8th level spell.
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2021-07-23, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Except for Power Word Stun which was used to show they were level 15, or Mind Blank (twice) which could justify level 16.
Can somebody help me find the Giant's comment on how he's perpetually having to come up with creative ways to hamstring or pull V out of the story (Because Wizard) to avoid solving all the plot problems with a single spell? The index has changed a lot and now I can't find it anymore.
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2021-07-23, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Assume V is level 17. Then V gets two level 17 spells.
1 should be evocation. The SRD/PHB has a grand total of two choices, Meteor Swarm and Crushing Hand. The hand spell can be used for multiple things, and fits well with V and is more party friendly not just blast everything style than Meteor Swarm.
If V is level 17 then V has Crushing Hand as one spell, and we will never notice till V needs something from a hand that Clenched Fist can't do.
V's second level 17 spell? The best choice three core choices are Shapechange, Gate, and Astral Projection. Gate and Astral Projection are both from banned schools and Shapechange had a very prominent role in certain very unpleasant events that V may want to avoid thinking about V's association with.
Which leaves Wish and Disjunction of the really good level 9s.
Wish would be the spell that takes an ADDITIONAL 5,000 XP to cast. You can't cast the spell if it would drop your XP below that needed for your current level. So V can't cast it even if it is in the book.
And I'm not clear on when V would have cast Disjunction if V has it. (It's a likely spellcast at the climax to take down the Phylactery's defenses or to destroy the Red Cloak, but so far, there's been no recent time when it would have made sense).
Failure to cast level 9s is not a good argument against level 17. Mind, I don't think number of targets is a good argument for level 17, but V's level 9s are almost sure to be underwhelming except maybe for Wish or Disjunction.
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2021-07-23, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
The topic has indeed come up in book commentary a few times; the one I was thinking of is in War and XPs (not in a medium accessible for free thus ineligible for inclusion in the Index of the Giant's Comments). Standard fee for non-forum lookups is 25gp; or the equivalent in XP, primal essence, amethyst or hepatizon.
Spoiler: War and XPs CommentaryOriginally Posted by War and XPs commentary, opposite 412 and 442
There also a more oblique post on the subject in a thread about Vaarsuvius being "constantly benched".
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2021-07-23, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert
Oh, and Disjunction is also associated with the things V isn’t proud about.
V has about 0 chance of picking Meteor Swarm honestly, since they saw Xykon blast himself with one and be perfectly fine.
Also Shades would be a great spell for V. Which is probably why V won’t be learning it.
Foresight’s a great buff, at least.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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