Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Yanisa]

But my argument is that “magic eyes” aren’t a special power or vulnerability.

In the monster manual the eyes rays are listed as special attacks. I agree there is a bit vagueness of what you exactly learn when identifying monsters, but Durkon did recognize a special power.

Unless you disagree with the assessment that a special attack is a special power?

[danielxcutter]

Is "dragons can fly" going to need a Knowledge check? Legitimate question.

[dancrilis]

Is "dragons can fly" going to need a Knowledge check? Legitimate question.

Probably not, but that black dragons can swim and blue dragons can burrow likely does.

Even if it was decided that Dragons flying did require a test it likely would be DC 10 or less - assuming the dragon in question has wings.

[Reboot]

Given that the thingamajig is a flying ball with eyes, I'm not sure I buy that it's such a great leap to think "magic must be involved". Anything that doesn't have recognisable anatomy pretty much must be magical. (By Beholder standards, a dragon sitting on the ground is positively mundane. Although dragons flying is scarcely more credible than a Beholder.) Given that he can't even name the thing...

[Yanisa]

Is "dragons can fly" going to need a Knowledge check? Legitimate question.

Serious answer. "Need" probably not, ask your DM. Can you learn dragons fly from knowledge? Definitely.

The identifying monster section is literally 4 lines. With no explanation in the DMG or any where else I can find.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Two things of note:
"Special power" isn't a common term within D&D. (Special abilities, special qualities and special attacks are the three types of "special-phrases" used in monster statblocks. )
"A bit of useful information" is extremely vague.

So I figure that anything listed under a special category (SA & SQ) is a special power and thus is learned on a knowledge check. But I can see the semantic side of things.

On the other hand, flying, and all movements, are listed under speed. Is the speed of a creature a "special power"? No clear answer. Is it a "bit of useful information". Yes, probably.

Thus you can learn that dragons fly trough Knowledge. Does it still require a knowledge check if you have seen a flying dragon (or are currently seeing a flying dragon)? Again, no clear answer.

Given that he can't even name the thing...

Nothing in the knowledge states you know the name of the creature. But seriously I do think it's either a joke about, or real issue with trademark. Or it's a really sneaky callback to the first Beholder strip.

[b_jonas]

How does Durkon know the eyeballs are magic,

He learned on the side of Elan, who taught him how to recognize a magic mouth. I also agree with Reboot that for strange unrecognizable monsters like this, it's a reasonable default for Durkon to assume magic, even if there are some rare exceptions like Jubilex, a pure non-magical demon lord slug.

V probably needed to make a successful check to know the big eye generates the anti magic field.

Yes, she needed a trained check to remember that floating eyes can generate anti-magic and darkness, but in what skill? Is it really Knowledge: dungeoneering like Living Oxymoron suggested, or is it just Knowledge: arcana or (update) Spellcraft? I don't know what creature type the floating eye has, nor whether Vaarsuvius needs a check matching that creature type or a check about magic.

[Mike Havran]

He learned on the side of Elan, who taught him how to recognize a magic mouth. I also agree with Reboot that for strange unrecognizable monsters like this, it's a reasonable default for Durkon to assume magic, even if there are some rare exceptions like Jubilex, a pure non-magical demon lord slug.

Yes, she needed a trained check to remember that floating eyes can generate anti-magic and darkness, but in what skill? Is it really Knowledge: dungeoneering like Living Oxymoron suggested, or is it just Knowledge: arcana or (update) Spellcraft? I don't know what creature type the floating eye has, nor whether Vaarsuvius needs a check matching that creature type or a check about magic.

My theory is that V firstly made a successful Knowledge(Arcana) check in 1238 to recognize presence of AMF. Then, V successfully connected Durkon's rather vague description with Beholder ability, which seems to me a successful Knowledge (What the Hell You're Talking About) check

[Jasdoif]

Serious answer. "Need" probably not, ask your DM. Can you learn dragons fly from knowledge? Definitely.

The identifying monster section is literally 4 lines. With no explanation in the DMG or any where else I can find.

It's elaborated on in the beginning of Monster Manual V (and adjusted there to have a base of 10+CR instead of 10+HD; though that does bring up the can of worms of the legality of attempting to adjust what the PHB says without using errata); and the monsters presented in the book come with tables for what you learn with Knowledge checks.

[DLcygnet]

If we are discounting the rules then we are discounting the rules so shouldn't be then making rules based arguements for a higher level.

If we are applying the rules then we have a number of choices for caster level 21 of which being level 20 seems less likely then having a feat, or an item, or having cast the spell multiple times - and as such no reason for level increase exists.

I would only discount this explicit fine print of Share Spells because the Giant has shown in the past to hand wave the range limit. In the desert, V shared the spell true seeing with Blackwing and the two of them flew far enough apart (more than 5 feet; about 11 elf feet by my scale) that the spell should have dissipated from Blackwing. So in-universe, the limit on duration spells doesn't exist. Therefore, V is at least level 17 with the Ioun stone bringing him to 18 for the purposes of casting Telepathic Bond on 6 others, plus himself and his familiar.

[Yanisa]

It's elaborated on in the beginning of Monster Manual V (and adjusted there to have a base of 10+CR instead of 10+HD; though that does bring up the can of worms of the legality of attempting to adjust what the PHB says without using errata); and the monsters presented in the book come with tables for what you learn with Knowledge checks.

It even has a system of DC 15 to identify types/subtypes with a dragon as an example. Nothing in the example lists fly. Delving deeper, flying isn't part of the dragons subtype. Which means not all dragons fly? That leads to whether a dragon can fly or can't fly is a harder check then a DC 15. Weird. Unless it's a CR 4 or lower dragon...

It also changes "special power" to "special ability". In the monster manual special attacks are explained as special abilities. The eye stalks of Beholder are an speciality ability, thus a knowledge check allows one to learn about magic eyes.

I still uphold a dungeoneering check is demonstrated. Durkon both identifies the creature, just not by name, and recalls one useful bit of information. As generalized in the SRD and detailed in MMV, that's what a knowledge check gives you, a useful bit of information that is a special power/special ability

[Jasdoif]

It even has a system of DC 15 to identify types/subtypes with a dragon as an example. Nothing in the example lists fly. Delving deeper, flying isn't part of the dragons subtype. Which means not all dragons fly? That leads to whether a dragon can fly or can't fly is a harder check then a DC 15. Weird. Unless it's a CR 4 or lower dragon...

Landwyrms don't fly, no.

[DLcygnet]

Yes, she needed a trained check to remember that floating eyes can generate anti-magic and darkness, but in what skill? Is it really Knowledge: dungeoneering like Living Oxymoron suggested, or is it just Knowledge: arcana or (update) Spellcraft? I don't know what creature type the floating eye has, nor whether Vaarsuvius needs a check matching that creature type or a check about magic.

Beholders' monster type is aberration. This is explicitly listed under Knowledge (Dungeoneering). Assuming beholders have 10-17 hit dice (speculative)... it would be a challenge (Knowledge Check 20-27) for any of them to remember more than 1 fact about the beholder.

EDIT: Why doesn't Durkon have an Intelligence score in the first post? Anybody have a guess?

[dancrilis]

I would only discount this explicit fine print of Share Spells because the Giant has shown in the past to hand wave the range limit. In the desert, V shared the spell true seeing with Blackwing and the two of them flew far enough apart (more than 5 feet; about 11 elf feet by my scale) that the spell should have dissipated from Blackwing. So in-universe, the limit on duration spells doesn't exist. Therefore, V is at least level 17 with the Ioun stone bringing him to 18 for the purposes of casting Telepathic Bond on 6 others, plus himself and his familiar.

Vaarsuvius and Blackwing might be in adjacent 5 foot cubes in 692 which is normally what is meant by within 5 foot, seperately in 691 there is obviously a gap between panel 4 and 5 (to account for Belker moving) so it is possible that Vaarsuvius cast true seeing on blackwing off panel.

There is no reason to assume that the rules were broken then either.

[DLcygnet]

Vaarsuvius and Blackwing might be in adjacent 5 foot cubes in 692 which is normally what is meant by within 5 foot, seperately in 691 there is obviously a gap between panel 4 and 5 (to account for Belker moving) so it is possible that Vaarsuvius cast true seeing on blackwing off panel.

There is no reason to assume that the rules were broken then either.

Even if that were the case, and they were using diagonal squares/cubes instead of hexes, by the Pythagorean theorem, they would still be within 7.071 feet of each other. They exceeded that distance.

[TooSoon]

Vaarsuvius and Blackwing might be in adjacent 5 foot cubes in 692 which is normally what is meant by within 5 foot, seperately in 691 there is obviously a gap between panel 4 and 5 (to account for Belker moving) so it is possible that Vaarsuvius cast true seeing on blackwing off panel.

There is no reason to assume that the rules were broken then either.

I agree with him. It seems the in-universe precedent is that the 5 foot limit doesn't apply, so we now have no problem pegging V at level 17. The main objection has been removed.

[InvisibleBison]

I would only discount this explicit fine print of Share Spells because the Giant has shown in the past to hand wave the range limit. In the desert, V shared the spell true seeing with Blackwing and the two of them flew far enough apart (more than 5 feet; about 11 elf feet by my scale) that the spell should have dissipated from Blackwing. So in-universe, the limit on duration spells doesn't exist. Therefore, V is at least level 17 with the Ioun stone bringing him to 18 for the purposes of casting Telepathic Bond on 6 others, plus himself and his familiar.

How did you get 11 feet? According to my measurements, the distance between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing in the first panel of 692 is approximately equal to Vaarsuvius's height.

[Ortho]

EDIT: Why doesn't Durkon have an Intelligence score in the first post? Anybody have a guess?

Best guess, someone tried to update it when Durkon was devampified, and accidentally deleted it. Greg had their score listed as ~12, and pre-vamp Durkon had their score as ~10 (no evidence). It should currently be listed as ~10 (no evidence).

[TooSoon]

How did you get 11 feet? According to my measurements, the distance between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing in the first panel of 692 is approximately equal to Vaarsuvius's height.

Check out the 2nd panel.

[DLcygnet]

Check out the 2nd panel.

This ^
I even held a ruler up to my screen just to be sure. 11 Elf feet, diagonally.

EDIT: Again, I think it's the beneficial version of unintended side effects from being a familiar in this world. And I hope V finds a way to redeem himself so Blackwing doesn't end up in some sort of Neutral Evil afterlife because of his master's actions.

[dancrilis]

Even if that were the case, and they were using diagonal squares/cubes instead of hexes, by the Pythagorean theorem, they would still be within 7.071 feet of each other. They exceeded that distance.

Pythagorean theorem doesn't apply as the players handbook allows a five foot step to be diagonal, and frankly of the two options I gave I think that was the weaker one - the stronger one is that Vaarsuvius could simple have cast the spell twice.

[TooSoon]

Pythagorean theorem doesn't apply as the players handbook allows a five foot step to be diagonal, and frankly of the two options I gave I think that was the weaker one - the stronger one is that Vaarsuvius could simple have cast the spell twice.

No, that's the weaker objection because:
1) We didn't see him do it,
2) It seemingly wouldn't even work, and
3) We only assume that when we need to because a single casting won't work within the rules. So in the case of Durkon wind walking for eg, we knew it was all but impossible for Durkon to be level 18 at that point, so it was the most rules consistent to assume multiple castings. In the case of V not only is it possible that they are level 17, but it is exactly what we should expect given the time and events since they proved level 16.

The objection for listing V as level 17+ is now resolved. We should change their stat block now. The rules of the thread are clear. We assume the ordinary operation of the rules unless the Giant says otherwise or it's not possible for them to work that way. Here it's clear proof that V is level 17+, using the standard of proof that this thread has accepted in the past.

[dancrilis]

snip.

Spoiler: Odd conversation

Show

No one is talking about Vaarsuvius being level 17 we are talking about if between panel 4 and 5 of 692 Vaarsuvius could have cast True Seeing on Blackwing - nothing seems against that possibility, ignoring that a five foot step in DnD might have brought them into the same square.

[TooSoon]

Spoiler: Odd conversation

Show

No one is talking about Vaarsuvius being level 17 we are talking about if between panel 4 and 5 of 692 Vaarsuvius could have cast True Seeing on Blackwing - nothing seems against that possibility, ignoring that a five foot step in DnD might have brought them into the same square.

There is no indication that is the case though from the comic as depicted.

[Riftwolf]

Possibility: V is CL17th, but has no space for ninth level spells in their spellbook, or scribed extra spells of a lower level which were more useful (I'd suggest Gnome-style Telepathic Bond with targets=cl/2 and free familiar inclusion as a 7th level spell, but that'd be facetious)

[DLcygnet]

Possibility: V is CL17th, but has no space for ninth level spells in their spellbook, or scribed extra spells of a lower level which were more useful (I'd suggest Gnome-style Telepathic Bond with targets=cl/2 and free familiar inclusion as a 7th level spell, but that'd be facetious)

V hasn't used any 8th level spells yet either. But we accept he's level 16 due to the specified 34 hour duration of a 7th level spell, Forcecage. V probably has a couple 8th and at least one 9th level spell, but has either been energy drained to the point of not being able to use them, or keeping them in reserve thanks to his new worldview, or The Giant hasn't needed them for the plot yet. Not that the Giant wouldn't totally make up a Gnomish Telepathic Bond... that's funny right there.

Can somebody help me find the Giant's comment on how he's perpetually having to come up with creative ways to hamstring or pull V out of the story (Because Wizard) to avoid solving all the plot problems with a single spell? The index has changed a lot and now I can't find it anymore.

[dmc91356]

Didn't V use Mind Blank? I thought that was an 8th level spell.

[dancrilis]

V hasn't used any 8th level spells yet either.

Except for Power Word Stun which was used to show they were level 15, or Mind Blank (twice) which could justify level 16.

Can somebody help me find the Giant's comment on how he's perpetually having to come up with creative ways to hamstring or pull V out of the story (Because Wizard) to avoid solving all the plot problems with a single spell? The index has changed a lot and now I can't find it anymore.

I believe that it is in the commentary of 'Don't Split the Party' I don't have that book on hand at the moment but The Giant mentions in 'Blood Runs In The Family' that they mentioned splitting the wizard from the party for power different reasons in the previous book.

[Doug Lampert]

Possibility: V is CL17th, but has no space for ninth level spells in their spellbook, or scribed extra spells of a lower level which were more useful (I'd suggest Gnome-style Telepathic Bond with targets=cl/2 and free familiar inclusion as a 7th level spell, but that'd be facetious)

Assume V is level 17. Then V gets two level 17 spells.

1 should be evocation. The SRD/PHB has a grand total of two choices, Meteor Swarm and Crushing Hand. The hand spell can be used for multiple things, and fits well with V and is more party friendly not just blast everything style than Meteor Swarm.

If V is level 17 then V has Crushing Hand as one spell, and we will never notice till V needs something from a hand that Clenched Fist can't do.

V's second level 17 spell? The best choice three core choices are Shapechange, Gate, and Astral Projection. Gate and Astral Projection are both from banned schools and Shapechange had a very prominent role in certain very unpleasant events that V may want to avoid thinking about V's association with.

Which leaves Wish and Disjunction of the really good level 9s.

Wish would be the spell that takes an ADDITIONAL 5,000 XP to cast. You can't cast the spell if it would drop your XP below that needed for your current level. So V can't cast it even if it is in the book.

And I'm not clear on when V would have cast Disjunction if V has it. (It's a likely spellcast at the climax to take down the Phylactery's defenses or to destroy the Red Cloak, but so far, there's been no recent time when it would have made sense).

Failure to cast level 9s is not a good argument against level 17. Mind, I don't think number of targets is a good argument for level 17, but V's level 9s are almost sure to be underwhelming except maybe for Wish or Disjunction.

[Jasdoif]

Can somebody help me find the Giant's comment on how he's perpetually having to come up with creative ways to hamstring or pull V out of the story (Because Wizard) to avoid solving all the plot problems with a single spell? The index has changed a lot and now I can't find it anymore.

I believe that it is in the commentary of 'Don't Split the Party' I don't have that book on hand at the moment but The Giant mentions in 'Blood Runs In The Family' that they mentioned splitting the wizard from the party for power different reasons in the previous book.

The topic has indeed come up in book commentary a few times; the one I was thinking of is in War and XPs (not in a medium accessible for free thus ineligible for inclusion in the Index of the Giant's Comments). Standard fee for non-forum lookups is 25gp; or the equivalent in XP, primal essence, amethyst or hepatizon.

Spoiler: War and XPs Commentary

Show

One of the prime offenders in this area was Vaarsuvius. The unfortunate truth is that a high-level D&D wizard is enormously powerful and can manage effects that would have nullified most of the plot twists I had planned. A wizard could have blasted Xykon from afar or given Roy a flying spell (or at least a feather fall), all of which would have derailed my planned death scene. If I had created the physics of the OOTS world from scratch, I would simply not have given Vaarsuvius any capabilities that could interfere with the plot, but one of the great writing obstacles I face is that it is the game rules that set the boundarties of my characters' power. My readers know what a wizard of V's level should be able to pull off, and when he/she fails to display such powers in a do-or-die situation, they (rightly) cry foul. And so I wanted V out of the way of the others. I still wanted him/her to get the chance to unleash his/her magic on the battlefield to full effect--just, you know, over there. The opening salvo (the titanium elementals) therefore effectively separates V from the rest of the party, and they remain apart for the rest of the battle.

There also a more oblique post on the subject in a thread about Vaarsuvius being "constantly benched".

You know, I don't like the idea of some powers being labeled as story-breaking. Ever since I got introduced to the concept, I had in mind a good counter for it.

One of my favorite books has all major characters, including the protagonist,
1) being able to fly as easily as walk;
2) never needing money because they can create anything they need out of thin air, except for food, but it's not hard to get it;
3) having very high positions in their societies;
4) being quite capable Reality Warpers, albeit in different ways;
5) being able to communicate telepatically with emphatical images, not words;
6) having teleport powers.
Oh, and resurrection is avaliable in that universe too, restrictions on its use are mostly ethical/cultural.

It's a trilogy (not just one book!), and it's very, very interesting. NEITHER of these powers is story-breaking. No, not even reality warping and resurrection. Seriously. There is story to tell even with them.

There is a huge difference between EVERY main character having such powers, and ONLY ONE main character in a group of supposed equals having such powers. There is no power—no power in the world—that is story-breaking all by itself, especially if the author has the freedom to detail the costs and drawbacks of that power (a luxury I don't have with OOTS).

Superman by himself is not a problem. Superman as part of the Justice League is not a problem. Superman as a member of an ensemble FBI team IS a problem, because sometimes Agent Fred is supposed to be the one to catch the serial killer. You end up resorting to a LOT of kryptonite.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and Disjunction is also associated with the things V isn’t proud about.

V has about 0 chance of picking Meteor Swarm honestly, since they saw Xykon blast himself with one and be perfectly fine.

Also Shades would be a great spell for V. Which is probably why V won’t be learning it.

Foresight’s a great buff, at least.