Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Metastachydium]

Probably. Although I'd quite definitely rank her above Logann, Chuck, Jenny and freakin' Yokyok.

[danielxcutter]

Probably. Although I'd quite definitely rank her above Logann, Chuck, Jenny and freakin' Yokyok.

Fair. Seriously, I barely remember half of those names...

[Metastachydium]

I know, right?
#JusticeForVeldrina!

[Riftwolf]

Possible typo: Gontor Hammerfalls entry only reads 'Hammerfall', and he should be listed as deceased.

I'd also argue Veldrina not having an entry while Jenny does is a shocking oversight.

[dancrilis]

Probably. Although I'd quite definitely rank her above Logann, Chuck, Jenny and freakin' Yokyok.

Yokyok was an Linear Guild member there is a lower bar for entry for the others that is likely fair - and on that note I think Grewview should have an entry (we have one for Blackwing and Mr. Scruffy after all).

For that matter to have an adult son Yikyik would seem to have been 12+ from Races of the Dragon, which is listed as one of our sourcebooks for this topic.

[Yanisa]

(Just wondering: why doesn't Veldrina have an entry yet? We know her sex (female), race (elf), class (favored soul), level (14+ to be capable of casting 7th level spells), her Cha score (17+ to be capable of casting 7th level spells), we have a list of earthly possessions (armour, boots, holy symbol, scroll of Wind Walk), we know she has ranks in Knowledge (religion) (to know as much about vampires as she does (v. negative particle vawe interference etc.)) and we know she knows Sending.)

From the FAQ

Q: Which characters are included in this thread?
(1) All named members of the Order, Team Evil, the Linear Guild, the Order of the Scribble, and the Vector Legion.
(2) Any frequently occurring character, as noted in the Character Appearances thread. Note that this includes Samantha: it was easier to be a common character back when the comic was shorter. We don't unlist characters just because they've died.
(3) Family members of the main characters, as long as we have something to write about them.

Veldrina currently has 14(ish) appearances. The current listing for frequent* is 30-60. So that's the cold hard logic rule based reason she isn't included.

*Frequent characters has been renamed to secondary characters, but never updated in the FAQ of this thread.

Edit; I just realized I compared Veldrina to all strips so far, in stead of the strips when she appeared (like Samantha and Jenny). For fairness: Back in 2012 the Frequent character was also 30-60, Veldrina doesn't appear on that list, so even before she entered the comic, the minimal threshold was 30 appearances. Which she never made.

Besides that, I don't have a problem with listing Veldrina, but I do get why there is a line drawn, and why she is excluded.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think we also excluded her because as the Patreon cameo she's actually somebody's character.

[Metastachydium]

From the FAQ


Veldrina currently has 14(ish) appearances. The current listing for frequent* is 30-60. So that's the cold hard logic rule based reason she isn't included.

*Frequent characters has been renamed to secondary characters, but never updated in the FAQ of this thread.

Edit; I just realized I compared Veldrina to all strips so far, in stead of the strips when she appeared (like Samantha and Jenny). For fairness: Back in 2012 the Frequent character was also 30-60, Veldrina doesn't appear on that list, so even before she entered the comic, the minimal threshold was 30 appearances. Which she never made.

Besides that, I don't have a problem with listing Veldrina, but I do get why there is a line drawn, and why she is excluded.

The problem is that the line is not drawn with sufficient consistency: Logann (apparently) only has some 4 more appearences than Veldrina (and much less impact), while Chuck and Jenny lag way behind her.

I think we also excluded her because as the Patreon cameo she's actually somebody's character.

That's a fair point, but I don't think there is a rule against including such characters (mostly since there are no other characters like this).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Logann is included in item 4: Family members.

[Metastachydium]

Technically, he's listed under family and other characters, as are Chuck and Jenny.

[Yanisa]

Technically, he's listed under family and other characters, as are Chuck and Jenny.

Chuck and Jenny are a bit weirder (unless you see Jenny as a significant other for Belkar), but like the Samantha example in the FAQ: It was easier to become a more frequent character earlier in the comic. For example when they started to appear, Bozzok himself also only had 12 appearances. (Also the rules might have been different back then, when there were less characters with 5+ appearances.)

Another factor, I am guessing, is that we didn't know the impact these character would have on the story. In contrast the moment Veldrina was introduced we knew she was a cameo character who would only be very shortly in the comic.

Besides that, one could argue that the Thief Guild, even with small appearance, is a major of Haley's background, including being a large part of the prequel-book. We could even call them her "family", but that is a argument more for Bozzok then any others. (The real question is, why isn't Bozzok listed, but two throw-away henchpersons did make the cut. I might dive in some old discussions later.)

I get why these things have happened, but now years later they stick out. Veldrina will have the same faith when the comic starts to reach numbers as 1500 and possibly 1800, many years from now.

[Schroeswald]

The actual answer for why Chuck and Jenny were added isn’t the Samantha loophole, it’s that a bit back people felt like putting together some stats for the less important characters to see if we could and we found a decently sized stat block on them. This was like last thread if I remember correctly, if we had enough stats on Veldrina I think we’d probably add her.

[Kornaki]

It seems like there should at least be one link for Chuck and Jenny so you can know who the heck they are.

[Yanisa]

The actual answer for why Chuck and Jenny were added isn’t the Samantha loophole, it’s that a bit back people felt like putting together some stats for the less important characters to see if we could and we found a decently sized stat block on them. This was like last thread if I remember correctly, if we had enough stats on Veldrina I think we’d probably add her.

I stand corrected, must have missed that in the last thread.

Anyhow, Metastachydium put up stats for Veldrina, that is what sparked the questions.

[Wildstag]

Were Veldrina to have stats, I feel like that block is missing a rather important feat, but then we'd have to consider that Wild Cohort is in play rather than Veldrina just having immense ranks in Handle Animal and a pet Tiger that really shouldn't be able to be a pet.

[Yanisa]

Were Veldrina to have stats, I feel like that block is missing a rather important feat, but then we'd have to consider that Wild Cohort is in play rather than Veldrina just having immense ranks in Handle Animal and a pet Tiger that really shouldn't be able to be a pet.

There is in D&D no real difference* between a cat and tiger when it comes to handle animal. If we assume the tiger was domesticated by another person*, it would only be a DC 10 in order to command the tiger. We also see she can't always control her tiger. In order to fail she can't have more then a +8 bonus. Which means with 17 charisma she cannot have more then 5 ranks in handle animal.

Also wild cohort is not needed. What the feat does is increase the stats of the tiger (we lack evidence for that) and makes handle animal easier (while we know Veldrina sucks at handle animal). If we would assume wild cohort, she cannot have more then 3 ranks in handle animal.

*Rearing a wild tiger would be a DC 23 and the only time the species of the animal effects the outcome because the DC is based on hit die. Also this requires at least a 1 rank of Handle animal. Assuming extreme luck, anyone with 14 or more charisma could domestic a kitty tiger. Valdrina could have trained her own tiger, and still be able to fail the basic DC 10 to make the tiger follow commands. She could also have the wild cohort feat. 1 rank of handle animal, +2 from wild cohort and +3 from charisma still means she can fail a dc 10 check.

[Wildstag]

Gonna need another page to help determine if the party is in another dimension or if Team Evil is in another dimension and OotS isn’t, or if both are. At least this confirms Team Evil are trash explorers. They never look for traps, perhaps just expecting damage traps and not harmless traps.

[danielxcutter]

Gonna need another page to help determine if the party is in another dimension or if Team Evil is in another dimension and OotS isn’t, or if both are. At least this confirms Team Evil are trash explorers. They never look for traps, perhaps just expecting damage traps and not harmless traps.

To be fair, they're literally incapable of looking for traps aside from using Detect Magic-type spells, and even that can be fooled.

[RMS Oceanic]

Gonna need another page to help determine if the party is in another dimension or if Team Evil is in another dimension and OotS isn’t, or if both are. At least this confirms Team Evil are trash explorers. They never look for traps, perhaps just expecting damage traps and not harmless traps.

Dunno about another dimension, that would break Telepathic Bond. I think it was a random Gate-type effect and they're still on the material plane.

[hamishspence]

The Order can be on the Material Plane, with the Gate, but with Team Evil having been teleported to a demiplane full of monsters, and no gate.

[danielxcutter]

Dunno about another dimension, that would break Telepathic Bond. I think it was a random Gate-type effect and they're still on the material plane.

Gate explicitly only allows travel between planes, though the Wormhole power that Laurin used or a variation of Teleportation Circle might work.

The Order can be on the Material Plane, with the Gate, but with Team Evil having been teleported to a demiplane full of monsters, and no gate.

It's possible. Making several dozen demiplanes would be pretty expensive, though.

[hamishspence]

It's possible. Making several dozen demiplanes would be pretty expensive, though.

Maybe the big secret is that all the doors lead to only one demiplane, which refreshes itself with monsters each time it's visited?

[danielxcutter]

Maybe the big secret is that all the doors lead to only one demiplane, which refreshes itself with monsters each time it's visited?

Considering that Oona says they usually take a few months, if the demiplane dungeon delving theory is correct then it's likely one with multiple areas that each trap is connected to.

[Metastachydium]

It's possible. Making several dozen demiplanes would be pretty expensive, though.

Wait a second Making demiplanes?

[hamishspence]

Wait a second Making demiplanes?

Yup - all it takes is a 9th Level spell, cast by either an arcane caster or a cleric with the Creation domain:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

There's a psychic power too- but psychic power users are implied to be somewhat rare in OOTS, though present.

[Yanisa]

Yup - all it takes is a 9th Level spell, cast by either an arcane caster or a cleric with the Creation domain:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

There's a psychic power too- but psychic power users are implied to be somewhat rare in OOTS, though present.

It's closer to cheap than expensive too. No material component cost and 5000 XP. About 4 encounters of CR 17 if my math is correct. The real cost is the time it takes.

[danielxcutter]

It's closer to cheap than expensive too. No material component cost and 5000 XP. About 4 encounters of CR 17 if my math is correct. The real cost is the time it takes.

Once or twice could be okay. Once for each door is... less so.

[Emanick]

Once or twice could be okay. Once for each door is... less so.

It's probably one big demiplane. The stone separating each passageway is multidimensional, so it should be able to exist across the planes. In theory, anyway - I'm pretty sure Rich made up multidimensional stone, so it can do whatever he wants it to.

[Yanisa]

Once or twice could be okay. Once for each door is... less so.

Yeah, I also didn't realize that Serine probably hired a wizard. How big are the chance she had another high level sorcerer/wizard friend after the Order of the Scribble drama. Hiring a level 17 caster with a spell of 5000 xp costs 26.530 gold pieces. (5 gold per XP, and 90 gp per caster level.) if there are a thousand doors, the price becomes more than 26 million.

Then again, if there are thousand doors, they also need a thousand days of adventures to gain enough xp. And a CR 17 combat gives 36.000 GP, so 36 million gold. But the wizard who is fighting to gain XP also wants another share of that.

And a thousand castings of Genesis will take 7000 days. ~8000 days is about 22 years. Add another half year because it takes 180 days before a plane reaches full size. (In fact if it's all the same place, it takes a half year per Genesis because of that growth rate. A thousand castings become 500 years.) And we need to deal with the whole building of the dungeons too. And the fact all demiplanes are circles, but all dungeons sound like linear hallways. Maybe some dungeons are shared on the same demiplane, but at some point I need to give up the math.

___

On a completely different note. Is the fact Haley discovered a magic trap in #1219 enough for us to determine a minimum amount of ranks for search? A magic trap has a DC of 25 + spelllevel. Most people compare this to teleportation circle, which is 9th level with a DC of 34. However, it doesn't like like a teleportation circle and we only can assume the lowest possible numbers. So I am going to compare with the level 7 spell, greater teleport, or DC 32.

Haley has a int of 12+. No room for skill feats (in fact she has more feats then possible for her level?) and earlier remarks shows she has ranks, but doesn't see search as a priority. At level 15, max ranks would be 18, but to hit DC 32 she would only need 11 ranks (+1 int) on rolling a twenty.

I would put it a low 10+ ranks, because Haley might have 14 int (Bonus languages, plural), but no more than that.

[MultitudeMan]

Haley has a int of 12+. No room for skill feats (in fact she has more feats then possible for her level?) and earlier remarks shows she has ranks, but doesn't see search as a priority.

I don't think there's a issue with the number of Haley's feats. Her entry lists her with 9 feats known so far. She gets two at level 1 (as human), 5 from levels 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15, and she can take additional feats instead of rogue special abilities (which she qualified for at levels 10, 13 and 16, and I don't she's demonstrated any of those so far) so we've actually got leeway for one more feat or special ability at her present level before she breaks RAW.