Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Squire Doodad]

Octocular Aberration (technically))

(Beast is not a creature type in 3.5e.)

Tsk tsk
The race themselves are known as Octocular Beasts, or Octoculauts.
They are Chaotic Good creatures that draw inspiration from Medusa Heads from Castlevania. In-universe, they are overwhelmingly distant relatives of arthropods, and are thought to be descended from some primeval Wind Spider that developed a more compact body and adapted its limbs into more freely-moving eye stalks.
They are equipped with eight massive eye stalks, and are notable for the faintly glowing hexagonal grid along their body that grows with age (which is nominal when alive, but fades and becomes explicitly visible soon after death). Each is equipped with a randomly determined array of appropriately leveled spells that can range from Flesh to Stone to Prismatic Spray. These are completely random and determined on birth and please use an actual dice roll instead of using preexisting monsters as a base.
Once per month, they can channel energy into their eye and petrify anyone within 40 feet of their line of sight for 2 days with a DC30 save; doing so exhausts the Octocular Beast and renders it unconscious for 5 hours if a child and 1 hour if an adult. At other times, their field of vision may be repeatedly struck with Greater Dispel Magic, which they can cast in a cone making up their field of view at-will twice a round. If chosen, Octocular Beasts may weaken their abilities, having no effect or merely suspending magical effects.
Adults can be easily distinguished by their vast, flowing beards which typically match their body color. These are present on both males and females. However, these are not present on youths, who instead have moderate stubble. The majority of adult Octocular Beast culture is built around these beards, which they groom meticulously and compare at regularly scheduled competitions. It is said a Beast's intellect is directly tied to the quality of their beard, and so a well-kept beard is a sign of a truly honorable Octocular Beast. A lack of a beard or a poorly-managed one is considered to be a "childish" trait.
Octocular Beasts also hold themselves afloat with a series of gaseous tubes that run through the body. While too thin and many to be able to be damaged, they mean the Octocular Beast is indeed functionally a grand mass of organs within a balloon, and one rushing particularly fast up or down is often accompanied with a sound akin to flatulence.

Octocular Beasts are known for their jolly and gregarious nature. While they will vigorously defend their territory as needed, they also are fascinatingly loquacious and will whole-heartedly make small talk with their attackers should they put down their weapons. They also actively receive as many visitors as possible, and are complete gossips. While incredibly rare in most sections of the world, they create vast networks of underground societies with immense population density. Whole days are spent conversing with the neighbors and enjoying small refreshments. Youth are typically raised by their parents, but in the event of orphaning, they will imprint on a nearby Octocular Beast and treat it as their parent. In rare cases, an orphan far from home or in an environment without other Octocular Beasts will imprint on a being that is suitably loquacious.

Thus, as you can see, Sunny is an Octocular Beast, a very distinct creature known for its CG tendencies, lengthy beards, jolly disposition and ability to make farting sounds by flying too quickly. The lack of hexagonal grid or visible stubble is a direct result of the art style, which is too simplistic to make those reasonably visible.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think Haley's dialog in 1243 heavily implies she has ranks in climb.

[danielxcutter]

Climb is one of those skills where you can perfectly make them untrained, and I'm not sure if it's sufficient proof for the purposes of this thread, but I think it makes it considerably likelier yes.

[RMS Oceanic]

Climb is one of those skills where you can perfectly make them untrained, and I'm not sure if it's sufficient proof for the purposes of this thread, but I think it makes it considerably likelier yes.

Actually I think I have a little more proof. It looks like she's climbing a natural rock wall, Which has a DC of 25. It's strength based, so with Haley's maximum strength score she could only roll 24 untrained.

And jumping to the bow without a running start is pretty hard, though I suspect that's harder to nail down.

[Shale]

IMO the proof would be her comment about winning the Second Story championship as a young thief, rather than the climb itself -- what she's describing is training.

[b_jonas]

Can we infer something about Haley's Listen skill from how he managed to locate the invisible Serini?

[Shale]

Probably not -- when an invisible creature is speaking or actively engaged in combat, the DC to pinpoint its exact location with Listen is a flat 20.

[Squire Doodad]

IMO the proof would be her comment about winning the Second Story championship as a young thief, rather than the climb itself -- what she's describing is training.

I agree, she most likely has some points in Climb from that plus the climb itself.

[Peelee]

Actually I think I have a little more proof. It looks like she's climbing a natural rock wall, Which has a DC of 25. It's strength based, so with Haley's maximum strength score she could only roll 24 untrained.

And jumping to the bow without a running start is pretty hard, though I suspect that's harder to nail down.

This is the best argument IMO.

[Quartz]

Does #1243 (specifically panel 6) show that Haley has an active Improved Uncanny Dodge? That would mean that Serini has no more than three rogue levels more than Haley. (Serini may have additional levels in other classes.) I'm not talking about the fact that Serini missed - anyone can roll a 1 - but that Haley has done the splits, showing she is actively dodging while looking away.

[danielxcutter]

I suspect Rich may be ignoring or forgetting the rules, but I dunno. The Scribblers probably weren't terribly high Epic anyways.

[Quartz]

I suspect Rich may be ignoring or forgetting the rules, but I dunno. The Scribblers probably weren't terribly high Epic anyways.

In this thread we assume he isn't forgetting the rules. Anyway, Serini could easily be Rog 19 / Ftr 4 or have some prestige class that doesn't count towards Rogue levels.

[InvisibleBison]

Does #1243 (specifically panel 6) show that Haley has an active Improved Uncanny Dodge? That would mean that Serini has no more than three rogue levels more than Haley. (Serini may have additional levels in other classes.) I'm not talking about the fact that Serini missed - anyone can roll a 1 - but that Haley has done the splits, showing she is actively dodging while looking away.

No, that's regular uncanny dodge allowing her to retain her Dexterity bonus to AC when being attacked by an invisible creature.

[Peelee]

Does #1243 (specifically panel 6) show that Haley has an active Improved Uncanny Dodge? That would mean that Serini has no more than three rogue levels more than Haley. (Serini may have additional levels in other classes.) I'm not talking about the fact that Serini missed - anyone can roll a 1 - but that Haley has done the splits, showing she is actively dodging while looking away.

Looked it up since I'm weak on 3.5 rogues. Wouldn't Haley, being at least a 9th level Rogue, definitely have Improved Uncanny Dodge? And it be irrelevant regardless because she's not being flanked in panel 6?

[Quartz]

Looked it up since I'm weak on 3.5 rogues. Wouldn't Haley, being at least a 9th level Rogue, definitely have Improved Uncanny Dodge? And it be irrelevant regardless because she's not being flanked in panel 6?

Yes, but Improved Uncanny Dodge is negated by having four more levels of Rogue.

[Shale]

To be clear, only the flanking immunity from Improved Uncanny Dodge is negated by an opponent's rogue levels. Regular Uncanny Dodge is always active, even against an epic foe.

[Gurgeh]

To be further clear: Improved Uncanny Dodge wouldn't have any effect in that situation, regardless of whether or not Serini's high-level enough to override it. All it does is prevent flanking, which is something that isn't happening on-panel anyway; Haley's not in melee and doesn't have an ally of Serini's standing next to her.

[danielxcutter]

To be further FURTHER clear, there are alternate class features that let you trade Improved Uncanny Dodge away for something else, so if we didn’t know she had it thanks to the Thieves’ Guild fight we couldn’t have been sure if she had it.

[Timy]

And to be further FURTHER FURTHER clear, I don't know what you are talking about without my book are the SRD so this comment is entirely irrelevant !

[RMS Oceanic]

Would Haley's attempt at Rules Lawyering her way out of obeying Sunny be a demonstration of the Slippery Mind ability?

[Psyren]

Would Haley's attempt at Rules Lawyering her way out of obeying Sunny be a demonstration of the Slippery Mind ability?

I'm not sure. She got the swirly eyes and had to be very specific on her grounds for refusal, which actually indicates that she failed her save, but Sunny's request was poorly thought-out.

[danielxcutter]

The way Charm and Compulsion effects seem to work is the victim trying to justify it to themselves and what breaks it is when they can't.

[Silly Name]

Would Haley's attempt at Rules Lawyering her way out of obeying Sunny be a demonstration of the Slippery Mind ability?

I'd say "no". Slippery Mind allows you a second saving throw on the round after you failed, and A) Haley was trying to rules-lawyer herself out of following the charm, not throwing it off, and B) I find it unlikely it's been a full round between her being hit by the ray and the panel immediately after.

[DLcygnet]

Would Haley's attempt at Rules Lawyering her way out of obeying Sunny be a demonstration of the Slippery Mind ability?

No, this is a legitimate resisting of the charm spell since what Sunny is asking her to do will put her in direct harm again (since the invisible creature is the source of all the arrows that have been fired at her). Plus, Haley has a decent charisma score or would definitely get the bonus to saving throw since they're in combat. And there's precedence for ignoring the initial command when it goes against the subject's nature.

"You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell."

[Metastachydium]

No, this is a legitimate resisting of the charm spell since what Sunny is asking her to do will put her in direct harm again (since the invisible creature is the source of all the arrows that have been fired at her). Plus, Haley has a decent charisma score or would definitely get the bonus to saving throw since they're in combat.

"You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell."

Except she does not argue that Serini will attack her again if she lets go. She argues that she cannot determine whether the unidentifiable creature is Sunny's mother, largely ignoring the threat she poses.

[DLcygnet]

Except she does not argue that Serini will attack her again if she lets go. She argues that she cannot determine whether the unidentifiable creature is Sunny's mother, largely ignoring the threat she poses.

In this case, rule of funny is in effect. Much more entertaining than, "What? No. She'll shoot me again." Rich always defaults to what would make a better story. And she does have a point - the squirming invisible thing probably feels nothing like a behold-whatchamacalit-floating-eyeball thing.

[Metastachydium]

In this case, rule of funny is in effect. Much more entertaining than, "What? No. She'll shoot me again."

That would have been pretty funny (for me; I might not have a very good sense of humour) and it would have gone against expectations (spells work (if the opponent fails a saving throw)) pretty well.

Rich always defaults to what would make a better story. And she does have a point - the squirming invisible thing probably feels nothing like a behold-whatchamacalit-floating-eyeball thing.

Not really. Haley knew exactly who Sunny's referring too (Sunny called Serini mom and she reacted to it, confirming that the moniker denoted the entity with the green voice).

[Squire Doodad]

Not really. Haley knew exactly who Sunny's referring too (Sunny called Serini mom and she reacted to it, confirming that the moniker denoted the entity with the green voice).

That's another softball for Haley.

: You did imply this is your mother, but from what I can tell this is not a Beholder-adjacent entity. I'm sure she could be your adoptive mother, but that would suggest you are an orphan, which would be terribly rude to just guess, and not something I want to assume about a good friend. We're best off making sure she's held steady while we make sure that she is or is not your mother, just to be safe.

[Ephemera]

I don't think it really has stat implications, but I'd say that what we are seeing is Haley making her saving throw, with the "I don't know how much longer I can resist" just being flavor. Obviously she's twisting the intent of the command to be confused, but I think it's a stretch to say that it's putting her in harm.

If "let the bad guys go unmolested" is enough to prompt breaking a charm spell, then the spell is basically worthless--I think we have to assume that part of charm is to believe that the caster's allies are also your friends (unless they attack the subject of the spell), so rightly once Haley is charmed, she ought to believe that Serini isn't a threat to her until Serini attacks her again.

[Ionathus]

I don't think it really has stat implications, but I'd say that what we are seeing is Haley making her saving throw, with the "I don't know how much longer I can resist" just being flavor. Obviously she's twisting the intent of the command to be confused, but I think it's a stretch to say that it's putting her in harm.

If "let the bad guys go unmolested" is enough to prompt breaking a charm spell, then the spell is basically worthless--I think we have to assume that part of charm is to believe that the caster's allies are also your friends (unless they attack the subject of the spell), so rightly once Haley is charmed, she ought to believe that Serini isn't a threat to her until Serini attacks her again.

This is also backed up by the fact that Roy got the swirly-eyes at first during his Godsmoot fight with the HPoH, but then snapped out of it immediately. I think sometimes making a save in OotS is represented as a no-sell (nothing happens, the magic glances off you) and sometimes it's shown as the saver experiencing the effects for a brief moment, but then breaking out of the grip. Whatever is most dramatic in the moment, I suppose.

(This is about 1001, by the way. I think his later Domination during the "how many pieces was Eric in" speech was a bit more legitimate.)