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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I believe Serini is Troll-blooded at this point due to the changes in her voice and her extremities having regenerated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I agree, she most likely has some points in Climb from that plus the climb itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Actually I think I have a little more proof. It looks like she's climbing a natural rock wall, Which has a DC of 25. It's strength based, so with Haley's maximum strength score she could only roll 24 untrained.
    It's worth pointing out she's using the adamantine dagger effectively as a piton. That lowers the DC considerably. With that said, her comments about winning the second-story championship definitely show she has actual ranks in Climb too.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's worth pointing out she's using the adamantine dagger effectively as a piton. That lowers the DC considerably.
    A climber's kit gives only +2 bonus. It might seem strange that equipment specifically designed for climbing barely actually helps you, but remember that D&D is permanently stuck in fantasy mediaeval technology, so they don't have modern lightweight ropes made of synthetic textiles. As for the adamantine dagger, it's probably not magical, so I don't think it will give more of a bonus than a dedicated climber's kit.

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It's worth pointing out she's using the adamantine dagger effectively as a piton. That lowers the DC considerably.
    A climber's kit gives only +2 bonus.
    Making your own handholds lowers the DC to 15.
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  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Correct, this is the one I was referring to.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Dunno...she's repeatedly climbing up and stabbing the dagger into the rock. She manages to catch herself using it while falling, then pull it out, and herself up in panel 4, then puts it back in the rock in panel 6. Even if the dagger qualifies as an artificial handhold, surely the ability to place it securely requires a harder climb check (which takes us back to whether an adamantine dagger could reasonably be supposed to offer a better bonus than a climbing kit).

  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Adamantine weapons can cut through rock like butter. Though I presume that they don’t go with onion bagels that well…
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    (which takes us back to whether an adamantine dagger could reasonably be supposed to offer a better bonus than a climbing kit).
    Not really.

    A climbing kit gives you a +2.

    A hammer and pitons sets the check to 15.

    Using a climbing kit to climb placed pitons makes the check an effective 13.

    An adamantine dagger is like a piton that doesn't need a hammer and doesn't take the time (and noise) hammering a piton would take.

    It is however, only 1 piton.

    For all the "don't fall off the wall while dodging crossbow bolt" type checks, the dagger probably reduces check to a flat 15. Gaining altittude requires hanging onto wall while stabbing dagger higher.

    Given that you also have the hole the removed dagger made to provide a little bit of a grip (and while removing dagger you could carve out a larger handhold before sticking it in higher), I'd say most GMs would make it easier than climbing the wall but probably a bit harder than the flat 15 a series of preplaced pitons would give you.
    Last edited by Seward; 2021-09-26 at 11:56 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Added:
    Point-Blank Shot, Climb
    Telepathic Bond, Dungeoneering
    Dungeoneering
    Climb
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  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I don't suppose we can get another smiley for Serini?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't suppose we can get another smiley for Serini?
    Sure. Did you have one in mind?
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Uh... I should have phrased that as "can anyone make a new smiley since she looks so different from that one now," sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    So what's actually in a climber's kit? I seem to remember something about special gloves or some such but I'm probably half-remembering something from a PHB of my youth that might have been 2e or even AD&D.

    Notably though, the rules about pitons say that you need to place one every three feet, at one minute a piece in order to get a DC 15 check. I think this is based on a radical misunderstanding of how real-world climbing works and just how many pitons this would mean you need and how much they'd weigh. IRL you use pitons to anchor your ropes, and generally you climb back down and remove them, but it's time-consuming (less so with modern spring-loaded gear of course), and even 20' of hemp rope is heavy. Also, you can't hammer them into a rock face, you place them in appropriate cracks.

    But in any case, the point is that a handhold every three feet means you are 3-point anchored while you are carefully hammering in your next piton. This is a far cry from being able to place a dagger into the rock as you leap upwards, and if the adamantine can actually cut the rock like butter, she's got a whole different problem, which is that she needs to somehow place it just right so it doesn't just cut through the rock all the way down to the ground (imagine trying to stop your fall by sticking a knife into a wall of butter...).

    I guess what I'm getting at is that even if we accept that the dagger is a good handhold, being able to place the dagger as she does seems like a considerably harder climb check. Or just artistic license, sigh.

  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    So what's actually in a climber's kit?
    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 PHB, p.130
    Climber’s Kit: A climber’s kit includes special pitons, boot tips, gloves, and a harness that aids in all sorts of climbing. This is the perfect tool for climbing and gives you a +2 circumstance bonus on Climb checks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    I guess what I'm getting at is that even if we accept that the dagger is a good handhold, being able to place the dagger as she does seems like a considerably harder climb check.
    Well....for Uncanny Dodge to have done anything in the situation, Haley would need something like the "combat climb" modifier in the expanded skill description in Complete Adventurer to have her Dex bonus to AC while climbing in the first place...and that involves taking a -20 on the check. That'd be doable with the DC 15 "adequate handholds and footholds" base DC, or even the DC 20 "some narrow handholds and footholds"; but at DC 25 "natural rock wall" it'd take boosting her level (for max skill ranks) or assuming a feat.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2021-09-27 at 02:02 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Uh... I should have phrased that as "can anyone make a new smiley since she looks so different from that one now," sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
    Sure. Do you find any of these acceptable?

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...PL?usp=sharing

  15. - Top - End - #915
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Hey, I’m not the curator.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    Sure. Do you find any of these acceptable?

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...PL?usp=sharing
    Yes, but as far as I can tell I cannot embed images from googledrive in forum posts.
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  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yes, but as far as I can tell I cannot embed images from googledrive in forum posts.
    Don't sweat it. Any preferences on where I should host them, or on which one should it be?

    I've attempted using Google Photos. Here are the results, but rest assured that I have alternatives.





    Last edited by LuisDantas; 2021-10-01 at 06:25 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    If we can vote, I vote for the second.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  19. - Top - End - #919
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    Don't sweat it. Any preferences on where I should host them, or on which one should it be?

    I've attempted using Google Photos. Here are the results, but rest assured that I have alternatives.





    Those just show up to me as null symbols.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  20. - Top - End - #920
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Those just show up to me as null symbols.
    Spoiler: Better?
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  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Those just show up to me as null symbols.
    My own tests found no problem... have you tried right button clicking to open the images in new tabs, then reloading those with F5?

  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Spoiler: Better?
    Show
    Those show up just fine, yeah! I can see them in Google Drive; I only pointed it out because it might be better to host them somewhere where they display for all users.

    Also, Luis, do you mind if I steal one of those smilies for the Number of Character Appearances thread? Her current smilie there is just as outdated as the one over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    My own tests found no problem... have you tried right button clicking to open the images in new tabs, then reloading those with F5?
    I tried that on both my iPhone and MacBook Pro, yes. Didn't work.

    That was with Chrome. On Firefox they simply don't appear at all, not even as null symbols. (The smilies in the OP show up just fine everywhere, FWIW, so this is a problem specific to these new Serini pics.)
    Last edited by Emanick; 2021-10-01 at 08:13 AM.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  23. - Top - End - #923
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Those show up just fine, yeah! I can see them in Google Drive; I only pointed it out because it might be better to host them somewhere where they display for all users.

    Also, Luis, do you mind if I steal one of those smilies for the Number of Character Appearances thread? Her current smilie there is just as outdated as the one over here.
    If the Giant does not mind, I certainly will not!

    But just in case, may I advise you to attempt a peek at https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QO...-no?authuser=0 ?

    Since it appears that there is a real limitation, I have created alternate hosting URLs.


    Last edited by LuisDantas; 2021-10-01 at 08:22 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #924
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    If the Giant does not mind, I certainly will not!

    But just in case, may I advise you to attempt a peek at https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QO...-no?authuser=0 ?
    Those appear as null images, too. The ones you originally posted show up just fine in Google Drive, though.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  25. - Top - End - #925
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Those appear as null images, too. The ones you originally posted show up just fine in Google Drive, though.
    The second set that I posted a couple of messages above should work better.

  26. - Top - End - #926
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by LuisDantas View Post
    The second set that I posted a couple of messages above should work better.
    They work perfectly, yes! Thanks for going through all of that.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2021-10-01 at 09:03 AM.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

    Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  27. - Top - End - #927
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    We can add tumble to Serini's skills. I believe Rich has used that swirly pattern when others have been tumbling.
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  28. - Top - End - #928
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    We can add tumble to Serini's skills. I believe Rich has used that swirly pattern when others have been tumbling.
    I just want to focus on this point to underscore again the problematic standard of proof shift we see when it comes to the casters v.s the non-casters. Compare the proof used here, of "that swirly pattern looks the same", to the proof demanded of V proving level 17. when fighters are shown doing 3 attacks in a round it's "well, that's it, it must be proof of X", but when casters use a spell that requires level 17 people cast around for other explanations. In this case maybe the illustration means nothing. When the art shows 3 attacks per round maybe the author just didn't show us all the action, or is ignoring the rules. I don't think we should use either of those explanations, but we definitely could. Yet when V performs a telepathic bond which requires level 17 to do, it's "well, Rich might have not been paying attention to the rules here".

    I would just ask again whether people are ready to list V as level 17 yet. To me it's pretty clear. The author has shown the familiar distance limits don't bind Blackwing before (see True Seeing in the desert search for the Gate), so we can disregard that. The author has also shown us the caster level generally effects spells per usual (e.g. 12 pikeman can be effected by level 12 V). Ergo the Occam's razor conclusion is V is level 17. It's far stronger proof than the non-caster characters feats seem to require.
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-10-05 at 02:28 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #929
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Uh, if you mean the Forcecage that's because of the ioun stone.
    Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  30. - Top - End - #930
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Uh, if you mean the Forcecage that's because of the ioun stone.
    No I'm talking about the ability of Telepathic Bond to be cast and link the whole party. That requires level 17 (even including the ion stone). Though Forcecage is another example of how caster level is clearly being used for spell results (it last X hours because V is Y level).
    Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-10-05 at 02:28 AM.

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