Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[danielxcutter]

I'm personally reluctant to vote for that since there's been about one case where the CL/target rule was strictly kept in the entire comic.

[TooSoon]

I'm personally reluctant to vote for that since there's been about one case where the CL/target rule was strictly kept in the entire comic.

We would be hard pressed to find any rules that weren't broken at least once in the comic. For the purpose of this thread we assume the rules are in effect unless there is clear evidence to the contrary.

[danielxcutter]

If multiple counts of ignoring the target number limits isn't clear evidence I don't know what is for you.

[hamishspence]

Feats like Spellcasting Prodigy allow a character to have a high caster level without being high level.

IMO it will be the moment V casts a 9th level spell, and not specifically from a magical item such as a scroll, that convinces readers that V has become a 17th level wizard.

[TooSoon]

If multiple counts of ignoring the target number limits isn't clear evidence I don't know what is for you.

As we've been over, I'd also add that there are actually explanations for the times those target limits were supposedly ignored, so we need not assume they were ignored at all.

I think the standard of proof people apply for non-casters has been met, and V has done all they need to in order to be marked down as level 17; others don't agree, and that's fine, but as I've noted at some length the standards are, in my view, not being applied consistently at all. We can find examples of every rule being ignored probably.

[Kornaki]

I think the problem is that part of the point of the thread is to list what characters can do. We saw Roy attack four times, so we say he's level 15, which lets him, uhhh.... Attack four times, and take 4% more damage.

We saw V telepathic bond 8 people instead of 8, which means V is level 17, and hence is capable of casting wish? The proposed power upgrade significantly outstrips what we have seen on panel for V, which is not true for the fighters.


I don't really know which way I lean in this fight for the purposes of the thread, but I don't feel particularly confident that V will cast a level 9 spell by the end of the comic personally. If by the end of the comic they still haven't cast one, would you still be happy with them being listed as level 17?

[Emanick]

I'm personally happy to list V as level 17 given the amount of evidence we have, because nuggets of hard evidence are few and far between. That said, I think it's bad practice not to first discuss the piece of evidence we just got: the latest comic.

Regarding #1245, the swirl pattern strikes me as enough evidence to list Serini as having ranks in Tumble. Sure, you could quibble about it, but it's so overwhelmingly likely that an epic-level rogue has ranks in Tumble that I don't think we need to insist on a particularly high burden of evidence.

[siprus]

I think Vaarsivius now has potpourri.

He/She has it in his/her clear possession and implies potential further use. I think we can safely assume that it's gonna be in His/her possession unless something contradicting happen in future.

[TooSoon]

I think the problem is that part of the point of the thread is to list what characters can do. We saw Roy attack four times, so we say he's level 15, which lets him, uhhh.... Attack four times, and take 4% more damage.

We saw V telepathic bond 8 people instead of 8, which means V is level 17, and hence is capable of casting wish? The proposed power upgrade significantly outstrips what we have seen on panel for V, which is not true for the fighters.


I don't really know which way I lean in this fight for the purposes of the thread, but I don't feel particularly confident that V will cast a level 9 spell by the end of the comic personally. If by the end of the comic they still haven't cast one, would you still be happy with them being listed as level 17?

I completely agree that is the reason people are applying different standards. I just think that's completely unfair. Principles exist so we can apply them consistently, not based on what their outcome will be. The rule of law shouldn't waver based on consequences people might not like, that's the whole point of it.

[DaOldeWolf]

I completely agree that is the reason people are applying different standards. I just think that's completely unfair. Principles exist so we can apply them consistently, not based on what their outcome will be. The rule of law shouldn't waver based on consequences people might not like, that's the whole point of it.

So, does that mean you also want the flying carrying capacity issue to be reopened too? Afterall, they fal in the same situation. Both are being ignored for the same reasons.

[TooSoon]

So, does that mean you also want the flying carrying capacity issue to be reopened too? Afterall, they fal in the same situation. Both are being ignored for the same reasons.

I don't see the relevance. We all know rules are ignored sometimes. Almost every rule probably truth be told is ignored at least once. The starting point in this thread is that the rules are in effect. Ergo V should be level 17, as has been gone into in great depth.

[Ephemera]

I'm kinda neutral on the whole subject as well, and I am always in favor of acknowledging that there aren't actually any true strict rules for this thread--there's always some uncertainty around the margins and we operate implicitly by semi-consensus at all times as much as we try to be somewhat consistent.

That said, I think that the reason Telepathic Bond didn't get anywhere is that it's a poor fit for the rules, because Blackwing is definitely not following the rules to be a free target once V mores more than 3 feet away, so a really strict interpretation requires that we assume that Rich is handwaving or forgetting the familiar rules or else that V is level 20 (which I don't think anyone wants to argue).

I don't have any problem with assuming that Blackwing is somehow a free subject for the spell, but it is requiring a further assumption, which is another tick against that explanation, weakening the evidence that V is 17 as opposed to that there's some additional target fudging going on, specifically because we're pretty sure that spell targets get fudged sometimes in the comic.

This isn't really satisfying to the people who want to insist that we always follow the rules (or should), but to me it introduces more uncertainty and, as I said, I feel that we are always balancing relative degrees of uncertainty here in arriving at a consensus view.

[DLcygnet]

Regarding #1245, the swirl pattern strikes me as enough evidence to list Serini as having ranks in Tumble. Sure, you could quibble about it, but it's so overwhelmingly likely that an epic-level rogue has ranks in Tumble that I don't think we need to insist on a particularly high burden of evidence.

I agree - especially since surrounded by 3 enemies the tumble check would be DC 29 (Does Haley count? If not, then 27). Granted, the DC might be lower or the check might have failed and we wouldn't know it IF each character chose not to take their Attack of Opportunity. "We have no reason to keep fighting." DC of 37+ if she was moving at full speed. Well... you know... halfling full speed (20 ft/4 squares). It looks like in 1 turn she passed through at least 2.5 squares, got up, and kept running, assuming each character occupies one 5 foot square.

[DaOldeWolf]

I don't see the relevance. We all know rules are ignored sometimes. Almost every rule probably truth be told is ignored at least once. The starting point in this thread is that the rules are in effect. Ergo V should be level 17, as has been gone into in great depth.

Its the same situation. You are saying that rules should be followed to the absolute of it. If you want to open the gate to using number of targets to level prediction the you should do the same with carrying capacity and flight. Both are oddities within the rules but are oddities that are consistent. I dont see how one of the two should get special treatment over the other.

[TooSoon]

I'm kinda neutral on the whole subject as well, and I am always in favor of acknowledging that there aren't actually any true strict rules for this thread--there's always some uncertainty around the margins and we operate implicitly by semi-consensus at all times as much as we try to be somewhat consistent.

That said, I think that the reason Telepathic Bond didn't get anywhere is that it's a poor fit for the rules, because Blackwing is definitely not following the rules to be a free target once V mores more than 3 feet away, so a really strict interpretation requires that we assume that Rich is handwaving or forgetting the familiar rules or else that V is level 20 (which I don't think anyone wants to argue).

I don't have any problem with assuming that Blackwing is somehow a free subject for the spell, but it is requiring a further assumption, which is another tick against that explanation, weakening the evidence that V is 17 as opposed to that there's some additional target fudging going on, specifically because we're pretty sure that spell targets get fudged sometimes in the comic.

This isn't really satisfying to the people who want to insist that we always follow the rules (or should), but to me it introduces more uncertainty and, as I said, I feel that we are always balancing relative degrees of uncertainty here in arriving at a consensus view.

I see it differently.

The principle here is we assume the rules are working, unless there is a good reason not to. In the case of V's familiar, we've already seen the familiar distance limit ignored before now. In fact, we're not sure it was ever in effect, and this latest instance seems to affirm that the author is handwaving it.

Conversely, we have seen caster level is tied to spells on many occasions (e.g. 12 pikeman for level 12 V, Forcecage duration of double V's then level, etc). The instances of CL not being applied are usually things we aren't even sure were rules being broken (i.e. we have explanations for Shojo's wizard, if he had a character sheet to begin with, and there are explanations for Durkon's windwalk and Tsukiko). We don't assume the rules are being broken unless we have compelling reason to; for the 3 eg's I just gave we did (though alternative explanations were found), in this case V has been level 16 for ages and should be level 17 by now. So, rather than something impossible under the rules that we should be skeptical of, V being level 17 is in fact exactly what we were expecting to be shown soon. I'll add, as an irrelevant aside, that the explanations we (could) have used for Durkon's wind walk, etc, do not work here for V; but it's irrelevant because we only need to look for such explanations in instances when the rules seem to be broken. Our assumption is the rules are in effect.

Changing V's level to 17+ also would not preclude them being level 20 btw, though that discussion is a distraction as we should assume the most rules correct interpretation for the purposes of this thread.

That's the mic drop.

[Peelee]

I see it differently.

The principle here is we assume the rules are working, unless there is a good reason not to.

Panel 2: Good reason not to. Unless, of course, you wish to contend that Shojo had an 18th level wizard on hand. Imean, you may. I just wouldn't buy it.

[Gurgeh]

Panel 2: Good reason not to. Unless, of course, you wish to contend that Shojo had an 18th level wizard on hand. Imean, you may. I just wouldn't buy it.

If said Wizard had a single level in Wayfarer Guide then they'd only need to be 15th level!

[Yendor]

Panel 2: Good reason not to. Unless, of course, you wish to contend that Shojo had an 18th level wizard on hand. Imean, you may. I just wouldn't buy it.

And from a scroll: Four creatures (not counting Blackwing), one of whom is Large. Which would require the scroll to have a caster level of 15.

[TooSoon]

Panel 2: Good reason not to. Unless, of course, you wish to contend that Shojo had an 18th level wizard on hand. Imean, you may. I just wouldn't buy it.

People have provided explanations for Shojo's Wizard where he could be much lower level (e.g. Wayfarer level 12 with 9 levels of Wizard and 3 as an Arcane Guide). He's also not a statted character, so it's never been necessary to get into it too deeply. That is not an example of the rules being ignored, it's an instance of "huh, that's curious, I wonder what the explanation is?", and lo and behold people have provided reasonable explanations if we were to ever try to stat him (which we are not going to).

V meanwhile is already statted and the Occam's razor explanation using the usual standard of proof (swirly pattern looks familiar!) should be plenty to get V adjusted up to level 17+.

[Peelee]

People have provided explanations for Shojo's Wizard where he could be much lower level (e.g. Wayfarer level 12 with 9 levels of Wizard and 3 as an Arcane Guide).

Oh, that's certainly possible, but why are you so resistant to him being an 18th level wizard? Nothing precludes that at all, but you're just tossing out Prestige classes with no basis when 18 levels in wizard fits just fine.

Oh, and don't forget him tossing in Reach Spell just for fun.

He's also not a statted character, so it's never been necessary to get into it too deeply.

Hold on, I'm just trying to apply rules consistently, as you wished. Speaking of Wish, I bet Shojo's wizard could have cast that for the Order if they'd just asked. Being 18th level and all.

[TooSoon]

Oh, that's certainly possible, but why are you so resistant to him being an 18th level wizard? Nothing precludes that at all, but you're just tossing out Prestige classes with no basis when 18 levels in wizard fits just fine.

Oh, and don't forget him tossing in Reach Spell just for fun.

Hold on, I'm just trying to apply rules consistently, as you wished. Speaking of Wish, I bet Shojo's wizard could have cast that for the Order if they'd just asked. Being 18th level and all.

Hey, look, if we were to stat Shojo's wizard on this thread I would be open minded to him being level 18. It just seems implausible given the plot. If Shojo has an 18th level wizard working for him, it feels like he wouldn't need the order as much (and if the Wizard is a Paladin, and bound by the oath, then this contradicts the claim Miko is the highest level Paladin).

Personally, I think the most likely explanation is Shojo's wizard is not so high, but we have no frame of reference because we know nothing about him (and so he would not be statted until we knew more).

V we know a lot about, and level 17 has been on the cards since they proved level 16 hundreds and hundreds or comics ago. It is exactly what we should be expecting, and this should be adequate proof for it given all that context. It certainly is better proof than is advanced for the non-casters.

[Reboot]

And from a scroll: Four creatures (not counting Blackwing), one of whom is Large. Which would require the scroll to have a caster level of 15.

Well, that is technically possible, and (as a bounty hunter with a Large partner) he needs to be able to teleport his bounties with him. Aiming to have scrolls that let him do that seem like something worth investing in.. It just raises some questions:

• Casting - To Use Magic Device a CL 15 scroll would be a DC of 35 (20+caster level, or 31 after burning 10 ranks between Spellcraft & Decipher Script). But then, to use a scroll of teleport at all requires a DC 30 UMD check (25+spell level; 28 with 5 UMD ranks) to decipher the scroll in the first place *before* the caster check, so maybe not horribly implausible if he can afford the ranks.
• Availability - can he find a CL 15 wizard to scribe the scrolls (in bulk, apparently) for him?
• Cost - a standard scroll of teleport costs 1125gp, which assumes a bare-minimum (CL 9?) caster level. How much more would a CL 15 scroll cost, and would it still be (meaningfully) less than 5000 gp?

[Peelee]

Hey, look, if we were to stat Shojo's wizard on this thread I would be open minded to him being level 18. It just seems implausible given the plot. If Shojo has an 18th level wizard working for him, it feels like he wouldn't need the order as much (and if the Wizard is a Paladin, and bound by the oath, then this contradicts the claim Miko is the highest level Paladin).

Why would he need to be a Paladin? He could easily have a level in Cleric if you want to posit that he's a part of the Sapphire Guard.

[Gurgeh]

Cost - a standard scroll of teleport costs 1125gp, which assumes a bare-minimum (CL 9?) caster level. How much more would a CL 15 scroll cost, and would it still be (meaningfully) less than 5000 gp?

Divide 1125 by 9, multiply by 15 - so 1875 gp. Gannji's maths still works out on it being a net gain for 5000, but it's pricey nonetheless.

It's also possible that they have a massive stash of Teleport scrolls of varying caster level so they're never travelling with wasted capacity - so it's possible that Gannji was only using a 12th-level scroll for the fizzled attempt (since Enor, Elan, and V only take up four passenger slots); in which case the STUN only wasted 1500.

[TooSoon]

Why would he need to be a Paladin? He could easily have a level in Cleric if you want to posit that he's a part of the Sapphire Guard.

Whatever. It's not relevant for the purposes we're discussing him, which is that he does not in fact stand as an example of the CL limits on spells being ignored.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, speaking of that, do we even know that guy was part of the Guard?

[Peelee]

Whatever. It's not relevant for the purposes we're discussing him, which is that he does not in fact stand as an example of the CL limits on spells being ignored.

"Whatever"?! We're talking about a likely 18th level wizard, man! I, for one, would like to make sure we do this right.

[TooSoon]

"Whatever"?! We're talking about a likely 18th level wizard, man! I, for one, would like to make sure we do this right.

We're only discussing this Wizard because he was supposed to be an example of CL limits on spells not being followed. He's not, so his relevance to the discussion on here fades to a tangential curiosity which people may or may not have interest hypothesizing about. I fall into the latter group, because he hasn't appeared enough to merit a stat sheet and we know almost nothing about him.

Feel free to speculate about him with others. I am only interested in discussing him to the extent it is relevant to the point I'm making (or not). That has now been resolved, so there's nothing further I need to say about him.

We should list V as level 17+. That is the point I am pushing here.

[Yanisa]

Oh, that's certainly possible, but why are you so resistant to him being an 18th level wizard? Nothing precludes that at all, but you're just tossing out Prestige classes with no basis when 18 levels in wizard fits just fine.

Oh, and don't forget him tossing in Reach Spell just for fun.

Hold on, I'm just trying to apply rules consistently, as you wished. Speaking of Wish, I bet Shojo's wizard could have cast that for the Order if they'd just asked. Being 18th level and all.

To be fair, we can conclude that Shojo's wizard isn't level 18.

He dies from a single hit from a Roc*. A Roc's bite attack deals 2d8+6. Which is a maximum of 22 damage. In order to die one needs to reach -10 HP. The minimum HP gained per level is always 1.

Ergo the wizard cannot be higher then level 12, because he cannot have more then 12 HP.

*Okay, this first statement is a lot harder to unpack and not related to hard numbers, but here I go: The Roc had the surprise round. Which means just one attack. The Roc fell asleep after eating the wizard, hence the bite attack. The order of the stick can easily kill a Roc before it acted again, so the Roc didn't had a second turn. The proof is it's a Roc is from the Seasons miniatures [citation needed], I don't believe the creature is ever named in the comic.

[DaOldeWolf]

I mantain my position that if we are going to start bringing up something as an exception, then everything else (under similar circumstances) should have a reevaluation too.