Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Jasdoif]

A Roc's bite attack deals 2d8+6. Which is a maximum of 22 damage.

It could have scored a critical hit for 44.

[Gurgeh]

*Okay, this first statement is a lot harder to unpack and not related to hard numbers, but here I go: The Roc had the surprise round. Which means just one attack. The Roc fell asleep after eating the wizard, hence the bite attack. The order of the stick can easily kill a Roc before it acted again, so the Roc didn't had a second turn. The proof is it's a Roc is from the Seasons miniatures [citation needed], I don't believe the creature is ever named in the comic.

Couldn't the Roc have won initiative, in addition to getting an action in the surprise round? Entirely possible for it to have gone with a full attack. Also possible for it to have gotten a critical hit, even if it did only get one bite off.

EDIT: the standard Roc also has Power Attack and +13 BAB, so there's a heckton of room for more damage, especially with Snatch thrown in. A max power attack bite is 2d8 + 19 damage at +6 to hit. With a critical hit, the Roc could potentially do 70 damage in one bite.

[Yanisa]

I could bring up some more arguments against some points, but the double crit mention defeated me. There is no way to exclude that.

Still, on a completely different note. "We already" decided for Tsukiko that she needed a magic item for her teleporting skills. Being consistent means that the wizard guy also had the same (type of) magic item, and that said magic item is produced in Azure City.

We often inflate the debate to character level, but all we need is an increase in caster level. (Relevant joke.)

[TooSoon]

I mantain my position that if we are going to start bringing up something as an exception, then everything else (under similar circumstances) should have a reevaluation too.

Look if there's stuff you want to re-evaluate I'm all for that. I just don't see it as relevant to what we're discussing here. Nor are any of these cases being cited actual exceptions, because reasonable explanations can be provided in each case, and were discussed last time I complained about V not having been listed as level 17+ yet. Even if they were exceptions though, it wouldn't matter, because the starting point is the rules are in effect until we have evidence they are not.

To me the evidence is pretty straight forward.
1) Do spells normally apply caster level limits provided by the spell? The answer is yes. When V was level 12 they could only use Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Bear's Endurance and Mass Bulls Strength on 12 people, per the spell description that limits the number you can cast on to your caster level. When V casts forcecage, the cage lasts double the length of V's caster level. Xykon's cloister lasts "1 week per caster level". Pompey's buffs last based on his caster level. There are other examples. So yes, CL is being used in the comic, and we should assume it is in individual instances moving forward.
2) Are there exceptions to CL limits being used on spells? I mean, the answer is maybe, but that is probably true of every single rule. If we looked hard, we could probably find evidence most rules were violated at least once. There is nothing like a general trend though which negates the prima facie assumption the CL limits apply. There are 3 examples people are fond of citing, involving Shojo's wizard, Tsukiko and Durkon. All 3 can and have been explained away within the rules many times, so it's not even clear if they are exceptions. If they are, there's no reason we would then turn around and assume the rules RE: CL limits on spells aren't in effect (the thread assumes the opposite in fact).
3) What about Blackwing being in the telepathic bond? Doesn't that mean V would need to be level 20 if we went by the rules? Actually no, because the requirement for a familiar to be within the correct distance has not been observed at all in this comic to date on the few instances we'd have been able to prove it. In the desert searching for Girard, Blackwing is able to continue to use True Seeing while nowhere near V, and that's the only proveable instance one way or another. So the evidence, such as it is, is literally 100% against familiar distance limits being enforced. It seems to be getting handwaved. This is consistent with the extremely homebrew approach to familiars in the comic. V's familiar never having been around to begin with, V's familiar somehow getting sucked into hell as a "bogo", V's familiar being able to continue the telepathic bond with V despite being in another dimension while outside the dungeon, etc. It seems like the author is not following the rules with familiars at all (the Imp being Z's familiar, Girard and Xykon seemingly not having one, etc, though a good explanation is Xykon trading his in for bonus feats).

So the most rules correct approach based on the comic is for V to be level 17+. There is far more proof than non-casters are required to show. Unlike other supposed exceptions, like Shojo's wizard, where people were skeptical because the prima facie approach would suggest Shojo's wizard was too high levelled; no such barrier exists for V. V has been level 16 for a long time, and we have a lot of context for V's character build and class progression. V has had a lot of XP gains we've seen on panel, and we have basically been waiting for V to demonstrate they are level 17 for a long time now. It is literally the expected thing, and should have been added to their character sheet on page 1 a long time ago.

[LuisDantas]

Hardly a big deal, but I just noticed that Durkon is listed as specifically a Cleric of Thor while Minrah is not.

Between her first couple of strip appearances (#1093-1094) and strip #1135's confirmation from the mouth of Thor himself I would think that it is a safe bet that she is indeed a Cleric of Thor.

[Kornaki]

V's familiar being able to continue the telepathic bond with V despite being in another dimension while outside the dungeon, etc.

It's not another dimension. It might literally not even be a different location, I think the most likely scenario is team evil is going through a portal to somewhere else (since Roy said that geometry of the tunnels didn't make sense), and the order did not get teleported anywhere.

[hungrycrow]

It's not another dimension. It might literally not even be a different location, I think the most likely scenario is team evil is going through a portal to somewhere else (since Roy said that geometry of the tunnels didn't make sense), and the order did not get teleported anywhere.

V even uses the fact that telepathic bond still works as proof the other tunnels were still on the material plane.

[TooSoon]

V even uses the fact that telepathic bond still works as proof the other tunnels were still on the material plane.

I'm not fussed either way, whether it's in another dimension or not. It was a throw away example for a side point. The wider evidence I cited for V being level 17+ is unchanged.

[Timy]

It's not another dimension. It might literally not even be a different location, I think the most likely scenario is team evil is going through a portal to somewhere else (since Roy said that geometry of the tunnels didn't make sense), and the order did not get teleported anywhere.

What are the evidence it is somewhere else and not anywhere ?

And why not nowhere or someplace else ?

[Quartz]

To be fair, we can conclude that Shojo's wizard isn't level 18.

He dies from a single hit from a Roc*.

That strip doesn't show that the wizard died in one hit. The wizard's death is off-panel.

[Dion]

Speaking of Wish, I bet Shojo's wizard could have cast that for the Order if they'd just asked. Being 18th level and all.

It’s safe to assume he cast wish on Belkar’s bag of holding so that Bloodfeast the Exterminator could live in there.

It’s unfortunate he only had a constitution of 3, and died from one attack.

[TooSoon]

It’s safe to assume he cast wish on Belkar’s bag of holding so that Bloodfeast the Exterminator could live in there.

It’s unfortunate he only had a constitution of 3, and died from one attack.

Except he could easily have been level 12, and not died in 1 attack.

[Dion]

We should list V as level 17+. That is the point I am pushing here.

Why, again? I aware of only two reasons: V has been 16 for a while, and should get around to gaining a level. Honestly, that’s not very compelling. I’m not inclined to agree.

And the other reason, I think, has something to do with Rich routinely ignoring the number of targets on some party affecting spells, like windwalk, teleport and telepathy. That one isn’t competlling either.

[TooSoon]

Why, again? I aware of only two reasons: V has been 16 for a while, and should get around to gaining a level. Honestly, that’s not very compelling. I’m not inclined to agree.

And the other reason, I think, has something to do with Rich routinely ignoring the number of targets on some party affecting spells, like windwalk, teleport and telepathy. That one isn’t very competlling either. I’m not inclined to agree on this one either.

But… it sure seems like this argument has gone on for a really long time.

What’s the procedure for closing the argument?

No... this is not accurate.
1) Rich routinely breaks probably every rule, but this thread works on the assumption he doesn't.
2) There is no hard evidence Rich broke the rules in any of the 3 instances commonly cited as rebuttal (Shojo could have been a level 12 wayfarer, Tsukiko has different explanations people have provided, and Durkon could have cast wind walk multiple times off panel; an explanation that doesn't work for V, because a multi-bond doesn't make each single bond stretch any further).
3) Telepathic bond can only be cast on the party if V is level 18 (17 + the Ion stone), the only hitch is
4) The Familiar distance limit, which Rich has seemingly ignored 100% of the time we can prove it.

The argument for V being level 17 is supplemented by the context that V has been level 16+ a long time, and we have seen ample XP encounters and time passed to make V hitting level 17 well within our expectations (the common counter to the Durkon or Shojo wizard instances). It is a heck of a lot stronger than the arguments presented for non-casters like "swirly art pattern looks similar" or "looks like 4 attacks per round on panel", both of which could be even more easily refuted with "Rich routinely breaks the rules, it could mean nothing".

There is no procedure for closing an argument, nor should there be; and certainly not in this instance. It is high time V was changed to level 17+ IMO.

[Kornaki]

To be honest I find the two telepathic bond argument to be pretty compelling anyway, so I'm not convinced this is that different from wind walk.

[TooSoon]

To be honest I find the two telepathic bond argument to be pretty compelling anyway, so I'm not convinced this is that different from wind walk.

The spell description does not allow 2 different telepathic bonds to be "merged" into 1, so what people have advocated is "multiple bonds" operating simultaneously. I have explained that:
1) There is no indication this is the case. When someone thinks a group message they appear to just think to everyone and everyone hears it. They don't have to think twice to catch people outside their initial bond.
2) This is very problematic. It's so problematic it seems like it'd almost be counter productive to cast it, because when you send a message on one "channel", which is easiest to envision as a piece of coloured string connecting you and the people in it, you then miss everyone not in that string, and need to send to another string as well, while the people not in that string, who reply, are missing people when they use their string to reply to that string. It's just a huge mess. An infinite number of simultaneous bonds doesn't solve the problem any better.

It's nothing like Wind Walk, where everyone gets a distinct ability and that's it. We also would normally assume Wind Walk tells us Durkon's level. The only reason we didn't in that one instance was because it was so far beyond what we had literally just established Durkon's level to be that it was beyond plausible. That's when you look for another non Occam's razor explanation. If not for that "won't work under the rules" we'd have just used it to peg his level. So it doubly fails as a counter argument.

[Kornaki]

Maybe I'm missing something in the rules, but the srd just says

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm

Each creature included in the link is linked to all the others. The creatures can communicate telepathically through the bond regardless of language

The rules on having telepathy as a special ability just say

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

Telepathy
A creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time.

I think a pretty plain reading of the spell is all of the people in the bond can communicate telepathically with each other. If you have seven creatures that can all communicate telepathically with each other, where does it even say any time two of them are communicating, they have to communicate with all seven people? Two castings of telepathic bond just give me the ability to communicate telepathically with more people, and whether they are all bonded to each other or not is pretty irrelevant for the purposes of telepathic communication. Unless there are further rules about how telepathic communication/the bond work, I think a reasonable raw ruling would just be that any two people in a telepathic bond can communicate as if they have telepathy with each other, in which case the several castings interpretation works just fine.

I think the other interpretation is also pretty valid (and it's how I would play it at my table), but it's not the only one.

[InvisibleBison]

The main reason I don't think the telepathic bond scene should be considered evidence that V is level 17 is that I don't see any consistent perspective where it actually does that. If we ignore the fact that the Giant sometimes doesn't follow the rules, then V needs to be level 20 to cast telepathic bond on seven targets, which I think we can all agree is prohibitively implausible. If, on the other hand, we don't ignore the fact that the Giant sometimes doesn't follow the rules then telepathic bond can't be used to say anything about V's level, because it's possible that the rule about how many people the spell can affect is being ignored.

[TooSoon]

Maybe I'm missing something in the rules, but the srd just says

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm



The rules on having telepathy as a special ability just say

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm



I think a pretty plain reading of the spell is all of the people in the bond can communicate telepathically with each other. If you have seven creatures that can all communicate telepathically with each other, where does it even say any time two of them are communicating, they have to communicate with all seven people? Two castings of telepathic bond just give me the ability to communicate telepathically with more people, and whether they are all bonded to each other or not is pretty irrelevant for the purposes of telepathic communication. Unless there are further rules about how telepathic communication/the bond work, I think a reasonable raw ruling would just be that any two people in a telepathic bond can communicate as if they have telepathy with each other, in which case the several castings interpretation works just fine.

I think the other interpretation is also pretty valid (and it's how I would play it at my table), but it's not the only one.

The issue here is that the Telepathic bond literally cannot link all of them unless V is level 18. It is not that "people in that bond can't pick 1 or 2 people in it to have a private conversation with". It's that 1 casting can't stretch beyond the set number of people your CL limit allows.

So to break it down even more, let's say V casts TP bond on everyone but Belkar and Durkon. Roy telepathically yells "run everyone". He doesn't hit Belkar and Durkon. They are not on the same coloured piece of psychic string, even if V made another bond which did include Belkar and Durkon, but didn't include 2 others. He needs to think a second time to reach them. Then if they reply, they can't reply to the whole group, they would miss the people not in their string. The whole thing is a confusing mess, and we've seen no evidence of it being used that way.

Most importantly we have seen no evidence of multiple castings of it; and we only used that explanation in the case of Durkon wind walking because it was literally impossible for Durkon's CL to cover the whole party within the rules. It is not impossible for V to cover the whole party, it is very possible for V to have levelled in the inordinate time since their last update, and so this is actually evidence they have levelled; not an anomaly we need to explain away.

NB: The familiar distance rules do not appear to have ever been in force, so those can be ignored. Even if we assumed they were in place, it is less inconsistent to ignore 1 rule rather than 2.

[Bacon Elemental]

Personally I feel that if you can use "Shojo's Wizard being required to be level 18 is implausible due to it making no sense in the plot, he must have powerful boosting magic items" you can just as easily say "V being required to have hit Level 17 offscreen is implausible because there is no chance at all they wouldn't have shown off their 9th level spell slot, V must have a second CL boosting item"

[TooSoon]

Personally I feel that if you can use "Shojo's Wizard being required to be level 18 is implausible due to it making no sense in the plot, he must have powerful boosting magic items" you can just as easily say "V being required to have hit Level 17 offscreen is implausible because there is no chance at all they wouldn't have shown off their 9th level spell slot, V must have a second CL boosting item"

I mean I don't even mind if people want to argue Shojo's wizard is level 18, but he's not even statted so we don't need to get into it. The response to people who are unwilling to say he could be level 18 is "well, he can just have some prestige classes in his unknown build that would solve it, it's not like we know a damn thing about this stat sheet as it is". I also fail to see how the 2 things are comparable. V has been level 16+ for 300+ comics. There's nothing 'implausible" about them being level 17, they could easily have a level 9 spell they're saving, or which it made sense to already cast earlier in the day. Shojo's wizard being level 18 is objectively much more implausible, not that it matters which is more/less implausible (but it's Shojo's wizard, without doubt).

[InvisibleBison]

NB: The familiar distance rules do not appear to have ever been in force, so those can be ignored. Even if we assumed they were in place, it is less inconsistent to ignore 1 rule rather than 2.

If we're allowed to ignore one rule, why should we ignore the range limit on share spells and not the target limit for multiperson buff spells?

V has been level 16+ for 300+ comics.

So what? The number of comics someone's been a given level is irrelevant. D&D doesn't have passive XP gain over time. And even if it did, time doesn't pass at a consistent rate from comic to comic.

[Dion]

so we don't need to get into it.

Sure, but we can still talk about it if we want to.

[MultitudeMan]

I think the really important goal is is for someone's feelings to get hurt over whether or not a fictional elf wizard has reached a certain character level in a comic which the author has stated does not follow RAW. As long as we collectively achieve that, this will all have been worth it.

Plus, Shojo's wizard is definitely Wizard 11+/Wayfarer Guide 2.

[Dion]

Plus, Shojo's wizard is definitely Wizard 11+/Wayfarer Guide 2.

But then he’d have at least 13HP, and he wouldn’t have died from one non-critical hit from a roc.

(Unless the roc power attacked. Or if the wizard wasn’t at full hit points. Or if the roc attacked the wizard multiple times. Or the wizard bled out. Or the roc at the wizard before he died.)

Anyhow, regardless of all the reasons why we objectively can’t be sure, I think we should keep arguing this point.

[Yanisa]

But then he’d have at least 13HP, and he wouldn’t have died from one non-critical hit from a roc.

(Unless the roc power attacked. Or if the wizard wasn’t at full hit points. Or if the roc attacked the wizard multiple times. Or the wizard bled out. Or the roc at the wizard before he died.)

Anyhow, regardless of all the reasons why we objectively can’t be sure, I think we should keep arguing this point.

Hmmm... arguing. I was holding this back, but I feel somewhat invited.

Power Attack during an surprise rounds "feels weird" because you declare it before you attack, but it is hard to declare things when you need to react to a guy suddenly teleporting in your nest. Still it is not disallowed by the rules.
Wizard not being full HP is possible, he was drunk after all.
The Roc attacking multiple times I will refute. The Roc lacks a shallow whole ability, so would need to attack an standard or full round action to eat.
If the Order of the Stick would have attacked between the surprise hit and the eating, I will assume the Roc wouldn't have eaten the wizard, because it's smarter than that. (So the Roc both had an surprise round and was first on the initiative.)
Ergo the wizard died in one attack from the Roc, then got eaten, then the Roc got drunk, then the party killed the Roc.

I will also speculate that the entire party lost an round because they were staring in disbelieve about how quickly the wizard died and got eaten. Which explains the whole digesting part (barely).

Regardless of the actually number of HP, I do believe the wizard wasn't that high level because of the ease he died. Whether my interpertation of 1 round is intended or not, he died quicker then the order could save him. And saving doesn't even mean killing the Roc, just standing between the wizard the Roc would have been enough.

[Dion]

just standing between the wizard the Roc would have been enough.

In all reality, a roc has the “snatch” ability, and after a successful bite they can follow immediately with a grapple, followed by crushing damage every round while they chew.

For all we know, V cast Biggle’s Tugging Hand and ripped the poor guy in half trying to get him out of the roc’s mouth.

[TooSoon]

If we're allowed to ignore one rule, why should we ignore the range limit on share spells and not the target limit for multiperson buff spells?



So what? The number of comics someone's been a given level is irrelevant. D&D doesn't have passive XP gain over time. And even if it did, time doesn't pass at a consistent rate from comic to comic.

Every rule is routinely ignored when the author feels like it. This thread assumes the least amount of rule breaking.

Shojo's wizard was also killed off panel. No idea why this is being debated. We have no idea how many attacks it took to kill him.

[Peelee]

No idea why this is being debated.

Vox populi. If people want to debate it, they will.

[Ortho]

V has been level 16+ for 300+ comics.

300 strips ago was a week ago, and strip 834 happened on the same day. 1/3 of the comic has taken place in the span of a week. The passage of time is not a reliable indicator of anything.

On the topic of Shojo's Wizard, I don't think it's possible to draw any conclusions about him at all, given that our main source of information happened entirely offscreen. For all we know he was actually Epic level but the roc just grabbed him and flew away while he was too drunk to react.