Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

300 strips ago was a week ago, and strip 834 happened on the same day. 1/3 of the comic has taken place in the span of a week. The passage of time is not a reliable indicator of anything.

On the topic of Shojo's Wizard, I don't think it's possible to draw any conclusions about him at all, given that our main source of information happened entirely offscreen. For all we know he was actually Epic level but the roc just grabbed him and flew away while he was too drunk to react.

Sure but the point is plenty of stuff has occurred in that timespan that justifies us thinking V being level 17+ is plausible. It is in contrast to exceptions to the normal procedure on here, like Durkon wind walking where it was basically not possible; so we had to find a work around explanation. That is not the case here, we can just apply the ordinary rules assumptions here to peg V to level 17.

[Kornaki]

So to break it down even more, let's say V casts TP bond on everyone but Belkar and Durkon. Roy telepathically yells "run everyone". He doesn't hit Belkar and Durkon. They are not on the same coloured piece of psychic string, even if V made another bond which did include Belkar and Durkon, but didn't include 2 others. He needs to think a second time to reach them. Then if they reply, they can't reply to the whole group, they would miss the people not in their string. The whole thing is a confusing mess, and we've seen no evidence of it being used that way.

There's no string in the rulebook. When you cast telepathic bond, people can communicate telepathically. That's all it says. If I can communicate telepathically with 9 people, I can telepathically emote at them just the same as I can with 7 people. There's nothing in the rules that says they only have to emote once to hit all the people in the bond, there's nothing in the rules that says they can only emote at people in the bond, it just says you can communicate telepathically, and the rules for communicating telepathically say you can have a conversation with multiple people.

I think your interpretation is very reasonably and how I would play it at a table, but it's not the only interpretation in the text.

[TooSoon]

There's no string in the rulebook. When you cast telepathic bond, people can communicate telepathically. That's all it says. If I can communicate telepathically with 9 people, I can telepathically emote at them just the same as I can with 7 people. There's nothing in the rules that says they only have to emote once to hit all the people in the bond, there's nothing in the rules that says they can only emote at people in the bond, it just says you can communicate telepathically, and the rules for communicating telepathically say you can have a conversation with multiple people.

I think your interpretation is very reasonably and how I would play it at a table, but it's not the only interpretation in the text.

We went into a long explanation of why other interpretations were more problematic last time this came up, but I will leave them to one side for now. The real point is this: we only looked for the alternative explanation of multiple casts off panel in the case of Durkon because it was not possible under the rules. If it were possible under the rules for Durkon to do it, we would have just assumed it was a one off casting. That is the Occam's razor prima facie approach. There is no need to even ask "could V have done this with multiple castings", because we only should be looking at that if V doing it is too implausible under the rules. That is not the case; V needs to be level 17, and gosh V has been expected to demonstrate level 17 for a long time now. This functions as proof of that, not the inverse.

[InvisibleBison]

Every rule is routinely ignored when the author feels like it. This thread assumes the least amount of rule breaking.

You didn't actually answer my question. Do you or do you not have an actual reason why we should assume it's the share spell range limit is being ignored instead of the number of people telepathic bond can target? Because if you don't, there's no real reason for anyone who isn't as attached to the notion as you clearly are to think that V is 17th level.

[Dion]

There is no need to even ask...

Welcome to the internet! Have a look around.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU

But seriously, this room is for asking (and sometimes answering) pointless questions about how the events in an internet comic can be reinterpreted in the context of game rules that have been out of print for nearly fifteen years.

I don’t think attempts to police the conversations other people want to have are going to have much effect.

[TooSoon]

You didn't actually answer my question. Do you or do you not have an actual reason why we should assume it's the share spell range limit is being ignored instead of the number of people telepathic bond can target? Because if you don't, there's no real reason for anyone who isn't as attached to the notion as you clearly are to think that V is 17th level.

You didn't answer my question either, which is why we would assume a non-rules explanation when this thread exists to explicitly do the opposite?

I have spoken about the telepathic bond at length, but at this point I feel like it's almost a distraction to discuss if people aren't going to reply to the more important question I posed above. People are putting the cart before the horse.

[Timy]

You didn't answer my question either, which is why we would assume a non-rules explanation when this thread exists to explicitly do the opposite?

I have spoken about the telepathic bond at length, but at this point I feel like it's almost a distraction to discuss if people aren't going to reply to the more important question I posed above. People are putting the cart before the horse.

As I see it, this thread has become these lasts months a kind of show with someone stomping their digital feet about a bunch of people not wanting to agree with them and declare that they were right all along !

In the beginning, I eat my pop corn and enjoyed the show. I have to admit right now I have tired a little bit of it.

[Dion]

I feel like it's almost a distraction to discuss if people aren't going to reply to the more important question I posed above.

First, some quick math suggests the class and level geekery threads have more than 40,000 comments. You have probably contributed several hundred of those posts.

When anyone asks me to reply to “the more important question I posed above”, I am afraid I have no idea which question that is. “Above” is a very, very big place, and nobody alive is digging through it all.

If there is a very Important question you feel you would enjoy discussing, feel free to remind us what that question is.

[Ephemera]

As I see it, this thread has become these lasts months a kind of show with someone stomping their digital feet about a bunch of people not wanting to agree with them and declare that they were right all along !

In the beginning, I eat my pop corn and enjoyed the show. I have to admit right now I have tired a little bit of it.

Meh, this has happened before and will again [insert fantasy reference of your choice here regarding the cyclical nature of things]. YMMV depending on how interesting you find the subject (for instance, I enjoyed the first several pages of the Tarquin arrow-catching debate, and if pressed I could probably still give a rough outline of the case for various levels for Xykon).

For my part, I will always and evermore be sitting over here pointing out that the "rules" of this thread, like pretty much any set of rules complex enough to be interesting, conflict in different ways in different situations, and any resolution of said rules is going to be some balance of confusing and arbitrary. Since different people are going to draw that line in different places, and any attempt to change the rules so they aren't going to be subject to differing interpretations is going to either make them mind-numbingly complex or result in rules that let us conclude nothing at all (or both), we are effectively always operating on somewhat of a consensus basis.

I think it's safe to say that we have a core disagreement about V's level, and while I actually have found TooSoon's argument here to be relatively compelling and it's maybe brought me around, we have probably reached the point where we can say that no one is going to be further convinced by rehashing this so maybe we should just agree to disagree for now?

I'd also be fine with doing some sort of spoiler-tagged entry saying that Telepathic bond is either ignoring the familiar rules and demonstrating that V is level 17, or else is ignoring the limit on targets and demonstrating nothing.

[Dion]

Forgive my ignorance, but the familiar is clearly within five feet of V in the third panel: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

So, what familiar rules are being broken by telepathic bond?

[hungrycrow]

Forgive my ignorance, but the familiar is clearly within five feet of V in the third panel: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

So, what familiar rules are being broken by telepathic bond?

Normally the share spells feature stops working if the familiar moves out of that five feet range.

[Doug Lampert]

I'd also be fine with doing some sort of spoiler-tagged entry saying that Telepathic bond is either ignoring the familiar rules and demonstrating that V is level 17, or else is ignoring the limit on targets and demonstrating nothing.

I see no need for a tag that says "either Rich is ignoring the rules and V is level 17 or Rich is ignoring the rules and V is not level 17". That's null information about V's level, all it tells us is that this scene doesn't work by the rules unless V cast a second time off panel or V is caster level 21.

Is anyone arguing for caster level 21? Anyone? Anyone at all?

No. Then no one is arguing for rules fidelity in this event who's not arguing for two castings.

[Dion]

Normally the share spells feature stops working if the familiar moves out of that five feet range.

Ah. So the argument is that to get the effect seen in the comic:

1) telepathic bond targets the caster plus one willing creature per 3 caster levels
2) the bond shown in the comic targeted V (the caster) plus seven creatures (the rest of the order, plus black wing)
3) therefore V must have caster level 21
4) we know the bauble gives +1 caster level
5) therefore V is level 20

Is that the argument being made? Are we arguing that V is level 20? Because that seems unlikely.

Or are we just acknowledging that Rich is clearly ignoring rules, and we’re just trying to guess which rules are being ignored this time?

Like, is the argument literally “if we suppose Rich ignored the rule on familiar shared spells, and further suppose he followed the rule on number of targets. Then V must be level 17?”

Any argument that boils down to a disagreement about *which* rules are being ignored seems to contradict the rules of this thread. I can’t see how we can accept it.

[LuisDantas]

V is indeed very unlikely to be at level 20 yet.

Even if we decide that the Ioun Stone is not raising his caster level there, the duration of Forcecage as stated in the last panel of #1102 implies that at that point he is at level 17 (more likely 16, since he does have access to the stone).

I have a hard time attempting to believe that he gained three or four levels since, unless some form of significant offpanel adventures are retconned into his time between 1102 and 1245.

[danielxcutter]

Believe me, if we get something like the Forcecage thing I will gladly vote for raising V's level to 17.

I think it's just likely they haven't leveled yet, though. Not sure if they've actually got much XP since then.

[hungrycrow]

Believe me, if we get something like the Forcecage thing I will gladly vote for raising V's level to 17.

I think it's just likely they haven't leveled yet, though. Not sure if they've actually got much XP since then.

They've been in three major fights since mentioning the duration. Rules-wise I don't know that that'd be enough XP, but as far as the comic goes that's a lot of fights.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not sure if they'd get much XP from the dining room fight, or any from the first vampire ambush.

Also, V does make scrolls, so it's plausible that they've burned considerable amounts of XP on that.

[Dion]

They've been in three major fights since mentioning the duration. Rules-wise I don't know that that'd be enough XP, but as far as the comic goes that's a lot of fights.

True, but Belkar, Roy, and Elan have been in those same fights, and it doesn’t look like they’ve gone up a level either. And they’re lower level than V, so in theory they should level *faster*.

[Yanisa]

Ah. So the argument is that to get the effect seen in the comic:

1) telepathic bond targets the caster plus one willing creature per 3 caster levels
2) the bond shown in the comic targeted V (the caster) plus seven creatures (the rest of the order, plus black wing)
3) therefore V must have caster level 21
4) we know the bauble gives +1 caster level
5) therefore V is level 20

Is that the argument being made? Are we arguing that V is level 20? Because that seems unlikely.

Or are we just acknowledging that Rich is clearly ignoring rules, and we’re just trying to guess which rules are being ignored this time?

Like, is the argument literally “if we suppose Rich ignored the rule on familiar shared spells, and further suppose he followed the rule on number of targets. Then V must be level 17?”

Any argument that boils down to a disagreement about *which* rules are being ignored seems to contradict the rules of this thread. I can’t see how we can accept it.

This debate is indeed a long one, but I summed up it earlier as:

No rules are broken, everything on panel. V affect 7 targets and has a caster level of 21. This leads to V having a character level of 20 and V has leveled up a lot since #1102.

No rules are broken, certain abilities are not visible on panel. V is character level 16 and found a new way to increase caster level 21. We can explain it with one feat: Pious Spellsurge, but there are other methods.

No rules are broken, but buffing happens off panel. A complex weave of three Telepathic Bonds are cast to allow everyone to talk with everyone. V requires a minimum of caster level 15.

One rule is broken, Blackwing keeps the spell despite moving 5 feet away from V. Everything else is on panel. V affect 6 targets and has a caster level of 18. This implies V has leveled up once since #1102 to level 17.

One rule is broken, the amount of targets affected by a buff spell. V caster and character level cannot be determined from this spell.

Or a combination of the above, to make it more complex.

TooSoon strongly argues for the fourth option, Blackwing keeping the spell, but because other options exist no one else really wants to commit strongly to an option. Hence V's level keeps being stuck pre #1220.

[hungrycrow]

True, but Belkar, Roy, and Elan have been in those same fights, and it doesn’t look like they’ve gone up a level either. And they’re lower level than V, so in theory they should level *faster*.

The others might not have explicitly mentioned leveling up. I don't have an opinion on whether they all have levelled up yet, just saying that there's been enough happening in the comic for them to have plausibly earned enough XP.

[Dion]

This debate is indeed a long one, but I summed up it earlier as:

Thats really an excellent summary. Thank you.

Look, I know this isn’t a democracy, and my vote doesn’t count for much. It’s my *opinion* that everyone has probably gained a level, just based on the number of encounters.

But there don’t seem to be any ^facts* to support that opinion; we seem to just have a protracted debate about which of the many rules Rich is more likely to have ignored. I can’t see how a decision can be based on that.

[TooSoon]

Actually all we know is that V was "at least" level 16 over 300+ strips ago when it was first proved. They could already have been on the cusp of level 17 back then (or, you know, actually level 17; you don't have to max out Forcecage's duration, or use your bonus CL from the stone if you don't want to).

The Familiar distance limits have been ignored in this comic thus far as much as we can tell. On the one sample that we have, in the desert, Blackwing ignores it. On other occasions where we can't prove it, Blackwing flies out of range of V at will it seems. We never see if that negated the spell in effect (i.e. stoneskin) at that time, because Blackwing is never hit during that time, but it seems odd that blackwing would leave V's range if that was the case.

So the working assumption seems to be distance limits don't apply, which squares up nicely with the other screwy and homebrew aspects we've seen constantly presented with familiars (V's not being there, then just popping in somehow, then BW getting "bogo'd" down to hell, to V's familiar not being able to sense they were trying to eat V despite them sharing an empathic link, then the apparent ignoring of distance requirements, to the rules impossible use of an Imp as Z's familiar, etc).

We're treating the familiar rules consistently (in that they are not being followed properly at all), and also treating the CL limits on spells consistently (they apply unless strong evidence to the contrary).

I am actually fine with people arguing V is level 20, I've noted that elsewhere, but I think the most rules correct and sensible approach is to recognize familiar rules aren't being applied properly in the comic, but CL limits generally are, and stat V accordingly.

[Dion]

CL limits generally are, and stat V accordingly.

Can you give examples in comic of times the number of friendly targets a spell affects is strictly enforced?

So, for example, can you give an example od a time in comic when a spell that would have benefited the whole party was cast, but a choice had to be made to exclude one or more party members?

[TooSoon]

Can you give examples in comic of times the number of friendly targets a spell affects is strictly enforced?

So, for example, can you give an example od a time in comic when a spell that would have benefited the whole party was cast, but a choice had to be made to exclude one or more party members?

I have done this a number of times, including replies to you. When I say "I have done this", what I mean is "I have provided instances in which the CL limits imposed by a spell are followed". What you ask for in that second question in the quote above is a plot question, and has nothing to do with whether the comic uses CL limits for spells. This thread assumes rules are in effect unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary in that individual instance.

As far as a few examples of CL limits being enforced, here's a couple off the top of my head:
- At the battle of Azure City V can only cast his buffs on 12 pikemen (who he enlarges, and makes stronger and tougher), because he was level 12 at the time. As it happens it would have been very helpful to the team if he could have done it to 50 people, but this last part is irrelevant.
- When V casts forcecage, he tells us the forcecage will disperse after 34 hours (that is double his functional caster level at the time; level 16 plus the I.Stone giving a +1 to CL).
- Xykon's Cloister has a duration of 1 week per caster level.
- Pompey buffs the Linear Guild, who then complain that his buffs suck because their duration is limited to his low caster level. Sabine's buffs run out while she fights Roy.

There are other examples, but that will suffice. The comic clearly uses CL limits for spells. On the other hand the evidence familiar distance rules (or any rules) are being used normally is scant, as I noted in my last post. It seems the Giant just handwaved the distance limit for BW, and applies the CL limit to the rest of the party.

[LuisDantas]

Actually all we know is that V was "at least" level 16 over 300+ strips ago when it was first proved. They could already have been on the cusp of level 17 back then (or, you know, actually level 17; you don't have to max out Forcecage's duration, or use your bonus CL from the stone if you don't want to).

Fair enough. On the other hand, it is just as true that there is no obvious reason for nor benefit in conjuring a forcecage at less than full effective caster level.

V himself as much as tells Roy that he is well aware that the duration of a CL 17 cage is way longer lasting than they could want or need.

It conceivable that he could have just cast it at level 17 out of habit or confusion because he achieved character level 17 just a few minutes ago and is not yet used to the new limits or something, but the odds are very much against it. It would almost make more sense to guess that Roy and V are engaging in intentional misdirection here so that the vampires underestimate him, but that too is just not very likely.

... I feel that I am giving this matter too much attention.

[TooSoon]

Fair enough. On the other hand, it is just as true that there is no obvious reason for nor benefit in conjuring a forcecage at less than full effective caster level.

V himself as much as tells Roy that he is well aware that the duration of a CL 17 cage is way longer lasting than they could want or need.

It conceivable that he could have just cast it at level 17 out of habit or confusion because he achieved character level 17 just a few minutes ago and is not yet used to the new limits or something, but the odds are very much against it. It would almost make more sense to guess that Roy and V are engaging in intentional misdirection here so that the vampires underestimate him, but that too is just not very likely.

... I feel that I am giving this matter too much attention.

Even if we assume, as I personally do, that V was level 16 at the time they cast the Forcecage; they could have been 1 XP away from hitting level 17, which means there has been ample time and XP to hit at least an additional level.

[Dion]

This thread assumes rules are in effect unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary in that individual instance.

And I think everyone agrees that the rules were ignored when V cast Telepathic Bond, since the effect shown in comic would require V have caster level 21.

[Gurgeh]

While it's entirely possible to cast a spell at a lower level than your caster level, you can't cast it at a lower level than the minimum needed to cast it in the first place - so in the case of the Forcecage, even a bare minimum caster level would still have put it at 26 hours, functionally identical to the actual 34 hour duration given the circumstances.

[TooSoon]

And I think everyone agrees that the rules were ignored when V cast Telepathic Bond, since the effect shown in comic would require V have caster level 21.

I don't agree, and I'm hardly the only one. The caster level would only need to be level 21 if we also assume a 2nd rule is in effect; the familiar distance limits rule. Unlike CL limits for spells, which has been shown to be applying in the comic thus far, there is literally zero evidence familiar distance rules are being applied; as I explain in depth to you several posts ago.

To take the same tact you took a few posts ago; prove to me that familiar distance limits apply in the comic. I see no evidence to date that they do, and indeed the whole portrayal of familiars in the comic has been incredibly wonky and homebrew, as I also explained.

[Dion]

I prove to me that familiar distance limits apply in the comic.

They don’t. I am agreeing with you. Rules were ignored to see the effect shown in the comic.