Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

They don’t. I am agreeing with you. Rules were ignored to see the effect shown in the comic.

This thread assumes the rules operate as normal unless there is a compelling reason in each instance to disregard. We have a compelling reason to (continue to) disregard the familiar distance limit, because it has been disregarded for the entire comic, along with most of the familiar rules. We have no compelling reason to disregard the normal operation of CL limits, which usually does apply in the comic. As such V should be level 17+ on their stat sheet.

That also wasn't what I asked you btw. I asked you to prove to me that the familiar distance limits have EVER applied in the comic. You can't, because there is no evidence they have and to the extent evidence exists it is that they do not.

[Bacon Elemental]

I can't place where these spells being mentioned happened, does anyone have a link to the comics where Blackwing got the benefit of V's spells without being in range? I dont really remember v casting many mass buffs that included blackwings at all, come to think of it.

[TooSoon]

I can't place where these spells being mentioned happened, does anyone have a link to the comics where Blackwing got the benefit of V's spells without being in range? I dont really remember v casting many mass buffs that included blackwings at all, come to think of it.

It rarely happens. The one time we have seen Blackwing get the buff from a spell where we could prove the distance limit applies or not was in the desert when they were searching for Girard's Gate with the false co-ordinates. Blackwing is seen earlier getting included in a True Seeing spell V casts on himself, yet flagrantly disregards the distance limit during the search. After the Pyramid explodes and V awakens he casts stoneskin on himself, with that benefit extending over to BW. We never see BW take a hit, so we have no idea if stoneskin was still in effect, but BW definitely moves more than 5 feets away from V during the following sequence; which is weird, because why would you do that if you lose the buff by doing so?

On the whole abilities used by familiars are one of the least rules consistent things shown in the comic. Beyond the fact that distance limits have a 100% negative rate so far in the comic, we also see things that make little sense such as:
- BW popping up out of nowhere after having been absent during V's adventures (how?)
- BW apparently not knowing he was about to eat V during V's time as a lizard, despite the fact that as his familiar the two share a psychic link
- BW being pulled into Hell as a "bogo" (definitely not in the rules)
- Z having an Imp familiar, in clear defiance of the rules
- Girard and Xykon apparently not having familiars, though this can be explained easily enough.

The author seems to homebrew familiars to a large degree in the comic. I feel confident in saying the distance limits can be taken not to apply, since all the evidence so far suggests the author is handwaving them for the plot.

On the other hand, CL limits do generally apply.

[Quartz]

No. Then no one is arguing for rules fidelity in this event who's not arguing for two castings.

I'm sorry but I don't understand you. The Telepathic Bond with so many recipients can be explained by a Twinned Telepathic Bond. Yes that's a 9th level spell but if V doesn't have any castable 9th level spells in her spellbook (e.g. insufficient XP to power a Wish) then it's a valid use of the slot.

[Dion]

This thread assumes the rules operate as normal unless there is a compelling reason in each instance to disregard.

So then we are both in agreement that there is a compelling reason to believe the rules don’t apply for the Telepathic Bond?

We’re just disagreeing about which rules?

Suppose we just continue forever, where I say “I think he broke this rule”, and you say “I think he broke that rule”. Then we repeat until the heat death of the the universe.

And to what point?

In the end we both agree that the most likely way to see the effect shown in the comic is that Rich ignored rules. So I think I’m happy to walk out of here knowing that we agree with each other on the most important question.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, since this is probably the best place to ask without opening a new thread entirely; how is Team Serini carrying the paladins in #1189? I dunno if Telekinesis works like that.

Edit: Also does the new AMFES support the theory that Not-Thad is a Soulknife?

[hamishspence]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm

You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.

Sustained Force
A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance.

This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.

IMO The Giant is either going with "you can move multiple objects with one telekinesis, as long as they fall with the weight limit", or Serini's wands include telekinesis wands.

[danielxcutter]

Well, you can't put telekinesis on a wand. That's a 5th-level spell.

[hamishspence]

You can put it in a scepter though, which are beefier wands. While they're Forgotten Realms specific (Lost Empires of Faerun) it's possible that (since they're also used to represent two-spell wands, which weren't originally Forgotten Realms Only in 2e) the Giant has imported them in.

[Rogan]

On the whole abilities used by familiars are one of the least rules consistent things shown in the comic. Beyond the fact that distance limits have a 100% negative rate so far in the comic, we also see things that make little sense such as:
- BW popping up out of nowhere after having been absent during V's adventures (how?)
- BW apparently not knowing he was about to eat V during V's time as a lizard, despite the fact that as his familiar the two share a psychic link
- BW being pulled into Hell as a "bogo" (definitely not in the rules)
- Z having an Imp familiar, in clear defiance of the rules
- Girard and Xykon apparently not having familiars, though this can be explained easily enough.

BW popping out of nowhere is the same thing as Haleys arrows or Durkons hammer (and probably lots of other things). When they are not important, they won't be shown. This is sometimes used as a joke as well. Often the case for BW, but we had the joke for the arrows as well, when Roy was using the bow to fight the sand elemental. Searching for a rule explanation or using this as evidence for some rules is futile (at least in my opinion).

Maybe BW did know exactly who he was chasing? In the beginning of the comic, the relationship between V and BW was not the best. Is there a rule stating a familiar is incapable of being angry at his master?

Please show me the exact rules for deals with the IFF or similar beings. Should be easy for you, since you know definitely that getting the familiar as well is not in those rules.

Is there evidence that the Imp really was the familiar instead of just playing along? We know the Imp had his own agenda / was working for the IFF.

---

In general, I have the impression you, TooSoon, want V to be higher level and are looking for evidence to support your wish.
Your argument might be right, but I think you are grasping at straws in some cases to support it.

It is certainly possible V leveled up and the range limit of share spell is ignored. However, it is equally possible the number of targets is ignored. One way or the other, a rule has to be ignored.

Personally, I think if the order had leveled up, it would have been telegraphed a bit more clearly. So I think the number of targets was changed to "the party". But that's my personal opinion, nothing I could prove.

[hamishspence]

- Girard and Xykon apparently not having familiars, though this can be explained easily enough.

Plenty of characters choose not to call familiars (possibly due to risk of XP loss from familiar dying)- no rules breach there.

- Z having an Imp familiar, in clear defiance of the rules

Is there evidence that the Imp really was the familiar instead of just playing along? We know the Imp had his own agenda / was working for the IFF.

Regarding imp familiars - Even if Qaar was explicitly Zz'dtri's familiar - there's a feat for that - the Improved Familiar feat. Originally from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but I think the later, more generic book, Complete Arcane, may have it too.

[Peelee]

Plenty of characters choose not to call familiars (possibly due to risk of XP loss from familiar dying)- no rules breach there.





Regarding imp familiars - Even if Qaar was explicitly Zz'dtri's familiar - there's a feat for that - the Improved Familiar feat. Originally from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but I think the later, more generic book, Complete Arcane, may have it too.

Beat me to mentioning Improved Familiar. Used that to get a pseudo dragon familiar once (sorcs should be allowed pseudo dragon familiar regardless, I say!).

[Yanisa]

Regarding imp familiars - Even if Qaar was explicitly Zz'dtri's familiar - there's a feat for that - the Improved Familiar feat. Originally from Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, but I think the later, more generic book, Complete Arcane, may have it too.

Improved Familiar is in the SRD, with Imp as a example option in the table.

Edit: Can't get more generic then the core rules.

[hamishspence]

Good point - in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, it must have made the jump all the way to Core and the 3.5 PHB.

Like a lot of the Prestige Classes made it from the FRCS, to the core 3.5 DMG.

[danielxcutter]

I mean heck, Warlock was first in 3.5e Complete Arcane and now it's a Core class in 5e.

[Jasdoif]

Good point - in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition, it must have made the jump all the way to Core and the 3.5 PHB.

The 3.5 DMG, actually; it's on page 200 in the short section about familiars.

[elros]

I am wondering what Haley’s strength is. She is strong enough to carry V, so do we think that makes her minimum strength 16?

[Metastachydium]

I mean heck, Warlock was first in 3.5e Complete Arcane and now it's a Core class in 5e.

(That's not the best example, though. The two classes have very little in common.)

[Yanisa]

I am wondering what Haley’s strength is. She is strong enough to carry V, so do we think that makes her minimum strength 16?

Do we have a source for V's weight?

If so we can use the same calculation as to determine Haley's minimum strength. Just replace Belkar's weight with V's.

Haley Starshine
Str 15-19 (high enough to carry Belkar (forum), but can't carry Roy).

Although, V might also be affected by the fly spell. I don't believe Beholder's can dispel, neither should being knocked out from poison disable the spell. Not sure how fly interact with being carried, might not even be a rule. Still could be that V is "lighter" then normal because of that.

[TooSoon]

I'm sorry but I don't understand you. The Telepathic Bond with so many recipients can be explained by a Twinned Telepathic Bond. Yes that's a 9th level spell but if V doesn't have any castable 9th level spells in her spellbook (e.g. insufficient XP to power a Wish) then it's a valid use of the slot.

Except that when metamagic applies to a spell it is clearly indicated, e.g. maximized energy drain or quickened haste. That puts a bullet in this claim without the need to explore the other problems with it, like the fact V's abilities don't include twinning magic, and it's unclear it would work any better.

RE: BW chasing V as a lizard, BW explicitly tells us he had no idea that was V. Bad things also happen to BW if V dies, definitely not in their interest to kill him.

[Wildstag]

I am wondering what Haley’s strength is. She is strong enough to carry V, so do we think that makes her minimum strength 16?

I don't think we'd need to change her strength. With a human speed of 30 and halfling of 20, Haley can carry up to 200 pounds with her minimum 15 strength while still keeping up in the chase. Our current minimum strength accounts for 33 pounds being actively carried on Haley. As such, all V needs to weigh is 177 or less. Using the random weights for elves, even if V was AMAB, they'd still weigh a maximum of 157. 157 + 33 = 190, so Haley could be carrying V and be carrying a heavy load while keeping up with Serini.

[b_jonas]

Haley was lifting Vaarsuvius already in #116, with no fly spell involved.

[Wildstag]

Haley was lifting Vaarsuvius already in #116, with no fly spell involved.

Lifting and moving while carrying are two mechanically separate instances though. In your provided example, that could just represent Haley's "Lift Above Ground" capacity. Movement with a weight requires V's weight to be within the heavy load.

[Carl]

Happened to be going over the SRD's epic stuff and looked into alchemy, assuming i'm reading it right to craft anything with alchemy you need to be some form of spellcaster. Thus Serreni must be a multi-class. Could be misinterpreting the rules though, have a feeling i am but tired and never looked into craft skills too hard before.

[hungrycrow]

Happened to be going over the SRD's epic stuff and looked into alchemy, assuming i'm reading it right to craft anything with alchemy you need to be some form of spellcaster. Thus Serreni must be a multi-class. Could be misinterpreting the rules though, have a feeling i am but tired and never looked into craft skills too hard before.

I think to craft potions you need to have whatever spell the potion does. But you can be nonmagical and craft other things, like poisons or minor alchemical items like smokesticks and tanglefoot bags. At least thats how I remember it, its been a while.

Edit: Nope, doublechecked and I was wrong. What a dumb rule though.

[Emanick]

Happened to be going over the SRD's epic stuff and looked into alchemy, assuming i'm reading it right to craft anything with alchemy you need to be some form of spellcaster. Thus Serreni must be a multi-class. Could be misinterpreting the rules though, have a feeling i am but tired and never looked into craft skills too hard before.

Given that Serini has a Instant Magic Pot, I think all bets are off about what she is able to brew.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, and even if the pot has a spellcaster requirement Serini can probably UMD it.

[Carl]

Given that Serini has a Instant Magic Pot, I think all bets are off about what she is able to brew.

A what? Also i don't see that mentioned in the strip the starter posts link to, it's just called a cauldron.

[Carl]

Also some other comments. Based on the strength of her potions i'd say it's very likely she has the augmented alchemy feat which means minimum of Int 21, and 24 ranks in Alchemy.

Rearing Sunny as an epic use of Handle Animal is plausible too, but would have a hefty DC, (40 plus Sunny's Hit Dice), so thats probably very very high. Alternatively Sunny could be a Cohort and she could have Epic Leadership. I'd argue given she stocked the Tomb and has a ton of monsters at her beck and call both might be true. She might even have Epic Commander though i doubt it, but given the tomb could count as a domain she rules it's not impossible.

The Layout of the Tomb probably indicates she has a good Knowledge Architecture & Engineering score, (unless the rest of the scribbles planned that, but i doubt it). Possibly also some relevant craft skills in trap-making and construction. TBH i suspect most of the Scribblers besides Soon had decent scores here. Soon had a city built around it so he could readily have had most of the architecture done by someone else, the rest where isolated.

EDIT: The fact that she very likely has a high animal handling skill for Sunny, (unless he's a cohort, but less likely), is also an argument in favour of a pretty significant multi-class as handle animal is not a Rouge Class Skill.

[danielxcutter]

I should point out that Serini isn’t the one who actually made this dungeon. She just provided the general theme and presumably resources.

Also, I’m pretty sure there really is an item that allows a noncaster to make potions. Poisons just need Craft(poisonmaking) though.