Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Carl]

I should point out that Serini isn’t the one who actually made this dungeon. She just provided the general theme and presumably resources.

Also, I’m pretty sure there really is an item that allows a noncaster to make potions. Poisons just need Craft(poisonmaking) though.

Don't know about poisionmaking, not SRD AFAIK, would need an epic feat equivelent of augmented alchemy.

But for the Dungeouns, so far the gate defence designs have tended towards things the individual members where strong at. Serreni was honouring Kragor but it's clear from the doorway trick that she's done it whilst adding her own flair so it's probable a maze like layout with a lot of monsters plays to her strengths in some way.

[Metastachydium]

A what? Also i don't see that mentioned in the strip the starter posts link to, it's just called a cauldron.

It's written on the cauldron in some weird fantasy font.

Also some other comments. Based on the strength of her potions i'd say it's very likely she has the augmented alchemy feat which means minimum of Int 21, and 24 ranks in Alchemy.

Rearing Sunny as an epic use of Handle Animal is plausible too, but would have a hefty DC, (40 plus Sunny's Hit Dice), so thats probably very very high. Alternatively Sunny could be a Cohort and she could have Epic Leadership. I'd argue given she stocked the Tomb and has a ton of monsters at her beck and call both might be true. She might even have Epic Commander though i doubt it, but given the tomb could count as a domain she rules it's not impossible.

(…)

EDIT: The fact that she very likely has a high animal handling skill for Sunny, (unless he's a cohort, but less likely), is also an argument in favour of a pretty significant multi-class as handle animal is not a Rouge Class Skill.

Sunny has an INT score way above 2. I don't think Handle Animal would work on them. Neither would it be needed, for that matter. Sapient creatures can associate with each other without making skill checks.

Also, I’m pretty sure there really is an item that allows a noncaster to make potions. Poisons just need Craft(poisonmaking) though.

Serini's actually a high level warlock and she's using Imbue Item.

[Carl]

It's written on the cauldron in some weird fantasy font.



Sunny has an INT score way above 2. I don't think Handle Animal would work on them. Neither would it be needed, for that matter. Sapient creatures can associate with each other without making skill checks.



Serini's actually a high level warlock and she's using Imbue Item.

Epic Handle Animal allows you to rear any creature, not just animals. DC 40+Hit Dice.

[Metastachydium]

Epic Handle Animal allows you to rear any creature, not just animals. DC 40+Hit Dice.

1. She is very unlikely to have enough ranks to do so, even allowing for the possibility of her having a more stellar Charisma than she appears to be.
2. I still can't quite see why it would be needed in the first place.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it’s not like Leadership is required for an NPC to have allies. That’s mostly for players.

[Carl]

1. She is very unlikely to have enough ranks to do so, even allowing for the possibility of her having a more stellar Charisma than she appears to be.
2. I still can't quite see why it would be needed in the first place.

We have a beholder of atypical alignment who's somewhat childlike and call her mom. I'd say thats a fairly safe bet she raised him from at worst newly hatched. I don't think that would be possibble with such a big cross species gap without use of epic handle animal or similarly high power stuff. And of the lot Handle Animal makes the most sense.

[Metastachydium]

We have a beholder of atypical alignment who's somewhat childlike and call her mom. I'd say thats a fairly safe bet she raised him from at worst newly hatched. I don't think that would be possibble with such a big cross species gap without use of epic handle animal or similarly high power stuff. And of the lot Handle Animal makes the most sense.

Diplomacy can do wonders with sapient creatures, if you really want skill checks involved; alignment is irrelevant, since beholders are usually Lawful Evil which implies that they can be much anything; and I doubt Handle Animal makes the sapient creature handled feel like the handler is their parent.

[Carl]

I mean, it’s not like Leadership is required for an NPC to have allies. That’s mostly for players.

An NPC sure, but the Scribbles seem a bit different, none of them AFAIK have demonstrated doing things via NPC'ness. They've been treated like the PC's they formerly where with regards what they can do. Dorukoun didn't just get a bunch of monsters out of nowhere, he created an item to draw some in, summoned others, employed more. Also had an item for stopping certain spells. Lirian was all nature stuff. Soon built a Paladin order. Giriad relied on illusions and an extended family, e.t.c. I would assume if she's got a whole bunch of monsters working with and for her she has the mechanical elements to back that up.

[Carl]

Diplomacy can do wonders with sapient creatures, if you really want skill checks involved; alignment is irrelevant, since beholders are usually Lawful Evil which implies that they can be much anything; and I doubt Handle Animal makes the sapient creature handled feel like the handler is their parent.

Diplomacy has a limited duration, i don't get the impression Sunny is any such thing. Hard disagree on the last part. I agree that handle Animal wouldn't necessarily make somthing think the handler is their parent every time but it's a reasonable thing it could make happen, and one that doesn't have any duration or dispel-ability issues as it's effectively Ex, not Sp or Mg in nature.

[Metastachydium]

Diplomacy has a limited duration, i don't get the impression Sunny is any such thing. Hard disagree on the last part. I agree that handle Animal wouldn't necessarily make somthing think the handler is their parent every time but it's a reasonable thing it could make happen, and one that doesn't have any duration or dispel-ability issues as it's effectively Ex, not Sp or Mg in nature.

Sunny's alignment doesn't prove your point, and (as you admitted), neither does their childlike demeanour. Further, I still fail to see why Handle Animal would be necessary in the first place.

[Carl]

Sunny sees Serreni as "mom" and appears to be a permanent part of her little circle of monsters, not some random mount diplomaced for a battle. How could that happen? Where looking at either a mind-affecting ability that can affect a beholder. Or a reasonable something that can do a facimmiallie of it.

Outside of powerful magic the most obvious idea is that Serenni raised him from a baby, but thats not somthing i'd expect is possible to just randomly do. In fact the very existence of the ability to do it as an epic use of Handle Animal explicitly indicates it's not something you can just universally do with any two sentient creatures involved or the Handle Animal capability wouldn't be needed. Also Serenni calls him kid and generally does act somewhat motherly towards him, it's not one sided.

I raised the childlike attitude because i take that to indicate Sunny is quite young for a beholder which puts further limitations in play.

If you can think of another way to get a Beholder as a permanent companion that thinks your it's mum go ahead and suggest it. Without the mum part, yeah i'd call Sunny out as an adventuring Beholder of unusual alignment and youth, but that emotional bond transcends two people that just randomly met and get along. I just can't see many ways that could form, especially since it's clearly two way.

Also the fact that Serreni has at least two other named monster that work with her that she's clearly familiar with argues against this being completely unique, the bond they have might well be, but she's clearly got skill at recruiting and maintaining monster allies. It would make sense that whatever explains Sunny explains them, but it has to explain Sunny, not just them.

[Peelee]

Also Rearing Sunny as an epic use of Handle Animal is plausible too

Sunny is not an animal and has an Int of at least 3. Handle Animal doesn't come into play.

[danielxcutter]

Also really big factor: species difference being raised as evidence is kind of missing half the point of at least two major sideplots.

[Carl]

Sunny is not an animal and has an Int of at least 3. Handle Animal doesn't come into play.

As i've noted 3 r 4 tiems now Epic level Handle Animal specificlly allows it to be used to raise or train any creature, not just animals.

Also really big factor: species difference being raised as evidence is kind of missing half the point of at least two major sideplots.

I'd love to know which subplots your referring to?

I can't think of anything comparable to this as a subplot. Remember normal mixed parentage types, (Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Half-Dwarf, Half-Halfling, e.t.c.) are pretty well established. It's reasonable since they can and do interbreed routinely that they could be raised by almost anyone of the various connected species. It also fits in that they have similar physical and social dynamic. Beholder and Part-Halfling/Part-Troll, (through unusual means) is well outside that, and i can't think of the comic touching anywhere near that kind of disparity in species before. It's extremly unusual.

[danielxcutter]

No, the “monsters and PC races can’t coexist/“Evil races” is a load of BS” factor. See: goblin subplot and Familicide.

[Peelee]

As i've noted 3 r 4 tiems now Epic level Handle Animal specificlly allows it to be used to raise or train any creature, not just animals.

Sorry, missed that. Regardless, though, it seems that just talking to and befriending typical "monsters", which we already know she does with trolls, already satisfies this without needing to do into Epic Animal Handling, especially one with a DC nearing 50 and a character without AH as a class skill.

[Carl]

No, the “monsters and PC races can’t coexist/“Evil races” is a load of BS” factor. See: goblin subplot and Familicide.

Yes but i never said anything about that. Coexisting and having the knowledge and abilities to raise a member of a species that is significantly different from your own are two completely different things. Celia's lack of knowledge of Human abilities and the issues that caused with the amulet and her after Haley accidentally broke it is a perfect in comic example of this.

IRL knowing not to feed dogs, (and some other animals), chocolate because it's poisonous is another.

Haley and Elan could probably raise a Goblin/Orc/Whatever fairly readily, the process for all humanoid races seems very similar. But ask them to raise a newly hatched Dragon and they'd have a huge load of issues as even the smallest dragonlings have abilities and capabilities that they have no experiance dealing with and that would only get worse as it grew.

Sorry, missed that. Regardless, though, it seems that just talking to and befriending typical "monsters", which we already know she does with trolls, already satisfies this without needing to do into Epic Animal Handling, especially one with a DC nearing 50 and a character without AH as a class skill.

No worries./ Sorry if i sounded a bit snarky. repeating myself so often in a short span of time gets a bit frustrating.

Like i said the big catch here is the kind of bond they have. That goes beyond simple befriending. They're family to each other.

Also given she clearly has other animals working with her, (not sure on intelligence of a mimic without looking it up, read piercer is really low though), it makes sense she'd have good Handle Animal. Like i said my read is that the simplest way her and Sunny could be the way they are is if she raised him, and i don't think she could do that without Handle Animal, (unless a GM decided to rule that sufficiently high knowledge, diplomacy, leadership, and bluff could be combined to achieve an equivalent effect anyway).

[Metastachydium]

They're family to each other.

Yes, they are family, not a dog and its master.
As for Haley, Elan and the wyrmling, Knowledge (arcana) should tell them all they need to know about the dietary/emotional/hygiene-related &c. needs of a dragon, way before the epic levels. Conversely, Belkar keeps complaining humans don't understand the specific needs, capabilities and problems halflings face, so this is really not about "what looks more like me".
By the way, would you argue that a dragon needs epic Handle Animal checks to raise a human or a half-ogre or whatever as its child?

[danielxcutter]

Sunny is an aberration, which would fall under Knowledge(dungeoneering). A class skill for rogues, and frankly it’s probably not that high a check for Serini to make.

[Peelee]

No worries./ Sorry if i sounded a bit snarky. repeating myself so often in a short span of time gets a bit frustrating.

Like i said the big catch here is the kind of bond they have. That goes beyond simple befriending. They're family to each other.

Also given she clearly has other animals working with her, (not sure on intelligence of a mimic without looking it up, read piercer is really low though), it makes sense she'd have good Handle Animal. Like i said my read is that the simplest way her and Sunny could be the way they are is if she raised him, and i don't think she could do that without Handle Animal, (unless a GM decided to rule that sufficiently high knowledge, diplomacy, leadership, and bluff could be combined to achieve an equivalent effect anyway).

Nah, that's understandable. I have another question, though, earlier you said diplomacy had a limited duration but I didn't remember that and didn't see it when I went to check. Can you help explain that more?

[Carl]

Yes, they are family, not a dog and its master.
As for Haley, Elan and the wyrmling, Knowledge (arcana) should tell them all they need to know about the dietary/emotional/hygiene-related &c. needs of a dragon, way before the epic levels. Conversely, Belkar keeps complaining humans don't understand the specific needs, capabilities and problems halflings face, so this is really not about "what looks more like me".
By the way, would you argue that a dragon needs epic Handle Animal checks to raise a human or a half-ogre or whatever as its child?

A dragon mated with another race? no. Specifically i would assume the part dragon nature and the fact they have some familiarity with that race, and probably a parent of that race helping out would mitigate it.

As for needing knowlage ranks to know the particulars. Tell me, how do you teach somthing to use say wings if you don;t have wings yourself, or a breath weapon if you don't have one? You can't, it's completly outside your experiance. you might with sufficent learning be able to learn techniques to overcome that however. hich is what handle Animal checks represent

Nah, that's understandable. I have another question, though, earlier you said diplomacy had a limited duration but I didn't remember that and didn't see it when I went to check. Can you help explain that more?

Sunny's attitude would have to be fanatic IMO, thats temporary per the section on Epic uses of Diplomacy. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

[b_jonas]

A what? Also i don't see that mentioned in the strip the starter posts link to, it's just called a cauldron.

There's a fascinating story behind that. Since you don't seem to have heard, I think it's worth retelling here. #1112 4th panel shows the wall of donors in Thor's temple. #1126 5th reveals that the name of Sigdi Thundershield (Durkon's mom) is listed on the wall. We missed it at the time, but between the publication of #1113 and #1114, a reader figured out that the Giant wrote the wall in a font that was previously published by a third-party, and that we can read a lot of text on it, including Sigdi's name. (The wall also contains messages teasing the fans who decode messages like that.) Anyway, after that, everyone suspected that the inscription on the cauldron in #1225 also holds a secret message. So that got read much quicker: a reader found the font and read the message: “magic instant pot”. (I haven't verified any of this, it's based on claims on the forum.)

[Peelee]

Sunny's attitude would have to be fanatic IMO, thats temporary per the section on Epic uses of Diplomacy. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

I would argue Sunny doesn't fall into the fanatic territory yet, and also she could just use the Diplomacy skill to raise Sunny to helpful (or even simply Friendly or Indifferent) and then achieve the rest without using an actual skill. After all, it's not like one absolutely needs the Leadership skill to attract followers, for example. I think hinging the entire relationship solely on skill points (regardless of which skill points) is a disservice to characterization.

[Metastachydium]

A dragon mated with another race? no. Specifically i would assume the part dragon nature and the fact they have some familiarity with that race, and probably a parent of that race helping out would mitigate it.

Not what I meant. I meant a dragon with no partner adopting a human or half-ogre child. Would it have to use epic Handle Animal to "rear" them?

As for needing knowlage ranks to know the particulars. Tell me, how do you teach somthing to use say wings if you don;t have wings yourself, or a breath weapon if you don't have one? You can't, it's completly outside your experiance. you might with sufficent learning be able to learn techniques to overcome that however. hich is what handle Animal checks represent

I'd argue that a.) explaining how it works (based on Knowledge of the subject) should work: we are talking about creatures of above average mental stats, after all; b.) I can't see how some nebulous "technique" would work better, not to mention that c.) creatures are usually not taught how to walk or bite. A dragon could probably learn how to fly simply through experimentation.

I would argue Sunny doesn't fall into the fanatic territory yet, and also she could just use the Diplomacy skill to raise Sunny to helpful (or even simply Friendly or Indifferent) and then achieve the rest without using an actual skill. After all, it's not like one absolutely needs the Leadership skill to attract followers, for example. I think hinging the entire relationship solely on skill points (regardless of which skill points) is a disservice to characterization.

Seconded.

[b_jonas]

By the way, would you argue that a dragon needs epic Handle Animal checks to raise a human or a half-ogre or whatever as its child?

To raise an infant or a child before puberty, no. To keep raising them while they're a teenager without the child rebeling and turning against them, yes, but a human parent needs the same. Just look at the success rates of raising a human child in the OotS comic. Tarquin tried to be Elan's and Nale's father, both turned against him. Horace Greenhilt raised Roy but now they have a terrible relationship. Ian raised Haley and Haley blames him for being so messed up. Uncle Geoff tried to raise his son to become someone important, and he failed. Shojo tried to adopt Miko, Miko killed him. Durkon and perhaps Yokyok are just about the only characters who have a good relationship with their parents.

By the way, Durkon says “love is an epic challenge”, and while that's not directly about parenting, it shows that epic DCs are possible for this kind of thing. Non-epic people sometimes manage because they can get very high racial and circumstance modifiers for this kind of thing.

[Carl]

I would argue Sunny doesn't fall into the fanatic territory yet, and also she could just use the Diplomacy skill to raise Sunny to helpful (or even simply Friendly or Indifferent) and then achieve the rest without using an actual skill. After all, it's not like one absolutely needs the Leadership skill to attract followers, for example. I think hinging the entire relationship solely on skill points (regardless of which skill points) is a disservice to characterization.

I'd agree with this if they where solid friends or close comrades or somthing. But for me a familial bond is somthing a lot more involved and complex, it doesn't just happen. For me it's well beyond the typical characterisation interactions, (i'd point to O-Chulu and the MitD as a great example of this), because i don't think that could readily happen through circumstances that wouldn't involve a spell/ability/skill/e.t.c.

To try and put it into some kind of terms that make sense. I don't think the kind of bond they have could happen without some very specific and deep interactions on par with her raising him from a baby beholder, (he must have been SOOOO cute at that size ), and i think doing that would require a skill check or some other thing. But i think raising him as anything more than a loyal companion did involve specific characterisation level stuff, hence why he seems to have an especially close bond with her, (and vice versa). It's a chickena nd the egg situation. one can't exist without the other and both are needed.

[Metastachydium]

To raise an infant or a child before puberty, no. To keep raising them while they're a teenager without the child rebeling and turning against them, yes, but a human parent needs the same. Just look at the success rates of raising a human child in the OotS comic. Tarquin tried to be Elan's and Nale's father, both turned against him. Horace Greenhilt raised Roy but now they have a terrible relationship. Ian raised Haley and Haley blames him for being so messed up. Uncle Geoff tried to raise his son to become someone important, and he failed. Shojo tried to adopt Miko, Miko killed him. Durkon and perhaps Yokyok are just about the only characters who have a good relationship with their parents.

Don't forget Roy and Sara, Elan and Elan's Mother, ABD and YBD, Redcloak and his mother… I sometimes have the feeling that Rich has a thing with fathers. They are pretty much always absent from their children's lives, bad news or both.

By the way, Durkon says “love is an epic challenge”, and while that's not directly about parenting, it shows that epic DCs are possible for this kind of thing. Non-epic people sometimes manage because they can get very high racial and circumstance modifiers for this kind of thing.

So the secret of good parenting is be a woman (see above) or hit the epic levels?

[Carl]

Not what I meant. I meant a dragon with no partner adopting a human or half-ogre child. Would it have to use epic Handle Animal to "rear" them?



I'd argue that a.) explaining how it works (based on Knowledge of the subject) should work: we are talking about creatures of above average mental stats, after all; b.) I can't see how some nebulous "technique" would work better, not to mention that c.) creatures are usually not taught how to walk or bite. A dragon could probably learn how to fly simply through experimentation.

1. No, i think it would be very likely to go wrong as they'd struggle to read all those signals that a member of a given species instinctively understands and they would struggle to or be unable to bring the right mental approach to properly connect with the child as it grows and develops. I imagine a GM would probably allow very low odds using a series of low odds percentage rolls because even the worst person/s can luck into things, but i'd also expect all kinds of issues to exist as a result from the haphazard nature of it.

Whilst it's thankfully rare, IRL human children due to abuse, neglect, or other factors that have grown and developed with primarily or entirely non-human contact often have numerous mental development issues, and sometimes lack common physical skills, (often hygiene related, dressing, undressing, e.t.c.).

2. The use of techniques isn't somthing i'm making up, actual IRL animal keepers with various exotic animals actually have to deal with this. Some behaviours are programmed in, but some have to be taught or are half and half. The more intelligent the animal the more they need to be taught generally. Humans are by far the worst IRL that we know of though because we have an exceptionally long development period.

[Metastachydium]

1. No, i think it would be very likely to go wrong as they'd struggle to read all those signals that a member of a given species instinctively understands and they would struggle to or be unable to bring the right mental approach to properly connect with the child as it grows and develops. I imagine a GM would probably allow very low odds using a series of low odds percentage rolls because even the worst person/s can luck into things, but i'd also expect all kinds of issues to exist as a result from the haphazard nature of it.

Whilst it's thankfully rare, IRL human children due to abuse, neglect, or other factors that have grown and developed with primarily or entirely non-human contact often have numerous mental development issues, and sometimes lack common physical skills, (often hygiene related, dressing, undressing, e.t.c.).

That doesn't really prove anything. Dragons and humans are sapient species; wolves, dogs and apes are not.

2. The use of techniques isn't somthing i'm making up, actual IRL animal keepers with various exotic animals actually have to deal with this. Some behaviours are programmed in, but some have to be taught or are half and half. The more intelligent the animal the more they need to be taught generally. Humans are by far the worst IRL that we know of though because we have an exceptionally long development period.

Again, that ignores the thing where a sapient creature can just explain things to another sapient creature.

[Bacon Elemental]

Even by the skill-bloated standards of the setting it seems a little ridiculous to require an Epic feat and a DC 40+ Handle Animals check as opposed to a normal parenting process correcting and making situation-appropriate skill checks along the way as needed.

Of course a Beholder was probbably a lot harder for a halfling to raise well than a halfling raising another halfling, but Handle Animals kinda implies you're rearing it as a beastmaster, in the same sense that Oona seems to treat her Dire Wolf (And the MITD) rather than as a sapient family member.