Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[hamishspence]

Technically speaking, he should be level 28+ since Xykon has gained at least one level according to himself while exploring the last gate's dungeon.

Actually he says he gained experience :

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

he doesn't say he "went up a level".

[TooSoon]

I've always thought it was most probable that Xykon was in the low 20s based off of his estimate to Roy that "I'm what, seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?" That kind of guesstimate could be wrong, but it sounds to me like Xykon has some basic idea of Roy's level. If we assume that this has something to do with Roy's number of attacks per round, then it makes sense to think that Xykon thinks of somebody between level 11 and 15 as being "at least" 7-8 levels below him. From that panel alone, I'd guess that Xykon was level 22, maybe 23.

The Darth V fight makes him appear more powerful, sure. But it doesn't eliminate the other, earlier evidence, either. Given Xykon's conversation with Roy, I'm inclined to seek an explanation that is as compatible with a level 22-23 sorcerer as possible.

Yeh I completely disagree. When people are so far below you, it's hard to tell which bug is stronger than the other. Xykon can't even remember Roy, and is barely paying attention to him because he's so much more powerful. He's throwing out some wild guesses that mean nothing, based on nothing (he doesn't even know what class Roy is, and Xykon barely seems to remember the rules about this stuff either). On the other hand, the fight against V is suggestive of Xykon being in the high 20s at the least. Xykon is also (apparently) stronger than a low Epic Wizard and Druid from the Order of the Scribble, and is casting Epic Spells that have some pretty absurd DCs. Superb Dispelling alone is something that looks out of reach for a level 22 caster without some major cribbing (DC is a preposterous 59). Cloister is even worse. I saw a post where someone managed to stat it down to a reasonable level; the lowest they could get it was a DC of like 124.

Let's remember also that Xykon was a minimum level of 19+ back when he was captured by Lirian as a human. That was like 30 years ago, and Xykon seems to have spent alot of that time going into dungeons and the like and getting into trouble generally. Xykon also has more spells per slot than they should have for some levels (ok, his charisma bonus etc is high so that might explain him casting 7 ninth level spells at least during the Dorukan fight, but he also has 5 spells instead of 4 for both levels 4 & 5).

I would be stunned if Xykon wasn't at least in the high 20s.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno about high 20s(though that depends on what the cutoff for that is).

I very much doubt he’s barely epic though.

[Yanisa]

Did we see an invisible rod? Did the word "Sudden" or "Rapid" appear in front of the spells? No? Then the prima facie assumption is none of those were used, meaning occam's razor is he has Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

Both the Rapid Metamagic Feat, and the Sudden Maximize feat are not spell modifiers. Unlike metamagic itself, which directly alter spells and need to be noted as such. I am unsure why you would assume that those should be called out.

In fact Rapid Metamagic is more general then Metamagic Specialist; because Rapid Metamagic works for all Metamagics whereas Metamagic Specialist only works 3 times a day. If anything Metamagic Specialist is the one that needs to be called out to keep track of charges. Regardless of your feelings on Rapid Metmagic Magic, shouldn't we also discard Metamagic Specialist then? It's not called out or mentioned.

Yeh I completely disagree. When people are so far below you, it's hard to tell which bug is stronger than the other. Xykon can't even remember Roy, and is barely paying attention to him because he's so much more powerful. He's throwing out some wild guesses that mean nothing, based on nothing (he doesn't even know what class Roy is, and Xykon barely seems to remember the rules about this stuff either).

So 429 is out but what about 442?

Even if we give Durkon the benefit of the doubt, make him level 15. The highest he can dispel is 35 (1d20+CL). So Xykon cannot be higher then 35 -11 (default number for dispel) = 24 CL. And it is possible Durkon was level 13 or 14 back then.

[TooSoon]

Both the Rapid Metamagic Feat, and the Sudden Maximize feat are not spell modifiers. Unlike metamagic itself, which directly alter spells and need to be noted as such. I am unsure why you would assume that those should be called out.

In fact Rapid Metamagic is more general then Metamagic Specialist; because Rapid Metamagic works for all Metamagics whereas Metamagic Specialist only works 3 times a day. If anything Metamagic Specialist is the one that needs to be called out to keep track of charges. Regardless of your feelings on Rapid Metmagic Magic, shouldn't we also discard Metamagic Specialist then? It's not called out or mentioned.



So 429 is out but what about 442?

Even if we give Durkon the benefit of the doubt, make him level 15. The highest he can dispel is 35 (1d20+CL). So Xykon cannot be higher then 35 -11 (default number for dispel) = 24 CL. And it is possible Durkon was level 13 or 14 back then.

As far as Durkon goes, the resolution there is "we never actually saw Xykon cast invisibility, so our assumption must be he didn't cast it, or used a scroll, because it is functionally impossible for Durkon to overcome the caster difference under the rules". It counts for nothing in effect. Xykon was definitely Epic at the time, had been for years, so Durkon's dispel can't work if Xykon cast it himself. Fortunately since we didn't see Xykon cast it we don't need to call it rules breaking or an in-house natural 1 rule, because other explanations are available.

[danielxcutter]

It’s honestly quite reasonable to expect Xykon to use scrolls; I was under the impression that if you don’t know or have prepared the spell using such items was the entire point of their existence.

[hamishspence]

As far as Durkon goes, the resolution there is "we never actually saw Xykon cast invisibility, so our assumption must be he didn't cast it, or used a scroll, because it is functionally impossible for Durkon to overcome the caster difference under the rules". It counts for nothing in effect. Xykon was definitely Epic at the time, had been for years, so Durkon's dispel can't work if Xykon cast it himself.

Unless Xykon is only level 23 or so. That's still Epic.

[TooSoon]

Unless Xykon is only level 23 or so. That's still Epic.

Durkon was level 13 at the time, which I think makes it impossible for him to dispel magic from Xykon at level 21+. As such we should assume it was a scroll or one of Xykon's many Goblin casters did it.

[hamishspence]

Do we know that Durkon was level 13 and not level 15?

[danielxcutter]

I do find it unlikely that Durkon was level 15 by the time of the Battle of Azure City. Heck, I think round 3 with the Linear Guild might have been the first time he even mentioned being capable of using 8ths.

[Yanisa]

Durkon was level 13 at the time, which I think makes it impossible for him to dispel magic from Xykon at level 21+. As such we should assume it was a scroll or one of Xykon's many Goblin casters did it.

Impossible is a big word; it's improbable but a level 13 Durkon could dispel spells with a caster level of 22. (Rolled a 20 for 33 minus the basic 11 makes 22.)

I do agree we should assume something else is at play, especially with the relative ease the scene is portrayed. At the same time within the rules and the scenario portrayed Xykon could be epic, could have cast the spell en Durkon could have dispelled it.

[hamishspence]

It's just that 13 is his minimum level during the Battle of Azure City, not his maximum level.

It's also worth noting that the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane, but applicable to divine spellcasters as well as arcane ones) would allow such dispelling to work more easily, without a boost in character level.

[Gurgeh]

There are some difficulties with Greater Invisibility. It's only on the Bard and Sorcerer/Wizard lists, so it's unlikely Xykon got it from a goblin given said goblin would need to be at least 7th level. Scrolls or wand are possible explanations, but Greater Invisibility itself has issues since its duration is measured in rounds per level; a minimum-level scroll would only last 42 seconds before running out, so Xykon wouldn't have had much time to move into place. Heck, even if Xykon were casting it himself the duration would still be barely over two minutes.

It's possible that he had initially buffed with standard Invisibility and cast Greater Invisibility shortly before approaching the walls - but honestly I feel it's more likely a case of the duration being fudged.

EDIT: Practiced Spellcaster isn't any use for Durkon, since it can't boost a character's caster level higher than their HD. One could make a case for it with Minrah or any other multiclassed caster, of course.

[hamishspence]

EDIT: Practiced Spellcaster isn't any use for Durkon, since it can't boost a character's caster level higher than their HD. One could make a case for it with Minrah or any other multiclassed caster, of course.

Good point - are there any ways of boosting caster level above Hit Dice, that it would be plausible for Durkon to have?

One could make a case for it with Minrah or any other multiclassed caster, of course.

Or the Ancient Black Dragon.

[Gurgeh]

Unconditional CL boosts are relatively difficult to come across, especially for single-classed characters (and doubly so for classes with full spellcasting progression). The only SRD option that comes to my mind is the Orange Prism Ioun Stone, which I think we can safely rule out, given the way it's been shown with V. The Pious Spellsurge feat that's been bandied about in the Telepathic Bond discussion could work. Some Cleric domains give +1 CL to specific categories of spells, but none of the core domains would boost Dispel Magic.

[danielxcutter]

There's one of those prayer beads in Core, and I think the Ankh of Ascension in the MIC can give a CL boost too. I don't think we've seen Durkon use anything that'd suggest either, though.

[Reboot]

Also, it's possible Xykon has a Greater Maximize Metamagic Rod, those have 3 uses per day. (Although people really dislike the "invisible magic item boost".)

Yeah, because we would see a rod in use. We see wands and staves, after all.

There are some magic items which Rich routinely doesn't draw - rings, for instance (see how Lien's ring suddenly appears when the "camera" zooms-in in #1035. Or Belkar's Vest of Resistance, since it's explicitly hidden under his shirt.) But [Rods] range from 2 feet to 3 feet long, much bigger than wands ("A typical wand is 6 inches to 12 inches long") and we those get shown (e.g., #973, #975)

[danielxcutter]

I mean if wands show up, rods totally would.

[TooSoon]

I mean if wands show up, rods totally would.

Exlanations like invisible metamagic rods or sudden maximize should have been removed from the FAQ long ago.

[Timy]

Exlanations like invisible metamagic rods or sudden maximize should have been removed from the FAQ long ago.

Hey !

I clearly understand why the rod could (should ?) be removed but I don't see any compelling argument against sudden maximize...

[danielxcutter]

I mean, Sudden Maximize really doesn't explain how he used both Maximized Energy Drain and Maximized Lightning Bolt in the same day. He almost certainly has Maximize Spell too.

I don't think the FAQ mentions Sudden Still, and there's nothing that outright suggests otherwise so I'm fine with leaving the "Sudden Still or Still Spell" line though.

[hamishspence]

Yeah, because we would see a rod in use. We see wands and staves, after all.

Metamagic Rods are "use-activated" - but that may not require holding the rod. Some use-activated items only need to be in the character's possession. Some rods work when held or carried- the Rod of the Epic Spellcaster, for example.

In this context, The Giant having it as "rod is being carried but not held, underneath clothing" is not completely implausible.

[TooSoon]

Metamagic Rods are "use-activated" - but that may not require holding the rod. Some use-activated items only need to be in the character's possession. Some rods work when held or carried- the Rod of the Epic Spellcaster, for example.

In this context, The Giant having it as "rod is being carried but not held, underneath clothing" is not completely implausible.

Such invisible items are not "completely implausible" for other characters, but are never invoked as arguments to invalidate their stats. These arguments are only ever reserved for a handful of casters like V and Xykon, because some people are just philosophically opposed to making them higher level. If we held the non-caster characters to the standard V and Xykon have to meet half of their stat sheets could be scrubbed because "it's not totally impossiible there is some obscure explanation". That is not the standard of proof that should be employed on this project IMO (and isn't... unless you are a caster).

[danielxcutter]

Enough rods explicitly require them to be held, and frankly I figured that all rods needing to be held was fairly obvious. We're getting into "invisible metamagic rod" territory again, if you ask me.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm still on the "Xykon straight up used a 12th Level spell slot" train for not really rules reasons: It underlines the point he was making with Vaarsuvius. That by "staying in the game", he's continued to get stronger while the soul splice never will, and this is a demonstration of that. Using some means of maximizing Energy Drain accessible to a sub-20 character doesn't really work in that context.

[Yendor]

I'm still on the "Xykon straight up used a 12th Level spell slot" train for not really rules reasons: It underlines the point he was making with Vaarsuvius. That by "staying in the game", he's continued to get stronger while the soul splice never will, and this is a demonstration of that. Using some means of maximizing Energy Drain accessible to a sub-20 character doesn't really work in that context.

That's a really good point. He can't very well say, "power isn't something that you put on and take off like a jacket" if he's getting a significant amount of his power from magic items.

[TooSoon]

I'm still on the "Xykon straight up used a 12th Level spell slot" train for not really rules reasons: It underlines the point he was making with Vaarsuvius. That by "staying in the game", he's continued to get stronger while the soul splice never will, and this is a demonstration of that. Using some means of maximizing Energy Drain accessible to a sub-20 character doesn't really work in that context.

That and using occam's razor a 12th level spell slot is the most straightforward explanation.

NB: While I'm loathe to change the subject, it occurs to me we could and should stat Captain Scoundrel. He's been around enough that we can no longer dismiss him as a one off character like Shojo's Wizard, and he's still alive and will likely return (unlike the Ancient Black Dragon). We know he is higher level than Elan was back in 392 (so 14+), and he has 10 levels in the prestige class dashing swordsman. We also know a number of the items he has. If we could nail down a baseline for the minimum level you could plausibly take said prestige class we could just add 10 levels to that also.

[danielxcutter]

We don’t know what base class (or base classes) he has and I don’t think we know what the requirements are for Dashing Swordsman, so I dunno if we can do that.

I guess we did stat Tarquin with less, but let’s be real, he’s totally a Swordsage.

[TooSoon]

We don’t know what base class (or base classes) he has and I don’t think we know what the requirements are for Dashing Swordsman, so I dunno if we can do that.

I guess we did stat Tarquin with less, but let’s be real, he’s totally a Swordsage.

Tarquin is the one non-caster who gets held to a different standard of proof on here. His dual arrow catch feat flat out makes him Epic, but some people "don't like the idea" of making him Epic, so it's "controversial", while stuff with far less proof will be added to the stat block at will.

[Peelee]

Tarquin is the one non-caster who gets held to a different standard of proof on here. His dual arrow catch feat flat out makes him Epic, but some people "don't like the idea" of making him Epic, so it's "controversial", while stuff with far less proof will be added to the stat block at will.

You know, if you are so sure of what exactly every character is, you can make your own thread about it in Homebrew (named something like "My take on Oots character levels", or something like that) and oeg everyone at exactly what you feel they should be. Just tossing that out as an option that may make you happier.