Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[danielxcutter]

Frankly, I'm not sure if the double arrow catch works even with Epic. We've had Z cast Break Enchantment in a single round because Rich literally forgot the rules, I'd hardly rule out that Rich either doesn't know or doesn't care about that. Especially since, y'know, arrow catching is weak. Actually I dunno why he had to catch them when he could just deflect them, if we did go with the "he's Epic" thing. I guess almost dropping himself off the airship was more muscle memory than anything else, though.

Also I personally headcanon that the Legion is about the CR 16~17ish range, but YMMV I guess.

[TooSoon]

You know, if you are so sure of what exactly every character is, you can make your own thread about it in Homebrew (named something like "My take on Oots character levels", or something like that) and oeg everyone at exactly what you feel they should be. Just tossing that out as an option that may make you happier.

I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to even dream about doing such a thing, never mind the other reasons not to. What we're talking about here has little to do with rules though, it's about the consistent application of logic using principles rather than outcome based decision making. I prefer the former. Most people do... unless it is on issues personal to them. I come across it a lot. I tried explaining to some otherwise intelligent people the other day why {scubbed}, but they just did not want to hear it.

A few pages ago a former mod was admitting evidence by saying "the swirly pattern looks the same" for one character, but V literally doing something they need at least CL 17 to do is being second guessed with "hey, it we squint we can come up with obscure explanations for why V isn't actually level 17, it could have been something else we didn't see". I don't even think anyone really believes V isn't level 17 at this point either, given how long they've been level 16.

NB: This thread works on the assumption the rules work to the extent that is possible, unless we have good evidence to the contrary. If rules are in effect, Tarquin is Epic, which isn't surprising given we know he's "at least" level 16, and probably much higher given how powerful he seems. He's also on a team with a guy who is level 20 after level adjustment. Mirron and Laurin seem to be high teens at least (i.e stronger than the order were, but weaker than Xykon).

NNB: My headcannon Vector Legion is around level 20, in line with Malak's level after adjusting for their being a vampire (12+8), with some members being a level or two higher or lower.

[danielxcutter]

The thing is, the Legion aren't PCs, so to speak, they're NPCs. Nobody really thinks that the frost giant cleric was an epic threat, or the vampire using Durkon's body.

[TooSoon]

The thing is, the Legion aren't PCs, so to speak, they're NPCs. Nobody really thinks that the frost giant cleric was an epic threat, or the vampire using Durkon's body.

Xykon didn't look like an Epic threat when he was destroyed by a level 8 fighter earlier in the comic, but he was. I don't really care how it looks, only how it is. It's not like CRs are always accurate anyhow. The Tarrasque in 3.5 has a comically low CR rating given how dangerous it actually is. When you adventure as a team you expect the team mostly keeps comparable levels, given they're facing the same level of challenges. Malak being an adjusted level 20, regardless of whether it is fair, is in fact indicative of the rough level of his team. He was able to level up to 12 as a Cleric while adventuring with them, despite a +8 level adjustment holding him back. We also know at the bare minimum Tarquin is 16+ from Holy Word alone, that he seemed much higher based on how impressive he has been in combat thus far, and likely Laurin and Mirron are that level at least, we just can't prove it to the standard the thread demands (except we can for Tarquin, because of the arrow catching).

Laurin's power point expenditure certainly looks like a character in the high teens at least. We also have Tarquin's old axe that Laurin made years ago, meaning she was level 15+ years ago when she made it. I mean, the proof isn't in yet, but I don't look at Laurin and see a level 15-16 character.

[danielxcutter]

15-16 is quite high level though. Did anyone do the math for her power points, actually?

Also Tarquin showed off a lot, but I don't think he actually did a lot of damage to the Order. Very flashy and good at surviving, ToB maneuvers are very good at that, but he's got much more style over substance.

[TooSoon]

15-16 is quite high level though. Did anyone do the math for her power points, actually?

Also Tarquin showed off a lot, but I don't think he actually did a lot of damage to the Order. Very flashy and good at surviving, ToB maneuvers are very good at that, but he's got much more style over substance.

I remember searching the old threads and finding someone calculating the power points. None of it was definitive if I recall, but it was certainly suggestive of them being high level. Power points make it very hard to peg levels as I understand it, which is annoying.

Disagree on Tarquin. Rather than saying he's all flash, I'd say he seems to mostly not be trying (for obvious reasons), and even half serious the only one on the order he's in trouble against is V. If not for the Deus ex machina of Julio turning up they were boned (Julio who may well be in the high teens himself, if not higher).

[danielxcutter]

I meant the first fight against the Order, though yes he was just showboating then. I mean his capabilities really don't seem out of line for a high-leveled but non-epic martial.

[DaOldeWolf]

I remember searching the old threads and finding someone calculating the power points. None of it was definitive if I recall, but it was certainly suggestive of them being high level. Power points make it very hard to peg levels as I understand it, which is annoying.

Disagree on Tarquin. Rather than saying he's all flash, I'd say he seems to mostly not be trying (for obvious reasons), and even half serious the only one on the order he's in trouble against is V. If not for the Deus ex machina of Julio turning up they were boned (Julio who may well be in the high teens himself, if not higher).

15-16 is quite high level though. Did anyone do the math for her power points, actually?

Also Tarquin showed off a lot, but I don't think he actually did a lot of damage to the Order. Very flashy and good at surviving, ToB maneuvers are very good at that, but he's got much more style over substance.

If I recall correctly, there was a point of contention: the Wormhole. Some people theorized it could be the second edition version of the move since this move apparently doesnt exists in the third. There was discussion of whether the move costed the same as the second edition and if it even was the same move.

[danielxcutter]

Wasn't it an 8th-level power in that edition? Seems pretty in line with my estimation of their power levels. Also, it's in line with an 8th-level power because it's presumably 1 round + concentration duration so it's a bit weaker than Psionic Teleportation Circle I think.

[TooSoon]

I think what's also worth emphasizing again is that Malak was actually able to level up to 12 while on the Vector Legion. Because of his level adjustment, that means the team as a whole had to face challenges that treated him as a +8 level. Basically if one member of a team is level 20 from their adventures, the rest of the team should be of a similar level, give or take a few levels. Malak being the equivalent of level 20 suggests 16+ is a triffle low for Tarquin, who certainly seems to have been the leader in some respects (for all that they are an alliance of friends). We also have him effortlessly steam rolling the Order on the pyramid without trying, and being basically unstoppable until V and Julio slowed him down. V is a caster, so V's 16+ is worth more than a 20+ warrior anyway, and Julio could be Epic for all we know (the guy has 10 levels in a prestige class that Elan took at level 13, and for all we know you need to be level 10 to take it).

The Holy Word proves he's at least 16+, and the arrow catching feat proves he's Epic. Given the strong hints about the Vector Legion in general, in conjunction with the above, I see no reason that is out of line. Even keeping a Red Dragon around as a cats paw is strongly suggestive of their strength. Yeh, ok, it's not a terribly old dragon, but even a dragon of that age is a tough foe for a mere level 16 character. A young adult Red Dragon has 20-21 HD and a 13 CR. A bit much for a level 16 character to safely control IMO.

[Peelee]

I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to even dream about doing such a thing, never mind the other reasons not to.

For the record, you wouldn't need an in-depth look at every character. It could just be the ones you feel you have a good grasp on. If you have other reasons not to, then of course you're under no obligation. I just wanted to toss it out as a viable option.

[TooSoon]

For the record, you wouldn't need an in-depth look at every character. It could just be the ones you feel you have a good grasp on. If you have other reasons not to, then of course you're under no obligation. I just wanted to toss it out as a viable option.

My preferred option is we stat things consistently, regardless of whether you are a caster and what "the consequences" of that stat will be. Go look at the "proof" of Elan's wisdom and intelligence scores. It's 2 hyperbolic comments by Roy and V respectively, that might mean nothing. Similarly, we invoke as proof for non-casters things that are by no means definitive; "that art looked like 3 swings per round" or "that swirly pattern is similar". Sure, those could prove something... or it could be a coincidence, or the author messed up the rules or is ignoring them, etc. That sort of proof seems extremely weak compared to "Hey, V just cast a spell that requires a minimum caster level of 17 to do, we should list them as 17 accordingly".

I just feel we should face up to the inconsistent standards of proof operating in the thread and decide if we want the thread to be more inclusive, or have a higher bar (and if so, maybe half the old stats should be scrubbed for not meeting it; not that I really want that). We have people who have literally said they won't agree to level up Tarquin to 21+, or V to 17+, because they "don't like the idea of them being that powerful". That should not be an argument that is valid on this thread, I wouldn't have thought.

I personally prefer an Occam's razor approach, but if people want to talk about probabilities etc as the appropriate standard that works too. I think it's clear the "no other explanation" standard is not being applied however.

For me V being level 17+ is pretty obvious, and far exceeds the general standard of proof required on this thread. The questions are as follows:
1) Are CL limits for spells generally applied? The answer is yes. A few exceptions are floated, none of which it's even clear are exceptions, but in general they clearly apply.
2) Is the familiar distance limit generally applied? The answer is no, based on the limited evidence we have. 100% of times we can prove it, it has not applied. There is no evidence at all the Giant is hewing to it.

If both 1 and 2 were generally applied, V would be level 20, but since they are not V is pegged at level 17+. Even if familiar distance limits were applied, better to break 1 rule than 2, that is the "most rules consistent" approach. The other explanations are not Occam's razor, and also generally don't work (V doesn't say "twinned TP Bond" when they cast the spells for eg, we have no evidence V can twin spells either, and a multi-bond doesn't seem to work much better either and is not shown on the panels anyway).

The case of Tarquin is even more striking. There's no rules reason he's not 21+ right now. I also don't get why Xykon's FAQ still talks about invisible rods and sudden maximize when we just discussed again why neither should be considered a plausible explanation. Sudden maximise doesn't explain 2 maximized spells in a day, and rods (like wands) should be visible when used.

[Peelee]

That should not be an argument that is valid on this thread, I wouldn't have thought.

For the record, the only thing that makes an argument "invalid" in a curated thread like this is if the majority disagrees. One could argue something on the basis of astrology and if the majority agrees with the conclusions then the curator will almost certainly amend the opening posts to reflect the consensus.

[DaOldeWolf]

Well, we just need Sabine´s strength added on this discussion and we will have every single controversial discussion analysis in one place.

[Yanisa]

Sudden maximise doesn't explain 2 maximized spells in a day...

The feat Sudden Maximize calls out you can also still use the Metamagic Maximize.
To obtain the Feat Sudden Maximize you need at least one metamagic feat.
In addition the thread uses Sudden Maximize to explain one instance, not two.
(Also no proof whether Sudden is called out or not.)

So that point doesn't make any sense. I do not get your completely disregard of Sudden Maximize.

... rods (like wands) should be visible when used.

We don't know how rods will be represented; We cannot apply "real world logic" to an art style.
By the rules (metamagic) rods are slotless magic items that are use activated; they do not mention needed to be wield in a hand.
There is nothing within the rules that states "you must show your rod openly and clearly in order to use a magic rod".
Wands and Rods function very differently, so comparing the two seems odd. (Wands especially mention needing to be wield in a hand.)
Lastly Rods are a "core only" explanation of the scene, which is a less obscure source then the epic level handbook or complete arcana.

Beside that, I do agree that invisible magic items are a cheap way to explain scenes and can be misused very easily. It's just that a lot of baseless assumption are made (by multiple people) to disregard the option. The metamagic rod didn't even made into Xykon's statblock, the FAQ is the perfect place to call them out in a historical context.

[danielxcutter]

There's really no reason to put Sudden Maximize in Xykon's statblock, if you ask me.

[Yanisa]

There's really no reason to put Sudden Maximize in Xykon's statblock, if you ask me.

I still say Sudden Maximize is an equal explanation to Improved Spell Capacity, but the current statblock should get an update. It's phrased rather oddly with those "or's" for no good reason.

There are basically two explanations, feat-wise.

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+ (see 429, 442, and 1041),
Feats: Maximize Spell, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Still, Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat, Dodge.

OR

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 26+ (required to take 4 epic feats),
Feats: Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Improved Spell Capacity (Taken three times), Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat, Dodge.

We could even vote, if people are still up for that.

[hamishspence]

I'm curious as to why Metamagic Specialist is specifically stated as the only possible explanation for the Stilled Meteor Swarm, without the possibility of the Rapid Metamagic feat being used instead.

As far as I can tell, a sorcerer with the Rapid Metamagic feat, should be able to use a Stilled Meteor Swarm, exactly like a Metamagic Specialist should.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, pretty sure it should work. Xykon's got plenty of feat slots to fill anyways; he almost certainly has room for it.

[catagent101]

I think it's because we know* that Xykon doesn't have a familiar, so it explains that as well.

*Devil's Proof aside

[danielxcutter]

I think a "has the Rapid Metamagic feat or the Metamagic Specialist ACF" option could work, at least.

[TooSoon]

I still say Sudden Maximize is an equal explanation to Improved Spell Capacity, but the current statblock should get an update. It's phrased rather oddly with those "or's" for no good reason.

There are basically two explanations, feat-wise.

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 21+ (see 429, 442, and 1041),
Feats: Maximize Spell, Sudden Maximize, Sudden Still, Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat, Dodge.

OR

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Chaotic (forum) Evil, Human male lich, Sorcerer 26+ (required to take 4 epic feats),
Feats: Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Improved Spell Capacity (Taken three times), Epic Spellcasting, unspecified craft feat, Dodge.

We could even vote, if people are still up for that.

Obviously I'm voting for the one that says level 26+. As you say, "he had an invisible item" is a cop out we could use for half the stuff statted here, and we have no evidence Xykon has the sudden metamagic feat, nor does he say "Sudden Maximise" when he casts the spell. Rapid metamagic is even more obscure. The Occam's razor assumption should be he cast it in the ordinary way, until we see evidence he has these obscure abilities, and the ordinary way also fits the narrative about earning power; not getting it with a cheap trick. Lastly, we see Xykon cast an Epic spell with a DC of 59 (never mind Cloister); if choosing between 2 options we should err on the side of the one that actually makes this more plausible.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think those abilities would require them to be said out loud, but I do think he cast that from an actual 12th-level slot yeah.

[Ortho]

Side note, how'd we get the Dodge feat from 652? I feel like Xykon swooping out of the way and/or V missing the attack is something that could easily happen without that feat.

Also, Xykon's missing his Dexterity score, which should be 13+, as that's the prerequisite.

[danielxcutter]

Because of the "dodge!" unsound effect, which frankly I find too ambiguous to clarify that he has Dodge. Especially since it sucks and he's a spellcaster, and probably had bad physical scores by the time he became a lich.

[Yanisa]

Rapid metamagic is even more obscure.

Rapid Metamagic is from Complete Mage.
Metamagic Specialist is from Player's Handbook II.

Both books are obscure, neither book is used a source before.

Side observation: Complete Mage is an sequel to Complete Arcane, in a similarly vein Player's Handbook II is a sequel to the Player's Handbook. They are even published in the same year.

Because of the "dodge!" unsound effect, which frankly I find too ambiguous to clarify that he has Dodge. Especially since it sucks and he's a spellcaster, and probably had bad physical scores by the time he became a lich.

We also have a deflect sound effect in the same fight, used for a possible ring.

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
Ring of Protection that gives deflection bonus

The sounds effects are clearly to distinguish different types of defences Xykon has. So it's easiest to assume he has a dodge bonus and a deflection bonus. We can then speculative a million ways he can get those, or we stick with the easiest explanations from the player's handbook. (Or we go with "Unknown way to gain dodge bonus"...)

Besides, dodge feat might be suboptimal, but that level of optimization is rarely considered in the OotS world.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno, "dodge!" seems it might happen if someone had any Dex modifier at all. "Deflect!" seems like proof for a deflection bonus though yes.

Wasn't there another Dodge-type feat in the PH2? Move enough and you get the dodge bonus. Might be that if we're using that unsound effect as proof for a dodge bonus.

[DaOldeWolf]

I dunno, "dodge!" seems it might happen if someone had any Dex modifier at all. "Deflect!" seems like proof for a deflection bonus though yes.

Wasn't there another Dodge-type feat in the PH2? Move enough and you get the dodge bonus. Might be that if we're using that unsound effect as proof for a dodge bonus.

It might be worth bringing up the brief fight between V and Qarr on 625 and 626. In that fight, the imp is clearly dodging the attack but no "Dodge" sound effect appears. So, there must be a difference between the two cases.

[Quartz]

Ah, we've veered back into how epic is Xykon. :)

I did the maths a while back based on his use of Superb Dispelling assuming no magic items:

Xykon needs to be level 23 at least to take Epic Spellcasting and Epic Skill Focus. Add in three Improved Spell Capacity feats and you get level 27+ (depending upon his Int bonus).

Spoiler: Maths

Show

The DC for Superb Dispelling is 59. If Xykon Takes 10 (normal for Epic spells) he needs +49 to the die roll.
26 Ranks of Spellcraft at level 23 gives +26
25 Ranks of Knowledge: Arcana gives +4 Synergy Bonus (+30 so far)
Skill Focus gives +3 (+33 so far)
Epic Skill Focus gives +10 (+43 so far)

So we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can come from levels or Int bonus or both. The top of the thread guesstimates his Int at 15 which gives +2 which leaves +4 to find from levels, which means level 27+.

And being level 27 means he can fit in 3 picks of Improved Spell Capacity at levels 24, 26, and 27 for those 12th level spells like that Maximised Energy Drain.

[danielxcutter]

Considering that Haerta was able to use Familicide, y'know, at all, I'm not inclined to think that the Spellcraft checks are being kept track of.