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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I don't think there's a issue with the number of Haley's feats. Her entry lists her with 9 feats known so far. She gets two at level 1 (as human), 5 from levels 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15, and she can take additional feats instead of rogue special abilities (which she qualified for at levels 10, 13 and 16, and I don't she's demonstrated any of those so far) so we've actually got leeway for one more feat or special ability at her present level before she breaks RAW.
    The way I read it is that you can take any Rogue Special Abilities once unless the ability itself allows multiples, like Skill Mastery does. (Which is a common rule in 3.5) So you can only get one feat from the rogue special ability. Also I am far more used to pathfinder's rogue talents then 3.5's rogue special abilities, which specifically don't allow multiple feats (sort off). Hence I felt the number of feats of Haley was too much.

    At the same time yeah, the wording a bit more vague ("in place of a special ability)" and the feat option isn't alphabetized. I can see multiple feats as a possible reading, but I can't find any clarification online on the intend or how people use it. (People in general like the abilities and don't take the bonus feat.) I suspect this discussion already has been had ages ago, so don't let me start it again.

    If do take in account a skill feat, she can have Skill Focus for a +3, which lowers the minimum ranks to 7.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I forget, is Improved Uncanny Dodge one of the special Rogue abilities or is that one automatic with levels?
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I forget, is Improved Uncanny Dodge one of the special Rogue abilities or is that one automatic with levels?
    Improved Uncanny Dodge comes from levels.

    Improved Evasion comes from the special ability list. Which made me doubt all my years of 3.5 knowledge because in pathfinder that one also comes with leveling.
    Last edited by Yanisa; 2020-12-20 at 08:29 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    The way I read it is that you can take any Rogue Special Abilities once unless the ability itself allows multiples, like Skill Mastery does. (Which is a common rule in 3.5) So you can only get one feat from the rogue special ability.
    For what it's worth, I've never read it that way. I've always interpreted it as allowing you to take a feat instead of a special ability each time. It would be rather strange if you could only take a feat instead of a rogue special ability *once.*

    So count me as one of the people who doesn't have an issue with the number of feats Haley has listed.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Maybe the big secret is that all the doors lead to only one demiplane, which refreshes itself with monsters each time it's visited?
    I think this might work. I was going to say that Genesis only creates 180 ft of radius per casting, which isn't that big, but it's not that small either (roughly 100k square feet). But by RAW, each additional casting of Genesis expands the radius of the demiplane by 180 feet. Not creates another 180 ft radius circle (presumably we're talking about a sphere anyway?), which means that it wouldn't take all that many castings to create a pretty big plane.

    I'm not even sure this is a mistake in the rules, it might have been intentional but the second casting makes it 4x as big, the third 9x, the 4th 16x, so if you did, say, 10 castings, you now have a demiplane that is 1800 ft in radius, roughly a 10 million square foot circle at it's widest point, or 18 billion cubic feet, roughly the interior volume of 100 aircraft carriers, which is enough to keep our adventurers busy for a while. The bigger issue is probably how to form the dungeons in the demiplane, and whether it's in any way easier than just making them somewhere else on the material plan.

    This comes down to the question of whether it's easier to make a permanent teleportation trap or a gate one, and I haven't a clue. But given that Gate is a 9th level spell to begin with (and doesn't last long), I think the gates might actually be a bigger issue than the creation of the demiplane, whether it's all one big demi-plane or lots of smaller ones.

    I like the idea, story-wise, a lot, I'm just not sure how I feel about the mechanics.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Yup - all it takes is a 9th Level spell, cast by either an arcane caster or a cleric with the Creation domain:

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

    There's a psychic power too- but psychic power users are implied to be somewhat rare in OOTS, though present.
    What the rot! That's crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    I think this might work. I was going to say that Genesis only creates 180 ft of radius per casting, which isn't that big, but it's not that small either (roughly 100k square feet). But by RAW, each additional casting of Genesis expands the radius of the demiplane by 180 feet. Not creates another 180 ft radius circle (presumably we're talking about a sphere anyway?), which means that it wouldn't take all that many castings to create a pretty big plane.

    I'm not even sure this is a mistake in the rules, it might have been intentional but the second casting makes it 4x as big, the third 9x, the 4th 16x, so if you did, say, 10 castings, you now have a demiplane that is 1800 ft in radius, roughly a 10 million square foot circle at it's widest point, or 18 billion cubic feet, roughly the interior volume of 100 aircraft carriers, which is enough to keep our adventurers busy for a while. The bigger issue is probably how to form the dungeons in the demiplane, and whether it's in any way easier than just making them somewhere else on the material plan.

    This comes down to the question of whether it's easier to make a permanent teleportation trap or a gate one, and I haven't a clue. But given that Gate is a 9th level spell to begin with (and doesn't last long), I think the gates might actually be a bigger issue than the creation of the demiplane, whether it's all one big demi-plane or lots of smaller ones.

    I like the idea, story-wise, a lot, I'm just not sure how I feel about the mechanics.
    (Story-wise I still cannot quite see who could have cost all those 9th level spells for Serini.)

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    What the rot! That's crazy.
    Well, it seems like it starts off with a 0 foot radius to start with and only grows to the full 180' a half year after you cast it. Which is still pretty dang small - a little less than 3 acres, or 1 and a third football pitches, or 2 american football fields.

    Not very big at all. A nice place for a trans-dimensional private home, though.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, it seems like it starts off with a 0 foot radius to start with and only grows to the full 180' a half year after you cast it. Which is still pretty dang small - a little less than 3 acres, or 1 and a third football pitches, or 2 american football fields.

    Not very big at all. A nice place for a trans-dimensional private home, though.
    The psionic version never completely stops growing, though the rate of growth slows to 50 ft per year.


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The psionic version never completely stops growing, though the rate of growth slows to 50 ft per year.


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm
    And a fifth the XP cost. Seems like they bent over backwards to make the psionic version strictly better.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Gate explicitly only allows travel between planes, though the Wormhole power that Laurin used or a variation of Teleportation Circle might work.
    How about plain old Plane Shift?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I think creating extradimensional space would be cheaper than creating an entire plane. There are spells that do that, such as Rope Trick and Mage's Magnificient Mansion, though those don't last long enough. There are also items like Bag of Holding and Portable Hole that contain such extradimensional space permanently, but the space is too small. (I suspect that a Bottle of Air holds a large extradimensional space in it, but the rules don't explicitly say this.) If the traps led to an extradimensional space, rather than a separate plane, that would avoid the possible problem with Blackwing's telepathy.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-12-20 at 06:15 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    How about plain old Plane Shift?
    Plane Shift still only sends you to another plane. It’d be easier to ad-hoc it from preexisting spells like Teleportation Circle than to force the spells you suggest to send them to somewhere that’s also on the Material. Maybe the dungeons are on another plane, but if not it’s likely not a Gate effect.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    How about plain old Plane Shift?
    Plane Shift also never brings you to your exact location, so you can't use it to travel between set points. Like a door and the entrance of a dungeon.
    Our only options is something similar to Greater Teleport/Teleport Circle for travel between points on the material plane. Or something similar to Gate for travel between the material plane and a plane full of dungeons.

    I wonder if we even learn the ability that does it beyond "teleportation" or "plane travel".
    Last edited by Yanisa; 2020-12-21 at 02:00 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    Plane Shift also never brings you to your exact location, so you can't use it to travel between set points. Like a door and the entrance of a dungeon.
    Our only options is something similar to Greater Teleport/Teleport Circle for travel between points on the material plane. Or something similar to Gate for travel between the material plane and a plane full of dungeons.

    I wonder if we even learn the ability that does it beyond "teleportation" or "plane travel".
    Greater Plane Shift is a thing, but it's not in Core.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Greater Plane Shift is a thing, but it's not in Core.
    Ah spell companion. But you need to have visited the place before, so it doesn't really work for a group of strangers walking into the dungeon for the first time.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (Story-wise I still cannot quite see who could have cost all those 9th level spells for Serini.)
    It gets simpler if you assume that there are a few scattered epic or other high-level characters on other planes, which is the case in a number of settings. They're unlikely to get involved in the Material Plane too much - they have bigger fish to fry, or else they simply don't much care about the affairs of mortals - but an epic character could conceivably hire them to cast some spells, for the right price.

    Additionally, it's not too crazy to think that there might be some archmages in places like Cliffport or the Elven Lands who are capable of casting 9th level spells. We've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Personally I think it's entirely possible that she asked Dorukan and/or Girard for help with her dungeon before her Gate was finished; pretty sure the oath could be interpreted in some way for that to work. Besides, it's somewhat implied that the main schism was between Soon and the arcane casters, and it's looking like the only one who gave a wererat's arse about the oath in the first place was the paladin.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Besides, it's somewhat implied that the main schism was between Soon and the arcane casters, and it's looking like the only one who gave a wererat's arse about the oath in the first place was the paladin.
    With all the "behind his back" shenanigans and the general apathy for the loss of his wife, every reread makes it more clear to me that Soon was probably the only actually decent person in the group, or at least the only person that someone would actually want to be around for longer than 10 minutes.

    Maybe the elf was decent enough, but they still all lied to Soon's face about honoring that oath, so she's a jerk by association.

    On a more related note, I'd figure whatever spell effect to be in play to be a custom spell, but those aren't really good for arguments in here. I'd think a more specific form of Genesis that doesn't create a spherical 180-foot radius realm but rather a "room by room" system. I'm not versed enough with casting to know whether there's actually a spell like that though.

    On a side note, a teleportation effect would also explain a safety feature for the monster-wranglers; they open the cage, the monster walks past the portal, and now it can't immediately turn around and attack the wranglers.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (Story-wise I still cannot quite see who could have cost all those 9th level spells for Serini.)
    She could likely do it herself via the appraise skill (assuming they were cast via a common, rare or exotic item).

  20. - Top - End - #110

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    The factions look to have been Soon (1), Lirian and Dorukan (2) and Girard and Serini (3). And even that last one is based mostly on Serini crushing on Girard; they could easily be split.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    She could likely do it herself via the appraise skill (assuming they were cast via a common, rare or exotic item).
    Appraise lets one cast 9th level spells? (Also, what does a common Genesis item even look like?)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Appraise lets one cast 9th level spells?
    No but it will let you cost the items.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-12-21 at 02:24 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    With all the "behind his back" shenanigans and the general apathy for the loss of his wife, every reread makes it more clear to me that Soon was probably the only actually decent person in the group, or at least the only person that someone would actually want to be around for longer than 10 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The factions look to have been Soon (1), Lirian and Dorukan (2) and Girard and Serini (3). And even that last one is based mostly on Serini crushing on Girard; they could easily be split.
    Personally I always read it as Soon (1), Serini (2), and the other (3), actually! There’s nothing that outright states that Dorukan and Girard were opposed to each other, after all. Maybe there was no love lost between them but Dorukan never installed a trap designed to blow up Sorcerers or anything.(Or paladins, for that matter.)

    It does seem like Soon was a lot like how Roy acted just after he heard of Durkon’s death - no nonsense, surly, stick-up-his-ass. And he did act a bit dismissive towards Dorukan when he suggested epic spells, and the Sapphire Guard is proof that being a Paladin and being an absolute arse aren’t mutually exclusive.

    It seems like Serini and Kraagor were the only ones holding the team together, though. Girard said that it should have been Soon who died, Dorukan accused him of “not caring if his allies died as long as he could avenge his wife”, and the girls obviously mourned Kraagor’s death. And everyone respected Serini enough to follow her suggestion at least outwardly.

    Also it’s likely that they tolerated each other’s guts enough to make the Gates, so maybe getting a bit of magical assistance before they were finished wasn’t out of the question.

    I wonder if Serini still stayed in touch with Girard, or if Girard only set the Illusion Bomb trap to notify her and there hadn’t been any other communication between them since.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    A quick question, and sorry if it's already been asked: Do we know now that Durkon has a bonus 7th level spell slot because of the second Mass Death Ward he cast (implying either a 14th level of Cleric or 24+ Wis)? Or could he have just cast Death Ward twice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantiumBhuka View Post
    A quick question, and sorry if it's already been asked: Do we know now that Durkon has a bonus 7th level spell slot because of the second Mass Death Ward he cast (implying either a 14th level of Cleric or 24+ Wis)? Or could he have just cast Death Ward twice?
    Level 14 would give him two slots and yes he could have cast Death Ward twice on him and Minrah, so either works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    What the rot! That's crazy.



    (Story-wise I still cannot quite see who could have cost all those 9th level spells for Serini.)
    Girard? From the statements he made in the booby trap to try and kill Soon, it sounded like he and Serini were staying at least cordial, if not actively collaborating.

    EDIT, and I see it's been mentioned. Another vote on Serini and Girard overtly working together. And I think Dorukan probably helped some too.

    I expect we'll find out when the Order talks to her.
    Last edited by Ghosty; 2020-12-22 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I forget, did we ever address Redcloak using Unholy Blight in 1212? Substitute Domain could explain it, and since it lasts so long it's possible Redcloak was still under the effect and just swapped to the Evil domain so he could avoid catching Xykon in the crossfire.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Girard? From the statements he made in the booby trap to try and kill Soon, it sounded like he and Serini were staying at least cordial, if not actively collaborating.

    EDIT, and I see it's been mentioned. Another vote on Serini and Girard overtly working together. And I think Dorukan probably helped some too.

    I expect we'll find out when the Order talks to her.
    I feel like people have been speculating for ages about Serini being alive, but I forgot that she has potentially been alerted to the exact plot for like, half of the comic.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I forget, did we ever address Redcloak using Unholy Blight in 1212? Substitute Domain could explain it, and since it lasts so long it's possible Redcloak was still under the effect and just swapped to the Evil domain so he could avoid catching Xykon in the crossfire.
    An interesting issue with the spell Substitute Domain is that it messes up a lot of the ability of this thread to determine a cleric's actual domains. Does Redcloak actually have the domains Law and Destruction, or was he just using Substitute Domain to gain Hold Monster for SOD and Disintegrate for the Battle of Azure City? Does Durkon actually have the Good domain, or was he using Substitute Domain every time he cast Holy Smite and Holy Word? Same for Hilgya and Chaos Hammer.

    Of course, start pulling on those threads, and the tapestry starts to unravel. How do we absolutely know that Redcloak is lawful, except that he cast Hold Monster, which requires the Law domain (and likewise with Hilgya and Chaos Hammer)? The problem worsens with Durkon, because we used his caster level when he cast Holy Word to determine an awful lot of character levels (Belkar, Nale, Zz'dtri, and Tarquin by my count).

    The can of worms is officially opened.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    An interesting issue with the spell Substitute Domain is that it messes up a lot of the ability of this thread to determine a cleric's actual domains. Does Redcloak actually have the domains Law and Destruction, or was he just using Substitute Domain to gain Hold Monster for SOD and Disintegrate for the Battle of Azure City? Does Durkon actually have the Good domain, or was he using Substitute Domain every time he cast Holy Smite and Holy Word? Same for Hilgya and Chaos Hammer.

    Of course, start pulling on those threads, and the tapestry starts to unravel. How do we absolutely know that Redcloak is lawful, except that he cast Hold Monster, which requires the Law domain (and likewise with Hilgya and Chaos Hammer)? The problem worsens with Durkon, because we used his caster level when he cast Holy Word to determine an awful lot of character levels (Belkar, Nale, Zz'dtri, and Tarquin by my count).

    The can of worms is officially opened.
    You need to be [alignment] to get the [alignment] domain anyways, I believe. And Substitute Domain also grants the domain power as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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