Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

Assuming levels in a specific PrC is kinda silly, especially when precisely one member of the party has one at all and that was a one-level dip. And not every arcane caster takes Archmage either(if only because some are essentially full casting progression with class features for no drawback; Archmage is good but does have a legitimate cost).

I don't think V has to personally hurt Xykon to contribute greatly, though; buffs and battlefield control are usually even more effective than just straight up blasting.

What drawbacks does Archmage have? None that would meaningfully effect V that I can see.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, paying for the abilities in slots? Worth it if you choose decently, but still not costless.

[Peelee]

Regardless of any costs associated with Archmage, is there any reason to believe V took it other than "I think it would be a good idea"?

[TooSoon]

Uh, paying for the abilities in slots? Worth it if you choose decently, but still not costless.

Archmage gives you all the normal spell progression, etc, that you would get if you levelled to the next level of Wizard, so what you're "giving up" is some pretty trivial stuff. The stuff you get in Archmage is far, far better. V doesn't use weapons or fight anyway, so any cost in that respect is meaningless.

[danielxcutter]

I think Peelee has it right there though; there's no reason to suspect V has it other than "it's good".

[Metastachydium]

I don't think V has to personally hurt Xykon to contribute greatly, though; buffs and battlefield control are usually even more effective than just straight up blasting.

(Not that V seems to realize that most of the time.)

[Living Oxymoron]

We have to thank V for his loquacity this time. He gave some information about Serini's speed.

According to him, apparently she is faster than Belkar, so let's see: Belkar has a Barbarian level, which gives him that Fast Movement class feature, so we can infer that he has 20 feet (from his race/size) plus 10 feet (from the aforementioned ability) = 30 feet.

V also tells that she is not moving faster than his maximum flight velocity. If we assume under a Overland Flight effect, he would have 40 speed, which puts Serini with a problable 35 speed. But the math is bugging me on which feats or effects she would have to reach that number. A halfling has a base speed of 20, so she got 15 bonus speed from something. It could not be Expeditious Retreat, because this spell gives the subject speed +30 enhancement bonus. Furthermore, we've seen her spell effects been dispelled. The feat called Dash (Complete Warrior) would increase her speed by 5, which would only give her speed a 25 value. Then, we have Epic Speed, which requires Run, that would give her 30 speed bonus, resulting in a speed 50, which is way higher than the Overland Flight speed.

We have no reason to believe that she is running (using the running tactical movement with or without the Run feat), because that would surpass even a Fly speed (60) so much that Vaarsuvius would assert he could reach her. Plus, these flight spells don't allow the subject to "run" while flying.

That leaves only the Fly spell as a likely option: if Serini's speed is higher than Belkar's (30 feet), than she would have a minimum 35 feet speed, but as explained above, this number doesn't seem probable given the "tools" of the game, since Dash would give her only a speed 25 (lower than Belkar) and Epic Speed, 50 feet of movement. That makes me believe that Serini's speed is 50 (with Epic Speed) and Vaarsuvius is under a Fly effect.

But what I'm talking about? No one cares about that stuff anymore.

[danielxcutter]

Or maybe she just has an item that gives her a bonus to speed. Granted, most of those are shoes though.

[Metastachydium]

We have to thank V for his loquacity this time. He gave some information about Serini's speed.

According to him, apparently she is faster than Belkar, so let's see: Belkar has a Barbarian level, which gives him that Fast Movement class feature, so we can infer that he has 20 feet (from his race/size) plus 10 feet (from the aforementioned ability) = 30 feet.

V also tells that she is not moving faster than his maximum flight velocity. If we assume under a Overland Flight effect, he would have 40 speed, which puts Serini with a problable 35 speed. But the math is bugging me on which feats or effects she would have to reach that number. A halfling has a base speed of 20, so she got 15 bonus speed from something. It could not be Expeditious Retreat, because this spell gives the subject speed +30 enhancement bonus. Furthermore, we've seen her spell effects been dispelled. The feat called Dash (Complete Warrior) would increase her speed by 5, which would only give her speed a 25 value. Then, we have Epic Speed, which requires Run, that would give her 30 speed bonus, resulting in a speed 50, which is way higher than the Overland Flight speed.

We have no reason to believe that she is running (using the running tactical movement with or without the Run feat), because that would surpass even a Fly speed (60) so much that Vaarsuvius would assert he could reach her. Plus, these flight spells don't allow the subject to "run" while flying.

That leaves only the Fly spell as a likely option: if Serini's speed is higher than Belkar's (30 feet), than she would have a minimum 35 feet speed, but as explained above, this number doesn't seem probable given the "tools" of the game, since Dash would give her only a speed 25 (lower than Belkar) and Epic Speed, 50 feet of movement. That makes me believe that Serini's speed is 50 (with Epic Speed) and Vaarsuvius is under a Fly effect.

But what I'm talking about? No one cares about that stuff anymore.

Longstrider plus Dash would result in a 35.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, Serini probably has so many buffs, looking at her through an Arcane Sight would require a Reflex save to cover your eyes before the glow fries your brain, in which case you only suffer incurable permanent blindness.

[Carl]

She was setting up an ambush with a lurker, i would imagine she deliberately moved just fast enough to outrun Belkar and Haley but not so fast she could outrun V. I also agree fly is more likely, it's been V's go to in the past AFAIK. So all we really know is she was moving at a speed greater than 30, (probably 40 as the weirdness of 35 would probably make them wonder whats happening). But her max value could be higher than that.

[DaOldeWolf]

Still, until we get something else about her speed. Its probably for the best to just put it as 35 ft+

[TooSoon]

Still, until we get something else about her speed. Its probably for the best to just put it as 35 ft+

The proof for that hardly seems rock solid, but Serini isn't a caster I guess. I really do feel like Mobutu from Zoolander here. Is the proof that she is definitely 35+? Or just that she "could" be 35, but a lot of other options are open, including not being 35+? Again, it's pretty jarring to go from people opposing the high standard of evidence for V being level 17, or for Tarquin being Epic, and then advocating stuff like this that doesn't even reach a "probable" burden of proof.

[ShadowSandbag]

The proof for that hardly seems rock solid, but Serini isn't a caster I guess. I really do feel like Mobutu from Zoolander here. Is the proof that she is definitely 35+? Or just that she "could" be 35, but a lot of other options are open, including not being 35+?

I'm not sure how much more proof we would need? We know for a fact that Belkar has a speed of at least 30. V says with certainty that Serini is faster than Belkar. Therefore Serini must have a speed of 35+.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of adding it, but that is because no one else has a speed listed, not for a lack of evidence.

[TooSoon]

I'm not sure how much more proof we would need? We know for a fact that Belkar has a speed of at least 30. V says with certainty that Serini is faster than Belkar. Therefore Serini must have a speed of 35+.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of adding it, but that is because no one else has a speed listed, not for a lack of evidence.

Maybe Serini's speed is above 30 thanks to an item. Maybe it's 34, not 35. Do we even know that Belkar has a speed of 30? Not really? Do we know Belkar was even going at full speed? Maybe he wasn't using fast movement just then.

[hamishspence]

Maybe it's 34, not 35.

Speed in D&D 3.0-3.5 is always done in 5ft increments.

[TooSoon]

Speed in D&D 3.0-3.5 is always done in 5ft increments.

Maybe they have an item that increases their speed +3, if that's possible. Maybe the author "isn't consistent about speed" in the comic (insert various examples). Maybe some of the other stuff I said above applies.

[Kornaki]

This just convinces me that you have bad taste in deciding how rock solid different pieces of evidence are. I vote 35+, with a parenthetical that it could be from an item/wand

[TooSoon]

This just convinces me that you have bad taste in deciding how rock solid different pieces of evidence are. I vote 35+, with a parenthetical that it could be from an item/wand

I don't agree. On the one hand, we have the evidence for V being level 17 which is as follows: it is literally impossible to cast a telepathic bond that affects the whole team without being level 17+. The only out is if we assume the author is breaking the rules somehow, which this thread says we should not unless there is specific evidence to that effect in that instance. The separate issue of how BW is included is just "well, the author has ignored familiar distance limits in 100% of cases we can prove it, so we can handwave this part of it too". That approach is the most rules consistent, because we only ignore 1 rule, not 2, and the one we ignore has been ignored completely by the author to date.

In contrast, the evidence for Serini having a speed of 35 hinges on the following:
- Belkar has a speed of 30 (not clear)
- Belkar is using his hypothetical speed of 30 at this time (not clear)
- Serini is achieving the speed of 35+ without some kind of item.
- V's ponderous remark is actually correct, based off the limited and incompete "chase" data they have so far (is this V's area of expertise? Hardly).

[hamishspence]

Belkar is a halfling with at least 1 level of barbarian (+10 speed compared to the norm for halflings which is speed 20). And he does not appear to be wearing medium armour or carrying anything weighing him down significantly.

Thus, he is "Speed 30 unless there is specific evidence to suggest being encumbered or heavily loaded".

[Peelee]

we have the evidence for V being level 17 which is as follows: it is literally impossible to cast a telepathic bond that affects the whole team without being level 17+.

We don't. It's quite possible with three castings, which V is perfectly capable of.

[TooSoon]

We don't. It's quite possible with three castings, which V is perfectly capable of.

That is not shown on panel. By that logic we can throw out Belkar's speed, because we don't know they weren't wearing heavy armour, etc. Sure, it doesn't show up on panel, but we can just use our imagination if we don't like the outcome right.

The post above also glosses over the fact we have no proof Belkar is running at their maximum speed. How would V even know if they were? It's wholly unclear.

[Peelee]

That is not shown on panel.

Neither is the telltale *ding* that occurs on level up. If we can assume level up by Inference, then we can assume spell casting by inference. By RAW and very basic graph theory, three castings can cover the entire party.

[ShadowSandbag]

I think i finally figured out what the issue is. Thinking about it, there is a difference in the burden of proof accepted between V's Level and Serini's speed for example.
However, that difference in proof is also proportional to the importance of the debated fact. Seniri having a speed of 35+ has no real impact on the story, changes nothing about the narrative and is for the most part just a fun fact we can come to. V's being able to cast 9th level spells would have a much larger impact on both V and the party's capabilities and therefore needs more proof.
If anyone thinks I am off base please let me know, but from following this thread for some time now I think that is where the disconnect is.

[Carl]

I don't agree. On the one hand, we have the evidence for V being level 17 which is as follows: it is literally impossible to cast a telepathic bond that affects the whole team without being level 17+. The only out is if we assume the author is breaking the rules somehow, which this thread says we should not unless there is specific evidence to that effect in that instance. The separate issue of how BW is included is just "well, the author has ignored familiar distance limits in 100% of cases we can prove it, so we can handwave this part of it too". That approach is the most rules consistent, because we only ignore 1 rule, not 2, and the one we ignore has been ignored completely by the author to date.

In contrast, the evidence for Serini having a speed of 35 hinges on the following:
- Belkar has a speed of 30 (not clear)
- Belkar is using his hypothetical speed of 30 at this time (not clear)
- Serini is achieving the speed of 35+ without some kind of item.
- V's ponderous remark is actually correct, based off the limited and incompete "chase" data they have so far (is this V's area of expertise? Hardly).

1. Belkar is a halfling Barbarian, his speed cannot be lower than 30 without some specific exceptions we have no evidence for.

2. They're in a chase. In that context weather Belkar can catch her or match her at all is the issue in question, what speed he's currently using is irrelevant to that.

3. The OP does list items, so thats not an argument, we knwo she's 35+, we don't know how.

4. He can see how far she's moved in the last round. If it's more than 30 feet he can make that statement with absolute confidence.

[TooSoon]

Neither is the telltale *ding* that occurs on level up. If we can assume level up by Inference, then we can assume spell casting by inference. By RAW and very basic graph theory, three castings can cover the entire party.

I'm not sure this post is following the point I made. I'll try again.

Your response to me explaining V needs to be level 17+ to, like, actually use the spell on the whole party was to say "he could have cast it 3 times".

My reply was "that is not depicted on the panels we are shown". If we can assume stuff unseen on the panels is there to refute feats of characters, why can I not equally assume Belkar has heavy armour that encumbers him, but the art is not depicting it?

That is what we call checkmate.

Typically we only resort to "maybe it wasn't depicted on panel" as an explanation for something that simply can't work under the rules (e.g. Durkon windwalking the team). If we start using to neuter things that can work under the rules then almost every stat could be nullified in this way. This line of argument should remain a last resort, not a first response.

The above also excludes the other objections I raised, which highlight the inconsistency of the burden of proof. Belkar might not have been running at full speed at all, or Serini could have an item. Apparently these are invalid objections for non-casters, but for V it can be used to terminate pretty rock hard evidence. Sure, it's a chase, but maybe Belkar doesn't want to separate from the party.

NB: I also agree with the poster who said that the reason people have double standards is because they "don't like the outcome" in one case, and do like it in the other. That is just not a valid line of argumentation IMO. The rule of law is meaningless if it only applies to popular cases, and while this isn't a court of law I am on the side of us having consistent principles. There is, as I pointed out, a problematic tension between going by popular support (which is not in the OP framing the thread btw), and applying the rules (which is in the OP).

[ShadowSandbag]

I'm not sure this post is following the point I made. I'll try again.

Your response to me explaining V needs to be level 17+ to, like, actually use the spell on the whole party was to say "he could have cast it 3 times".

My reply was "that is not depicted on the panels we are shown". If we can assume stuff unseen on the panels is there to refute feats of characters, why can I not equally assume Belkar has heavy armour that encumbers him, but the art is not depicting it?

That is what we call checkmate.

In addition to my post above, the answer to this is pretty simple. There is precedent and reason for there to be spells or the like taken between panels, especially if it would take multiple castings. If you want to make the argument that Belkar was not wearing armor, put it on and off between panels and then we saw the next panel you can, but I'm not sure that a feasible argument.

[Peelee]

I'm not sure this post is following the point I made. I'll try again.

Your response to me explaining V needs to be level 17+ to, like, actually use the spell on the whole party was to say "he could have cast it 3 times".

My reply was "that is not depicted on the panels we are shown". If we can assume stuff unseen on the panels is there to refute feats of characters, why can I not equally assume Belkar has heavy armour that encumbers him, but the art is not depicting it?

Because Belkar has done nothing that could be explained by having heavy armor. V has done something that could be examined by casting a spell three times.

I don't think you make very good chess analogies.

[b_jonas]

Belkar says in #1219 last panel that he learned to erase his trail so that law enforcement dogs can't catch him. Can we infer from that that he can't just outrun those dogs, so his speed is not higher than the 40 foot speed of dogs?

[TooSoon]

In addition to my post above, the answer to this is pretty simple. There is precedent and reason for there to be spells or the like taken between panels, especially if it would take multiple castings. If you want to make the argument that Belkar was not wearing armor, put it on and off between panels and then we saw the next panel you can, but I'm not sure that a feasible argument.

We have traditionally only used "they could have done it off panel" as a last resort, not a first response. We could negate all manner of things if we just said "maybe it wasn't depicted on panel fully". There is no hard and fast rule for what heavy armour looks like, or how it is depicted on panel. Maybe Belkar has it under his vest, or maybe it just doesn't show up differently in the art. Plenty of stuff doesn't. If Belkar has it, it changes everything.

There is no principled difference between assuming V's full casting wasn't shown on panel, and assuming Belkar's armour wasn't shown on panel. If people can assume the first, why can't I assume the latter?