Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Peelee]

If Belkar has it, it changes everything.

A.) Meanwhile, if V cast the spell three times, it changes nothing. The amount of things being changed is a large disparity that significantly weakens the analogy.

2.) You are more than welcome to suggest Belkar has heavy armor, and make a case for it.

[Seward]

Even if you're trying to conserve higher spells with resilient sphere, why not just follow up with the grasping hand when she gets out of it. She has literally no escape from it.

Sure she does. She has a wand of dimension door in hand and can speak command word. Not even a concentration check needed.

Haley was able to grapple her because the wand was still stowed at the time, and you need to win a grapple to draw an item (and you can't do that with an escape artist check, which is likely Serini's better option)

[TooSoon]

A.) Meanwhile, if V cast the spell three times, it changes nothing. The amount of things being changed is a large disparity that significantly weakens the analogy.

2.) You are more than welcome to suggest Belkar has heavy armor, and make a case for it.

The issue isn't so much that I can make that argument, it's that people are being selective about when that argument is valid, and when it is not, and the reasoning basically amounts to "this is my preferred outcome". That is the antithesis of reason based decision making. I submit we should be consistent about this stuff. In this particular instance, that means "something not depicted on panel could explain away this event" should be a last resort, not a first response, that we only invoke when the event in question will simply not work under the rules.

Two prominent cases of where it is appropriate to invoke this would be Durkon wind walking the party, and Dorukan's fight with Xykon. Durkon wind walking the whole party with 1 spell couldn't really work, because Durkon had just had their level firmly pegged, and it wasn't really plausible for Durkon to have added the numerous extra levels in the interim to cast the spell on the whole team. As such, "Durkon could have cast wind walk more than once off panel" was a good solution. In the case of Dorukan, the fight simply didn't work within the rules, and the author literally responded with "just assume stuff was happening between the panels in this case".

In the case of V casting telepathic bond, there is no reason for us to search for a way to explain it outside of the events depicted, because V has been due to hit level 17 for a long time, and this is the proof of something that has been in the offing for over 300 comics.

I submit again that we should change V's level to 17+, and resolve the issue.

[ShadowSandbag]

For the purpose of clarity: Due to reasons already put forth, I am against the idea of increasing V's level to 17 at this time.

[Carl]

The issue isn't so much that I can make that argument, it's that people are being selective about when that argument is valid, and when it is not, and the reasoning basically amounts to "this is my preferred outcome". That is the antithesis of reason based decision making. I submit we should be consistent about this stuff. In this particular instance, that means "something not depicted on panel could explain away this event" should be a last resort, not a first response, that we only invoke when the event in question will simply not work under the rules.

Two prominent cases of where it is appropriate to invoke this would be Durkon wind walking the party, and Dorukan's fight with Xykon. Durkon wind walking the whole party with 1 spell couldn't really work, because Durkon had just had their level firmly pegged, and it wasn't really plausible for Durkon to have added the numerous extra levels in the interim to cast the spell on the whole team. As such, "Durkon could have cast wind walk more than once off panel" was a good solution. In the case of Dorukan, the fight simply didn't work within the rules, and the author literally responded with "just assume stuff was happening between the panels in this case".

In the case of V casting telepathic bond, there is no reason for us to search for a way to explain it outside of the events depicted, because V has been due to hit level 17 for a long time, and this is the proof of something that has been in the offing for over 300 comics.

I submit again that we should change V's level to 17+, and resolve the issue.

I don't think your as evidence based reasoning centric as you think they are, (and i say that as someone who's had is obsessive evidence based reasoning and decision making noted on a mental health report).

Here's the thing, reason based thinking requires some form of evidence, be it direct or infferable. And that evidence can be for or against a particular proposition, (which is where i'm going to yank you up and say you've got an issue).

There is neither any other evidence in favour of, or in opposition to V being 17th level. Both explanations fit and nothing contradicts it either way. The fact that there's no evidence of 9th level spells from V is an eyebrow raiser, but if it's recent enough it's reasonable. That said it's still somthing i'd keep an eye on.

Belkar wearing heavy armour is contradicted. The Giant has never previously been shown to change a characters armour, (or clothing or quite a few other things), without updating their artwork to reflect that. The idea that he's made such an error here is completely 100% unfounded. It would require him to have been making repeated errors in Belkar's artwork for many strips. That is competently inconsistent with what he's done previously.

if you want to posit that Belkar is wearing heavy armour you would have to find when his appearance change reflecting that occurred and provide some kind of in comic evidence to suggest he'd changed his armour to heavy and been using it since then.

I'd point out as well a Belkar wearing heavy armour would be expected to cease using 2 daggers at the same time as he'd also lose the use of his two-weapon fighting feats, and his jump checks would take a massive hit. Thats hitting a whole bunch of things that Belkar routinely uses in his fights. Also that would mean the entire order has been moving at a 20 foot movement speed when moving together, there's implications to that too. Have we seen any evidence of that?

At the end of the day if you want to propose somthing you need to not only show that it could be a viable explanation that is happening, but at least attempt to look for and address any possibble negetive evidence against it. It's ok to miss things too, thats why we post in threads like this, so others can think of things we missed.

Finally if you've got two options and one requires explanations for negetive evidence and the other dosen't, (or vice versa), that makes the option that requires no explanations the more likely one in most contexts and situations.

[TooSoon]

We have definitely seen characters have new gear that is not reflected visually on their person. I'll go look up some examples some time if you insist on this, when I get some time to, but to say we have "NEVER" seen this is a pretty remarkable assertion on your part.

The second thing I'd add is that nobody, you included, has addressed the other stuff I said besides this armour hypothetical. Maybe Belkar just isn't going full speed because he wants to stick with the party. Maybe he just doesn't feel like running all out yet. Maybe V doesn't know that and is wrong. Maybe Serini has an item that increases speed. The whole thing is incredibly speculative; which is apparently fine for non-casters, but not for V.

[Carl]

We have definitely seen characters have new gear that is not reflected visually on their person. I'll go look up some examples some time if you insist on this, when I get some time to, but to say we have "NEVER" seen this is a pretty remarkable assertion on your part.

The second thing I'd add is that nobody, you included, has addressed the other stuff I said besides this armour hypothetical. Maybe Belkar just isn't going full speed because he wants to stick with the party. Maybe he just doesn't feel like running all out yet. Maybe V doesn't know that and is wrong. Maybe Serini has an item that increases speed. The whole thing is incredibly speculative; which is apparently fine for non-casters, but not for V.

I said we have NEVER seen someones armour change. And we haven't. We;ve seen some other gear change (small rings and such i belive), or things stored in bags and the like. But not armour.

Also i did address your points previously.

[TooSoon]

I said we have NEVER seen someones armour change. And we haven't. We;ve seen some other gear change (small rings and such i belive), or things stored in bags and the like. But not armour.

Also i did address your points previously.

Someone meaning what? A member of the OOTS, or just anyone in the comic? Armour is special now? We don't see other equipment changes always shown on panel, but for armour we do or the author has "messed up"? Why? Because it's convenient to your argument? Either equipment is displayed when it's changed out or it is not, we can't pick and choose what equipment will be displayed depending on how it suits are desired outcomes at any given moment.

[Peelee]

In the case of Dorukan, the fight simply didn't work within the rules

It does, you just don't like how it does.

[TooSoon]

It does, you just don't like how it does.

This is another comment where what is being said is just flat out wrong on the facts. The fight does not work on the rules, and this has been discussed in excruciating detail on this board. The author himself ADMITS as much, as tells us "just assume other stuff was happening between the panels" (paraphrasing). It's in his quoted comments thread I believe.

For anyone curious, the fight doesn't work for several reasons, 2 of which are particularly glaring. Firstly, Xykon ends the fight getting 5 spells to Dorukan's 2 (or 4 to 1, depending on when you start counting). That is inconsistent with the way rounds and turns work, which is why the author said just assume Dorukan was doing stuff that wasn't depicted on panel, etc. Secondly, Xykon casts Energy Drain, and this somehow dispels Dorukan's flight spell. Again, this is not how the rules work. Energy Drain takes away spell slots, but it does not dispel spells in active effect. Also flight spells, when dispelled, have you gently float to the ground without harm. You do not fall down smack into the ground.

The claim the fight worked within the rules as it was depicted in the comic is simply empirically false.

[danielxcutter]

I’m getting the impression that this is less about proof and more about wanting the casters to be OP, because this is 3.5e of course the casters have to be almighty how dare you suggest otherwise.

Am I warm?

[TooSoon]

I’m getting the impression that this is less about proof and more about wanting the casters to be OP, because this is 3.5e of course the casters have to be almighty how dare you suggest otherwise.

Am I warm?

I just want the casters (and Tarquin) to get the same standard of proof applied to them as everyone else, based on consistent principles of reasoning and not outcome based decision making.

Shadowsandbag doesn't agree with me about listing V as level 17, but at least he's one of those who can admit the standards of proof being used are not at all consistent or fair.

[Carl]

Someone meaning what? A member of the OOTS, or just anyone in the comic? Armour is special now? We don't see other equipment changes always shown on panel, but for armour we do or the author has "messed up"? Why? Because it's convenient to your argument? Either equipment is displayed when it's changed out or it is not, we can't pick and choose what equipment will be displayed depending on how it suits are desired outcomes at any given moment.

No it's about you claiming somthing could happen that has never in fact previously happened. To my knowledge no individual in the comic has undergone a change of armour without an attendant change in artwork. It has never happened. The fact that other gear has does not in any way affect the fact that armour has not, they are seperate types of equipment and have been treated artwork wise according to seperate rules. We've even seen, (on many occasions), big deals being made out of characters getting armour upgrades. Whilst other items have often been glossed over.

On top of all that there's is no, zero evidence of any of the other effects that would apply from that. in fact if anyone can find any evidence of belkar making more than one off-hand attack recently in a single go we can prove that it's not the case because he wouldn't be able to do that without wearing light armour.

I think i get whats going on. I'm a really rules type person myself, but one of the things you have to get, big time, is that hte dividing lines somtimes aren't based on simple categories. Your fixated on the idea, (in our argument), "all equipment must be subject to the same aertwork rules, therefore their equipment could be anything because the visual appearance of the character is completely arbitrary".

thats cool, but wrong. Many items are not consistent in the artwork because they'd involve adding detail in various shots and angle, (especially distant shots), that makes the artwork look bad. Conversely for the same reason larger details, (like their clothes), are consistent because thee's no extraneous detail to mess up the look of the characters in those, the giant literally designs the appearances like that on purpose. In short there's a good reason for the Giant to not keep many types of equipment's appearance consistent, doing so would ruin the artwork, other items however have their consistency as a key piece of the artwork, they need to be consistent. And the giant decides on his own completely arbitrary basis which is which. Which means we have to sit down and work out based on evidence which he isn't being consistent about and which he is because it isn't a fixed rule for all equipment. Based on evidence so far weapons and armour are consistent, almost everything else, (occasional exceptions aside like holy symbols, MitD's umbrella, Xykons new boots, e.t.c), is on "when it looks good to show it" system.

It's the same with same rules. The Giant doesn't adhere strictly to exact wording, but he tends to stay within the broad confines of the rules. He doesn't do whatever he pleases ignoring the rules completely. He makes mistakes, but their the exception not the rule, (pun not intended). In effect he follows the spirit of the rules but not the exact wording.

Also as someone who's been aroudn a while, the thread as a whole tends to err on the side of the least powerful and least change from the status quo when multiple options are available.

[hamishspence]

This is another comment where what is being said is just flat out wrong on the facts. The fight does not work on the rules, and this has been discussed in excruciating detail on this board. The author himself ADMITS as much, as tells us "just assume other stuff was happening between the panels" (paraphrasing). It's in his quoted comments thread I believe.

You mean this post?

The fact of the matter is that there is no possible set of tactics that would ever satisfy the folks who have decided that wizards are always prepared for everything, and therefore, it is a waste of space for me to show such a battle in any more detail than I did. If I had spent six pages showing a complex back-and-forth, the same people would still be complaining because they would claim that the wizard should have prepared such-and-such spell—and then I would have wasted six pages of a finite physical book that could have been devoted to the actual story. It's a moving target that I will never be able to hit, so I've long since stopped trying.

Because let's face it: Dorukan is irrelevant. Narratively speaking, he doesn't matter at all. When you start reading that book, you already know that Xykon kills him and takes over his dungeon. There's no tension there. All the tension in that battle revolves around what Redcloak is going to do about his brother, and that's resolved on the page before. Once that's out of the way, the actual death of Dorukan is an extraneous piece of bookkeeping that needs to be dispensed with in order to get on to the next important part—namely, the final conversation between Xykon and Redcloak. That I even spent three-quarters of a page on it is attributed solely to completing Xykon's "arc," bookending the opening scene with the ersatz Professor X by actualizing the character's emergent philosophy. A bunch of fancy countermeasures and tricks by Dorukan would just undermine the impact of what Xykon was saying.

If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative. I'm sure Dorukan pulled out a spell or two between panels, but since they obviously didn't affect the outcome (because we all know he died before strip #1), I didn't need to show them. It also would have been equally valid for me to just have started page 106 with Xykon holding Dorukan's dead body (which would really have had the wizards-are-always-prepared people howling). Because all you really need to know for the story is, "And then Xykon killed Dorukan." Form follows function, and there's no dramatic function to be had in dwelling on the minutiae of a foregone conclusion.

[danielxcutter]

It'd have been nice if Rich had put a bit more elaboration, and that does sound a bit like that scene was low-key a middle finger towards the wizard supremacists and the rules geeks. But it doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme. It just means Dorukan wasn't able to destroy Xykon before he got drained to death. Frankly, it's surprising that it took that many Energy Drains to finish him off; the average negative levels per Energy Drain is a whopping five and the max a catastrophic eight. There's a core item that negates up to 15 levels before it's spent, maybe Dorukan had that and Xykon just brute forced it.

[TooSoon]

You mean this post?

That's it, though only the last bit is relevant.

We all know the Giant doesn't always follow the rules, but for the purposes of this thread he is assumed to be without specific evidence to the contrary in that specific instance.

[Quartz]

Point of order: if V had 9th level slots then it’d be better to use Crushing Hand.

You are presuming that that spell is in V's spellbook.

[DaOldeWolf]

That's it, though only the last bit is relevant.

We all know the Giant doesn't always follow the rules, but for the purposes of this thread he is assumed to be without specific evidence to the contrary in that specific instance.

Well, I will point out that the comic makes casters cast off screen a lot. But for the sake of a fair judgement, let me offer you a suggestion. Wait and keep track of the spells casts by V. If V casts more lv 8 spells than V would have available when combined with the 3 necessary castings, then the argument wouldn't stand anymore. I think it would help you to be patient. Of course, that is just my piece of advice on the subject. I just don't think there is merit to keep arguing about it until something comes up that might change the picture we have.

[Peelee]

That's it, though only the last bit is relevant.

We all know the Giant doesn't always follow the rules, but for the purposes of this thread he is assumed to be without specific evidence to the contrary in that specific instance.

I don't follow. For the purposes of this thread (ie, to try to see how we could build the characters by RAW), even if Dorukan doesn't cast at all, that's not an issue. RAW does not mandate that casters must cast spells. Sure, it's a good idea, but that's a narrative issue you seem to have, which is wholly irrelevant to this thread. Dorukan could have not cast a single spell the entire fight and it wouldn't have a thing to do with this thread


And in any event, there is specific evidence. The author says "I don't care, if you do then he cast spells off panel why not." There, he casts spells off panel and you don't see them because they don't matter.

[danielxcutter]

You are presuming that that spell is in V's spellbook.

I was speaking of the hypothetical situation TooSoon was bringing up.

[Carl]

Well, I will point out that the comic makes casters cast off screen a lot. But for the sake of a fair judgement, let me offer you a suggestion. Wait and keep track of the spells casts by V. If V casts more lv 8 spells than V would have available when combined with the 3 necessary castings, then the argument wouldn't stand anymore. I think it would help you to be patient. Of course, that is just my piece of advice on the subject. I just don't think there is merit to keep arguing about it until something comes up that might change the picture we have.

It had to be more than one cast.

Hit V, Belkar, Durkon, Roy, Elan, Haley Blackwing, and Minrah. Thats 8 people, that would require caster level 21.

[DaOldeWolf]

It had to be more than one cast.

Hit V, Belkar, Durkon, Roy, Elan, Haley Blackwing, and Minrah. Thats 8 people, that would require caster level 21.

I know. I am just suggesting to TooSoon to shelf the discussion until we have either more evidence or new revelations that my point to an actual need of a change. Especially since I dont see the point in the back and forth. The disagreement points to the need of more evidence for or against the premise to reach a consensus that might be closer to the truth.

[Carl]

I know. I am just suggesting to TooSoon to shelf the discussion until we have either more evidence or new revelations that my point to an actual need of a change. Especially since I dont see the point in the back and forth. The disagreement points to the need of more evidence for or against the premise to reach a consensus that might be closer to the truth.

I know that was what your going for, bu the whole discussion hinges on the number of casts of Telepathic bond needed. Upto now everyone's been stating a 17th level V could have effected everyone. But a double check of the count i just did shows he couldn't. And no ones seriously suggesting he's above 17th, let alone epic level himself.

[F.Harr]

Did they just split the party again? Oy!

[Yanisa]

I know that was what your going for, bu the whole discussion hinges on the number of casts of Telepathic bond needed. Upto now everyone's been stating a 17th level V could have effected everyone. But a double check of the count i just did shows he couldn't. And no ones seriously suggesting he's above 17th, let alone epic level himself.

We already have had this discussion 3 or 4 times, I think we talked about most options, including V being 20 (+1 CL). That option is often quickly dismissed because V was shown to be level 16 (+1 CL), and there aren't enough onscreen encounters or offscreen time to fit in 4 levels.

It is however the strictest RAW interpertation of the scene that doesn't require any new magic items or feats that we have no reason to assume V has.

Here is my list of options:

Spoiler: Sum up of theories

Show

No rules are broken, everything on panel. V affect 7 targets and has a caster level of 21. This leads to V having a character level of 20 and V has leveled up a lot since #1102.

No rules are broken, certain abilities are not visible on panel. V is character level 16 and found a new way to increase caster level 21. We can explain it with one feat: Pious Spellsurge, but there are other methods.

No rules are broken, but buffing happens off panel. A complex weave of three Telepathic Bonds are cast to allow everyone to talk with everyone. V requires a minimum of caster level 15.

One rule is broken, Blackwing keeps the spell despite moving 5 feet away from V. Everything else is on panel. V affect 6 targets and has a caster level of 18. This implies V has leveled up once since #1102 to level 17.

One rule is broken, the amount of targets affected by a buff spell. V caster and character level cannot be determined from this spell.

Or a combination of the above, to make it more complex.

Option 4, Blackwing being ignored, is one of the more most discussed options, hence V being 17 (+1 CL). But because there are other options, there isn't going to be a consensus.

[Quartz]

It had to be more than one cast.

Not correct.

Hit V, Belkar, Durkon, Roy, Elan, Haley Blackwing, and Minrah. Thats 8 people, that would require caster level 21.

V can do it in one cast with a Twinned Telepathic Bond using a 9th level slot.

[Quartz]

Is it too early to point out that we are on page 43 of the thread and that a new thread will soon be necessary?

[danielxcutter]

We usually start worrying about that on page 47~8 or so.

[Riftwolf]

You are presuming that that spell is in V's spellbook.

It's also been shown during the Xykon fight to be a spell he's prepared for. Using it again will end up exactly how it ended up last time.

[danielxcutter]

And besides, Xykon has FoM boots anyways. I expect Xykon to spend about 10~20 strips being completely unharmed by the Order during the last fight.