Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[TooSoon]

A.) There is no reason it would not work in the way depicted. Again, this is basic graph theory. Like, literally day one stuff. The math holds fine. If you disagree, the problem is on your end.
2.) the *ding* level up similarly was not depicted in the actual comic, yet you have no issue with that. You routinely ignore or dismiss anything that does not bolster your crusade for V to be listed as capable of casting 9th level spells. This, like the math, is a problem on your end.



I must have missed your post. Regardless, I doubt I would have agreed with you logic in any event.

1) I've explained this about a dozen times or so now, so I'm going to assume you've read my posts and I don't need to repeat it here. It is not "basic graph theory". The ability to create a 4 seater car does not mean you can then create a 12 seater car by repeating the process 3 times. If you disagree, the problem is your own.

2) I have absolutely no idea what point you are raising here. Literally none. Has anybody talked about the ding level? Has anyone made some kind of argument I'm not aware of that level ups must be shown on panel? I think you've gotten your wires completely crossed here. Nobody, me included, has any idea what you are alluding to. If you want to explain I'm listening, but I mentioned a while back when you mentioned the ding level that I had no idea what you were getting at, and nobody else has addressed it in their posts either. Genuinely baffled.

3) Does energy drain dispel a flight spell? Do flight spells that are dispelled cause you to fall smack into the ground instead of gently floating you to the ground? Is it a well written fight to have Dorukan stand there and do nothing with their rounds while Xykon kills him 1 spell at a time? (such an interpretation is a bigger shot at the author than simply saying he broke the rules btw). I guess in future I will simply say there's no evidence Roy can't fly under the rules, and always could, because maybe he just didn't feel like invoking that power when he fell to his death.

[Rogan]

1) I've explained this about a dozen times or so now, so I'm going to assume you've read my posts and I don't need to repeat it here. It is not "basic graph theory". The ability to create a 4 seater car 3 time does not mean you can create a 12 seater car by repeating the process 3 times. If you disagree, the problem is your own.

2) I have absolutely no idea what point you are raising here. Literally none. Has anybody talked about the ding level? Has anyone made some kind of argument I'm not aware of that level ups must be shown on panel? I think you've gotten your wires completely crossed here. Nobody, me included, has any idea what you are alluding to.

3) Does energy drain dispel a flight spell? Do flight spells that are dispelled cause you to fall smack into the ground instead of gently floating you to the ground? Is it a well written fight to have Dorukan stand there and do nothing with their rounds while Xykon kills him 1 spell at a time? (such an interpretation is a bigger shot at the author than simply saying he broke the rules btw). I guess in future I will simply say there's no evidence Roy can't fly under the rules, and always could, because maybe he just didn't feel like invoking that power when he fell to his death.

1) You have explained your read. But you can't back it up with rule texts, at least I can't remember any. For me, it makes perfectly sense that you can choose every recipient at the time of 'sending' a thought through the bond, without being limited to using one casting of the spell only. So if I have one bond with Peelee and another bond with you, I can send the same thought to both of you at the same time if I want to do so.
Even if you assume this is not the case, taking is a free action (and thinking might be even faster), so I could send the same thought to Peelee first and you second, without any real difference regarding the rules.

2) I think this is a (deliberate) exaggeration. You say you don't want to accept things that might have happened off panel (multiple castings of Telepathic Bond) while at the same time, you want everyone else to accept another thing happening off panel (the level up). It's a rhetoric device to show you are using different measurements for different things.

3) The author stated that the fight didn't happen panel for panel the way it was depicted. The panels showed the most important things: X used brute force to win this fight, playing to the strengths of a sorcerer. Using this fight as an argument of other cases is not very helpful. Using it to argue Roy can fly is completely nonsense and I think you know this.
You could use this fight as an argument for the idea of multiple castings of TB. The important part was shown (V connecting the party) the unimportant part was left out (V using multiple castings).

---

Regarding Serinis Speed, more than 30 (normal speed for an halfling barbarian) seems like a good point. The exact speed is hard to figure out. But I wonder if Haley has a speed greater than 30 as well (without using her boots). After all, V implied that Belkar was the slowest member of the group, which would seem strange to me if he is just as fast as most medium people.

[TooSoon]

1) You have explained your read. But you can't back it up with rule texts, at least I can't remember any. For me, it makes perfectly sense that you can choose every recipient at the time of 'sending' a thought through the bond, without being limited to using one casting of the spell only. So if I have one bond with Peelee and another bond with you, I can send the same thought to both of you at the same time if I want to do so.
Even if you assume this is not the case, taking is a free action (and thinking might be even faster), so I could send the same thought to Peelee first and you second, without any real difference regarding the rules.

2) I think this is a (deliberate) exaggeration. You say you don't want to accept things that might have happened off panel (multiple castings of Telepathic Bond) while at the same time, you want everyone else to accept another thing happening off panel (the level up). It's a rhetoric device to show you are using different measurements for different things.

3) The author stated that the fight didn't happen panel for panel the way it was depicted. The panels showed the most important things: X used brute force to win this fight, playing to the strengths of a sorcerer. Using this fight as an argument of other cases is not very helpful. Using it to argue Roy can fly is completely nonsense and I think you know this.
You could use this fight as an argument for the idea of multiple castings of TB. The important part was shown (V connecting the party) the unimportant part was left out (V using multiple castings).

---

Regarding Serinis Speed, more than 30 (normal speed for an halfling barbarian) seems like a good point. The exact speed is hard to figure out. But I wonder if Haley has a speed greater than 30 as well (without using her boots). After all, V implied that Belkar was the slowest member of the group, which would seem strange to me if he is just as fast as most medium people.

If the point he's trying to get at is that we don't see everything on panel, my answer is … well duh. Nobody, absolutely nobody, is advancing the point we have to see everything on panel. Obviously some of the story happens off panel. We don't see the Order sleeping very much for instance. It would be boring. There's a big difference between saying "the characters slept between comic 207 and comic 208" and "in between panel 8 and panel 9 of what is depicted as a continuous scene, character Y ate a sandwich, cast 5 spells and sang a merry tune". If we start inferring the 2nd sort of thing, virtually nothing in the comic as depicted can be trusted or statted out, because we can invoke our imagination to substitute the events we are actually shown for other events that were not. That is why the only time we can, and should, make such an inference about stuff happening between panels is as a last resort, when the scene simply won't work under the rules otherwise. Dorukan is an example of that I invoked because, yes, the author recognizes what he depicted did not work under the rules (which is why I brought it up as a good example of this).

The type of reasoning Pelee invokes to justify Dorukan fighting "within the rules" (which still fails btw) is exactly the same reasoning for me arguing "Roy could fly within the rules, he just chooses not to, you can't prove a negative". Pelee literally tried to argue "Dorukan just chose not to use his ability to fight back, and did nothing on his turns", I guess cos he was apparently secretly suicidal despite this being completely contradictory to his portrayal in the actual pages of the comic. It's the exact same logic, and it's not a clever riposte or apt response; it's an argument which, if we accepted it, would render almost all stats on this thread meaningless if we allowed it to be invoked elsewhere.

[ShadowSandbag]

1) I've explained this about a dozen times or so now, so I'm going to assume you've read my posts and I don't need to repeat it here. It is not "basic graph theory". The ability to create a 4 seater car does not mean you can then create a 12 seater car by repeating the process 3 times. If you disagree, the problem is your own.

2) I have absolutely no idea what point you are raising here. Literally none. Has anybody talked about the ding level? Has anyone made some kind of argument I'm not aware of that level ups must be shown on panel? I think you've gotten your wires completely crossed here. Nobody, me included, has any idea what you are alluding to. If you want to explain I'm listening, but I mentioned a while back when you mentioned the ding level that I had no idea what you were getting at, and nobody else has addressed it in their posts either. Genuinely baffled.

Actually we have evidence that when a character levels up there is a "Ding" sound effect, per Comic 125.
The point there is that we have evidence in the past that we do see when a character levels up, but there are also times when we don't. Narratively the comic is not always consistent about what it chooses to show. That seems to be the point being made.

I also did want to point out something you said on the other page;

You said the same thing to me about the Dorukan fight only last page, only to stop replying when I explained why your claim was not correct. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now. You just don't like it.

Just want to point out you're now doing your old double standard; there have been numerous times where you have neglected to respond to points people have made towards you. I'm not saying you need to stop and reply to every single post, but calling out someone else for doing the same thing seems hypocritical and counterproductive.



On New Business:

I feel like this is important because the shield is a family heirloom, and Durkon's family is named Thundershield from it just as Roy's family is named of his sword. If Durkon manages to pair it with his new lightning hammer, it will probably reveal its thunder power. But I don't know if he already has the combo, or will have to get it back later.

Do we know if that is the titular Thundershield or if his family is named after one in the first place?

I know its mentioned that its a family heirloom, but I'm not convinced that means its as important as the Greenhilt sword, mostly because its never come up much. Durkon also doesn't seem particularly attached to it from my memory.

What do other people think?

[Rogan]

If the point he's trying to get at is that we don't see everything on panel, my answer is Â… well duh.

The type of reasoning Pelee invokes to justify Dorukan fighting "within the rules" (which still fails btw) is exactly the same reasoning for me arguing "Roy could fly within the rules, he just chooses not to, you can't prove a negative". Pelee literally tried to argue "Dorukan just chose not to use his ability to fight back, and did nothing on his turns", I guess cos he was apparently secretly suicidal despite this being completely contradictory to his portrayal in the actual pages of the comic. It's the exact same logic, and it's not a clever riposte or apt response; it's an argument which, if we accepted it, would render almost all stats on this thread meaningless if we allowed it to be invoked elsewhere.

I think the point is rather, you pick the things you like and ignore the things you don't like. But I think it's better if Peelee speaks for himself, he will know his point much better than I do.


This is simply not true.
It is very much rules legal to skip your turn doing nothing. It's not rules legal for a human fighter to fly (without significant outside interference).
So if you want to go strictly by the rules, not fighting back is legal and could in theory be explained by role playing the shock. But that's not an explanation you need to come up with.
If you want to argue for Roy being able to fly, you would need to give an explanation for why he could do so first.

The thought process should be: Is there a rules legal explanation for the scene that doesn't contradict other scenes? Take it. (V being level 20 fits the first part, but not the second. She was significantly lower level before)

Is there one little assumption you need to make in order to explain the scene? Okay, take that instead. (Durkan casted wind walk multiple times off panel).

For Vs TB, there are many possible solutions, all requiring at least one assumption.
V happened to level up to 20 without anybody mentioning her very significant power boost (unlikely things happened off panel )
The number of targets could be ignored. (1 rule ignored)
V casted the spell multiple times (Things happened off panel)
V gained a level and the distance limit of share spell is ignored (1 thing off panel + 1 rule ignored)
V has an item/special ability/ something similar that allows her to cast with a higher Caster Level, without increasing her Character level (off panel)

You have a clear favorite among those options, but there is no majority backing you up. So keeping the status quo is reasonable. If V casts a level 9 spell next panel, you can brag about being right the whole time (since getting a level up in the meantime is unlikely) but right now, the evidence is not sufficient.

---

Actually we have evidence that when a character levels up there is a "Ding" sound effect, per Comic 125.
The point there is that we have evidence in the past that we do see when a character levels up, but there are also times when we don't. Narratively the comic is not always consistent about what it chooses to show. That seems to be the point being made.

I also did want to point out something you said on the other page;
Just want to point out you're now doing your old double standard; there have been numerous times where you have neglected to respond to points people have made towards you. I'm not saying you need to stop and reply to every single post, but calling out someone else for doing the same thing seems hypocritical and counterproductive.



On New Business:



Do we know if that is the titular Thundershield or if his family is named after one in the first place?

I know its mentioned that its a family heirloom, but I'm not convinced that means its as important as the Greenhilt sword, mostly because its never come up much. Durkon also doesn't seem particularly attached to it from my memory.

What do other people think?

+1 for the old business in both cases. (Does this make it an +2?)

About the new business:

I'm not sure, but I vaguely recall Durkon mentioning getting some equipment from his 'adopted' family. Maybe someone knows the strip in question?

[Peelee]

It is not "basic graph theory".

It really is. You have x vertices and can connect x-1 vertices with edges n times. To connect every vertex to every other vertex, you only need n=3. Again, this is quite literally day-one graph theory. Nearly the most basic graph theory can possibly get.

That is why the only time we can, and should, make such an inference about stuff happening between panels is as a last resort

Ya know, you've said this a lot, but don't really have anything to back it up.

The type of reasoning Pelee invokes to justify Dorukan fighting "within the rules" (which still fails btw) is exactly the same reasoning for me arguing "Roy could fly within the rules, he just chooses not to, you can't prove a negative". Pelee literally tried to argue "Dorukan just chose not to use his ability to fight back, and did nothing on his turns", I guess cos he was apparently secretly suicidal despite this being completely contradictory to his portrayal in the actual pages of the comic. It's the exact same logic, and it's not a clever riposte or apt response; it's an argument which, if we accepted it, would render almost all stats on this thread meaningless if we allowed it to be invoked elsewhere.

A.) Peelee.
2.) Your logic, as it were, relies upon ignoring what the author explicitly said.
iii.) Roy cannot fly because Roy by RAW. Dorukan can, however choose not to cast spells by RAW. Is it stupid? Sure. But it is legal within RAW while Roy suddenly flying is not. You are making up ideas out of whole cloth and then trying to appear triumphant in knocking them down and then claiming solace in your superior arguments. This is, rather notably, not working.

[TooSoon]

You are conflating several different ideas into one idea, which might explain why the analogies are so off.

In the interests of brevity; the logical fallacy I believe you have fallen into is a result of muddling the following 3 distinct lines of argument together. For ease of other readers, I will pick 1 example of each type, rather than all the arguments that fall into it.

1) "I'm not sure the rules support this"
This is the argument I have invoked when, for example, I talk about the possibility that "maybe V could have cast 3 telepathic bond spells off panel". I'm not sure the rules support that contention, and your insistence that they definitely do is impossible for you to prove because it depends on the conception you use. Your "graph theory" conception is not the same as my "4 seater car"/string-theory conception. The rules are not clear, but I find it problematic for the numerous reasons I have articulated through this thread for the spell to work this way. Neither of us can prove their contention in this instance, only argue for why it is more likely, which is why comments that I'm failing to understand basic math completely miss the boat. This is in contrast to...

2) "This definitely does not work under the rules"
In instances where something definitely does not work, one side is wrong, and the other is right. In this case, the person who does not concede is indeed not grasping "basic math". For instance, energy drain does not dispel an active fly spell, and a fly spell being dispelled does not cause the person flying to crash helplessly into the ground. Lastly we have...

3) "You could plausibly argue this works under the rules, but the result of doing it consistently would be utterly absurd and since you're not willing to do that it's a disingenuous argument"
One could certainly argue Dorukan simply chose not to cast any spells on their turn, and waited to die, as you have done; but it would be an absurd result. It's inconsistent with the presentation of Dorukan as a character, who is not a suicidal chap, and is against basic logic... and the author agrees with me, and has said as much. The whole reason Dorukan was brought up was as an example where what we're seeing makes no sense under the rules, regardless of whether we could argue it was "technically possible", and so we need to cast around for an alternative explanation. To argue "it works" is not only inconsistent with what the author has said, and how it is depicted, but is a form of logic that would allow us to negate most of the stats on this thread, as I have explained in some depth. It's why Durkon wind walking is another example; it was "technically possible" Durkon could wind walk the whole party with 1 casting, but given Durkon had just had their level firmly pegged at a much lower CL than required it made no sense.

Hopefully that helps in the future.

I'm taking a break from arguing about V's level, unless I see something particularly egregious, because it's obviously getting nowhere, but I would again point out the problematic double standard that is being invoked, because it's there and it's not the principled way to advance the stats on the thread. All characters should be statted with the same burden of proof. It should be selective reasoning based on what outcome we like.

[b_jonas]

Do we know if that is the titular Thundershield or if his family is named after one in the first place?

We don't know for sure. Nor do we know if Haley's gemstones (that her mother gave to her) are the Starshine gemstones, or whether Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient is the bitter leaf spice that Belkar is named of. It's all just guessing at this point. But the Giant does a lot of planning ahead, Roy's and Girard's surnames did turn out to be important, and getting a lightning hammer with the possible thunder shield is quite suspicious. So I wouldn't be surprised if the shield became important. Who knows, maybe Durkon's old shield was just an ordinary heritage, he actually got the shield off-panel together with the hammer and gauntlets from the Loki Sucks statue, and that new shield is his family's long lost artifact thunder shield that he was destined to recover.

In any case, the first post should at least mention that Durkon has a shield, even if we can't determine its status.

Update: wait a moment. There's also Hilgya's helmet. Does that give him even more bonus for the Loki's Flame Strike spell?

[Rogan]

So I wouldn't be surprised if the shield became important.

<Snip>

In any case, the first post should at least mention that Durkon has a shield, even if we can't determine its status.

I don't think you should be surprised if the shield becomes important. In fact I think you should brag a bit about calling this turn of events if they really happen this way.
But I personally don't think there is enough evidence to include this theory in the stat block right now.

But you have my full support for including his shield in general. I also think it's possible that the shield is the same heirloom he had before, although I'm not sure if there is evidence one way or the other.

[Peelee]

I don't think you should be surprised if the shield becomes important. In fact I think you should brag a bit about calling this turn of events if they really happen this way.
But I personally don't think there is enough evidence to include this theory in the stat block right now.

But you have my full support for including his shield in general. I also think it's possible that the shield is the same heirloom he had before, although I'm not sure if there is evidence one way or the other.

I'm seconding all of this. I don't think Durkons family is named after the shield, since dwarves have full clans with the family name. Also, apparently he's the first one in the family to have the hammer and shield, it looks like? I dunno how that squares away with them being heirlooms.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, it’s obvious he’d have sentimental value for them at the least. Durkon does strike me as a man who’d describe them as family heirlooms if his family bought them for him as a gift.

[Peelee]

I mean, it’s obvious he’d have sentimental value for them at the least. Durkon does strike me as a man who’d describe them as family heirlooms if his family bought them for him as a gift.

Agreed. After all, they came from his aunt, so I could see him figuring they counted as heirloom.

[Rogan]

I'm seconding all of this. I don't think Durkons family is named after the shield, since dwarves have full clans with the family name. Also, apparently he's the first one in the family to have the hammer and shield, it looks like? I dunno how that squares away with them being heirlooms.

Ah, that's the comic I thought about in a previous post. Thanks for linking here.
I guess it would be possible to interpret this as "Durkon had some special training equipment (which he mentioned here) and only got his heirloom (mentioned in the comic in the inn) later". The training equipment might have been adapted to deal non-lethal damage (is this possible? I vaguely recall merciful weapon enchantments but this sounds very expensive) or something like that.

I could see Durkons Shield as the item giving his clan the name. But I don't think this is clear right now, so it should not be listed as such. Listing it as a possibility would be acceptable for me as well, but I'm not sure how well this would work in this thread.

[Seward]

3) The author stated that the fight didn't happen panel for panel the way it was depicted. The panels showed the most important things: X used brute force to win this fight, playing to the strengths of a sorcerer.

Indeed given how the only thing we've ever seen hurt X is Soon's weapon and to a much lesser extent the phantoms, plus one decent swing from Roy's sword....

X is pretty much immune to most things a wizard might do offensively. He's immune to basically all energy attacks, he can probably cast or has an item that can cast shield, he's immune to death magic, mind affecting, paralysis because lich. About the only stuff that does work on him is transmutations (disintegrate and similar) that work on objects. Most of those are high level, possibly drained after he sticks the first energy drain. After the second, none of Durokan's low level spell choices are likely to to meaningful damage. So it doesn't matter what Durokon tried to do, as long as he didn't run away, it probablby wouldn't have worked. That also assumes X didn't also have some counters to spells Durokon might have cast that were one-offs for this fight (eg, he bought a few scrolls before the fight). Given how crazy prepared X was against the sneak-attack from Redcloak's brother, this all seems plausible.

Why Durokon didn't open with a dispell or disjunction is anybody's guess. Maybe he lost init, X readied to cast energy drain when he cast whatever and interrupted the spell with energy drain.

As for falling - once you are killed you become an object, invalid target for fly and you fall. The feather fall effect only helps if you are still a valid target and only actually applies if fly is dispelled. For that matter you also fall if you are rendered unconscious, at least with ordinary flight (I can't remember if overland flight works if you are asleep or similar). Likewise if you exceed heavy load you fall. There's stuff in rules that works, if you assume some stuff happened off camera.

================
Regarding Durkon's shield, I'm pretty sure the one he adventured with pre-vampire is gone. The vampire went around with a robe and staff. Like the hammer and the armor, his shield is something he picked up after returning home.

Now it MIGHT be the ancestral shield for him. After all, they tossed him out on his ass with low-level gear tossed on top of him after he complained. He explicitly didn't have time to pick up any heirlooms from home. So he was probably ejected with normal 6thish level cleric gear from the armory and his gear when he died just had normal upgrades as he leveled. If such an ancestral shield exists his mom probably gave it to him before he left.

But we've seen nothing "on-camera" to indicate his shield is anything special yet, I don't think.

[Peelee]

Ah, that's the comic I thought about in a previous post. Thanks for linking here.
I guess it would be possible to interpret this as "Durkon had some special training equipment (which he mentioned here) and only got his heirloom (mentioned in the comic in the inn) later". The training equipment might have been adapted to deal non-lethal damage (is this possible? I vaguely recall merciful weapon enchantments but this sounds very expensive) or something like that.

I could see Durkons Shield as the item giving his clan the name. But I don't think this is clear right now, so it should not be listed as such. Listing it as a possibility would be acceptable for me as well, but I'm not sure how well this would work in this thread.

Not to be classist, but Durkon grew up notably poor to low-ranking parents and was nothing special until the Order stumbled into a universe-changing plot. I would be quite surprised if he had the sheild his clan is named form

[danielxcutter]

Re: Xykon - if you look outside Core, there are a decent number of spells that can hurt him. There’s a fairly good number of mid-level acid and sonic damage spells. And Archmage’s Mastery of Elements would help. But yeah, being flat-out immune to the three major energy types as well as having undead immunities cuts down on the options a lot.

[Rogan]

Not to be classist, but Durkon grew up notably poor to low-ranking parents and was nothing special until the Order stumbled into a universe-changing plot. I would be quite surprised if he had the sheild his clan is named form

I'm not sure how big his clan is at the moment. If you assume that the clan is nearly extinct, Durkon might be the best candidate to carry this special item. But you are of course right. If there are many members of the clan, Durkon was unlikely to get the shield when exiled. He was not high level or otherwise important enough to receive this honor.

Do you happen to have a link about the size of clan Thundershield?

[Peelee]

I'm not sure how big his clan is at the moment. If you assume that the clan is nearly extinct, Durkon might be the best candidate to carry this special item. But you are of course right. If there are many members of the clan, Durkon was unlikely to get the shield when exiled. He was not high level or otherwise important enough to receive this honor.

Do you happen to have a link about the size of clan Thundershield?

None at all. Not even a good clue about how, exactly, the clans work. You could well be correct. But I would still be surprised.

[b_jonas]

After all, they tossed him out on his ass with low-level gear tossed on top of him after he complained. He explicitly didn't have time to pick up any heirlooms from home. So he was probably ejected with normal 6thish level cleric gear from the armory and his gear when he died just had normal upgrades as he leveled.

Yes, but note the exact words of how he complains, in OotPC page 15: he specifically says “without me armor or weapons”, not “without any armor or weapons”. That suggests that the armor, shield, and hammer that they threw out was already Durkon's. Also on page 19, the high priest of Thor says “he's at home now”, so when he woke up Durkon in page 13, that must have been in Durkon's home, and he had a chance to grab Durkon's items.

Update:

Regarding Durkon's shield, I'm pretty sure the one he adventured with pre-vampire is gone. The vampire went around with a robe and staff.

Greg still had the shield when he teleported straight to the dwarven lands, so the shield was probably still somewhere close. Was it close enough for Durkon to retrieve it? I don't know. But I don't think Greg bothered to destroy or sell it.

Also in #991, we see that Durkon's father has a hammer and some kind of armor that looks similar to Durkon's. No shield, but he's wielding the hammer with both hands, perhaps that's why he isn't carrying a shield.

Update: better still, Tenrin is wearing a strapless thin helmet that is the exact size and color that it could be the heritage shield disguised as a helmet. He might be making good use of that shield, wearing a helmet when he fights by causing the cave to collapse with his hammer.

[Rogan]

None at all. Not even a good clue about how, exactly, the clans work. You could well be correct. But I would still be surprised.

Thanks anyway. I don't have any good points for my guess either, which at least proves it's nothing obvious. Your guess is certainly possible as well and I won't be terribly surprised if the name giving Thundershield turns out to be another object.

(Even less surprised if it never comes up in the comic)

[TooSoon]

Indeed given how the only thing we've ever seen hurt X is Soon's weapon and to a much lesser extent the phantoms, plus one decent swing from Roy's sword....

X is pretty much immune to most things a wizard might do offensively. He's immune to basically all energy attacks

Just FYI, but this isn't remotely true. Firstly we've seen plenty of things hurt Xykon before, and secondly Xykon is vulnerable to plenty of stuff. We had a thread you can go back and read discussing ways V could beat him in a single round. Xykon is a thoroughly overrated character. He has so far lost to Soon, a random Silver Dragon, and a level 9 fighter. Some of his biggest victories, against V and Dorukan, are basically plot armour. We have seen other beings aplenty who would crush Xykon based on what we know, including the Ancient Black Dragon. Xykon would have to flee the moment the flight started against the Dragon basically. Xykon isn't immune to acid or Sonic, nor blunt force, nor typeless damage, nor various other spell effects.

[Carl]

Re: Xykon - if you look outside Core, there are a decent number of spells that can hurt him. There’s a fairly good number of mid-level acid and sonic damage spells. And Archmage’s Mastery of Elements would help. But yeah, being flat-out immune to the three major energy types as well as having undead immunities cuts down on the options a lot.

There's also core's various light spells. That empowered Sunburst did a real number on Xykon, (though ofc V can't replicate that), though how much is hard to figure out and without knowing if OOTS is using maximised HD rolls, fixed average rolls, or random rolls it's hard to get anythign from that, (Also i don't think we have any info on what caster level it was with, could be V's, could be the splices).

[Rogan]

Just FYI, but this isn't remotely true. Firstly we've seen plenty of things hurt Xykon before, and secondly Xykon is vulnerable to plenty of stuff. We had a thread you can go back and read discussing ways V could beat him in a single round. Xykon is a thoroughly overrated character. He has so far lost to Soon, a random Silver Dragon, and a level 9 fighter. Some of his biggest victories, against V and Dorukan, are basically plot armour. We have seen other beings aplenty who would crush Xykon based on what we know, including the Ancient Black Dragon. Xykon would have to flee the moment the flight started against the Dragon basically. Xykon isn't immune to acid or Sonic, nor blunt force, nor typeless damage, nor various other spell effects.

Objection! Roy didn't beat X. A warding rune created by an epic level wizard destroyed X. Roy was involved, but he didn't play the main role.

Also, the thread with the ways to 1shot X was going for the optimal outcome most of the time.

I would also like to point out that there are buffs to make him Resistant to acid or sonic. And his DR is useful against blunt damage, unless it's also magic (which, granted, is likely for a blunt weapon used against an epic level lich). But I think, big X has been seen to use epic mage armor, which would help against things targeting AC.
The ancient black dragon would be dangerous for him but I'm not sure if this would be as clear cut as you make it seem. What would the result of an energy drain be for the ABD? How many till the dragon can't cast Anti magic field anymore? And couldn't X epic dispell the AMF? With Redcloak casting something to prevent the dragon from immediately casting the spell again. Silence for example should help there.

I would ask you to give your sources where you can and mark your opinion as an opinion when you can't give a source.

[danielxcutter]

Also, smiting evil beings in the face is entirely Soon's thing - and sacred watcher makes him even better at that.

[TooSoon]

Objection! Roy didn't beat X. A warding rune created by an epic level wizard destroyed X. Roy was involved, but he didn't play the main role.

Also, the thread with the ways to 1shot X was going for the optimal outcome most of the time.

I would also like to point out that there are buffs to make him Resistant to acid or sonic. And his DR is useful against blunt damage, unless it's also magic (which, granted, is likely for a blunt weapon used against an epic level lich). But I think, big X has been seen to use epic mage armor, which would help against things targeting AC.
The ancient black dragon would be dangerous for him but I'm not sure if this would be as clear cut as you make it seem. What would the result of an energy drain be for the ABD? How many till the dragon can't cast Anti magic field anymore? And couldn't X epic dispell the AMF? With Redcloak casting something to prevent the dragon from immediately casting the spell again. Silence for example should help there.

I would ask you to give your sources where you can and mark your opinion as an opinion when you can't give a source.

1) Ok, if Roy didn't "really" beat Xykon, because it was plot contrivance and outside assistance, then Xykon didn't "really" beat V (or Dorukan), because he also needed plot contrivance and outside assistance.
2) It's functionally impossible to make Xykon immune to everything; in addition, who is doing the buffing here? If the idea is Redcloak is doing it, then what Redcloak does other casters in the Order can undo as quickly. You're not "immune" to something if that immunity is removed by a single spell from the plucky team of adventurers fighting you.
3) The energy drain would do nothing because even giving Xykon the first turn, and having energy drain maxed out, it still leaves the Dragon with plenty of castings of AMF, and once AMF is in effect (which will be move #1) then all Xykon's options are gone, except to run away. Superb Dispelling is a dud option because it inflicts backlash damage, and we don't know if Xykon can do it more than once per day. The number of times he would need to do it to outlast the Dragon's daily use of up to 14-16 castings of AMF is not only implausible, but Xykon would literally die from backlash damage before the Dragon runs out. The dragon is also not standing still; as soon as the AMF is up it uses it's considerable movement speed to pounce on Xykon and grapple him. At that point Xykon can't even cast anymore, and is reduced to a skeleton with a lot of HP basically. His supernatural abilities like damage resistance are all gone in an AMF. Saying "Redcloak can help him" misses the point. We're talking about what Xykon can do on his own power. If this is about getting help then the Ancient Black Dragon goes and gets a bunch of other dragons to help her, telling them their world will be destroyed or whatever (use your imagination) if they don't defeat Xykon. If RC's help is valid, why is Roy using the Gate (or getting the rest of the order to help) also not valid? The ABD stomps Xykon, and in fact Xykon (and RC) were already almost killed by a Silver Dragon.

The point remains; Xykon is being horribly overrated here. I'd pick the Vector Legion over him in a fight, though we don't know enough about them to prove it.

[Carl]

The assumption she'd have massive numbers of castings of AMF is complete speculation on your part, we have no idea how many she has. By default an ancient black dragon doesn't even get access to AMF, (Casts as an 11th level sorcerer), so she must have some sorcerer levels in addition. Unless she's got a silly number of them a maximised energy drain absolutely would shut down her AMF capability. Also he's a lich, he has 15 DR vs every physical attack she throws. That makes the majority need really high rolls to hurt him at all. On top of that she has lousy touch AC and he's got his touch attack paralyse feature, (the save DC for which is high enough she'd have around 50/50 odds without level drain). I don't think he coudl littrially beat her to death with hsi bare hands, but it would be remarkably close.

[danielxcutter]

Sorcerers do have a decent amount of slots even with their highest level spells, and as an ancient dragon who presumably has levels in Sorcerer she probably has enough Charisma to have at least one or two bonus slots. She probably has more slots to cast AMF than he does epic slots.

[Carl]

By default an ancient black dragon has charisma 16. Unless she's got a lot of sorcerer levels she isn't getting any bonus spells. Also all he has to do is use his ground movement speed to walk outside it and hit it with a regular dis junction, it's a 10 foot radius centred on her. I guarantee you he has more of that than she does AMF given his level. At that point he could just hit her with a quickened enervation and likely shut down further castings.

[danielxcutter]

Huh, was expecting them to have much higher Charisma. But it's not too hard for her to have much higher Charisma than the norm; even without items she only needs a 15 before racial modifiers and increase it an extra point to get a 6th-level bonus slot, and she can always use 7th-level slots to cast it. I think there's a feat that lets you convert two slots of a level to one slot a level higher, so if she has that she could cast it even more.

Also, Disjunction isn't a 100% chance do destroy an AMF. It's only CL x 1%. Darth V just got real lucky, and Xykon doesn't even have it.

Edit: also we've never seen him cast a Quickened spell so... yeah. He probably could use it, since if he can cast Still Meteor Swarm he'd probably need something that'd remove the casting time increase... but we still haven't seen it.

[TooSoon]

The assumption she'd have massive numbers of castings of AMF is complete speculation on your part, we have no idea how many she has. By default an ancient black dragon doesn't even get access to AMF, (Casts as an 11th level sorcerer), so she must have some sorcerer levels in addition. Unless she's got a silly number of them a maximised energy drain absolutely would shut down her AMF capability. Also he's a lich, he has 15 DR vs every physical attack she throws. That makes the majority need really high rolls to hurt him at all. On top of that she has lousy touch AC and he's got his touch attack paralyse feature, (the save DC for which is high enough she'd have around 50/50 odds without level drain). I don't think he coudl littrially beat her to death with hsi bare hands, but it would be remarkably close.

This is not "an assumption". We know the ABD is a level 17 sorcerer based on the number of 7th level spells they could cast. AMF is a 6th level spell, and they can use higher level slots to cast it. A 17th level sorcerer can cast 16 spells per day that are 6th level or higher. I remember someone arguing a plausible way the Dragon could be a level or so lower using bonus modifiers, but whether it's 14 castings of AMF per day or 16, it's still way too many for Xykon to plausibly counter; certainly not based off his demonstrated abilities, which is what we actually go off.

Energy drain does not work the way you think it does. Even a maximized energy drain leaves many castings of AMF for the ABD. If you have some alternate math please share it, so I can explain where you're getting mixed up on this.

Xykon does not get paralyzing touch or negative energy or damage resistance in an AMF. As Supernatural abilities they are all cancelled out. He is basically a frisky skeleton with a lot of HP. He will not be beating anyone or anything to death, he will be grappled by the Dragon on the first exchange and then ground to dust from there.