Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I think negative levels only take out your spell slots, not spells known.

If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Superb Dispelling is an epic spell, so even if Xykon is level 27 or so that only leaves him two epic slots after casting Epic Mage Armor on himself. Disjunction has a pretty low chance of popping an AMF, and Xykon probably doesn't even know that spell. Plus, the ABD, being a dragon, can do a pretty high amount of damage even through his DR(and her bite and tail slap bypass it anyways) and AC. Xykon doesn't actually have a lot of hit points; even though he probably still has more hit points than when he was alive he's still got only d12s and no Constitution modifier.

The ABD is intentionally designed to be an incredibly unfair enemy, I don't think it's a real fail for someone to not be capable of soloing her.

[b_jonas]

But it's not too hard for her to have much higher Charisma than the norm;

Yeah. All she needs for that is to have some dragon blood from multiple dragon ancestors, each Half-Dragon template adds 2 to his charisma. This comic is full of Half-Dragons, so it wouldn't be surprising for the ancient black dragon to have been one as well.

[danielxcutter]

...Oh, that was a joke.

[Carl]

Ok fair, i actually had forgotten we'd seen her cast 7th level spells. How many did she cats in total? I can only work it out at 3 assuming she teleported to V. Thats adds upto 8 AMF total, which i admit is a bit less manageable, but it's certainly not 16. No idea where your getting that from. In fact i can't see where your getting 16 from at all, shed have to be taking epic feats for that many, (or have a really high charisma modifier which i don't think is reasonable).

As far as Disjunction. A) the splices where at least throwing some advice/info at V, i don't think they'd have advised him to use a low odds spell. B) the splices wouldn't have had a realistic chance of winning that fight if Disjunction was a low odds of killing AMF there. That goes against the whole point of why they gave V the soul splice, it had to be something that was reasonably going to work. Best guess OOTS is operating on some variant rule there, nothing else really makes sense.

No none of her natural attacks bypass his DR without an AMF, (i'd actually forgot it affected Su abilities, most magic stopping things only hit spell like abilities, thats on me). As far as i could tel from re-reading the monster manual entry on Dragons their natural weapons never become magic for the purposes of bypassing DR. His DR is "Bludgeoning and Magic". Not "Bludgeoning or Magic". The strength modifiers on the tail slap and bite, (i should note that no source i tracked down actually lists the damage type of the dragons attacks, i feel like i'm missing something tbh), do mean they're got the best odds of doing damage through it mind. (the tail actually beats his DR by 1 with just strength), but she'd still struggle to get above the low to mid teens in damage per round with a full attack.

Also whilst i agree he couldn't fight her in an AMF with just his touch attack, that is not a supernatural ability of a lich, or at least it's not listed that way in the SRD. The paralyse is however.

And all of that is of course assuming he doesn't have some other epic level spell or clever feat available for just such a situation. We've no evidence of that of course, but he's nasty enough i wouldn't rule it out, and we are talking hypotheticals.

Also dosen;t all of these arguments work vs Darth V? Why didn't she cast anymore than the 2 AMF's we saw?

[b_jonas]

No none of her natural attacks bypass his DR without an AMF, […] The strength modifiers on the tail slap and bite, (i should note that no source i tracked down actually lists the damage type of the dragons attacks, i feel like i'm missing something tbh), do mean they're got the best odds of doing damage through it mind.

I don't think the strength modifier is applied to the damage for those attacks. The rules say “You apply your character’s Strength modifier to: Melee attack rolls. / Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling).”. That's if the dragon even has the attacks. If she's a Half-Dragon then she has no tail swipe and his claw and bite attacks are so weak they'd be useless in combat against Xykon. That's one of the trade-offs of that template, but then a sorcerer can live just fine without strong nonmagical attacks.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, what? Weren't you arguing that Xykon could use Disjunction to clear away the AMFs? He can't do that, it's not even on his list and he's got less than 1/3 chance of it working anyways.

The primary function - removing all spells and causing all magical items in the radius to stop working, permanently - always works unless the spell itself is disrupted or something. It's just destroying an AMF with it only has 1% for every CL the caster has. Better than nothing, for sure, but that was still a gamble on V's part. It's just that V didn't really have any other option to fight the ABD, since anti-magic is dumb and completely shuts down way too many things. Against Xykon, it'd have worked really well.

The only reason it's not used much in actual games because it works too well - since it removes the magic from magic items as well, it destroys loot when used by the players and makes a player lose almost everything they have when used by the DM.

[Carl]

I don't think the strength modifier is applied to the damage for those attacks. The rules say “You apply your character’s Strength modifier to: Melee attack rolls. / Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling).”. That's if the dragon even has the attacks. If she's a Half-Dragon then she has no tail swipe and his claw and bite attacks are so weak they'd be useless in combat against Xykon. That's one of the trade-offs of that template, but then a sorcerer can live just fine without strong nonmagical attacks.

Um what? Where talking about the Aincent Black Dragon V fought to save his family. She's obviously not half dragon, (DuH), and the rules on dragons specify all attacks excpt Bite and Tail Slap get half strength modifier, (so +5), Bite gets full strength modifier, (+11), and tail slap gets 1.5 times, (+16).

[danielxcutter]

If I'm being entirely honest, you're not doing a great job at being coherent, Carl. There's so many punctuation and capitalization mistakes I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you typing on mobile with the autocorrect off?

[Carl]

Uh, what? Weren't you arguing that Xykon could use Disjunction to clear away the AMFs? He can't do that, it's not even on his list and he's got less than 1/3 chance of it working anyways.

The primary function - removing all spells and causing all magical items in the radius to stop working, permanently - always works unless the spell itself is disrupted or something. It's just destroying an AMF with it only has 1% for every CL the caster has. Better than nothing, for sure, but that was still a gamble on V's part. It's just that V didn't really have any other option to fight the ABD, since anti-magic is dumb and completely shuts down way too many things. Against Xykon, it'd have worked really well.

The only reason it's not used much in actual games because it works too well - since it removes the magic from magic items as well, it destroys loot when used by the players and makes a player lose almost everything they have when used by the DM.

Again if it was a low odds last ditch option to fight the AMF then the soul splice wouldn't have worked and V wouldn't have been able to save his family and go on to do the other stuff which the ICCF setup the soul splice to try and make happen. It's a stupid plan with no payoff on their part if the soul splices don't let V reliably fight the Dragon with AMF.

That leaves 2 options i cna think of:

1. V failed to use the best spell to shut down the AMF, unlikly given we saw the splices where offering advice, they'd have known if they had a better option and suggested it.

2. Disjunctions interaction in OOTS doesn't follow the percentage chance rule.

If I'm being entirely honest, you're not doing a great job at being coherent, Carl. There's so many punctuation and capitalization mistakes I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Are you typing on mobile with the autocorrect off?

No. I'm typing from m PC, i am however Dyslexic and Dyspraxic so i rely on my autocorrect to catch things. Disjunction isn't in it.

[danielxcutter]

It's likely that Rich either ignored or forgot about the % thing. It doesn't make for a good story if V did all that, got all that power, and did jack squat regardless.

No. I'm typing from m PC, i am however Dyslexic and Dyspraxic so i rely on my autocorrect to catch things. Disjunction isn't in it.

...Okay fair enough.

[Carl]

It's likely that Rich either ignored or forgot about the % thing. It doesn't make for a good story if V did all that, got all that power, and did jack squat regardless.



...Okay fair enough.

I'd say it's more likely the Giant just didn't care about the % thing and ignored it. The thing is if he's going to do that for a V vs ABD, then we kind of have to treat the match-up with Xykon under the same rules.

Also thanks for being understanding, between that, mild ASD and often exhaustion from my sleep disorder clear communication is a challenge at the best of times. Though at least these days i finally know about the ASD.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon can't use Disjunction at all, though. He's a Sorcerer, not a Wizard. He doesn't know it and he isn't likely to learn it any time soon.

Superb Dispelling might work, but he's got at most two casting of that per day since he'll need a slot to cast Epic Mage Armor. That won't nearly be enough.

[TooSoon]

The ABD could cast three 7th level spells (Finger of Death, Greater Teleport & Plane Shift). That means they're (at least) a 17th level sorcerer. There is some bonus modifiers they could possibly have to get away with being like level 16, but that also increases your spell bonuses too possibly, so it might not result in any fewer castings. That means the ABD has a minimum of 16 castings of AMF per day. To explain why this is again; [u]a caster can use higher spell slots to cast lower spells, so the Dragon can use their 6th, 7th AND 8th level spell slots to cast AMF; for a level 17 Sorcerer that adds up to 16 slots). Xykon probably can't even use Superb Dispelling more than 1-2 times per day, and even if he could use it 16 times he'd be long dead before he could do so (the backlash damage would kill him long before he hit 16 castings).

Xykon doesn't have Disjunction, it's not on his spell list. V being able to use disjunction with such confidence probably tells us more about Haerta's level (wouldn't be shocked if it was close to 100 after seeing familicide), and maybe Haerta had a way to boost the effectiveness of Disjunction somehow. But even if Xykon did, the Dragon can just cast it again until it doesn't work; of course we can't prop Xykon abilities he doesn't have in this fight (and which frankly it's almost impossible for him to have since we know his three 9th level spells).

Carl, if you examine this page, you will see that DR, paralyzing touch, etc, are all supernatural abilities, and none of them work in the AMF. Xykon has no chance in this fight based on their demonstrated abilities. In a fight with the ABD Xykon will be crushed to powder in an AMF if he doesn't flee on the opening round (and fleeing is basically an admission he can't win).
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
As for why the Dragon didn't use AMF more to fight Darth V, well when you see your AMF get effortlessly 1 shot by disjunction and then followed up by 9th level spell, you're probably going to be thinking "ok, they can probably do that more". V had Epic Magic, and not just the defensive kind it seems like, I don't think any amount of AMFs was going to work. Did you see Haerta's familicide? She was also said to have been able to "snuff out lives with a thought", strongly suggesting she had momento Mori (an Epic attack spell). Heck, even off the limited action we saw Ganonron could just have Epic Teleported the Dragon into a Volcano or something. Xykon's problem is his Epic Spells that we know of are useless offensively.

[danielxcutter]

Did she use Plane Shift, actually? IIRC, she only said she would "disappear from this plane". That can be done several ways, of which "casting Plane Shift under your own power" is only one. Scrolls, for starters, and interplanar portals do exist and sometimes even occur naturally.

Also wow, the more I think about it, the more the ABD seems like BS, even for her likely CR. She's basically a railroad plot statted up isn't she?

[b_jonas]

Um what? Where talking about the Aincent Black Dragon V fought to save his family. She's obviously not half dragon, (DuH), and the rules on dragons specify all attacks excpt Bite and Tail Slap get half strength modifier, (so +5), Bite gets full strength modifier, (+11), and tail slap gets 1.5 times, (+16).

Oh, there's a special rules for dragons about adding the strength modifier to the damage. Sorry, I missed that one, I thought they were like ordinary monsters.

That said, I don't know why you say that she's obviously not a half-dragon. Compared to other dragons, she doesn't seem to have the exaggerated features that half-dragons have. But you can observe that the ABD has her teeth visible on almost all panels, even in #640 4th where her mouth is closed, which does seem unusual compared to the black dragons on page #639, so at least the exaggerated teeth are there. We already know that there are lots of half-dragons in this universe: Girard, Enor, and the troll that Tenrin killed in #991 are all half-dragons, so they aren't exactly rare. And #640 3rd panel says “Given you kind's low rate of reproduction, I estimate that I have eliminated approximately one-quarter of the black dragons on the planet.”, which suggests that there's been so much inbreeding among dragons of the Stickyverse. Perhaps most of the dragons that we see in the comic have a Half-Dragon template or two already, so we don't have a good baseline for the visual comparison.

[TooSoon]

Did she use Plane Shift, actually? IIRC, she only said she would "disappear from this plane". That can be done several ways, of which "casting Plane Shift under your own power" is only one. Scrolls, for starters, and interplanar portals do exist and sometimes even occur naturally.

Also wow, the more I think about it, the more the ABD seems like BS, even for her likely CR. She's basically a railroad plot statted up isn't she?

ABDs whole plan doesn't work if she can't plane shift away on her own power (and how is she getting back if she can't?). I think it's basically as clear as it can be she had it. Even if we inferred she didn't, she'd still be level 15-16 at a bare minimum. Way too overpowered for Xykon to handle.

CR's can be misleading. In 3.5 the Tarrasque only has a CR of 20, but people have noted it's functionally much higher. I read a post ages ago about someone who had faced it off in simulated fights against various Epic monsters and dragons with CR's the in 30 range, and had mostly lost to it. They finally beat it by turning it to Stone with an Elder Epic Gold Dragon, and even that they admitted was a fluke.

[danielxcutter]

ABDs whole plan doesn't work if she can't plane shift away on her own power (and how is she getting back if she can't?). I think it's basically as clear as it can be she had it. Even if we inferred she didn't, she'd still be level 15-16 at a bare minimum. Way too overpowered for Xykon to handle.

CR's can be misleading. In 3.5 the Tarrasque only has a CR of 20, but people have noted it's functionally much higher. I read a post ages ago about someone who had faced it off in simulated fights against various Epic monsters and dragons with CR's the in 30 range, and had mostly lost to it. They finally beat it by turning it to Stone with an Elder Epic Gold Dragon, and even that they admitted was a fluke.

Didn't she just say she would be disappearing from the plane and that's it? She can just use a scroll to leave to a plane of her choosing and never come back, or at least long enough for V to presumably die of old age. It'd only be a fraction of her life, and there's a lot of planes where she could live in - most denizens wouldn't be able to drive her off, anyways.

And honestly, if she's willing to go that far to take revenge on V, she'd absolutely do that for the sake of revenge.

[TooSoon]

Didn't she just say she would be disappearing from the plane and that's it? She can just use a scroll to leave to a plane of her choosing and never come back, or at least long enough for V to presumably die of old age. It'd only be a fraction of her life, and there's a lot of planes where she could live in - most denizens wouldn't be able to drive her off, anyways.

And honestly, if she's willing to go that far to take revenge on V, she'd absolutely do that for the sake of revenge.

I read it as her having it, but at any rate it's irrelevant. She still has way too many castings of AMF for Xykon to survive. Once the AMF is on Xykon will be quickly grappled and crushed to powder.

[danielxcutter]

I read it as her having it, but at any rate it's irrelevant. She still has way too many castings of AMF for Xykon to survive. Once the AMF is on Xykon will be quickly grappled and crushed to powder.

Oh, absolutely. Like I said, her stats should just read "all aboard the railroad plot, choo choo!"

[Emanick]

I read it as her having it, but at any rate it's irrelevant. She still has way too many castings of AMF for Xykon to survive. Once the AMF is on Xykon will be quickly grappled and crushed to powder.

It actually seems extremely relevant. If she casts as a level 15 sorcerer, she "only" has 10 6th and 7th level spell slots - enough to be eliminated by two castings of Energy Drain, or one lucky one (or simply one Maximized Energy Drain, which we know Xykon can cast) if she's already used a couple. And since Xykon also probably typically has two slots available for Superb Dispelling, he can use those if she's almost out of juice.

The text is ambiguous about whether she knows Plane Shift - she simply says she "will leave this plane." A character of her presumed wealth and power has many ways to do that; we don't need to assume that she used her incredibly limited number of spells known to learn the spell, especially since she already knows Greater Teleport, which has some overlap.

I agree with the consensus that's she's an incredibly overpowered being with a broken build, of course.

[Seward]

Just FYI, but this isn't remotely true. Firstly we've seen plenty of things hurt Xykon before, and secondly Xykon is vulnerable to plenty of stuff. .

How many of those things do meaningful damage with lower level slots?
Blunt damage? You're suggesting Durokon would do meaningful damage engaging in melee with his staff and half hit dice? He had no support from fighter-type classes to do such damage.

Empowered sunburst just caused a wince. That's an epic level slot (L10). Not available after a couple energy drains. Even if he had sunburst he probably didn't prep a lot of 8-10th level slots with it.

Shout, Acid Arrow, Vitriolic sphere, acid cloud...these all do only tiny amounts of damage. He'd barely blink. Or he could buy a couple 750gp scrolls and cover sonic and acid before he started taunting Durokon with his girlfriend's spirit. Really of the typical go-to spells for a wizard under 8th level only disintegrate is a serious threat. And a wizard is unlikely to pack more than one, requires sticking both touch attack and a failed save to miss.

What we saw was Durokon summoning minions, buffing himself while minions were effortlessly destroyed by X (clearly D didn't have time stop prepped) and then D doing nothing effective enough to stop X from repeatedly casting energy drains. After X stuck the first couple, D was toast if he didn't simply run with D-door or teleport or similar. You can't beat X with only 6th or lower spell slots to work with barring prepping a bunch of disintigrate spells and unlike V, managing to hit with them instead of wasting them (AMF hoses D more than X, so not helpful even though level 6)

==========
I do however think ABD could defeat X if she could replicate what she did vs V, which is sneak up and grapple in AMF range. (harder with X's racial bonus to listen checks).

Without using AMF, my money is on the big X.

[TooSoon]

It actually seems extremely relevant. If she casts as a level 15 sorcerer, she "only" has 10 6th and 7th level spell slots - enough to be eliminated by two castings of Energy Drain, or one lucky one (or simply one Maximized Energy Drain, which we know Xykon can cast) if she's already used a couple. And since Xykon also probably typically has two slots available for Superb Dispelling, he can use those if she's almost out of juice.

The text is ambiguous about whether she knows Plane Shift - she simply says she "will leave this plane." A character of her presumed wealth and power has many ways to do that; we don't need to assume that she used her incredibly limited number of spells known to learn the spell, especially since she already knows Greater Teleport, which has some overlap.

I agree with the consensus that's she's an incredibly overpowered being with a broken build, of course.

Maximize Energy Drain takes 8 spell slots tops. So if we absolutely lowballed the Dragon as a level 15+ Sorcerer, with no bonuses or extra spells for some reason, they would still have 2 castings left. Since Xykon has never shown the ability to cast Superb Dispelling more than once per day, that still leaves him with 1 dispel too few. Remember, if we're going to lowball the Dragon to the minimum possible stats, we have to do the same to Xykon (so he's level 21+ with 1 casting of SD per day). If we go off what is "likely" I think it's "likely" the Dragon is higher than level 15 and has plane shift, so we're talking 14-16 castings. This strategy also doesn't work because it requires perfect knowledge and optimization from Xykon.
1) Xykon needs to get the first round, against a Dragon who is shown to be meticulous and careful (the opposite of Xykon), and can use Greater Teleport and turn Invisible and consults with an Oracle who seems positively inclined towards her as a fellow worshipper of Tiamat in a way they are not to their normal customers (1 question alone would not have yielded all the information the dragon obtained about V). Chances are high a cautious Ancient Black Dragon with 15-17+ levels in sorcerer actually gets initiative.
2) Xykon needs to know to use (Maximized) Energy Drain right off the bat, which is a weird choice to employ against an Ancient Black Dragon you've just seen that doesn't have an AMF on yet.

Once the AMF is in effect Xykon is boned, and even if we took the most extreme scenario of a) Xykon gets initiative, b) Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain right off the bat, c) Xykon gets 2 castsings of S.Dispelling and uses them effectively to counter, d) the dragon has no extra spell slots, then it still wouldn't matter because e) the dragon can just teleport/scroll-of-plane-shift away and return better prepared, after consulting an Oracle possibly, maybe with an AMF already in effect or a scroll that protects from Death Warding.

So no, Xykon is still the loser even in this cribbed scenario.

As for Seeward, read this thread to start with:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...kon-in-1-round

Xykon got lucky on the Empowered Sunburst FYI, and made their reflex save. Why? Because the plot demanded they did.

[Seward]

As for Seeward, read this thread to start with:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...kon-in-1-round

And all you need to have Durokon fail is to not have prepped those spells OR get drained before he tries them OR X making a couple of 50/50 saving throws. Leaving aside those options (maximized disintegrate+quickened acid orb, for example), the thread has

"use major creation to make a big rock and drop it on X" Leaving aside the targeting challenges (both are flying, the usual mechanic for avoiding such things is a reflex save even if the GM makes up a rule for targeting it, blah blah, and if it takes longer than a round, ghostform might come into play) there's a reason you don't usually see major creation used that way. #1, it is not commonly prepped by casters who aren't doing some kind of crafting job that day, #2, GM's hate attack approaches that break damage/spell level (5th are normally capped at 15d6, so that tactic at best does 15d6 save for half reflex at most tables) and #3 players hate it even more because a GM can TPK any party with it once it is allowed in the campaign. Also Rich doesn't seem to like that sort of thing, even his more innovative casters like Redcloak don't go for that level of cheese.

Archmage levels with energy substitution acid/sonic and X not acquiring some kind of acid/sonic protection before the fight (when doing so is easily in X's wealth-by-level guidlines or just something he can order Redcloak to cast before engaging) AND doing enough damage to matter (again we're back to 50/50 saving throws, speculative hitpoints, not getting counterspelled, interrupted or missing a touch attack)

Binding chain of fate or Imprison+failed save. Both 9th level options. D used "Gate" instead. If D had a one-shot-kill option prepped that day he wouldn't have opened with Gate (or would have at least used it as 2nd spell instead of buffing while X destroyed his summoned minions)

A response that assumes the rest of the Order is there to support (or that D had similar support, which he chose not to use since he flew away from his fortress to engage 1 vs 1)

Aaannnd...that's all. None of the options included anything that would work once you didn't have high level spell slots except the "major creation to drop a rock on him"

[Carl]

Took me a second read of the relevant entries to get what your going for and i'm going to come down on others sides. We don't know that she actually knows planeshift. Pegging her at 15th sorc level makes much more sense and results in much fewer castings. Remember she'd have to actually gain the sorc levels, and even assuming they stack onto her natural spellcasting as if she had sorc levels from that, it's a lot of XP for somthing like her. She even mentions having two scrolls of soul bind on her.


Also again why didn't she use the AMF spam vs V, just because he's slinging 9th level spells around doesn't mean he's packing that many pre-prepared disjunctions. Or by that he's getting lucky that many times, (i absolutely do not believe Horta's level is anywhere near high enough to make it reliable, where talking stupid amounts of XP and levels here. It just isn't remotely realistic they could have gained that many in life). Even with what she'd allready expended she had a lot of extra castings left. He'd have to have a stupid number of pre-prepared castings left.

I'd also point out V's master was indicated to be able to take her, the same AMF stuff would apply there.

[TooSoon]

And all you need to have Durokon fail is to not have prepped those spells OR get drained before he tries them OR X making a couple of 50/50 saving throws. Leaving aside those options (maximized disintegrate+quickened acid orb, for example), the thread has

"use major creation to make a big rock and drop it on X" Leaving aside the targeting challenges (both are flying, the usual mechanic for avoiding such things is a reflex save even if the GM makes up a rule for targeting it, blah blah, and if it takes longer than a round, ghostform might come into play) there's a reason you don't usually see major creation used that way. #1, it is not commonly prepped by casters who aren't doing some kind of crafting job that day, #2, GM's hate attack approaches that break damage/spell level (5th are normally capped at 15d6, so that tactic at best does 15d6 save for half reflex at most tables) and #3 players hate it even more because a GM can TPK any party with it once it is allowed in the campaign. Also Rich doesn't seem to like that sort of thing, even his more innovative casters like Redcloak don't go for that level of cheese.

Archmage levels with energy substitution acid/sonic and X not acquiring some kind of acid/sonic protection before the fight (when doing so is easily in X's wealth-by-level guidlines or just something he can order Redcloak to cast before engaging) AND doing enough damage to matter (again we're back to 50/50 saving throws, speculative hitpoints, not getting counterspelled, interrupted or missing a touch attack)

Binding chain of fate or Imprison+failed save. Both 9th level options. D used "Gate" instead. If D had a one-shot-kill option prepped that day he wouldn't have opened with Gate (or would have at least used it as 2nd spell instead of buffing while X destroyed his summoned minions)

A response that assumes the rest of the Order is there to support (or that D had similar support, which he chose not to use since he flew away from his fortress to engage 1 vs 1)

Aaannnd...that's all. None of the options included anything that would work once you didn't have high level spell slots except the "major creation to drop a rock on him"

Those are ways for level 17 V to win in 1 round if they get lucky; obviously for level 21+ Dorukan it would be even easier to come up with ways to do this, especially because they have Gate, which is completely broken when used effectively and could easily be employed in a way that would wreck Xykon. Not really sure why you're talking about Dorukan, when that thread is about V.

Those options for V all require some luck obviously, because Xykon is an Epic Mage, and V is a level 17 wizard in that scenario, so they are obviously going to need a little luck for a 1 round KO... the fact it is technically possible for a level 17 wizard to do it through a number of different methods (all by themselves) speaks volumes about the claim Xykon is just too OP. He's clearly not. Many, many foes could defeat him.

Took me a second read of the relevant entries to get what your going for and i'm going to come down on others sides. We don't know that she actually knows planeshift. Pegging her at 15th sorc level makes much more sense and results in much fewer castings. Remember she'd have to actually gain the sorc levels, and even assuming they stack onto her natural spellcasting as if she had sorc levels from that, it's a lot of XP for somthing like her. She even mentions having two scrolls of soul bind on her.


Also again why didn't she use the AMF spam vs V, just because he's slinging 9th level spells around doesn't mean he's packing that many pre-prepared disjunctions. Or by that he's getting lucky that many times, (i absolutely do not believe Horta's level is anywhere near high enough to make it reliable, where talking stupid amounts of XP and levels here. It just isn't remotely realistic they could have gained that many in life). Even with what she'd allready expended she had a lot of extra castings left. He'd have to have a stupid number of pre-prepared castings left.

I'd also point out V's master was indicated to be able to take her, the same AMF stuff would apply there.

Well yes, the Dragon has the scrolls of Soul Bind... because that is a 9th level spell, and as a level 17 Sorcerer the Dragon doesn't have 9th level spells yet.

You also seem a bit confused about how a dragon with sorcerer levels work. Basically just like a normal sorcerer. The Dragon has (a bare minimum) 10-16 castings of AMF. Saying "why didn't character X use more optimal tactics in scene XYZ" is not a rebuttal to character X having said powers. We could ask it of Xykon more than most. However, if you want a justification (for the sake of argument) I will provide one. If the Dragon attacks Xykon with an AMF, and Xykon casts Superb Dispelling, then the Dragon loses nothing from re-casting it over and over again to see if Xykon can counter (while observing that Xykon appears to be taking heavy backlash damage from using it). That's less of a sound plan when the person you're fighting effortlessly disjoins your AMF, then follows that up with a quickened disintegrate that took a tonne of HP, because you are taking damage for every attempt at using the AMF, it's not a neutral exchange. The dragon might have died after a few castings, given V's effective level. This doesn't help Xykon however, because he has not demonstrated the ability to quicken spells (assuming Xykon even could quicken anything after an Epic Spell, I'm not sure how that works... nor does Xykon have anything like a Quickened Disintegrate they could plausibly use, given that for spliced V that was likely doing 40d6 damage).

[DaOldeWolf]

I might be missing the point here but what does that ABD vs Xykon had to do with anything here?

I though the thread was for trying to put together the stats for each character. I am not sure how any of this brings us forward its goal. I am really curious about the current discussion purpose.

[Rogan]

1) Ok, if Roy didn't "really" beat Xykon, because it was plot contrivance and outside assistance, then Xykon didn't "really" beat V (or Dorukan), because he also needed plot contrivance and outside assistance.
2) It's functionally impossible to make Xykon immune to everything; in addition, who is doing the buffing here? If the idea is Redcloak is doing it, then what Redcloak does other casters in the Order can undo as quickly. You're not "immune" to something if that immunity is removed by a single spell from the plucky team of adventurers fighting you.
3) The energy drain would do nothing because even giving Xykon the first turn, and having energy drain maxed out, it still leaves the Dragon with plenty of castings of AMF, and once AMF is in effect (which will be move #1) then all Xykon's options are gone, except to run away. Superb Dispelling is a dud option because it inflicts backlash damage, and we don't know if Xykon can do it more than once per day. The number of times he would need to do it to outlast the Dragon's daily use of up to 14-16 castings of AMF is not only implausible, but Xykon would literally die from backlash damage before the Dragon runs out. The dragon is also not standing still; as soon as the AMF is up it uses it's considerable movement speed to pounce on Xykon and grapple him. At that point Xykon can't even cast anymore, and is reduced to a skeleton with a lot of HP basically. His supernatural abilities like damage resistance are all gone in an AMF. Saying "Redcloak can help him" misses the point. We're talking about what Xykon can do on his own power. If this is about getting help then the Ancient Black Dragon goes and gets a bunch of other dragons to help her, telling them their world will be destroyed or whatever (use your imagination) if they don't defeat Xykon. If RC's help is valid, why is Roy using the Gate (or getting the rest of the order to help) also not valid? The ABD stomps Xykon, and in fact Xykon (and RC) were already almost killed by a Silver Dragon.

The point remains; Xykon is being horribly overrated here. I'd pick the Vector Legion over him in a fight, though we don't know enough about them to prove it.

1) Xykon had outside help by Redcloak, a well established member of team evil. He also had the advantage of wards he created on his own. (Battle vs V). That's not comparable to Roy using an (presumably) epic warding rune someone else with no connection to Roy created.
You could compare the X vs V battle to an hypothetical fight where Roy was successful at using his sword and the enchantment Durkon had used in preparation for the fight. That's some well established team member of the order.

2) It's not necessary to make X immune to everything. He only needs to be immune to enough things that guessing what his weakness is takes longer than it the time X needs to energy drain his opponent to death. And it's trivially easy and not that uncommon to get some protection from sonic or acid, especially when you expect a tough fight. Even if you can dispell this protection you need one round to learn that the protection is active, one round to dispell it and a third round to actually take advantage of the opening. That's three rounds where you take about 15 negate levels. Which will lower your chances of successfully fighting back by reducing your attack bonus and save DCs, as well as draining your best spells.

3) Again, Redcloak is an established member of team evil and usually near his boss. That's not remotely comparable to the ABD pulling some Dragon buddies from thin air. But even if we assume that the ABD manages to catch X alone (which would be something she would probably try) X is still an epic lich. He can simply walk out of the AMF at first and do whatever he wants. The dragon can't cast and grapple at the same turn, after all.
There is also the fact that the ABD didn't spam AMF in her fight against Darth V, so she might not cast it again if X proves to be capable of dispelling it as well. And without this advantage, X can quickly brute force her.


In summary: Xykon is the big bad of the story. He might not be perfectly optimized, but he is absolutely capable of winning against most other individuals in the comic. He also rarely operates alone and Redcloak covers many things X can't do himself.
The vector legion struggled in a fight vs an weakened order. Team Evil is a much harder nut to crack.

I also asked in the DnD3.5 forum about negative levels, because I was not sure about the extent of the dangers. According to this answer Energy Drain is much worse than you might think.

---

I'm sorry I brought this up again.

For something completely different, would it be worth it to mention that Durkons Commune spell has a special ringtone?

[TooSoon]

1) Xykon had outside help by Redcloak, a well established member of team evil. He also had the advantage of wards he created on his own. (Battle vs V). That's not comparable to Roy using an (presumably) epic warding rune someone else with no connection to Roy created.
You could compare the X vs V battle to an hypothetical fight where Roy was successful at using his sword and the enchantment Durkon had used in preparation for the fight. That's some well established team member of the order.

2) It's not necessary to make X immune to everything. He only needs to be immune to enough things that guessing what his weakness is takes longer than it the time X needs to energy drain his opponent to death. And it's trivially easy and not that uncommon to get some protection from sonic or acid, especially when you expect a tough fight. Even if you can dispell this protection you need one round to learn that the protection is active, one round to dispell it and a third round to actually take advantage of the opening. That's three rounds where you take about 15 negate levels. Which will lower your chances of successfully fighting back by reducing your attack bonus and save DCs, as well as draining your best spells.

3) Again, Redcloak is an established member of team evil and usually near his boss. That's not remotely comparable to the ABD pulling some Dragon buddies from thin air. But even if we assume that the ABD manages to catch X alone (which would be something she would probably try) X is still an epic lich. He can simply walk out of the AMF at first and do whatever he wants. The dragon can't cast and grapple at the same turn, after all.
There is also the fact that the ABD didn't spam AMF in her fight against Darth V, so she might not cast it again if X proves to be capable of dispelling it as well. And without this advantage, X can quickly brute force her.


In summary: Xykon is the big bad of the story. He might not be perfectly optimized, but he is absolutely capable of winning against most other individuals in the comic. He also rarely operates alone and Redcloak covers many things X can't do himself.
The vector legion struggled in a fight vs an weakened order. Team Evil is a much harder nut to crack.

I also asked in the DnD3.5 forum about negative levels, because I was not sure about the extent of the dangers. According to this answer Energy Drain is much worse than you might think.

---

I'm sorry I brought this up again.

For something completely different, would it be worth it to mention that Durkons Commune spell has a special ringtone?

Because we are derailing the thread somewhat I'm going to recommend taking this to a new thread, perhaps titled "Just how strong is Xykon? Who could beat him in the comics?"

[Rogan]

Because we are derailing the thread somewhat I'm going to recommend taking this to a new thread, perhaps titled "Just how strong is Xykon? Who could beat him in the comics?"

If you want to do this, I would give you my thoughts and opinions about some of the proposed enemies. But I would be fine with shelving this discussion as well. It's up to you.

[TooSoon]

If you want to do this, I would give you my thoughts and opinions about some of the proposed enemies. But I would be fine with shelving this discussion as well. It's up to you.

I don't feel the urge to, because I've already explained why the arguments above are wrong in other posts. Suffice to say, Xykon "walking out of the AMF" isn't going to be any more effective than V trying to fly out of it. The ABD didn't keep trying to cast AMF against V because she didn't want to eat 40d6 damage each time. Since Xykon can't do that, it's a no cost response to just keep on AMF'ing until Xykon runs out of Superb Dispels (or dies from backlash damage).