Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Timy]

"No one cares about that stuff anymore"

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

[Emanick]

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

I fully support this. (Nitpick: I think it should be in quotes.)

[Seward]

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

Seconded.

"No one cares about that stuff anymore" is a fine title for this thread.

[Timy]

Seconded.

"No one cares about that stuff anymore" is a fine title for this thread.

I just checked the actual comics and the correct quote would be : "Nobody cares about that stuff anymore"

[DaOldeWolf]

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

I also like the idea. Full support for this one.

[Peelee]

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

You have my vote.

And my axe!

[Rogan]

I don't feel the urge to, because I've already explained why the arguments above are wrong in other posts. Suffice to say, Xykon "walking out of the AMF" isn't going to be any more effective than V trying to fly out of it. The ABD didn't keep trying to cast AMF against V because she didn't want to eat 40d6 damage each time. Since Xykon can't do that, it's a no cost response to just keep on AMF'ing until Xykon runs out of Superb Dispels (or dies from backlash damage).

Nope. You said you don't agree with them. That's a different thing.

Spoiler: Explanation

Show

If I say V could trap the ABD in an Forcecage, which is immune to AMF, you can prove me wrong by linking to the strip where the dragon escapes from a cage by casting AMF. I would be factually wrong.

If you say the ABD didn't cast AMF against V in order to avoid taking 40d6 damage, I can't disprove you. But I can (and do) disagree.

Spoiler: My counter argument

Show

If V had another casting of quickend disintegrate ready, not casting AMF would not stop it. In fact, it would be even more dangerous, since V could cast an offensive spell using an standard action and cast the quickened spell in the same round, significantly increasing the damage the dragon would take. It might have been a better move from the ABD to spam AMF, hoping that she can cast it more than Darth V could cast disjunction and/or quickend offensive spells. Casting the same spell as often as necessary is the big advantage of sorcerers after all.

So, for your information, I disagree with you. I don't mind if you disagree with me. But don't pretend you could prove me wrong when you can't. If you can prove me wrong and you are eager to do so, feel free to do it in another thread. Otherwise, just shelf it. We disagree and that's fine.

i am not sure if it is already the time for it but i would like to propose this as the next thread title :D

You have my vote.

And my axe!

"And my frying pan!" (Sam, probably)

So yeah, I vote for this name as well

[Quartz]

He's a sorcerer, not a wizard. He can't learn more spells than that amount. It's a limitation of D&D sorcerers that they can only learn very few spells.

That's not actually true now Xykon is Epic level: he can have an unlimited number of Epic spells. Further, as long as the DC is 0 he can create new spells on the fly.

[b_jonas]

That's not actually true now Xykon is Epic level: he can have an unlimited number of Epic spells.

Yeah, I remember we talked about that. The epic rules let Xykon research an epic spell that would be very expensive to cast, but in exchange so easy to research that he gains lots of XP and money and time for researching it, and then he never has to cast the spell. He can then spend that XP and money and time to research overpowered spells that he does cast. It's instant omnopotence, the only prerequisite is that he has to reach XL 22 first.

[TooSoon]

Nope. You said you don't agree with them. That's a different thing.

Spoiler: Explanation

Show

If I say V could trap the ABD in an Forcecage, which is immune to AMF, you can prove me wrong by linking to the strip where the dragon escapes from a cage by casting AMF. I would be factually wrong.

If you say the ABD didn't cast AMF against V in order to avoid taking 40d6 damage, I can't disprove you. But I can (and do) disagree.

Spoiler: My counter argument

Show

If V had another casting of quickend disintegrate ready, not casting AMF would not stop it. In fact, it would be even more dangerous, since V could cast an offensive spell using an standard action and cast the quickened spell in the same round, significantly increasing the damage the dragon would take. It might have been a better move from the ABD to spam AMF, hoping that she can cast it more than Darth V could cast disjunction and/or quickend offensive spells. Casting the same spell as often as necessary is the big advantage of sorcerers after all.

So, for your information, I disagree with you. I don't mind if you disagree with me. But don't pretend you could prove me wrong when you can't. If you can prove me wrong and you are eager to do so, feel free to do it in another thread. Otherwise, just shelf it. We disagree and that's fine.





"And my frying pan!" (Sam, probably)

So yeah, I vote for this name as well

I think I covered this in earlier posts. I don't need to explain "why character XYZ didn't do optimal thing in the comic", a basic premise of this thread (noted in the OP) is that is not a rebuttal to a character having said powers. I went on to say in an earlier post when this came up "hey, if you want a reason though, here's a good one". It makes sense to keep trying AMF when you take no damage from it being dispelled (and the other guy does take visible damage from dispelling it). You've got 10-16+ castings, so there's no reason to stop trying it to see if the guy runs out of dispels, especially when 1) this lich guy is visibly taking damage from dispelling it, and 2) Superb Dispelling is an Epic Spell, so how many can the guy have? (non-epic dispelling doesn't dispel an AMF; strictly speaking neither does Superb Dispelling going off the spell description, but the relevant Epic Seed grants it I suppose). Conversely, you just ate a 40d6 attack after your AMF got disjoined, so if keep playing the AMF game you might be dead in a round or two if you fail your save. Seems foolish.

If the sorcerer knows about Xykon and V intimately, which hasn't been assumed here, then they have even more reason to spam AMF against Xykon, and even less with V (because nothing about what they're doing right now should be possible, and you want to take the most cautious approach... if V can do that again, you could die the next round potentially). I find the Dragon's reaction to V's WTF actions to be very sensible in the circumstances. Get in close and try and inflict huge amounts of damage before they can hit you with more spells like a quickened disintegrate. If V hadn't time stopped that might have worked. Standing there and continuing to try AMF means if V can replicate that WTF ability then you die, and given V is already doing stuff that has you going WTF cos it makes no sense, I wouldn't be gambling they can't do it again.

[Rogan]

I think I covered this in earlier posts. I don't need to explain "why character XYZ didn't do optimal thing in the comic",

I don't demand that you provide optimal tactics. I ask you to either prove me wrong if you can or stop saying you did so when you merely started that you disagree.

It's fine to disagree, especially on hypothetical situations. So, why don't you just accept this instead of insisting that you are right and everybody else is clearly wrong? Because that's the impression I get from your posts.

[TooSoon]

I don't demand that you provide optimal tactics. I ask you to either prove me wrong if you can or stop saying you did so when you merely started that you disagree.

It's fine to disagree, especially on hypothetical situations. So, why don't you just accept this instead of insisting that you are right and everybody else is clearly wrong? Because that's the impression I get from your posts.

Well, that's your impression. It's not what I've been writing RE: the ABDs tactics. I could see how that might have been your impression on reading "The ABD didn't keep trying to cast AMF against V because she didn't want to eat 40d6 damage each time", but it was preceded by the following big chunk of text you also saw which makes it pretty clear that I'm only giving my opinion...

Saying "why didn't character X use more optimal tactics in scene XYZ" is not a rebuttal to character X having said powers. We could ask it of Xykon more than most. However, if you want a justification (for the sake of argument) I will provide one. If the Dragon attacks Xykon with an AMF, and Xykon casts Superb Dispelling, then the Dragon loses nothing from re-casting it over and over again to see if Xykon can counter (while observing that Xykon appears to be taking heavy backlash damage from using it). That's less of a sound plan when the person you're fighting effortlessly disjoins your AMF, then follows that up with a quickened disintegrate that took a tonne of HP, because you are taking damage for every attempt at using the AMF, it's not a neutral exchange. The dragon might have died after a few castings, given V's effective level. This doesn't help Xykon however, because he has not demonstrated the ability to quicken spells (assuming Xykon even could quicken anything after an Epic Spell, I'm not sure how that works... nor does Xykon have anything like a Quickened Disintegrate they could plausibly use, given that for spliced V that was likely doing 40d6 damage).

[Crusher]

I just checked the actual comics and the correct quote would be : "Nobody cares about that stuff anymore"

Oh, darn! I was close! Thanks for the nomination, though!

I 3rd (or 4th, or whatever) the nomination. I kinda lean towards the correct quote but I'm ok with either.

[Bacon Elemental]

Since the whole Xykon vs ABD discussion started based on someone calling Xykon sucky and impotent, I'm not sure why we need to argue over whether he could theoretically win against her - the whole concept of the argument is pointless because the Ancient Black Dragon was an obscenely powerful opponent dedicated to utterly no-selling casters, and could probbably have beaten Darth V easily if she'd just used her sorcery slots to keep casting Anti Magic Field.

With pre-emptive divination and scrying against a target who doesnt know she's after them, followed by an ambush, something that crazed stands a fair chance of ending just about any spellcaster ever written, including many of the charop builds found only in the dark dungeons of these forums, and has incredible sustain.

So while I think she'd take big X to the cleaners, arguing over that fact doesnt really help this class & level thread very much because she'd take most people his level to the cleaners.

[danielxcutter]

She’s probably higher-CRed than most things in the comic barring the archfiends and gods anyways. And dragons are already hideously under-CRed.

[TooSoon]

Since the whole Xykon vs ABD discussion started based on someone calling Xykon sucky and impotent, I'm not sure why we need to argue over whether he could theoretically win against her - the whole concept of the argument is pointless because the Ancient Black Dragon was an obscenely powerful opponent dedicated to utterly no-selling casters, and could probbably have beaten Darth V easily if she'd just used her sorcery slots to keep casting Anti Magic Field.

With pre-emptive divination and scrying against a target who doesnt know she's after them, followed by an ambush, something that crazed stands a fair chance of ending just about any spellcaster ever written, including many of the charop builds found only in the dark dungeons of these forums, and has incredible sustain.

So while I think she'd take big X to the cleaners, arguing over that fact doesnt really help this class & level thread very much because she'd take most people his level to the cleaners.

Disagree she'd have had any real shot at solo'ing Darth V, especially if V fought more competently (i.e. put some buffs on first and stops messing around). V's splices had Epic Attack spells it seems, unlike Xykon, and those shred through an AMF (e.g. Epic Teleport the Dragon into a Volcano, or use Momento Mori which it seemed like Haerta had with that "kill with a thought" reference). It was also clear Haerta had more disjunctions, and the author had the other 2 splices mention it later to rationalize why V isn't using it v.s Xykon (the author realized they'd made V too powerful for Xykon to plausibly beat, so they had to take out Haerta and be like "oh, all these powers that would have made Xykon useless? Haerta had them"). Haerta's level was above the other 2 "by a lot", so much so that Disjunction was apparently a gimme to work (or she had a way of boosting the probabilities of it working), so I don't think more AMFs will work, especially not when you're eating quickened 40d6 damage each time it's disjoined.

Otherwise agree the Dragon is a crazy tough opponents... but just 1 of thousands of dragons in this world it seems, many of which were no doubt stronger than her.

[Rogan]

Disagree she'd have had any real shot at solo'ing Darth V, especially if V fought more competently (i.e. put some buffs on first and stops messing around).

V was pressed for time. If she had spent some rounds buffing, her kids might have died. And she could not resurrect them on her own.
Also, you need to pick a side. Either destroying the AMF and using a 10th level spell was too much of a danger for the dragon to risk it happening again, or it was messing around.

V's splices had Epic Attack spells it seems, unlike Xykon, and those shred through an AMF (e.g. Epic Teleport the Dragon into a Volcano, or use Momento Mori which it seemed like Haerta had with that "kill with a thought" reference).

Can you prove that X has no epic attack spells? Sure, we didn't see him cast any, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And having offensive epic spells seems to be in character for big X.
Also, as far as I know, teleport requires the caster to go along. So V would have needed to protect herself first. It would also prevent her from easily casting familicide, since she needed the ABD for this.
Other attack spells might have worked. But using a save or die effect is always a risk. What if the enemy saves or has protection? You would effectively lose your turn.

It was also clear Haerta had more disjunctions, and the author had the other 2 splices mention it later to rationalize why V isn't using it v.s Xykon (the author realized they'd made V too powerful for Xykon to plausibly beat, so they had to take out Haerta and be like "oh, all these powers that would have made Xykon useless? Haerta had them"). Haerta's level was above the other 2 "by a lot", so much so that Disjunction was apparently a gimme to work (or she had a way of boosting the probabilities of it working), so I don't think more AMFs will work, especially not when you're eating quickened 40d6 damage each time it's disjoined.

Please give my your sources for those statements. Especially the thing about Rich having a sudden realization.
I also want to point out that 10th level spells are rare, so expecting an nearly unlimited number of them for quickened disintegrate is a problem as well.

Otherwise agree the Dragon is a crazy tough opponents... but just 1 of thousands of dragons in this world it seems, many of which were no doubt stronger than her.

I doubt it. She seemed to be an exceptional person, so being one of the strongest dragons is more logical for me than her being merely average. You could be right, but in my mind, it's not as clear cut as you said it would be.

---

That being said, maybe a thread for the ABD and how to fight her might be in order?

[TooSoon]

V was pressed for time. If she had spent some rounds buffing, her kids might have died. And she could not resurrect them on her own.
Also, you need to pick a side. Either destroying the AMF and using a 10th level spell was too much of a danger for the dragon to risk it happening again, or it was messing around.



Can you prove that X has no epic attack spells? Sure, we didn't see him cast any, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And having offensive epic spells seems to be in character for big X.
Also, as far as I know, teleport requires the caster to go along. So V would have needed to protect herself first. It would also prevent her from easily casting familicide, since she needed the ABD for this.
Other attack spells might have worked. But using a save or die effect is always a risk. What if the enemy saves or has protection? You would effectively lose your turn.



Please give my your sources for those statements. Especially the thing about Rich having a sudden realization.
I also want to point out that 10th level spells are rare, so expecting an nearly unlimited number of them for quickened disintegrate is a problem as well.



I doubt it. She seemed to be an exceptional person, so being one of the strongest dragons is more logical for me than her being merely average. You could be right, but in my mind, it's not as clear cut as you said it would be.

---

That being said, maybe a thread for the ABD and how to fight her might be in order?

1) Sure, V was in a rush when they fought the ABD. Understandable. However V in most circumstances fighting the Dragon will not be. The scenario being discussed is not limited to the circumstances that happened, or else we would impose a handicap on Xykon too. It was suggested that Darth V is not normally a match for the ABD fighting intelligently, and they "got lucky". I disagree with both sentiments. The ABD was fighting intelligently, and if V hadn't been in a rush and messing around would have won even more easily. In contrast, Xykon has basically no chance against the ABD. To be clear, V was the one I was saying was messing around, not the Dragon.

2) We go off actual known abilities. Xykon has not demonstrated an Epic Attack spell, so it can't be granted to them. V has 3 of the most powerful Epic casters of all time (not just time limited to this world either), who can pull off insane stuff like Familicide and Epic Teleport. The situation just isn't the same. I suppose one could be uncharitable and say "well, these guys didn't show Epic attack spells either", even though Momento Mori is all but stated, but even Epic Teleport is enough to sort out an AMF; either escaping yourself, or just teleporting the Dragon to instant death (you teleport with them, just they are in the Volcano and you are 100 feet adjacent to it). Xykon doesn't have any of that as far as we know, and is stingy enough with Superb Dispelling that he's not willing to just waste it on 2 random dwarf clerics. Either way, Darth V can Epic teleport out of the AMF multiple times, and just once is enough to get some distance and gate in whatever you need to kill the ABD, or just use your Momento Mori from there. V had more disjunction also, which combined either quickened spells and the ability to buff to protect from an Epic Teleport adds up to the ABD is toast no matter what.

3) In comic #652 there are thought bubbles between the splices where they give some exposition that seemed designed to give the reader some insight as to why V isn't doing these spells. Of course that is my interpretation, but it seems like a pretty obvious one. 10th level spells are indeed rare... for most casters. Not for 3 of the greatest casters to ever live, whose power "dwarfs any caster to ever live", etc, whose effective level is so high you can't even gain XP. Jephton seemed to be a bit weaker than the others, losing their Epic spell slots (plural) after an energy drain, which means they only had between 2 and 8 Epic Spell slots, but V is still busting out level 9 spells and going toe to toe with Xykon even after the following:
a) losing Haerta "by far the strongest" (per comic #641)
b) being hit with a normal energy drain that took all Jephton's Epic Spell slots,
c) being hit with a maximized energy drain, that would have taken the next 8 highest slots from both Jephton and Ganonron, and
d) casting four 9th level spells, four 10th level spells and 3 Epic spells (and I'm not going to highlight them all, it's easy enough to look at the comics from 636 to 653).

That is suggestive of a preposterous number of higher level spell slots.

4) Saying this dragon was "exceptional" seems to be based on wish fulfillment. Black Dragons are actually the weakest of the Chromatic Dragons, and the weakest when compared to the non-Chromatic types. She was also only Ancient. Dragons can get a lot older and more powerful than that. She was better than your average dragon at casting, but otherwise nothing special from the look of it. It's not only plausible there are more powerful dragons around, it's basically a certainty. If there are enough good dragons around for the fiends to promise to kill 5 of them for every one of the hundreds and hundreds of black dragons that died from familicide then clearly the odds are pretty high some of those are at the very least "ancient".

[Gurgeh]

It's effectively impossible to have Epic spell slots left over after getting hit by an energy drain, assuming they are given higher priority than levelled slots. A character gets one epic spell slot for every ten ranks they have in the relevant Knowledge skill, so they scale extremely poorly; you can't have more than two epic slots until you're at least 27th level, and to get a fourth would require 37th level.

So: if you're under 27th level, you will always lose all of your epic slots. If you're between 27 and 37, you have a 1/16 chance to keep one slot (i.e., Energy Drain only gives you two negative levels). If you're in the (already absurd) heights of being level 37, you have a 1/16 chance to keep two slots and a 1/8 chance to keep one.

The only way Epic spellcasting isn't instantly prevented by an Energy Drain is if negative levels are ruled as not affecting epic slots in the first place (which is clearly not the case in the comic).

[TooSoon]

It's effectively impossible to have Epic spell slots left over after getting hit by an energy drain, assuming they are given higher priority than levelled slots. A character gets one epic spell slot for every ten ranks they have in the relevant Knowledge skill, so they scale extremely poorly; you can't have more than two epic slots until you're at least 27th level, and to get a fourth would require 37th level.

So: if you're under 27th level, you will always lose all of your epic slots. If you're between 27 and 37, you have a 1/16 chance to keep one slot (i.e., Energy Drain only gives you two negative levels). If you're in the (already absurd) heights of being level 37, you have a 1/16 chance to keep two slots and a 1/8 chance to keep one.

The only way Epic spellcasting isn't instantly prevented by an Energy Drain is if negative levels are ruled as not affecting epic slots in the first place (which is clearly not the case in the comic).

It would be difficult... if you weren't one of the most powerful casters of all time. I assume there are also ways to boost this ability as well, yes? Anyway, I'd assume Ganonron is above lvl 37 given the stuff he could do. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Haerta turned out to be in the 80s or 90s. Insane, but so is familicide. We're talking one of the greatest casters in the history of the world(s), not limited to 1 plane of existence.

I know some people on here are like "well Rich is just ignoring the Epic rules", etc, but for the purposes of this thread that is not the assumption. I saw someone stat out Cloister to a DC of like 124 in an old post. That is, with cribbing, within the reach of Dorukan and Xykon to plausibly do. Familicide I think I saw someone stat out at like a 520 DC. Epic Teleport is probably in the hundreds also. These guys are actually the most powerful mortals we've seen in the comic thus far, far more than Xykon I'd say.

NB: this was also about having counter measures like a plentiful supply of level 10 slots available, not Epic slots.

[Rogan]

It would be difficult... if you weren't one of the most powerful casters of all time. I assume there are also ways to boost this ability as well, yes? Anyway, I'd assume Ganonron is above lvl 37 given the stuff he could do. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Haerta turned out to be in the 80s or 90s. Insane, but so is familicide. We're talking one of the greatest casters in the history of the world(s), not limited to 1 plane of existence.

We know X has a hard time to find enemy's that give him XP. So getting to level 80 is nearly impossible by the rules. So I think you are seriously overestimating the power of the splices.
The part of V not gaining XP is probably because the Levels got combined to get her challenge rating. Even with a minimal level of 21, adding the levels would get you about 75.
Of course we don't know exactly how the splice works, but insane levels for every splice is but the answer I would go for.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly V only needs an ECL of like 35 or so for it to be completely unlikely for them to gain XP.

[Squire Doodad]

Honestly V only needs an ECL of like 35 or so for it to be completely unlikely for them to gain XP.

Agreed, while I personally would ballpark the Law and Neutral splices as being upper 20s and Chaos as being lower 30s (give or take maybe 5 levels), any trio of Epic character levels being combined into one ECL would make it so functionally nothing could net them exp. This gets even worse when you add a teens leveled character.
Even just as one character, DnD is not a game built to have level 50 characters gaining exp even in settings that aren't sticking to "count the 9th-level Clerics in the world on one hand" environments. Hell, as you said, even level 35 is enough of a brick wall that said entity could go blow by blow through the entirety of Kraggor's Tomb and not get meaningful amounts of exp.

I would say either Epic Teleport and Familicide are the result of "Ganoron's Tome of Circumventing DCs" or are just not meant to be treated as by-the-book Epic spells to research.
Or maybe as Soul Splice candidates, they have the unique honor of being given unlimited time to research spells and not-inconsiderable supplies to do so with. Who knows, but it isn't really something we can say for sure.

[TooSoon]

We know X has a hard time to find enemy's that give him XP. So getting to level 80 is nearly impossible by the rules. So I think you are seriously overestimating the power of the splices.
The part of V not gaining XP is probably because the Levels got combined to get her challenge rating. Even with a minimal level of 21, adding the levels would get you about 75.
Of course we don't know exactly how the splice works, but insane levels for every splice is but the answer I would go for.

In addition to what Squire says above, this point is also wrong because (as I explained) we are not limited to this iteration of the world, or this plane of existence, to draw these 3 casters from. There have been how many thousands of worlds before this one? There have been how many planes of existence from which these souls could be sourced? Enough that any level is in theory possible. In addition, you are not limited to this plane of existence to get XP. Perhaps Ganonron liked to travel to other planes and fight Epic Monsters by the score to level up. Who knows.

The personal experience of Xykon, who isn't very imaginative and doesn't even seem to have the means to traverse other planes under his own power, does not tell us anything about these 3 casters.

[Squire Doodad]

In addition to what Squire says above, this point is also wrong because (as I explained) we are not limited to this iteration of the world, or this plane of existence, to draw these 3 casters from. There have been how many thousands of worlds before this one? There have been how many planes of existence from which these souls could be sourced? Enough that any level is in theory possible. In addition, you are not limited to this plane of existence to get XP. Perhaps Ganonron liked to travel to other planes and fight Epic Monsters by the score to level up. Who knows.

The personal experience of Xykon, who isn't very imaginative and doesn't even seem to have the means to traverse other planes under his own power, does not tell us anything about these 3 casters.

Actually, no.
We know that souls fade over time, and we do not know if the Soul Splice does or does not require a "whole" soul to operate off of. However, given the circumstances, we can assume that souls have a limited lifespan after which they become one with the plane. Not quite immortality, but I'd hazard you get a few centuries if not millennia, so it's a fair deal given our limited mortal desires.
Given that the time between worlds is so long that even gods can fade, we can safely conclude that while an optimistic view of souls and the age of the world could mean it was from any point during this world, it is functionally impossible that any of the splices are from a previous world.


Either way, at a certain point, exp is impossible to gather. Eventually your ECL is so high that even slaying Tarrasque after Tarrasque does nothing for you.

[Rogan]

In addition to what Squire says above,...

Agreed, while I personally would ballpark the Law and Neutral splices as being upper 20s and Chaos as being lower 30s (give or take maybe 5 levels), any trio of Epic character levels being combined into one ECL would make it so functionally nothing could net them exp. This gets even worse when you add a teens leveled character.
Even just as one character, DnD is not a game built to have level 50 characters gaining exp even in settings that aren't sticking to "count the 9th-level Clerics in the world on one hand" environments. Hell, as you said, even level 35 is enough of a brick wall that said entity could go blow by blow through the entirety of Kraggor's Tomb and not get meaningful amounts of exp.

Bolded by me.
A post basically agreeing with my points, so the opposite of your point?

...this point is also wrong because (as I explained) we are not limited to this iteration of the world, or this plane of existence, to draw these 3 casters from. There have been how many thousands of worlds before this one? There have been how many planes of existence from which these souls could be sourced? Enough that any level is in theory possible. In addition, you are not limited to this plane of existence to get XP. Perhaps Ganonron liked to travel to other planes and fight Epic Monsters by the score to level up. Who knows.

The personal experience of Xykon, who isn't very imaginative and doesn't even seem to have the means to traverse other planes under his own power, does not tell us anything about these 3 casters.

We know that only one world exists at a time. We know that the time between two worlds is long enough to starve out Gods. At least in the LG afterlife, the souls cease to exist after some time. The exact time span it takes is unknown, but I don't think they would still be around after the world was rebuild. The world's are very different to each other, after all.
So it seems unlikely that those Souls are from a previous world.

X is just one more point in favor of "epic level creatures have a hard time leveling". And he is among the strongest individuals (semi) alive.
He also has his own private fortress on the Astral plane. He is basically guaranteed to have the means to enter (or at least leave) this place on his own. Otherwise, he would not want to store his soul hiding place there. He would not accept the risk of being stuck there for all eternity. Too boring.

[danielxcutter]

Note: Haerta was likely the NE Splice.

[TooSoon]

Actually, no.
We know that souls fade over time, and we do not know if the Soul Splice does or does not require a "whole" soul to operate off of. However, given the circumstances, we can assume that souls have a limited lifespan after which they become one with the plane. Not quite immortality, but I'd hazard you get a few centuries if not millennia, so it's a fair deal given our limited mortal desires.
Given that the time between worlds is so long that even gods can fade, we can safely conclude that while an optimistic view of souls and the age of the world could mean it was from any point during this world, it is functionally impossible that any of the splices are from a previous world.


Either way, at a certain point, exp is impossible to gather. Eventually your ECL is so high that even slaying Tarrasque after Tarrasque does nothing for you.

I'm sorry but what is the proof all souls fade? Some might, in the LG afterlife particularly, but for all we know it's perfectly possible to choose to preserve a soul for all eternity by just not tapping it's soul energy or some such. Or maybe Haerta had a ring of immortality and lived for 50,000 years. Or maybe she only died relatively recently (whatever that means) after a lifetime of terrorizing other planes of existence, killing Epic Monsters by the score. The Gods fade because they need souls to sustain them, but it's pure speculation from there that any of the above is possible/not-possible.

As for Xykon, his spell slots are pretty full, so I'm not sure how he has a spell to go to other planes under his own power. Of course even if he did, he might just not be interested in doing so much. What spell could he use though? He's got no 7th or 9th level slots free, so that rules out Gate or Plane Shift. What spell is he going there with?

[Rogan]

I'm sorry but what is the proof all souls fade?

As for Xykon, his spell slots are pretty full, so I'm not sure how he has a spell to go to other planes under his own power. Of course even if he did, he might just not be interested in doing so much. What spell could he use though? He's got no 7th or 9th level slots free, so that rules out Gate or Plane Shift. What spell is he going there with?

I think there was word of a certain Giant that all souls fade. I'm not sure about this, but maybe a banana will appear and help me here.

Maybe he has an epic spell for this, although I would not bet on this. I also didn't check his spells we know he knows, so I am not sure if he could squeeze another spell in for this job. However it should be trivially easy for him to acquire scrolls or similar other items.

But even disregarding those possibilities... he has his own pet cleric. And Redcloak can cast those spells whenever he wants.

So, since he doesn't travel the planes, I am going to assume there are many more ranch dressing planes or infinite slopes than inexplicable epic monsters. Ultimately uninteresting.

EDIT:
okay, I've checked it now:

Team Evil

Xykon, pseudonym (SOD)
planar travel spell,

It's even stated in his entry here that he has a spell for planar travel. He was without Red when he build his fortress. See the picture.

[TooSoon]

I think there was word of a certain Giant that all souls fade. I'm not sure about this, but maybe a banana will appear and help me here.

Maybe he has an epic spell for this, although I would not bet on this. I also didn't check his spells we know he knows, so I am not sure if he could squeeze another spell in for this job. However it should be trivially easy for him to acquire scrolls or similar other items.

But even disregarding those possibilities... he has his own pet cleric. And Redcloak can cast those spells whenever he wants.

So, since he doesn't travel the planes, I am going to assume there are many more ranch dressing planes or infinite slopes than inexplicable epic monsters. Ultimately uninteresting.

The Giant has not said anything definitive about how this works, and in addressing the Hel souls issue was extremely vauge. If you can point me to a quote from him that says "Souls from every domain all fade and cannot be preserved" I will gladly recant, but I think we both know there is no such quote.

I agree, Xykon could have scrolls... which is why I said so. How he'd do it under his own power is unclear, since he has no level 7 or 9 spells available to learn the necessary spells. It could be argued that, since Xykon has five spells instead of 3 for 4th and 5th level, perhaps Xykon has bonuses or whatever to get a 4th known spell in 7th level spells, but there's no evidence to that effect. At any rate, even if he had such a spell as Plane Shift it could as easily be he just doesn't use it for acquiring XP on other planes.

To conclude: there is no reason Haerta can't be level 80 or whatever, and the assertion to the contrary was wrong.

Postscript:
The fact 1 poster added it in his stat block as "some kind of planar travel spell" means nothing. We haven't seen him do it, so it could as easily be a scroll. That entry should frankly be removed from his bio.