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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Plus Hilgya actually references using anarchic water for the scrying IIRC, so she'd be Chaotic on that score.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Could the domain be granted by the Red Cloak itself?

    I believe we've had this discussion before. Or something similar to it. I remember making the point that in Rolemaster there were items which give you access to particular spell lists, and it's trivial to transfer that idea to D&D.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Personally I always read it as Soon (1), Serini (2), and the other (3), actually! There’s nothing that outright states that Dorukan and Girard were opposed to each other, after all. Maybe there was no love lost between them but Dorukan never installed a trap designed to blow up Sorcerers or anything.(Or paladins, for that matter.)
    I've said before that there's no way Girard would have made the mistake Lirian did in her defenses: Paladins are immune to magical diseases.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    I've said before that there's no way Girard would have made the mistake Lirian did in her defenses: Paladins are immune to magical diseases.
    Girard bet that a Paladin would break his oath. He doesn’t know jack about them.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Girard bet that a Paladin would break his oath. He doesn’t know jack about them.
    I think Girard would be aware of most mechanical traits a paladin has (he certainly spent a long time adventuring alongside one), but it's likely that in almost every situation in which his bias could plausibly affect his judgment about paladins, it did. So he would accept that Soon was given magical disease immunity by the dumb animal gods he worshipped, but he might not accept that, say, paladins are genuinely honorable people and tend to be honest and loyal (except in situations where it was a bad thing, maybe).

    Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug, and can make people of otherwise reasonable intelligence believe very stupid things. I think that's what was going on with Girard's weird beliefs about paladins. Confirmation bias will absolutely allow you to absorb information that you have no motive to disbelieve, though. So I imagine that Girard, who seems less "stupid" than "biased," would likely know all about Soon's purely mechanical abilities.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I think Girard would be aware of most mechanical traits a paladin has (he certainly spent a long time adventuring alongside one), but it's likely that in almost every situation in which his bias could plausibly affect his judgment about paladins, it did. So he would accept that Soon was given magical disease immunity by the dumb animal gods he worshipped, but he might not accept that, say, paladins are genuinely honorable people and tend to be honest and loyal (except in situations where it was a bad thing, maybe).

    Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug, and can make people of otherwise reasonable intelligence believe very stupid things. I think that's what was going on with Girard's weird beliefs about paladins. Confirmation bias will absolutely allow you to absorb information that you have no motive to disbelieve, though. So I imagine that Girard, who seems less "stupid" than "biased," would likely know all about Soon's purely mechanical abilities.
    Yeah... I remember seeing someone wonder if Girard thought that Soon's order to close the rift while he and Kraagor were still in range was why Kraagor died - because he thought Soon's paladin saves meant it'd be likely for him to survive. That's BS, but then again this is Girard.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I note that we still have Roy listed as having Endurance, due to sleeping in armor without getting fatigued, but this is neither RAW nor (I think) RAI for heavy armor, which Roy has been established as wearing several times now (panel 9 and panel 2), and his armor has not changed in appearance sufficiently to suggest he's upgraded from medium to heavy armor between 162 and 249. May I suggest a Restful Crystal (MIC) instead, which works for heavy armor?

    Also, researching this point has alerted me to an issue in strip 5 where Roy carries Durkon so they can run faster, but if Roy is in heavy armor, they both have base movement speed of 20. Does this mean Roy has the Run feat, or is there another RAW solution? Conveniently, I've just freed up a feat slot for this sup-par feat by eliminating the need for another! I'm assuming Roy has a STR of at least 20, and possibly 22, by this point (rolled an 18, increased at levels 4 and 8, possible Manual of Gainful Exercise), so I don't think carrying Durkon and his armor and other gear would have caused additional encumbrance problems.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Well that's weird. Maybe it's mithral plate?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Well that's weird. Maybe it's mithral plate?
    I also just found the Quickness armor enchantment, but are there any other realistic options (i.e. not specific to a particular world, or non-human race etc.)?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Well that's weird. Maybe it's mithral plate?
    Since Roy explicitly says he wears heavy armor in Book 5, and mithral armor would make it medium, I don't think so.

    I think giving Roy the Run feat would probably make the most sense?
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Mithral would only make it "treated" as medium for many mechanic interactions, but you would still need the feat "Armor Proficiency (Heavy)" to use it. Mithral Full Plate is still a heavy armor, it is merely counted as medium for encumbrance rules and for the Endurance feat (and probably a few other interactions I can't immediately recall).

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Mithral would only make it "treated" as medium for many mechanic interactions, but you would still need the feat "Armor Proficiency (Heavy)" to use it. Mithral Full Plate is still a heavy armor, it is merely counted as medium for encumbrance rules and for the Endurance feat (and probably a few other interactions I can't immediately recall).
    I think that’s only Pathfinder, but I could be wrong.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think that’s only Pathfinder, but I could be wrong.
    Hard to say, as far as I recall Pathfinder clarified the rule (to what they felt the rule already was) but both that reading and others readings are kind of possible.

    Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.
    From the special materials page.

    Ignoring "other limitations" is a messy statement. Is what feat you need an "other limitation"? Or perhaps it refers to the penalties one gets when wearing an armor and not having the right feat?

    Edit: Also the statement "Heavy armors are treated as medium" is one many use to argue the medium armor feat is enough for mithril heavy armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I note that we still have Roy listed as having Endurance, due to sleeping in armor without getting fatigued, but this is neither RAW nor (I think) RAI for heavy armor, which Roy has been established as wearing several times now (panel 9 and panel 2), and his armor has not changed in appearance sufficiently to suggest he's upgraded from medium to heavy armor between 162 and 249. May I suggest a Restful Crystal (MIC) instead, which works for heavy armor?
    Could you clarify what the problem is? If you mean endurance isn't the only way to prevent fatigue, then I get you. But RAW doesn't prevent sleeping in heavy armor, and it clearly does give fatigue when you sleep in heavy armor.

    Sleeping in Armor
    A character who sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a -2 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can’t charge or run. Sleeping in light armor does not cause fatigue.
    From the armor page.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Wasn't Roy pulling an all-nighter most of the time anyways because he didn't trust half the party? Probably not that relevant but...
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.
    From the special materials page.

    Ignoring "other limitations" is a messy statement. Is what feat you need an "other limitation"? Or perhaps it refers to the penalties one gets when wearing an armor and not having the right feat?

    Edit: Also the statement "Heavy armors are treated as medium" is one many use to argue the medium armor feat is enough for mithril heavy armor.
    For the record:
    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 FAQ
    Is a character proficient with light armor, such as a rogue, considered to be proficient with mithral breastplate? What about a character proficient with medium armor, such as a barbarian—is he considered proficient with mithral full plate armor?

    The description of mithral on page 284 of the DMG is less precise than it could be in defining how it interacts with armor proficiency rules. The simplest answer—and the one that the Sage expects most players and DMs use—is that mithral armor is treated as one category lighter for all purposes, including proficiency. This isn’t exactly what the DMG says, but it’s a reasonable interpretation of the intent of the rule (and it’s supported by a number of precedents, including the descriptions of various specific mithral armors described on page 220 of the DMG and a variety of NPC stat blocks).

    Thus, a ranger or rogue could wear a mithral breastplate without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as light armor), and each could use any ability dependent on wearing light or no armor (such as evasion or the ranger’s combat style). A barbarian could wear mithral full plate armor without suffering a nonproficiency penalty (since it’s treated as medium armor), and he could use any ability dependent on wearing medium or lighter armor (such as fast movement).

    The same would be true of any other special material that uses the same or similar language as mithral (such as darkleaf, on page 120 of the ECS).
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    Could you clarify what the problem is? If you mean endurance isn't the only way to prevent fatigue, then I get you. But RAW doesn't prevent sleeping in heavy armor, and it clearly does give fatigue when you sleep in heavy armor.
    I think the issue I was raising is that Endurance only prevents fatigue when sleeping in medium armor, not heavy, so would actually make no difference at all to Roy's sleeping-while-armored fatigue, if Roy has in fact been wearing heavy armor all this time.

    I would also say that if mithral effectively makes heavy armor into medium armor in all mechanical respects, then Roy wouldn't refer to his armor as heavy, so I still think a Restful Crystal makes more sense. I don't think we've listed MIC as a source yet, so that may be controversial to some to add it on this basis.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I think it makes enough sense for him to not have Endurance listed, but do we know that he wasn't exhausted after sleeping in heavy armor? And there are spells that aid with that as well, I'm pretty sure.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think it makes enough sense for him to not have Endurance listed, but do we know that he wasn't exhausted after sleeping in heavy armor? And there are spells that aid with that as well, I'm pretty sure.
    I suppose if there was reason enough to list Endurance, there's reason enough to list an alternate method of dealing with sleeping-in-armor fatigue. Lesser Restoration is a level 2 cleric spell; it's a bit of an ask for Roy to get Durkon to prepare that every adventuring day and cast it on him each morning, especially when they were level 9, but it's plausible, I guess. Ray of Resurgence is Cleric 1 and Wizard 2, but it's Faerun, don't know if that works in OOTSverse.

    I just reckon a Restful Crystal would be as sensible an investment for Roy as taking Endurance; it's only 500 GP, and would transfer from armor to armor if he upgraded. The STR and DEX hit from fatigue would be relevant to him, as would preventing charging; I can't see him wanting that every adventure. We never see him taking armor off during situations he's expecting combat, so he obviously wants to be ready to fight at short notice (as befits a martial that would know he needs to protect the spellcasters if the party is ambushed while they're sleeping).

    I'm not absolutely convinced Roy's wearing full plate, even though their armors are drawn similarly, as he wasn't making as much noise as Durkon here, but we know Roy has Dex of 13+ and Durkon has Dex less than 10, and Roy is known to invest in cross-class skills, so his Move Silently rank is probably higher than Durkon's as well. Whatever he's wearing, he wouldn't want to take a minimum of 10 rounds to don it hastily during an ambush!
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  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Roy probably has some Dex, and Durkon’s armor apparently isn’t even masterwork. Or it’s Heavy Plate or whatever that armor from Races of Stone was called.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I note that we still have Roy listed as having Endurance, due to sleeping in armor without getting fatigued, but this is neither RAW nor (I think) RAI for heavy armor, which Roy has been established as wearing several times now (panel 9 and panel 2),
    I think in that strip Belkar isn't referring to the class of armour there but its sheer mass (remember that it would indeed be very heavy for him). I think we've only seen Roy with breastplate and pauldrons (classed as Medium Armour in the SRD) - I'm thinking of that scene with Celia after his resurrection - so it's entirely possible that Roy has, in fact, Medium armour. And thus the Endurance feat.

    TLDR: differentiate between armour being heavy and armour being Heavy Armour.
    Last edited by Quartz; 2021-01-01 at 07:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Miko says in #224 that “There aren't even rules for sleeping”, so that suggests that the rules about sleeping in armor don't apply in the OotSverse. However, Miko is dual-classed from monk, so perhaps she's not familiar with armor and simply mistaken about this.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Miko says in #224 that “There aren't even rules for sleeping”, so that suggests that the rules about sleeping in armor don't apply in the OotSverse. However, Miko is dual-classed from monk, so perhaps she's not familiar with armor and simply mistaken about this.
    From memory, 3.5 didn't have any rules about getting tired and *needing* sleep (unless you were a spellcaster, and even then you had the 'restful activity' caveat V uses on the island). There's a lot of blind spots in the game like that.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Actually there is something in Elder Evils, but that's unnatural insomnia caused by an excess of tainted positive energy or something. And off the top of my head, I think there was an NPC who hadn't been sleeping so he'd been using potions of Lesser Restoration for that in one of the campaign modules. Could have been Red Hand of Doom, but knowing my memory it could easily be Shackled City or something instead. Probably not Savage Tide or Age of Worms though.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    From memory, 3.5 didn't have any rules about getting tired and *needing* sleep (unless you were a spellcaster, and even then you had the 'restful activity' caveat V uses on the island). There's a lot of blind spots in the game like that.
    I don't think this is an oversight or blind spot. Whether the character sleeps or rests otherwise is their private matter and not relevant to the mechanics that D&D 3.5 cares about.

    There are rules saying “In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating,” and a lot of more details elaborating on this. That means that a D&D character can't just choose to skip sleeping and spend that time actively on exploration, and this applies whether the character is a human, an elf, or a lich. There's also a rule that Xykon referenced about creating magic items: “The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day.” So the same applies there: whether the spellcaster sleeps the rest of the time is irrelevant. You would perhaps need a rule for how much time each day Redcloak and Xykon needs for the Gate ritual, which takes “a few weeks”. I don't think D&D 3.5 talks about rituals with such long casting time, though perhaps there's something in the epic spellcasting rules.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Presumably someone either expected the casters to do nothing but stand there and do the ritual, or forgot entirely.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I don't think this is an oversight or blind spot. Whether the character sleeps or rests otherwise is their private matter and not relevant to the mechanics that D&D 3.5 cares about.

    There are rules saying “In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating,” and a lot of more details elaborating on this. That means that a D&D character can't just choose to skip sleeping and spend that time actively on exploration, and this applies whether the character is a human, an elf, or a lich. There's also a rule that Xykon referenced about creating magic items: “The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day.” So the same applies there: whether the spellcaster sleeps the rest of the time is irrelevant. You would perhaps need a rule for how much time each day Redcloak and Xykon needs for the Gate ritual, which takes “a few weeks”. I don't think D&D 3.5 talks about rituals with such long casting time, though perhaps there's something in the epic spellcasting rules.
    The Gate Ritual is a homebrew thing, but if it follows the rule for long casting time spells, it means they are only "casting" for 8 hours a day. See Genesis for an example.

    The only "oversight" in the whole sleeping thing is that there are no penalties associated with not sleeping. The rules don't prevents a character from staying up all night to stand guard against an ambush. Heck sleep isn't even called out for regaining spells. V also references that here, second to last panel, but apparently there are penalties. Just not rule based penalties but instead "role play penalties".
    Last edited by Yanisa; 2021-01-02 at 04:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Despite the claims that there are no penalties, V clearly has a penalty to attack rolls because they haven't slept enough.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    Despite the claims that there are no penalties, V clearly has a penalty to attack rolls because they haven't slept enough.
    Tranced. Elves don't sleep.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    Despite the claims that there are no penalties, V clearly has a penalty to attack rolls because they haven't slept enough.
    I considered it, but it's really hard to say anything conclusive. Most of the misses are against the imp, tiny and high dex, and V doesn't have a great attack bonus to start with, because no dex bonus. Below average rolls could also explain this scene mechanically without any penalty. It's not even stated that V misses due the state they are in.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html

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    Last edited by Kornaki; 2021-01-03 at 01:16 AM.

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