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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html

    All that trance deprivation may have ruined your aim..

    Panel 3
    Panel 2.

    Also, the dragon is not an avatar of truth. She may believe what she says, but it is not absolute fact.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-01-03 at 02:18 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html

    All that trance deprivation may have ruined your aim..

    Panel 3
    Nice catch. (I was staring blind at reactions after a miss... Also it's a "may", still not conclusive conclusive…)

    It does clash with Miko's statement, but it is trance related and not sleep related so we can sweep it under the rug. Still hard how to interpret Miko's "joke" statement about sleeping with the only sleep related rule (sleeping in armor causes fatigue) we are trying to solve here.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Whereas Vaarsuvius says that trancing is not necessary and inefficient, and she's an elf, and generally well understands the rules that relate to her own practice, so I'd believe her over than the dragon about trancing.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Blowing an attack roll can be either missing or bouncing off their armor, so maybe it's just something on those lines?
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Whereas Vaarsuvius says that trancing is not necessary and inefficient, and she's an elf, and generally well understands the rules that relate to her own practice, so I'd believe her over than the dragon about trancing.
    Vaarsuvius was rationalizing to avoid having to dream or think about their failure in Azure City again. The whole point of the plotline is that they make a string of bad decisions, I don't know why you would trust them to be right here.

    They also probably didn't care if they had a penalty to attack, since they weren't planning on shooting anything anyway.

    Edit to add: I think it's also worth pointing out the context of miko's comment. She says there aren't rules for sleeping, so they should sleep in a ditch. At no point did anyone propose they skip sleeping entirely. If sleeping has no affect Roy also wouldn't have been so upset at the start about having to stay up all night to stand guard.
    Last edited by Kornaki; 2021-01-03 at 09:16 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    There really aren't rules that impose attack penalties after not sleeping, though, at least not to my knowledge. And it's entirely possible for everything that happened to occur with no penalties whatsoever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Blowing an attack roll can be either missing or bouncing off their armor, so maybe it's just something on those lines?
    Dimensional Anchor is an attack vs. touch AC, which for an Ancient Dragon is abysmally low (due to size penalties and no Dex). They make up for it in combat with natural armour (which touch AC ignores) , but an ABD can't really dodge spells like an Imp can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    Nice catch. (I was staring blind at reactions after a miss... Also it's a "may", still not conclusive conclusive…)

    It does clash with Miko's statement, but it is trance related and not sleep related so we can sweep it under the rug. Still hard how to interpret Miko's "joke" statement about sleeping with the only sleep related rule (sleeping in armor causes fatigue) we are trying to solve here.
    So, RAW, it makes more sense for a Fighter to stay awake all night in full-plate than to sleep in it?
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2021-01-03 at 11:11 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Dimensional Anchor is an attack vs. touch AC, which for an Ancient Dragon is abysmally low (due to size penalties and no Dex). They make up for it in combat with natural armour (which touch AC ignores) , but an ABD can't really dodge spells like an Imp can.
    It's called a nat 1.

    So, RAW, it makes more sense for a Fighter to stay awake all night in full-plate than to sleep in it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I agree there are no rules about sleeping, but the comic also makes it clear that the characters have to sleep, or they suffer.

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0224.html

    What rule caused Elan to pass out there? None, but it still happened.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    What rule caused Elan to pass out there? None, but it still happened.
    Again, that's because of the rule that you can't travel for more than eight hours per day without ill effects. Miko is dictating a higher tempo: she specifically says “We could get 6 more hours of forced march in before dusk” in the third panel. Miko can just tough it out with her high constitution or cast Lesser Restoration on herself to keep the forced march up indefinitely, but Elan can't. Heck, Miko works as a horseback messenger, she might be optimized for traveling a large number of hours per day.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2021-01-03 at 06:15 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    That's not what the rule says. You can only walk eight hours a day, but Elan is not walking.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Kornaki: yeah, you may be right. And also mentions that a cart or wagon can't travel for more than eight hours a day, though it only explains the penalties for walking or riding for longer than eight hours. Perhaps the horses pulling those wagons would get exhausted and die, rather than Elan passing out. I assume the Order doesn't have access to changed horses here. It's possible that before this strip, off-panel, the Order has been changing which two of them are riding, and Elan, due to his previous riding experience, volunteered to keep riding, but with six of them there and only two having to ride, the horses would have had to become exhausted before the characters.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I know it's a few days late, but that FAQ quote on the last page is quite possibly the dumbest FAQ I've ever read; It's not the weight of the armor that matters for the proficiency (or at least it shouldn't) but rather the type of armor. Otherwise if it really were weight than Banded Mail would fall under Medium Armor proficiency for being lighter than Chainmail. Breastplate and Full Plate fit very differently on the body and have different movement restrictions; a light set of Full Plate doesn't change the way it fits.

    But then again, it is 3.5 that we're discussing and they're even more vague than 5e half the time. I mean come on "purposes of movement and other limitations"? It's terrible writing to leave it so open-ended. They're the game designers, they should tell us what those limitations are.

    Certain FAQs really only work to make the game dumber (as another example, see the mounted Skirmish bs).

    On a side note, there are rules about sleeping, since spells that force the condition (and immunity to such effects) exist. Plus, I'm fairly certain that page was more about how far Miko's butt-stick reaches rather than any declaration that humans don't actually need to sleep in their world.

    P.S. On a side note, the "Sleeping in Armor" line on the SRD doesn't actually mention how long a character must have been asleep to become fatigued. So spells like Sleep can actually force the martial to be Fatigued the next day. I'm sure there's some way to weaponize that (as a GM). This would penalize a non-Endurance Barbarian pretty heavily, I should think.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    I know it's a few days late, but that FAQ quote on the last page is quite possibly the dumbest FAQ I've ever read; It's not the weight of the armor that matters for the proficiency (or at least it shouldn't) but rather the type of armor. Otherwise if it really were weight than Banded Mail would fall under Medium Armor proficiency for being lighter than Chainmail. Breastplate and Full Plate fit very differently on the body and have different movement restrictions; a light set of Full Plate doesn't change the way it fits.

    But then again, it is 3.5 that we're discussing and they're even more vague than 5e half the time. I mean come on "purposes of movement and other limitations"? It's terrible writing to leave it so open-ended. They're the game designers, they should tell us what those limitations are.

    Certain FAQs really only work to make the game dumber (as another example, see the mounted Skirmish bs).

    On a side note, there are rules about sleeping, since spells that force the condition (and immunity to such effects) exist. Plus, I'm fairly certain that page was more about how far Miko's butt-stick reaches rather than any declaration that humans don't actually need to sleep in their world.

    P.S. On a side note, the "Sleeping in Armor" line on the SRD doesn't actually mention how long a character must have been asleep to become fatigued. So spells like Sleep can actually force the martial to be Fatigued the next day. I'm sure there's some way to weaponize that (as a GM). This would penalize a non-Endurance Barbarian pretty heavily, I should think.
    I’m pretty sure you’d get the Spell Compendium thrown at you if you tried to do that, but it sounds RAW.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Well, 1223 pretty much confirms a lot of our speculation about the nature of the tunnel-entrance trap. So I guess score one for us, we are at least as rules-savvy as the order themselves.

    I'm glad that those traps weren't necessarily set up by anyone who we have a statblock for, thereby sparing us 10 pages of arguing about how you would actually go about setting up such a thing. Headcanon: epic magic, end of discussion.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Well, 1223 pretty much confirms a lot of our speculation about the nature of the tunnel-entrance trap. So I guess score one for us, we are at least as rules-savvy as the order themselves.

    I'm glad that those traps weren't necessarily set up by anyone who we have a statblock for, thereby sparing us 10 pages of arguing about how you would actually go about setting up such a thing. Headcanon: epic magic, end of discussion.
    I very much doubt Serini took 17+ levels of Wizard.

    Of course, my current headcanon is that she asked the party casters to help. Even if she didn't go behind Soon's back to do that, it mostly seems the conflict was between Soon and the arcane casters, not with Serini.
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Yah, these traps definitely seem like something an epic illusionist and epic wizard could cook up between them...heck, maybe Lirian provided the monsters too.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I've been lurking here for a bit and decided to pop in and say hello. I'm an old school AD&Der from way back when and am absolutely loving OotS.

    Did you all notice Blackwing in the panel where Roy peaks back through the teleport trap? This 'trap' is messing with my logic.
    This is a very custom trap - tripped vs non-tripped viewing/teleportation with directional viewing. Would Roy's 'peak back' be considered Roy's viewing angle? As in 'trap successfully bypassed'?
    Last edited by alceryes; 2021-01-25 at 10:53 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by alceryes View Post
    I've been lurking here for a bit and decided to pop in and say hello. I'm an old school AD&Der from way back when and am absolutely loving OotS.

    Did you all notice Blackwing in the panel where Roy peaks back through the teleport trap? This 'trap' is messing with my logic.
    This is a very custom trap - tripped vs non-tripped viewing/teleportation with directional viewing. Would Roy's 'peak back' be considered Roy's viewing angle? As in 'trap successfully bypassed'?
    Spoiler: Old speculation
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    I think the trap part is just the teleportation, like a teleportation circle spell. The viewing part is a scrying spell cast upon to trap* and not actually part of the trap itself. Bypassing the trap bypasses the teleportation, but doesn't mess with the scrying showing the image.
    *Sidenote: The scry spell isn't litterally on the trap. Normally a scrying spell shows an image on water, or a mirror (or a TV in the OotSverse), but this one seems to be projecting on the air instead. The same air people pass to active the trap.

    Edit: I just woke up and realized that the scrying and teleported are both disrupted by Haley, see the second to last panel in #1220. "Huh, did the floor change color?" So that speculation is just straight up wrong.
    I do feel the one-way mirror explanation is probably the best way to explain the situation in the comic, I hope that alone helps with getting a picture.

    Not all directions have this scrying spell showing an image. Only the Outside and the "Fake" Tunnel have this spell to prevent people from noticing they are teleported. The Order is currently at the other side of these scrying and basically they are just watching unobstructed. It's like those mirrors that are reflective at one side, but glass at the other side.
    Last edited by Yanisa; 2021-01-26 at 12:17 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Yeah, it is indeed an 'interesting' type of trap as the viewing and teleporting would have to be tied together, at least for RAW.

    I suppose when you are the character, the player, the DM, AND dealing with (supposedly) epic-level casters, RAW become a little pliable. Either that or we just haven't figured it out yet.
    Last edited by alceryes; 2021-01-26 at 09:14 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Wasn't there a spell (likely 2E) in Dragon that does what we see in #1222 et al? I remember one that created a portal between two places on the same plane.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Wasn't there a spell (likely 2E) in Dragon that does what we see in #1222 et al? I remember one that created a portal between two places on the same plane.
    Laurin used Wormhole which originates from 2e Dark Sun. This is probably a Teleportation Circle-esque spell combined with some kind of scrying spell.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    There's something familiar about the cloak and hand of our mysterious paladin kidnapper. I swear I've seen it in a past comic but I haven't the time to go through 1000+ strips. She obviously wants them alive too.

    Anyone else feel the same?

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by alceryes View Post
    There's something familiar about the cloak and hand of our mysterious paladin kidnapper. I swear I've seen it in a past comic but I haven't the time to go through 1000+ strips. She obviously wants them alive too.

    Anyone else feel the same?
    There's a ton of speculation about this over in the thread for this comic, which is probably where this belongs unless there's a stats question attached. Not that I think we're _so_ precious about it, but it's definitely been discussed a lot.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Laurin used Wormhole which originates from 2e Dark Sun. This is probably a Teleportation Circle-esque spell combined with some kind of scrying spell.
    Actually that's kind of exactly what we're seeing with the trap. When Laurin used Wormhole you saw the other side of the hole through it, so isn't the door trap just a permanent, neatly fitted Wormhole?

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I think it makes enough sense for him to not have Endurance listed, but do we know that he wasn't exhausted after sleeping in heavy armor?
    No one seems to have replied to this. Does anyone have a take on this--do we know for sure that Roy hasn't been fatigued on occasions in which he has slept in his armor?

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Time to blow dust off the Order of the Scribble section

    While it's not explicitly who we think it is just yet, I think to start with we can peg her as old (minimum age 20, add 66/67 years) and all the stat adjustments this implies.
    Last edited by RMS Oceanic; 2021-02-19 at 08:31 AM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Question. Wouldn't True Seeing allow Redcloak to see the teleport trap barrier?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    Question. Wouldn't True Seeing allow Redcloak to see the teleport trap barrier?
    True Seeing just pierces through Illusion and other Magical concealment. The barrier wasn't concealed, just really hard to see.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Halflings live about twice as long as humans... do we know precisely how long ago the first Snarl fiasco was?
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