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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Hello all. I would like to ask if there is a way in 4th edition to cast a Ritual in just a single turn or if you use any homebrew in order to allow that.

    Personally, I had created a special rule that allowed you (if you wanted) to double all the numbers of the ritual (casting time, cost, DCs etc.) and to have your ritual prepared and "stored" instead of using it right away. Then, at the course of a week, you could "release" the ritual you have "stored" and have it take effect instantly with a standard action (even in the middle of a combat) and the ritual is then wasted but you can "store" it again, if you wish to do so, via the same way you did before. Of course, you can cast the ritual the old traditional way if you wish.

    That way you could cast some "spells" like the other editions of D&D and create similar effects and have action sequences during combat where a big "boom" happens where a passage to a wall appears out of nowhere or the party instantly teleports away the very last moment before the dungeon collapses on their heads. I love the way it helps roleplaying so much, in addition to creating some interesting combat encounters (though caution is needed because it may ruin some other combat encounters where the party should not be able to escape by any means other than fighting).

    Discuss...
    Post if you wish to ask about Ruins & Raiders. I do not answer to PMs anymore.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    I had thought about something similar, but I haven't had a chance to test it yet.

    Under my scheme, you can prepare rituals whose total level is up to your level (or maybe level x2). Preparing a ritual takes as long as casting it in the first place. You can cast a prepared ritual in half the normal amount of time (just like casting from a scroll). Once cast, the ritual is expended and must be prepared again. You may prepare multiple copies of the same ritual. Some rituals have the [Cantrip] flag. These rituals can be stopped right before the moment of their completion allowing them to be finished in a single round.

    Determining which rituals are cantrips is an exercise for the reader. This allows you to keep longer cast times on certain rituals (like magic circle, raise dead, and forbiddence), but allow others, like hold portal and knock, to be cast quickly.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    There are a number of rituals from Dragon 405 that either are cast as a standard action, or allow you to cast them from a scroll as a standard action.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    You can cast a prepared ritual in half the normal amount of time (just like casting from a scroll).
    Halving the casting time is not going to accomplish anything.

    Because if a ritual is "impractically long" to cast (which, really, is most of them), then half of "impractically long" is still impractically long.

    Given the many other restrictions and gold cost on rituals, casting them as a standard action is really not problematic (with one or two exceptions like resurrection).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by ARTHAN View Post
    Hello all. I would like to ask if there is a way in 4th edition to cast a Ritual in just a single turn or if you use any homebrew in order to allow that.

    Personally, I had created a special rule that allowed you (if you wanted) to double all the numbers of the ritual (casting time, cost, DCs etc.) and to have your ritual prepared and "stored" instead of using it right away. Then, at the course of a week, you could "release" the ritual you have "stored" and have it take effect instantly with a standard action (even in the middle of a combat) and the ritual is then wasted but you can "store" it again, if you wish to do so, via the same way you did before. Of course, you can cast the ritual the old traditional way if you wish.

    That way you could cast some "spells" like the other editions of D&D and create similar effects and have action sequences during combat where a big "boom" happens where a passage to a wall appears out of nowhere or the party instantly teleports away the very last moment before the dungeon collapses on their heads. I love the way it helps roleplaying so much, in addition to creating some interesting combat encounters (though caution is needed because it may ruin some other combat encounters where the party should not be able to escape by any means other than fighting).

    Discuss...
    This kind of turns 4E back into an older edition. "The best solution is to cast a spell that instantly fixes the problem" is the exact problem 4E was designed to fix. As 3.5 players can attest, no side cost will ever outweigh a good spell as a solution. Ergo either the ritual has to be weak enough to not fix things, in which case the additional cost is pointless, or its too strong to be cast with any cost attached.

    Specific rituals that this would break the game with:
    Brew Potion
    Enchant Magic Item
    Weather Control
    Guards and Wards
    Snowstorm Summons
    Summon Gargoyle
    Wyvern Watch
    Secure Shelter
    Create Scarecrow
    Hallowed Temple
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2020-12-06 at 03:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    This kind of turns 4E back into an older edition. "The best solution is to cast a spell that instantly fixes the problem" is the exact problem 4E was designed to fix.
    Funnily, 4E has the opposite problem. The best solution is to refluff a skill that instantly fixes the problem (and is a standard action, costs no money, and allows infinite retries). That's precisely why threads that "rituals are too weak, how do we improve them?" are one of the most common topics on 4E forums.

    Specific rituals that this would break the game with:
    Only ten? Wow, that makes it a very good fix. Pretty much all of those appear to be protecting the party while it camps (which doesn't strike me as a big deal in most campaigns) or crafting (which is a sensible exception to one-standard-action, anyway).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    The "protect you as you camp" ones become "summon a creature that ignores the usual breaks on action economy for a battle" if they are a standard action, or in two cases "make an indestructible cage to trap an enemy in." Being able to cast at-will Forcecage was too good for 3.5, it is way too powerful for 4E.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The "protect you as you camp" ones become "summon a creature that ignores the usual breaks on action economy for a battle" if they are a standard action, or in two cases "make an indestructible cage to trap an enemy in."
    Right; I mentioned crafting rituals earlier, but really the entire category of "creation" rituals should be exempt to the rule. That seems to solve your issues.

    (Guards and Wards only works in your home and costs five surges; I don't think that's an issue. Wyvern Watch attacks only once, so that doesn't strike me as a big deal either).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Right; I mentioned crafting rituals earlier, but really the entire category of "creation" rituals should be exempt to the rule. That seems to solve your issues.

    (Guards and Wards only works in your home and costs five surges; I don't think that's an issue. Wyvern Watch attacks only once, so that doesn't strike me as a big deal either).
    Fair enough. If you strike creation it should be fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Halving the casting time is not going to accomplish anything.

    Because if a ritual is "impractically long" to cast (which, really, is most of them), then half of "impractically long" is still impractically long.

    Given the many other restrictions and gold cost on rituals, casting them as a standard action is really not problematic (with one or two exceptions like resurrection).
    Some of the ultra-long casting times, like raise dead still have incredibly long cast times, but 4 hours instead of 8 at least gives you a little time in the day to do something. A shifting time scales of 8 hour > 1 hour > 10 min > 1 min or the like would probably be a reasonable time adjustment. There are definitely a number of rituals that I wouldn't want to have 1 round cast times.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaeda View Post
    Some of the ultra-long casting times, like raise dead still have incredibly long cast times, but 4 hours instead of 8 at least gives you a little time in the day to do something. A shifting time scales of 8 hour > 1 hour > 10 min > 1 min or the like would probably be a reasonable time adjustment. There are definitely a number of rituals that I wouldn't want to have 1 round cast times.
    I was thinking having only ONE ritual prepared each time (preparing a new ritual would overwrite the previous one if that ritual wasn't used). What do you think about it? Would that solve the issue?
    Post if you wish to ask about Ruins & Raiders. I do not answer to PMs anymore.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Aug 2017

    Default Re: Casting Rituals in a single turn...

    Having an overpowered ability that you can only do once is still having an overpowered ability. This may also bias preparing their high-level (and probably more powerful) rituals since they only get one either way.

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