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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Recommend me a System.

    So I am browsing around for systems to best represent a setting I am homebrewing. I have come up a blank for those that can easily work towards what I need. It is a post-apocalyptic setting mostly based around this one large city. Before the end the world was gearing up into a Shaddowrun-esque shape. The apocalypse itself was not not nuclear which limits the uses of systems where that is important. Of course nothing will be perfect and I expect to homebrew a system or two.

    What I would consider good elements to account for are:
    • Playable nonhumans (i.e. D&D races) to account for mutants and assorted playable 'weird things'. If at all possible means to allow a character of a stronger/monstrous 'race' to be reasonably balanced compared to a basic human equivalent character.
    • Some form modular vehicle system and the means to use them in combat.
    • A combination of high-tech and the supernatural elements, or failing that supernatural that can be refluffed easy. Ideally the Characters should not be overly dependant on them.
    • By personal preference something decently crunchy over rules-light.


    If nothing else I am considering I can make it work -more or less- in the following systems:

    Combine this with some pathfinder 1e mechanics for a distinct systems for mutant 'races' and the tech rules.

    Mutants and Masterminds 3e: I have always thought this would be interesting to try as a system separate from it's base premise. Has vehicle rules, I think, and high customisability but I've never been able to wrap my head around part of combat.

    Shadowrun: Whatever the edition this has a setting with a similar relation of supernatural-to-tech. Just make it post-apocalyptic and we are close. I hear character customisation may be good for pre-stated mutant 'races' too but have not researched right yet.

    New world of darkness: the modern with supernatural combo works, just tinker with the minor supernatural stuff and turn it into high-tech and then use other supernatural elements here and there a needed. The power level may be just about right and the plug-n-play design philosophy should help customising to the setting.

    Any efforts to put be on a right track are appreciated.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    • Playable nonhumans (i.e. D&D races) to account for mutants and assorted playable 'weird things'. If at all possible means to allow a character of a stronger/monstrous 'race' to be reasonably balanced compared to a basic human equivalent character.
    • Some form modular vehicle system and the means to use them in combat.
    • A combination of high-tech and the supernatural elements, or failing that supernatural that can be refluffed easy. Ideally the Characters should not be overly dependant on them.
    • By personal preference something decently crunchy over rules-light.
    Shadowrun is often panned for its matrix and rigging rules being convoluted messes that split players more surely than a sneaking rogue from the tin can paladin. If youíre not using those then a large degree of kludge is absent.

    The skills, attributes, positive and negative qualities framework is generally solid for most editions. Cyber/Bioware provides an okay framework for exotic powers and progression but expect to do a lot of work adapting it. SR assumes youíre either magic, augmented, or not a PC.

    I cannot speak for 1&2e Shadowrun as Iíve not so much as read the books.

    3e has all the crunch. Regrettably Iíve not gotten a chance to play it yet though I can see it being a little too much tedium in its functionality. Moving target numbers and dice that add-explode by default being mixed in with opposed rolls may be too much for your combats, or it might be a joy of probability spreads. Just be warned it can get slow on the resolution without automated rollers (Mainly when TNs start going above 6). Memory is fuzzy but I recall being outnumbered in 3e is Not Good generally, may be issues with larger combats.

    4e I have the most experience with. All dicepools are rolled against TN 5 and thereís no add-explodes. Modifiers are to dicepool sizes generally. Drones and vehicles have plenty of options not to mention the weaponry and gear selection. Combat has a few easily patched flaws and the initiative system isnít as heavily skewed to characters that have wired reflexes or similar.

    5e is 4e with fixed matrix rules while they broke everything else. As you donít care about the matrix I advise looking at other editions.

    6e... an attempt was made. Itís a garbage attempt at rules lite SR thatís not worth the paper itís printed on.


    Thereís a modest foundation for developing supernatural creatures and their powers. Since everything plays by the opposed dicepool rules itís not that hard to think up something and slap vaguely reasonable rules and rolls on it.


    One flaw you will encounter if augmentations (cyber n bio) arenít readily available or otherwise baked in to some part of progression options is that dedicated specialists will SLAUGHTER other characters in their areas of expertise if the latter only has a token investment. This mainly has to do with physical attribute boosting augments effectively raising the minimum scores for PC characters. I note this in the interest of letting people roll for more things and have a good chance at succeeding without spending their character points (karma) on grabbing a bunch of skills+attributes that cyberware would supply for a fraction of the cost.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    DrMartin's Avatar

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Other Dust is really good. Follow up game to Stars Without Numbers in a post apocalyptic earth setting. It has mutations and mutants and a solid section on post-apocalyptic kingdom building.

    It's compatible with Stars without number and that's where you'd get your psionics/supernatural stuff.

    Might be too rules light for you though - but still, a really good system.
    Hector Morris Ashburnum-Whit - Curse of the Crimson Throne - IC / OoC
    Bosek of Kuru - A Falling Star - IC / OoC
    Gifu Lavoi - Heritage of Kings - IC / OoC

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Shadowrun is often panned for its matrix and rigging rules being convoluted messes that split players more surely than a sneaking rogue from the tin can paladin. If youíre not using those then a large degree of kludge is absent.

    The skills, attributes, positive and negative qualities framework is generally solid for most editions. Cyber/Bioware provides an okay framework for exotic powers and progression but expect to do a lot of work adapting it. SR assumes youíre either magic, augmented, or not a PC.

    I cannot speak for 1&2e Shadowrun as Iíve not so much as read the books.

    3e has all the crunch. Regrettably Iíve not gotten a chance to play it yet though I can see it being a little too much tedium in its functionality. Moving target numbers and dice that add-explode by default being mixed in with opposed rolls may be too much for your combats, or it might be a joy of probability spreads. Just be warned it can get slow on the resolution without automated rollers (Mainly when TNs start going above 6). Memory is fuzzy but I recall being outnumbered in 3e is Not Good generally, may be issues with larger combats.

    4e I have the most experience with. All dicepools are rolled against TN 5 and thereís no add-explodes. Modifiers are to dicepool sizes generally. Drones and vehicles have plenty of options not to mention the weaponry and gear selection. Combat has a few easily patched flaws and the initiative system isnít as heavily skewed to characters that have wired reflexes or similar.

    5e is 4e with fixed matrix rules while they broke everything else. As you donít care about the matrix I advise looking at other editions.

    6e... an attempt was made. Itís a garbage attempt at rules lite SR thatís not worth the paper itís printed on.


    Thereís a modest foundation for developing supernatural creatures and their powers. Since everything plays by the opposed dicepool rules itís not that hard to think up something and slap vaguely reasonable rules and rolls on it.


    One flaw you will encounter if augmentations (cyber n bio) arenít readily available or otherwise baked in to some part of progression options is that dedicated specialists will SLAUGHTER other characters in their areas of expertise if the latter only has a token investment. This mainly has to do with physical attribute boosting augments effectively raising the minimum scores for PC characters. I note this in the interest of letting people roll for more things and have a good chance at succeeding without spending their character points (karma) on grabbing a bunch of skills+attributes that cyberware would supply for a fraction of the cost.
    Sounds like 3e or 4e are what I'm looking for. I'll keep the note on the need for ready augmentation access in mind and look for ways to either make it work easily or mitigate the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrMartin View Post
    Other Dust is really good. Follow up game to Stars Without Numbers in a post apocalyptic earth setting. It has mutations and mutants and a solid section on post-apocalyptic kingdom building.

    It's compatible with Stars without number and that's where you'd get your psionics/supernatural stuff.

    Might be too rules light for you though - but still, a really good system.
    Looks like OD with a little looting from SWN is a strong contender. Easily the lead runner for systems until I check out Shaddowrun properly.
    my homebrew signature:
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Numenera might work for you. I am not very familiar with it, so I don't know how well it does the vehicle stuff you want. I remember it as rather rules-light, so it shouldn't be a big problem to create it if it's missing.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    Sounds like 3e or 4e are what I'm looking for. I'll keep the note on the need for ready augmentation access in mind and look for ways to either make it work easily or mitigate the problem..
    To elaborate on the augmentation issues Iíll take an example from SR4e.

    Raising an attribute has a cost that is equal to the new rank x 5 in karma. Attributes can span up to 10(15) or so depending on metatype with the typical being 6(9) for its standard(augmented) maximums. At character creation when exchanging karma for currency the costs for boosting attributes via augs are trivial compared to buying them up normally. Iím talking 3-5 karma per point and itís often linear costs. The catch is you are limited on augmentation Ďweightí and thatís where pricier, Ďlighterí versions of augs come in down the road. Note that magic is mostly exclusive with augs.

    Getting to 5 BOD to have reasonable durability could cost you 70 for buying it 1->5. Or you could have some bone lacing for 10 karma on top the cost (25) of buying BOD up to 3. Augs are Ďbalancedí by price, essence consumption and availability. To replace/change them you need to account for most of all that in your new setup.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    Mutants and Masterminds 3e: I have always thought this would be interesting to try as a system separate from it's base premise. Has vehicle rules, I think, and high customisability but I've never been able to wrap my head around part of combat.
    I've used it for fantasy campaigns a few times, so it certainly works outside comic books. (I've also played a prolonged post-apocalyptic-superpower noir game that sounds pretty similar to what you're describing). What part of the combat is confusing, if I may ask?

    Otherwise, I'd suggest Savage Worlds, maybe? It's solidly middle-crunch and I've really only heard good things. From what I've read, it looks like it works well for characters with the odd supernatural ability here and there.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2020-12-11 at 12:45 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    To elaborate on the augmentation issues Iíll take an example from SR4e.

    Raising an attribute has a cost that is equal to the new rank x 5 in karma. Attributes can span up to 10(15) or so depending on metatype with the typical being 6(9) for its standard(augmented) maximums. At character creation when exchanging karma for currency the costs for boosting attributes via augs are trivial compared to buying them up normally. Iím talking 3-5 karma per point and itís often linear costs. The catch is you are limited on augmentation Ďweightí and thatís where pricier, Ďlighterí versions of augs come in down the road. Note that magic is mostly exclusive with augs.

    Getting to 5 BOD to have reasonable durability could cost you 70 for buying it 1->5. Or you could have some bone lacing for 10 karma on top the cost (25) of buying BOD up to 3. Augs are Ďbalancedí by price, essence consumption and availability. To replace/change them you need to account for most of all that in your new setup.
    As someone yet to read the rules (about to after posting here actually) do you think raising the cost of augmentations at character creation should balance things or would that unbalance things in a different direction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    What part of the combat is confusing, if I may ask?
    Well weirdly enough the main thing throwing me off was the SRD, I think. After reading an actual book(well, PDF) I can put the mechanics together more. Learning via the SRD I think make it difficult to piece things together in the site structure.
    my homebrew signature:
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    Well weirdly enough the main thing throwing me off was the SRD, I think. After reading an actual book(well, PDF) I can put the mechanics together more. Learning via the SRD I think make it difficult to piece things together in the site structure.
    Yeah, the book isn't laid out super well but the SRD is pretty unhelpful for anything but effects/modifiers/advantages and the like. I had a player in a past campaign attempt to do the same thing and he got really confused too. If it helps, here's my suggested reading order:

    Spoiler: Learning M&M
    Show

    Suggested Reading Order (in decreasing order of importance)
    1. Chapter One: The Basics-- Read at least the first eight pages, though all of it would be ideal. You can skim if youíre used to d20 systems, but take special note of the Ranks and Measures chart on page 11,
    2. Chapter Eight: Action and Adventure-- Skip ahead to Conflicts on page 188 and read from there up until Actions on 194. Again, you can skim if youíre used to d20 systems, but pay close attention to how damage works on page 189.
    3. Chapter Six: Powers-- Read the sections on Acquiring Powers, Effect Types, and How Powers Work. Donít worry about the table there. Flip ahead to Descriptors on 152 and read that

    That should cover the basic rules, and give a rough understanding of how the game worksófairly standard d20 stuff, with the usual quirky variants of common maneuvers and a wonky damage mechanic. Now for character creation

    4. Chapter Two: Secret Origins. Read the sections on Hero Design and Power Points. Especially read the section on Power Points.
    5. Flip back to Modifiers on page 135 and read that.
    6. Read the Alternate Effect modifier on page 136-138, along with the Under the Hood sidebar
    7. Chapter Seven: Gadgets and Gear. Read the big sections on Devices (157), Equipment (161), and the Under the Hood sidebar on 157

    At this point you should have covered all the vital stuff you need to know to build a character. If youíd like, the full-page write ups of The Rook and Princess on pages 50-53 are a useful example of the process in action.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

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    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    As someone yet to read the rules (about to after posting here actually) do you think raising the cost of augmentations at character creation should balance things or would that unbalance things in a different direction?
    Please don't, unless you want to play MagicRunner and nothing else. Augmentation with 'ware is what lets non-magic-users hang with adepts, mystic adepts, magicians, and technomancers.

    Just make the players aware that buying starting nuyen and using it to purchase gear and augmentations is superior to investing heavily in skills*, which are a ripoff at character creation. Once you enter actual play, the reverse is true: skills are cheap on earned karma, while players may not have the cash to get the gear/augmentations they want until they've done a few runs.

    * For magic users and technomancers, augmentations are generally bad since they lower your Magic or Resonance stat. There's a few exceptions, like taking a Logic boosting augment for a Logic-based tradition to gain a deep anti-Drain pool for overcasting. Magic users generally only want to get the big four magic skills (Sorcery, Counterspelling, Summoning, and Binding) plus any niches they need to fill or serve as redundancy. The latter will be those that synergize with their Drain stat (Charisma, Logic, or Intuition).
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2020-12-11 at 09:12 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    There are always generic systems, such as GUPRS and Open D6.
    "Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."

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    I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreadNecro5 View Post
    As someone yet to read the rules (about to after posting here actually) do you think raising the cost of augmentations at character creation should balance things or would that unbalance things in a different direction?
    As stated by others, augmentations are cheap because magic users canít take them. They are the menu of superpowers the non casters get. If running the augmentation system off currency (there is no WBL or similar concepts) itís a delicate balancing act that requires experience. The game expects you to hand out a lot more cash than karma generally, because Ďware gets expensive and thatís how the street sam and vehicle/drone users scale while mages progress almost exclusively on karma.

    ALSO. Thou shalt build characters with karma, for priority and build point invite min maxing. Seriously. You can build a character up from 1s in all attributes with no skills or anything else in the same manner youíd progress a 800 karma character
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    If you like the Shadowrun dice mechanic but want more functional simplicity, check out Free League's game MUTANT: YEAR ZERO. It uses the same dice pool mechanic as Shadowrun but is a lot easier to use in play. As a bonus, it has mutants already integrated into the system.
    If you want a little more "crunch" in your dice pool mechanic, check out their FORBIDDEN LANDS rpg. It uses a more advanced mechanic.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by olskool View Post
    If you like the Shadowrun dice mechanic but want more functional simplicity, check out Free League's game MUTANT: YEAR ZERO. It uses the same dice pool mechanic as Shadowrun but is a lot easier to use in play. As a bonus, it has mutants already integrated into the system.
    If you want a little more "crunch" in your dice pool mechanic, check out their FORBIDDEN LANDS rpg. It uses a more advanced mechanic.
    Which version of SR? Thereís a great deal of variation from edition to edition.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Which version of SR? Thereís a great deal of variation from edition to edition.
    I'd say Free League's MUTANT: YEAR ZERO is most like SR 5th edition because it uses pools of D6s and each 6 is a success. FORBIDDEN LANDS is an evolution of the Year Zero Engine and uses a variable number of dice (D6, D8, D10, and even D12) which provide an increased number of Successes based on the die used in a potentially "mixed pool" (ie you may be throwing D6s, D8s, and D10s together) to determine a task's success. The added complexity of FORBIDDEN LANDS would remind me of SR 3rd Edition's crunch level and might compare to SAVAGE LANDS variable dice mechanic.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by olskool View Post
    I'd say Free League's MUTANT: YEAR ZERO is most like SR 5th edition because it uses pools of D6s and each 6 is a success. FORBIDDEN LANDS is an evolution of the Year Zero Engine and uses a variable number of dice (D6, D8, D10, and even D12) which provide an increased number of Successes based on the die used in a potentially "mixed pool" (ie you may be throwing D6s, D8s, and D10s together) to determine a task's success. The added complexity of FORBIDDEN LANDS would remind me of SR 3rd Edition's crunch level and might compare to SAVAGE LANDS variable dice mechanic.
    So itís 4e because Iím not hearing a mention of limits, which are derived attributes that cap your allowed number of successes in a given roll. Sounds like a clean implementation and Iíll add my voice to suggesting itís worth a looksee.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    So itís 4e because Iím not hearing a mention of limits, which are derived attributes that cap your allowed number of successes in a given roll. Sounds like a clean implementation and Iíll add my voice to suggesting itís worth a looksee.
    I don't have any experience with FORBIDDEN LANDS but I do have experience with MUTANT: YEARS ZERO and the ALIENS RPGs. They build dice pools by using three different colored sets of D6s. The first set represents Characteristics such as STR, DEX, etc... The second set represents Skills, and the third set represents "equipment dice" representing any special equipment that's being used for the task. IF a Characteristic D6 is not a success, the PC can "push the roll" and reroll the D6. This causes STRESS (a type of damage in the Year Zero engine), however. IF a PC fails to roll a success on an "Equipment Die," they may "push that roll" too. However, this causes the equipment to "degrade," and it may end up breaking. Extra "Successes" can also generate STUNTS or other Special Effects like in Modiphius Games 2D20 Engine. It is a fairly straightforward dice pool system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Shadowrun is often panned for its matrix and rigging rules being convoluted messes that split players more surely than a sneaking rogue from the tin can paladin. If youíre not using those then a large degree of kludge is absent.

    The skills, attributes, positive and negative qualities framework is generally solid for most editions. Cyber/Bioware provides an okay framework for exotic powers and progression but expect to do a lot of work adapting it. SR assumes youíre either magic, augmented, or not a PC.

    I cannot speak for 1&2e Shadowrun as Iíve not so much as read the books.

    3e has all the crunch. Regrettably Iíve not gotten a chance to play it yet though I can see it being a little too much tedium in its functionality. Moving target numbers and dice that add-explode by default being mixed in with opposed rolls may be too much for your combats, or it might be a joy of probability spreads. Just be warned it can get slow on the resolution without automated rollers (Mainly when TNs start going above 6). Memory is fuzzy but I recall being outnumbered in 3e is Not Good generally, may be issues with larger combats.

    4e I have the most experience with. All dicepools are rolled against TN 5 and thereís no add-explodes. Modifiers are to dicepool sizes generally. Drones and vehicles have plenty of options not to mention the weaponry and gear selection. Combat has a few easily patched flaws and the initiative system isnít as heavily skewed to characters that have wired reflexes or similar.

    5e is 4e with fixed matrix rules while they broke everything else. As you donít care about the matrix I advise looking at other editions.

    6e... an attempt was made. Itís a garbage attempt at rules lite SR thatís not worth the paper itís printed on.


    Thereís a modest foundation for developing supernatural creatures and their powers. Since everything plays by the opposed dicepool rules itís not that hard to think up something and slap vaguely reasonable rules and rolls on it.


    One flaw you will encounter if augmentations (cyber n bio) arenít readily available or otherwise baked in to some part of progression options is that dedicated specialists will SLAUGHTER other characters in their areas of expertise if the latter only has a token investment. This mainly has to do with physical attribute boosting augments effectively raising the minimum scores for PC characters. I note this in the interest of letting people roll for more things and have a good chance at succeeding without spending their character points (karma) on grabbing a bunch of skills+attributes that cyberware would supply for a fraction of the cost.
    5e doesn't fix the matrix rules. It makes them worse. Significantly worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarZero View Post
    I like the "hobo" in there.
    "Hey, you just got 10000gp! You going to buy a fully staffed mansion or something?"
    "Nah, I'll upgrade my +2 sword to a +3 sword and sleep in my cloak."

    Non est salvatori salvator, neque defensori dominus, nec pater nec mater, nihil supernum.

    Torumekian knight Avatar by Licoot.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    5e doesn't fix the matrix rules. It makes them worse. Significantly worse.
    Might have failed a memory roll overall.

    Spoiler: matrix side discussion
    Show
    From what I recall they bungled the whole Overwatch score thing but managed some streamlining of matrix v matrix resolution. Script kiddies and the mess of Agents were gone/diminished. Deckers bricking gear was a failing of the gear system (wireless bonuses on a stealth suit!) and deck prices were in a similar place of suck as gear for sams. Half of everything was broken, but thatís because it interfaced with a system where half of everything was broken. Iíd have to reread it but thatís just not worth anyoneís time.


    So yeah, itís good OP doesnít want matrix stuff.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Might have failed a memory roll overall.

    Spoiler: matrix side discussion
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    From what I recall they bungled the whole Overwatch score thing but managed some streamlining of matrix v matrix resolution. Script kiddies and the mess of Agents were gone/diminished. Deckers bricking gear was a failing of the gear system (wireless bonuses on a stealth suit!) and deck prices were in a similar place of suck as gear for sams. Half of everything was broken, but thatís because it interfaced with a system where half of everything was broken. Iíd have to reread it but thatís just not worth anyoneís time.


    So yeah, itís good OP doesnít want matrix stuff.
    Even back during 1e, we never used the matrix rules. Having the rest of the players leave in the middle of a game to go watch a movie or two while the Decker got their own private session didn't sit well with anybody.
    "Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."

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    I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Might have failed a memory roll overall.

    Spoiler: matrix side discussion
    Show
    From what I recall they bungled the whole Overwatch score thing but managed some streamlining of matrix v matrix resolution. Script kiddies and the mess of Agents were gone/diminished. Deckers bricking gear was a failing of the gear system (wireless bonuses on a stealth suit!) and deck prices were in a similar place of suck as gear for sams. Half of everything was broken, but thatís because it interfaced with a system where half of everything was broken. Iíd have to reread it but thatís just not worth anyoneís time.


    So yeah, itís good OP doesnít want matrix stuff.
    4e was in a weird place where the whole 'Separate dungeon cyberspace fights' were *there* as a bit of a vestigial feature... But really all you needed to do was make a single skill check, or extended skill check, to gain admin rights on a given node. Then if someone showed up to cyberspace fight you, you could just boot/ban them. Actual cyberspace fights were generally only for assassinations. And even there it didn't work, because it only did lethal damage in Hotsim, which nobody used.

    Basically it had all these rules because they were part of the setting, but all that really mattered was your ability to get admin rights and lock everyone else out of the node and do whatever you want with it.

    5e got rid of that and went back to basic actions requiring cyberspace fights.
    Last edited by druid91; 2020-12-19 at 03:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    4e was in a weird place where the whole 'Separate dungeon cyberspace fights' were *there* as a bit of a vestigial feature... But really all you needed to do was make a single skill check, or extended skill check, to gain admin rights on a given node. Then if someone showed up to cyberspace fight you, you could just boot/ban them. Actual cyberspace fights were generally only for assassinations. And even there it didn't work, because it only did lethal damage in Hotsim, which nobody used.

    Basically it had all these rules because they were part of the setting, but all that really mattered was your ability to get admin rights and lock everyone else out of the node and do whatever you want with it.

    5e got rid of that and went back to basic actions requiring cyberspace fights.
    Admittedly, I liked 4e better nonetheless. To be fair, gaining admin rights and/or getting another computer to run your code is pretty much the "I win" stage in hacking IRL. 4e was trying to do a slightly better emulation of actual networking than the Tron-verse every other edition uses. Faux-realism isn't a positive in and of itself, but it fit with 4e's design goals for overhauling the matrix.

    Hacking could be a lot faster, even if there was a gentleman's agreement not to just grab admin rights and go to town, which I also found to be a benefit. Cybercombat was vestigial even if you had to hack using a regular user or security account, since the goal was usually to get away with your cybercrime without being detected. A lot of systems could be messed up or altered without using any of the actual cybercombat skills.

    I homebrewed grey IC versions of Attack, Corrupt, and Nuke that permanently destroy personas, software, and hardware respectively to try and limit the "oh, I lost cybercombat? Time to reboot" issue. Made cybercombat more threatening to the PCs, as well as offering the PCs ways to "go loud" on the Matrix level that didn't depend on the target being in hotsim.

    I'm a bit perplexed by you saying no-one used hotsim at all. While AR hacking with initiative boosters was very effective much of the time, especially during the climax of a run in meatspace, VR was situationally preferable for much shorter extended check intervals and there were way fewer methods to get additional VR initiative passes (hotsim being the most prominent one). If you have a bad day and hit some nasty ICE while probing, for example, having the extra initiative passes might be critical to getting out of the situation. Sure /BLACK HAMMER might kill you, but being down on initiative and getting traced or the equivalent could sink a run. Sure you could avoid that entirely while AR hacking with wired reflexes or an improve reflexes spell, but then your legwork is going to take 24 times longer.
    Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2020-12-19 at 05:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Gamma World if you are a casual, TORG if you are a grognard.
    May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...

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    I'm going to suggest M&M 3E. It works well for an action movie oriented vibe. You can achieve Die Hard or Predator feels reasonably well. As a bonus you can be a functional character using only skills, attributes, and Advantages. See Batman in basically any version of the game. Also, the M&M forum already had hundreds (thousands?) of character pre built and ready to go for you. Need a villain that is basically Deathstroke? Go visit the formum, you'll find at least 10 versions of Deathstroke at varying power levels to pick from.

    I've built Godzilla, Jarod from The Pretender, the crew of the Star Trek: The Next Generation (along with the Enterprise-D), and converted a bunch of D&D creatures using M&M.

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    I do not recommend Mutants and Masterminds (MnM) 3e unless you or most of your players have used at least one version of MnM in the past. Nothing is built for you and it isn't beginner friendly. MnM 2e might be a better fit if you and your players know D&D 3.5 and the majority of the powers found in the core book are already built; it isn't until Ultimate Power that you see the bare bones that 3e thrusts at beginners from the get go.

    modular vehicle system is where it falls flat. Truly it can be done but not by RAW without treating them as a super in their own right. Though i am uncertain if by modular you mean Voltron; otherwise you are good (you can technically slap any power or ability on). Combat is a little on the light side... it is all one system; whether person or car or spaceship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FabulousFizban View Post
    Gamma World if you are a casual, TORG if you are a grognard.
    +1 on TORG,

    its Bogly.

    Mekton Zeta if you are looking for a crunchy vehicles/aliens game with at least some supernatural rules templated in.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcore View Post
    I do not recommend Mutants and Masterminds (MnM) 3e unless you or most of your players have used at least one version of MnM in the past. Nothing is built for you and it isn't beginner friendly. MnM 2e might be a better fit if you and your players know D&D 3.5 and the majority of the powers found in the core book are already built; it isn't until Ultimate Power that you see the bare bones that 3e thrusts at beginners from the get go.
    I don't know, the game isn't especially difficult to learn, but it helps for character creation for one person to be very familiar with the rules in general. The example character creation (two of them actually: Rook and Princess) do a good job of showing a primarily skills based character and a super-powered heavy weight are built.

    As for nothing being pre-built that isn't strictly true. The core book has a I think at least 10 hero archetypes. They aren't as efficiently built as you can if you know what you're doing, but they work. And there's 10 more specific heroes you can get for free from Green Ronin's website.

    modular vehicle system is where it falls flat. Truly it can be done but not by RAW without treating them as a super in their own right. Though i am uncertain if by modular you mean Voltron; otherwise you are good (you can technically slap any power or ability on). Combat is a little on the light side... it is all one system; whether person or car or spaceship.
    Vechile combat is a bit wonky. There's no real discussion about how it works directly. However, if you read the combat rules it works. Vehicles provide cover, none, half, or full. So basically the character controls the vehicle and uses its speed instead of their own. Attacks against the character are handled like cover, and can damage the vehicle using its stats as appropriate.
    Last edited by Beleriphon; 2021-01-12 at 11:27 AM.

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    Player character creation in M&M is the only bit that's really complicated. Gameplay is fairly standard d20 with a weird way of handling health, and building NPCs is actually easy--because the game explicitly says "don't counter power points for NPCs," you can get away with writing something like "Rock Powers 10" and just grabbing the rules for Create, Affliction, and so on as needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    As for nothing being pre-built that isn't strictly true. The core book has a I think at least 10 hero archetypes. They aren't as efficiently built as you can if you know what you're doing, but they work. And there's 10 more specific heroes you can get for free from Green Ronin's website.
    To say nothing of the two Heroes and Villains books with 600 pages of DC comics characters already built for you, and the Gamemaster's Kit with modular (and optionally randomized) rules for creating starting characters along 20 different archetypes.

    STaRS (and STaRS Lite)
    A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system, by me. Now officially released!

    Grod's Guide to Greatness
    A big book of player options for 5e, by me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

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    Default Re: Recommend me a System.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Player character creation in M&M is the only bit that's really complicated. Gameplay is fairly standard d20 with a weird way of handling health, and building NPCs is actually easy--because the game explicitly says "don't counter power points for NPCs," you can get away with writing something like "Rock Powers 10" and just grabbing the rules for Create, Affliction, and so on as needed.
    As an Atomic Think Tank OG character builder I tend to forget this. But yes, NPC are explicitly meant to be pretty much a short list of relevant numbers.

    To say nothing of the two Heroes and Villains books with 600 pages of DC comics characters already built for you, and the Gamemaster's Kit with modular (and optionally randomized) rules for creating starting characters along 20 different archetypes.
    Also true. The DC Universe book has another 150 or so characters that the Heroes and Villains don't cover. Like Superman is a perfectly balanced PL16 character, but Batman at PL12 has something like twice as many points worth of abilities, skills, equipment, and advantages.

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