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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Must Druids Love Nature

    With the new rules making it so that players playing clerics do not have to worship a deity to get their power; I have a correlative question; do druids have to worship nature.

    As wizards get their power from ----

    Such that nature is the SOURCE of the power that druids tap into.

    For example - electricity. I do not have to worship physics or chemistry or General Electric to get my power; I just plug in my equipment and it works.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Druids have to revere nature. They don't strictly have to worship it, however.
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    You can be a cleric of a cause, but you can't get access to a deity's power without worshipping that deity. A druid is basically a cleric of nature itself, only with a couple different class features. You can't be a druid of a 'cause', because you are already a druid of nature. No changing it.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by AnnShadow View Post
    With the new rules making it so that players playing clerics do not have to worship a deity to get their power; I have a correlative question; do druids have to worship nature.

    As wizards get their power from ----

    Such that nature is the SOURCE of the power that druids tap into.

    For example - electricity. I do not have to worship physics or chemistry or General Electric to get my power; I just plug in my equipment and it works.
    Wizards get their power from understanding the world and manipulating it. Druids get their power from their faith. Bear in mind that "nature" can mean a whole lot of things, and can be interpreted as most anything with enough mental juryrigging. Then add in that "faith" has always been a neublious concept to begin with and can be expressed in all kinds of ways. You don't just need to be a tree hugger hippy, try varying your medium say, desert, mountains, tundra, the urban environment. Or saying that the supernatural is by nessecity something that should be studied and incorporated into a wider understanding of what's nature, and go worship aberations or undead. Then have a look at how wide a scope real world expressions of faith can be, almost any action, agenda or movement has some level of "faith" assosciated with it, even if it's only to oppose the standerd conception of what a devote person is doing.

    Short answer, yes to be a druid you have to have a strong personal interest in "nature". Which is about as wide a definition of a characters motivation as can be acted on. Try playing a humans-are-part-of nature, and thus all cities are just big termite mounds and are therefore not just ok but what needs to be made big and more "humanized"
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Just because a druid worships nature, doesn't mean they love all nature equally. A desert druid might make it his/her goal to eliminate all forests, because he/she believes that a desert is the perfect environment. He/she could see forests as unnatural or unorderly, unlike the simple complexity of miles of barren wasteland.

    He/she could embrace the elements, especially the harsh and uncaring destructiveness of fire, electricity, and water, disregarding of their effects on the environment, because these are the primal forces of the world.

    There are lots of ways you can swing your fluff. Then, pick your spells and your class features accordingly. Yay open-ended roleplaying
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    I would say, actually, no. Druids are not clerics, and they do not necessarily worship nature the way a cleric worships a god or embraces an ideal. A druid may simply believe in the natural order--they just feel that it is the way things are. Loving it, worshipping it, and so on would be inappropriate, since those are human concepts, and nature is not human (or even anthromorphized, the way clerical deities and ideals are.)

    In fact, I can see a druid clashing with a cleric of a Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil nature god (or even a 'cleric of nature'), arguing that their deities and their concept of 'idealized nature' do not reflect the true natural order and are, in fact, perversions of it.

    Nature doesn't care if you worship or love it or not. A druid understands nature, and accepts nature, and has a sort of enlightened harmony with it... but they don't really worship it the way clerics worship their deities or ideals.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    In a Dark Sun Article, there is a variant druid that destroys nature, turning plants, animals and people (bwahahahahaha!!!) into sand, using their moisture to power his spells.

    There was also a druid PRC called a defiler or something that spreads taint.
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    I recently read about an Urban Druid base class that was pretty cool. They're like druids except they live in the city and have urban-style powers.
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Personally, I prefer to represent Druidic abilities as the result of a truly deep understanding, rather than worship.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by cupkeyk View Post
    There was also a druid PRC called a defiler or something that spreads taint.
    Blighter (CDiv).

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Well, sometimes evil druids (and evil Druid PrC's) are associated with actively hating and seeking the destruction of nature, so probably not.

    Though, by the same token, Good druids seem likely candidates to love Nature, and Neutral Druids, well, they can do what they like.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Evil druids are not allowed to actively hate and seek to destroy nature; you're thinking of Blighters. Evil druids can be portrayed as more of predators (possibly even hunting their own kind in animal form) or people who attempt to destroy civilization to return it to the wilds, or... all sorts of options, really, but they still have to have some connection to nature.

    It doesn't have to be worship, but you have to respect, revere, or understand nature on some level. Unless you're a blighter.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Well, they might only like nature, especially if they asked nature out to the prom but nature snubbed them in favor of the more popular abstract representations like love or justice. Or if a druid and nature had a nice night out but nature didn't return any of the druids calls the next day.

    I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    in my games, I have Druids who are more or less just the Clerics of Nature themed deities. They don't love NATURE so much as they live in very rustic environments.

    Not counting Urban Druids and the like.
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Gatekeepers from Eberron like nature, but they are more interested in protecting the natural order rather then nature. They see cities as a waste of time rather than a blight.

    As far as worship goes, I'd say they do. They are the priests of their faith.
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow T. Robot View Post
    Gatekeepers from Eberron like nature, but they are more interested in protecting the natural order rather then nature. They see cities as a waste of time rather than a blight.

    As far as worship goes, I'd say they do. They are the priests of their faith.
    and Kick-ass hardcore priests at that.
    Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    I would say, actually, no. Druids are not clerics, and they do not necessarily worship nature the way a cleric worships a god or embraces an ideal. A druid may simply believe in the natural order--they just feel that it is the way things are. Loving it, worshipping it, and so on would be inappropriate, since those are human concepts, and nature is not human (or even anthromorphized, the way clerical deities and ideals are.)

    In fact, I can see a druid clashing with a cleric of a Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil nature god (or even a 'cleric of nature'), arguing that their deities and their concept of 'idealized nature' do not reflect the true natural order and are, in fact, perversions of it.

    Nature doesn't care if you worship or love it or not. A druid understands nature, and accepts nature, and has a sort of enlightened harmony with it... but they don't really worship it the way clerics worship their deities or ideals.
    the above quote is kind of the way I was looking at it.

    My theory of nature is thus.
    Nothing you can do to the earth can hurt it. The earth does not care. A lifeless pile of rock is the same as a rain forest to the earth, and both exist with out the interference of man. Pure nature. Frozen waste, teeming coral reefs, lifeless ocean floors where no man has ever been totally devoid of life.

    A hurricane (such as Katerina) will kill hundreds and not be called evil. it just is. A volcano can bury an entire city entombing thousands. Is the volcano
    evil? Should it be worshiped?

    Should an oak tree be worshiped? Lightning storms are a force of nature and do not worship the forest, or trees, or animals. the storm simply burns down the entire forest and all the oak trees until it runs out of heat and fuel. Is the lightning evil? Is the fire evil for destroying a hundred thousand oaks? is man
    evil for cutting down a hundred thousand oaks? Does the earth care?

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    You DO know the Earth would have destroyed itself sooner or later, even if humans hadn't popped up? Some things go uncontrolled by nature. Nature was wholly screwed as soon as comets and meteors fell.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    You DO know the Earth would have destroyed itself sooner or later, even if humans hadn't popped up? Some things go uncontrolled by nature. Nature was wholly screwed as soon as comets and meteors fell.
    Actually, I think comets, meteors, etc are part of nature. Nature != life. Life may be a part of nature, but it isn't all of it by any means. And of course the Earth would have been destroyed even without humans. Entropy is one of the laws of nature, ditto thermodynamics. Everything gets destroyed eventually. But that's in RL. In D&D, considering a) the active presence of gods and b) the presence of ways to ignore the laws of physics (aka magic, psionics, etc) means that that's not necessarily true.
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    And then you wrote about it on your livejournal, dyed your hair black and started taking warlock levels.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Gods are supernatural. Bringing them in this debate is a baaaad idea.A god can create life outta nowhere, create new energy (blatantly impossible by rules of thermodynamics, but hey, he screws, he screws, he screws high), etc.


    And as a side note, we're talking Prime Material Plane (and maybe Land of Wild Beasts) when we say nature. Name 3 beasties or Magical beasties who have supernatural abilities. Almost all are extraordinary, aren't they?

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    My Desert Druids are Cactus Huggers.
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Are they closet Masochists, too?

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Gods are supernatural. Bringing them in this debate is a baaaad idea.A god can create life outta nowhere, create new energy (blatantly impossible by rules of thermodynamics, but hey, he screws, he screws, he screws high), etc.


    And as a side note, we're talking Prime Material Plane (and maybe Land of Wild Beasts) when we say nature. Name 3 beasties or Magical beasties who have supernatural abilities. Almost all are extraordinary, aren't they?
    Regeneration is an extraordinary ability that violates at least one of the laws of physics (namely, the whole inability to create mass from nothing violation)

    Hydras regrow their heads in a matter of seconds. The Tarrasque is literally incapable of death barring high-level magic. Basilisks can literally alter the atomic structure within someone's body from flesh to stone. Magic exists as a force in D&D, and as such, quite probably due simply to background magic, not all the rules work the same. Just the fact that creatures can regrow limgs (or heads!) from stumps with no matter intake indicates that the laws of nature are different. It's impossible to say whether the Material Plane would be destroyed by entropy when some creatures within it can actively violate the laws of physics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Blossom View Post
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    You DO know the Earth would have destroyed itself sooner or later, even if humans hadn't popped up? Some things go uncontrolled by nature. Nature was wholly screwed as soon as comets and meteors fell.
    Well, we're still around, aren't we? The comet that killed the dinosaurs did have a massive effect on the planet as a whole (and it's total hell if we go by what that Discovery Channel documentary says), but things still will survive. Apparently it takes more than that to kill all living things without hope of coming back.

    In any case, my take on it is that Druids do not need to love Nature in the sense that they are nurturing and tree-hugging, let alone be vegan. Wild animals kill and eat, so there's no reason druids should abstain from meat---unless of course, there are very few wild animals but more than enough plants to go by. Evil druids would emphasize the more predatory aspects of nature, as well as the death and entropy of it. After all, death is part of the cycle. They wouldn't strive for balance as TN druids would, however. That said, revering nature does not necessarily mean one should be a tree-hugger.


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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    By all means, no, a Druid does not have to love, or even revere, nature.

    Consider a man who has been 'chosen' by "nature" (for whatever reason) to lead a fight against those that would destroy it...to that end, he has been gifted with certain abilities (read: spells, wild shape, etc.). Though he may not understand how or why he has these powers, he has them nonetheless...in time, he may come to know the purpose for which he has been selected, but until that time, there is nothing beholding him to the love/worship/whatever of nature.

    It's not the stereotypical Druid archetype and doesn't explain how he knows Druidic or knows about the prohibition on metal armour or has skill from the Druid class skills list, but they can easily be worked in...once they have, wham, one druid that doesn't have any opinion of nature at all except that it's there (true, the premise behind it is that one day he will be a typical druid, but that's besides the point).
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    I've played a storm-focused druid who revered the power of weather, wind, and water.

    Not so much into the animals and the plants. Oh he respected them, but that wasn't his focus. I even got the DM to let me have a Storm Elemental using the elemental companion substitution class feature.

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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Much of the regeneration is simply converting fat stores into new matter?
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicKitKat View Post
    Much of the regeneration is simply converting fat stores into new matter?
    Using that logic, every time you cut off a hydra's head, it loses some weight. SRD gives hydras a weight of 4000 pounds. How much would you figure each head weighs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Blossom View Post
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex12 View Post
    Using that logic, every time you cut off a hydra's head, it loses some weight. SRD gives hydras a weight of 4000 pounds. How much would you figure each head weighs?
    Not really. As any bodybuilder will tell you, fat weighs more than muscle, and bone even more so. I figure most of these monsters probably eat up the severed heads after the fight(along with the poor saps who lost to them), while trolls and the sort typically try to reattach, or else stuff whatever they can down the throat hole.
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    Whenever you mention Pun-pun*SQUELCH!*, Ao kills another Kobold.
    Everytime someone says "Pazuzu" twice, Ao erases them on the next "Pa". Then he undeletes them so he can wipeinfo them from the multiverse.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Must Druids Love Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicKitKat View Post
    Not really. As any bodybuilder will tell you, fat weighs more than muscle, and bone even more so. I figure most of these monsters probably eat up the severed heads after the fight(along with the poor saps who lost to them), while trolls and the sort typically try to reattach, or else stuff whatever they can down the throat hole.
    Well not to get too far off track... but muscle weighs more than fat.

    And Regeneration is an ability that octapus have amongst other animals. also plants.

    It is not stored fat. It is the type of cell structure and probably too complicated to explain here.
    Last edited by AnnShadow; 2007-11-06 at 12:01 PM.

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