Rogue Squadron Movie! (and I guess a bunch of other stuff)

[Peelee]

We'll have to agree to disagree there. While the old canon had it's bad moments, it's overall pretty great.

I'll take that bet. Here's a list of all old canon Star Wars novels I've read and my opinions about them (very simplified opinions, and I had to reign myself in from really trashing the worst of the worst). Not listed are ebook novellas, young adult books, and books I have not read - warning, it's still a bit long.

Spoiler: Don't say I didn't warn you.

Show

The Old Republic era

The Old Republic: Revan by Drew Karpyshyn bad

The Old Republic: Deceived by Paul S. Kemp bad

Red Harvest by Joe Schreiber bad

The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance by Sean Williams bad

The Old Republic: Annihilation by Drew Karpyshyn bad

Knight Errant by John Jackson Miller forgettable

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction by Drew Karpyshyn good

Darth Bane: Rule of Two by Drew Karpyshyn good

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil by Drew Karpyshyn good

Rise of the Empire era

Darth Plagueis by James Luceno forgettable

Darth Maul: Saboteur by James Luceno forgettable

Cloak of Deception by James Luceno bad

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter by Michael Reaves bad

Rogue Planet by Greg Bear bad

Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn good

The Approaching Storm by Alan Dean Foster forgettable

Jedi Trial by David Sherman and Dan Cragg bad

Republic Commando: Hard Contact by Karen Traviss forgettable

Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover bad

Republic Commando: Triple Zero by Karen Traviss forgettable

Republic Commando: True Colors by Karen Traviss forgettable

MedStar I: Battle Surgeons by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

MedStar II: Jedi Healer by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart bad

Labyrinth of Evil by James Luceno bad

Order 66: A Republic Commando Novel by Karen Traviss forgettable

Imperial Commando: 501st by Karen Traviss good

Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight by Michael Reaves good

Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows by Michael Reaves good

Coruscant Nights III: Patterns of Force by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

The Last Jedi by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

The Paradise Snare by A. C. Crispin good

The Hutt Gambit by A.C. Crispin good

Tales from the Empire (anthology) good

Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Death Star by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

Han Solo at Stars' End by Brian Daley good

Han Solo's Revenge by Brian Daley good

Han Solo and the Lost Legacy by Brian Daley forgettable

Rebel Dawn by A. C. Crispin good

Death Troopers by Joe Schreiber bad

Rebellion era

Tales from the New Republic (anthology) good

Shadow Games by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina (anthology) good

Scoundrels by Timothy Zahn good

Allegiance by Timothy Zahn good

Choices of One by Timothy Zahn good

Splinter of the Mind's Eye by Alan Dean Foster bad

Tales of the Bounty Hunters (anthology) good

Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry good

Tales from Jabba's Palace (anthology) good

The Mandalorian Armor by K. W. Jeter bad

Slave Ship by K. W. Jeter bad

Hard Merchandise by K. W. Jeter bad

The Truce at Bakura by Kathy Tyers bad

New Republic era

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor by Matthew Stover bad

X-Wing: Rogue Squadron by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: The Krytos Trap by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: The Bacta War by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: Wraith Squadron by Aaron Allston good

X-Wing: Iron Fist by Aaron Allston good

X-Wing: Solo Command by Aaron Allston good

The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverton bad

Tatooine Ghost by Troy Denning good

Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn good

Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn good

The Last Command by Timothy Zahn good

X-Wing: Isard's Revenge by Michael A. Stackpole bad

Jedi Search by Kevin J. Anderson bad

Dark Apprentice by Kevin J. Anderson bad

Champions of the Force by Kevin J. Anderson bad

I, Jedi by Michael A. Stackpole good

Children of the Jedi by Barbara Hambly bad

Darksaber by Kevin J. Anderson bad

X-Wing: Starfighters of Adumar by Aaron Allston good*

Planet of Twilight by Barbara Hambly bad

The Crystal Star by Vonda N. McIntyre bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Shield of Lies by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Tyrant's Test by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The New Rebellion by Kristine Kathryn Rusch bad

Ambush at Corellia by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Assault at Selonia by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Showdown at Centerpoint by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Specter of the Past by Timothy Zahn good

Vision of the Future by Timothy Zahn good

Survivor's Quest by Timothy Zahn good

New Jedi Order era

The New Jedi Order: Vector Prime by R. A. Salvatore bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I: Onslaught by Michael A. Stackpole bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin by Michael A. Stackpole bad

The New Jedi Order: Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial by James Luceno bad

The New Jedi Order: Agents of Chaos II: Jedi Eclipse by James Luceno bad

The New Jedi Order: Balance Point by Kathy Tyers bad

The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory I: Conquest by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory II: Rebirth by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: Star by Star by Troy Denning bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey by Elaine Cunningham bad

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream by Aaron Allston bad

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand by Aaron Allston bad

The New Jedi Order: Traitor by Matthew Stover bad

The New Jedi Order: Destiny's Way by Walter Jon Williams bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic I: Remnant by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic II: Refugee by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic III: Reunion by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: The Final Prophecy by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force by James Luceno AAAA Dark Nest I: The Joiner King by Troy Denning bad

Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen by Troy Denning AAAA Dark Nest III: The Swarm War by Troy Denning bad

Legacy era

Legacy of the Force: Betrayal by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines by Karen Traviss bad

Legacy of the Force: Tempest by Troy Denning bad

Legacy of the Force: Exile by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice by Karen Traviss bad

Legacy of the Force: Inferno by Troy Denning bad

Legacy of the Force: Fury by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Revelation by Karen Traviss bad

Legacy of the Force: Invincible by Troy Denning bad

Crosscurrent by Paul S. Kemp forgettable

Riptide by Paul S. Kemp forgettable

Millennium Falcon by James Luceno good

Fate of the Jedi: Outcast by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Omen by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss by Troy Denning bad

Fate of the Jedi: Backlash by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Allies by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Vortex by Troy Denning bad

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by Troy Denning bad

X-Wing: Mercy Kill by Aaron Allston forgettable

Crucible by Troy Denning forgettable



*probably my favorite, if only for its 100% nonstop sheer, unadulterated fun.

In particular the stuff inhabiting the same stretch of time the sequels do, is 100% better than the sequels.

As far as old canon in the same stretch of time... the bar was on the floor for that, so even if we claim it was better than the sequels (which I am not prepared to admit, if only because I would rather not compare two different flavors of bad), that's hardly saying anything.

The sequels themselves do a lazier rehash of one of the weaker eu plots, the clone of palpatine.

Now on that I will agree. Mostly, at least; it was entirely Episode IX which did that, effectively shanghai-ing the other two into its retcon. But still, yeah, you're absolutely on the money there.

ETA:

Hey, now they ripped off the original movies. If that ended up looking like the old EU, well...

That got a good chuckle out of me.

The Last Jedi tried to say something about Star Wars, to do something new. The Rise of Skywalker is just a cavalcade of action scenes barely held together by an excuse of a plot and ignores the previous film or goes out of its way to contradict it. Also it finishes The Force Awakens' job of erasing the results of the original heroes efforts by bringing back Sidious. Also its aping of of previous milestones of Star Wars (hero discovers dark parentage, evil man turns good, Palpatine wants to be struck down) ring hollow and soulless. It's a cash-grab that is content with being a cash-grab. Whatever your opinion of Last Jedi, at least it was a cash-grab that tried to be something more.

Agreed. Of the sequel trilogy, The Last Jedi is the only one I can even respect, because at least it tried to do something new and different. I wasn't a fan of what it tried, but I damn sure like that it tried. That exact same sentiment I also extend to the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Frankly, a mere cash-grab would be far preferable to The Last Jedi. Hell, I still suspect that I would prefer Rise of Skywalker to it if I ever watched it, just because for all the stupid things I've heard about it, at least it sounds more entertaining and less depressing than The Last Jedi was.

Oh, you would be surprised.

[dancrilis]

Frankly, a mere cash-grab would be far preferable to The Last Jedi. Hell, I still suspect that I would prefer Rise of Skywalker to it if I ever watched it, just because for all the stupid things I've heard about it, at least it sounds more entertaining and less depressing than The Last Jedi was.

I would actually encourage you to watch Rise of Skywalker.

To explain The Last Jedi was terrible in every way that it could be - I hated that movie and have largely blocked it from my mind (which to an extent I am starting to do with the entire trilogy). I very nearly didn't go to see Rise of Skywalker because of how awful The Last Jedi was.

However I am glad I did watch Rise of Skywalker it is the best of the sequel movies (a low bar to be sure, and do not go in with high expectations) - one of the improvements was Rise of Skywalker has actual villains with some weight or presence (for lack of a better term) which was sorely lacking in the other movies (and Ian McDiarmid is fun as Palpatine).

Now to be clear the movie is not good but if you hate The Last Jedi then Rise of Skywalker can do a lot to wash the terribleness out of your mind, or at least it did for me.

[137beth]

Wasn't that for the fifth book?

Nope, it was the fourth one. The fifth book the the trilogy was called Mostly Harmless.

In any event, The Empire Strikes Back also did not kill the trilogy it was a part of despite being the third film (after A New Hope and the Holiday Special.) The movie that killed the original trilogy was the fourth film in the trilogy: Return of the Jedi.

[Peelee]

Rise of Skywalker has actual villains with some weight or presence (for lack of a better term)

Were they hiding behind Palpatine and... I honestly can't even name another. Anyway, were those villains with weight and presence hiding behind Palpatine?

[Dire_Flumph]

one of the improvements was Rise of Skywalker has actual villains with some weight or presence (for lack of a better term) which was sorely lacking in the other movies (and Ian McDiarmid is fun as Palpatine).

Ooh, sorry, but one thing I will give Last Jedi is the presence of Captain Canady, grumpy Dreadnaught captain extraordinaire. If they had just given him full command of First Order Forces the Resistance wouldn't have had a chance.

Poe and Paige Tico likely won the war in the first five minutes of that film by depriving the First Order of its only competent officer.

[Peelee]

Ooh, sorry, but one thing I will give Last Jedi is the presence of Captain Canady, grumpy Dreadnaught captain extraordinaire. If they had just given him full command of First Order Forces the Resistance wouldn't have had a chance.

Poe and Paige Tico likely won the war in the first five minutes of that film by depriving the First Order of its only competent officer.

Not to mention the one ship that could have ended the chase after the first jump.

[Zevox]

I would actually encourage you to watch Rise of Skywalker.

To explain The Last Jedi was terrible in every way that it could be - I hated that movie and have largely blocked it from my mind (which to an extent I am starting to do with the entire trilogy). I very nearly didn't go to see Rise of Skywalker because of how awful The Last Jedi was.

However I am glad I did watch Rise of Skywalker it is the best of the sequel movies (a low bar to be sure, and do not go in with high expectations) - one of the improvements was Rise of Skywalker has actual villains with some weight or presence (for lack of a better term) which was sorely lacking in the other movies (and Ian McDiarmid is fun as Palpatine).

Now to be clear the movie is not good but if you hate The Last Jedi then Rise of Skywalker can do a lot to wash the terribleness out of your mind, or at least it did for me.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that Palpatine is a far better villain in his worst film than Kylo, Snoke, or Hux ever were - that's part of why I suspect I'd think more highly of Rise of Skywalker than TLJ. But the fact of the matter is, I just don't care enough to bother watching it. I mean, I've had access to Disney+ through a family member's account for most a year now, so I could watch it for free, but I haven't found myself even seriously contemplating it. TLJ killed my interest in any continuation of that story, and what I already know about Rise of Skywalker more than tells me that it's not good enough to reignite that interest. I take a small amount of happiness knowing that Kylo dies and I needn't worry about him becoming a recurring villain in future films, and that's all I really need from it at this point.

[Peelee]

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that Palpatine is a far better villain in his worst film than Kylo, Snoke, or Hux ever were

Spoiler alert, he's really not.

[Zevox]

Spoiler alert, he's really not.

If so, that is extremely sad, because the high bar out of those three is Snoke, who is just a weak Palpatine rip-off.

[Peelee]

If so, that is extremely sad, because the high bar out of those three is Snoke, who is just a weak Palpatine rip-off.

Let me put it this way:

Palpatine is a super powerful guy who can manipulate anyone by being super good at controlling anything or anyone he wants controlled and he has his own planet where everyone loves him because hes just the best and they do whatever he wants and he also has a fleet ten thousand times the size of the First Order's made up of Star Destroyers and each one has its own Death Star superlaser and can destroy planets and also he has super lightning powers that can destroy the entirety of both his super awesome million-ship-large fleet Star Destroyers and also the even-more-somehow fleet of random civilian ships which can somehow overpower the million-ship-largefleet of Star Destoyers with planet-killing superlasers because he's all the Sith but then he gets destroyed by Rey because she's all the Jedi even though his entire plan was to get destroyed by Rey because that would make him invincible because he's super powerful.

I quite honestly expect at some point for someone to admit that J. J. Abrams let an 8-year-old write the outline for the movie.

[dancrilis]

Were they hiding behind Palpatine and... I honestly can't even name another. Anyway, were those villains with weight and presence hiding behind Palpatine?

I am meaning Palpatine and the guy who shot the incompetent guy from the earlier films.

Effectively Palpatine has presence from being in other movies - it was a cheat to have him in ROS and it was relying a lot on other films to carry him but Ian McDiarmid still did a decent job as him.
Could have done without the lightning show but after he got healthy I like to think he just threw up an illusion and walked away.

The other guy at least demonstrated that Imperial Officers will not tolerate obvious nonsense which gives him a bit of weight.

None of the characters in The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi had any weight as villains in my view.

Ooh, sorry, but one thing I will give Last Jedi is the presence of Captain Canady, grumpy Dreadnaught captain extraordinaire.

I will grant that that guy looked like he might have some gravitas to him alright but he wasn't around long enough to be sure.

Edit:

But the fact of the matter is, I just don't care enough to bother watching it.

I can fully understand this.

Palpatine is a super powerful guy who can manipulate anyone by being super good at controlling anything or anyone he wants controlled and he has his own planet where everyone loves him because hes just the best and they do whatever he wants and he also has a fleet ten thousand times the size of the First Order's made up of Star Destroyers and each one has its own Death Star superlaser and can destroy planets and also he has super lightning powers that can destroy the entirety of both his super awesome million-ship-large fleet Star Destroyers and also the even-more-somehow fleet of random civilian ships which can somehow overpower the million-ship-largefleet of Star Destoyers with planet-killing superlasers because he's all the Sith but then he gets destroyed by Rey because she's all the Jedi even though his entire plan was to get destroyed by Rey because that would make him invincible because he's super powerful.

I think the element that you are missing is that Palpatine is enjoyable to watch and listen to - sure everything was daft and bringing him back undermines RotJ (a much better movie I think we can all agree), but in comparison to the other two sequel movies at least Palpatine was his laughing, mocking, enjoyable self.

[Peelee]

I think the element that you are missing is that Palpatine is enjoyable to watch and listen to

The thing is, he wasn't. At least, not for me. He would have been if he had been written with anything even remotely resembling competence, but as it was, it had about the same effect on me as if a friend did their best Palpatine impression during a game of Ticket to Ride. Except that would at least be somewhat amusing.

[Zevox]

Let me put it this way:

Palpatine is a super powerful guy who can manipulate anyone by being super good at controlling anything or anyone he wants controlled and he has his own planet where everyone loves him because hes just the best and they do whatever he wants and he also has a fleet ten thousand times the size of the First Order's made up of Star Destroyers and each one has its own Death Star superlaser and can destroy planets and also he has super lightning powers that can destroy the entirety of both his super awesome million-ship-large fleet Star Destroyers and also the even-more-somehow fleet of random civilian ships which can somehow overpower the million-ship-largefleet of Star Destoyers with planet-killing superlasers because he's all the Sith but then he gets destroyed by Rey because she's all the Jedi even though his entire plan was to get destroyed by Rey because that would make him invincible because he's super powerful.

I quite honestly expect at some point for someone to admit that J. J. Abrams let an 8-year-old write the outline for the movie.

Oh, I completely agree about how dumb all of those plot elements are. I just mean, as dancrilis said, Palpatine himself as an individual. If only because I know him from better films where he earned it, he'd inherently be a more intimidating antagonist and a more credible threat to the heroes than Kylo and company ever were. Kind of like how I still cared about Luke at the end of TLJ despite how awful what its story did to his character was (and thus why I hated its ending so much...).

Plus, even if Palpatine just hammed it up for the whole movie, that'd still be more entertaining than any of the other sequel villains. Seriously, the villains are one of my two biggest complaints about the sequels, and the only one that holds true across both of the sequels that I did watch, so that bar is set extremely low.

[Peelee]

Oh, I completely agree about how dumb all of those plot elements are. I just mean, as dancrilis said, Palpatine himself as an individual. If only because I know him from better films where he earned it, he'd inherently be a more intimidating antagonist and a more credible threat to the heroes than Kylo and company ever were. Kind of like how I still cared about Luke at the end of TLJ despite how awful what its story did to his character was (and thus why I hated its ending so much...).

Plus, even if Palpatine just hammed it up for the whole movie, that'd still be more entertaining than any of the other sequel villains. Seriously, the villains are one of my two biggest complaints about the sequels, and the only one that holds true across both of the sequels that I did watch, so that bar is set extremely low.

If Palpatine hammed it up for the whole movie, that would indeed have been marginally entertaining. Instead, he just... was there. I disagree with the concept that Ian McDiarmid did a good job (mostly because Abrams wrote and directed Palpatine in this movie), because most of his "presence" is a strobe light attempting to manufacture atmosphere. Previously, you had the entire Imperial military be abjectly terrified of being within the Emperor's withering gaze. The remaining Jedi feared him and gave grave warnings to Luke about underestimating his power. Everything was a subtle build up to his power, which he wields so well that he does not need to exert any of it until the climax.

As opposed to Ride of Skywalker Palpatine, where he is basically Zoidberg saying "Who needs character development when you've got a gun! Who's scared now, big city?"

Yes, I know that first part was Farnsworth.

[Bohandas]

However I am glad I did watch Rise of Skywalker it is the best of the sequel movies (a low bar to be sure, and do not go in with high expectations) - one of the improvements was Rise of Skywalker has actual villains with some weight or presence (for lack of a better term) which was sorely lacking in the other movies (and Ian McDiarmid is fun as Palpatine).

Now to be clear the movie is not good but if you hate The Last Jedi then Rise of Skywalker can do a lot to wash the terribleness out of your mind, or at least it did for me.

Exactly. The main problem with Rise of Skywalker was that it had to clean up after Last Jedi and all of its inconsistencies and inane plot twists, most especially:
*Rey being "nobody",
*Luke's personality change,
*the changes to how hyperdrive works,
*Rose "heroically" saving the imperial superweapon,
*and most of all, the director's decision to kill off the main villain simply because he could. I admit that fight scene was cool, but it wrecked the plot.

If Rise of Skywalker was a bad movie it was only because The Last Jedi wrote it into a corner. Any problem with Rise of Skywalker is not actually a problem with the movie itself, but rather a problem with The Last Jedi which has carried over.

[Peelee]

*Rey being "nobody"

Not an inconsistency/inane plot twist.

*the changes to how hyperdrive works

Eh, TFA did that already.

[Bohandas]

Not an inconsistency/inane plot twist.

Well I mean, it's not both. I'm not sure if any of the things on the list are both, but it's definitely the latter. The Force Awakens definitely implied she was somebody.

[Peelee]

Well I mean, it's not both. I'm not sure if any of the things on the list are both, but it's definitely the latter. The Force Awakens definitely implied she was somebody.

The Force Awakens can imply that she was a Wookiee for all that it matters. Doesn't mean those implications have to be true, and it's not inconsistent if they're not.

[Bohandas]

I'd say that the plot of The Last Jedi theoretically works, but it does not work within the context of Star Wars. It shares this property with Rogue One. They're both a decent movie theoretically, but they're not Star Wars, not even bad Star Wars, and Star Wars is what most of the audience came to see. It honestly would have been less of a travesty if the plot had revolved around Life Day and midichlorians. That would be bad but at least it would be Star Wars

Frankly, I'm surprised the parks make that much. The costs must be nightmarish.

They are, that's how they make so much.

So my argument is basically this: by scrapping the EU, Disney gave itself the freedom of maneuver to appeal to a newer, younger fanbase. If it did a good job (and my sense is it generally did up until Rise), it gets a new batch of people who will spend on Star Wars for decades to come. Young fans are more valuable than old fans, since they're not as far through their total lifetime expenditures, and are much more influential in terms of defining the culture.

Or in other words, Disney operates much like a Disney villain



They dismantled the expanded universe in order to force people to but in to their new version

[lowfyr]

The thing is that how much the films make has always been an afterthought. Because at the end of the Day Disney isn't a film company. It's a Entertainment company focusing on Parks, Hotels and Cruise lines. Even looking at how much money the Marvel films make at the box office. It's only a fraction of what they make daily at their parks.

Starwars is important because the IP allows them to use stuff at their parks. That's where the money is.

And not to forget Star Wars always made the most money with the merchandise and putting the Logo on everything. Compared to that how much the movies make is secondary to that.

The MCU may not make quite so much in merchandise but it has how much movies that made more than a billion dollars? Six I think. So anyone "hoping" that they will stop doing it should not hold their breath.

[Bohandas]

And not to forget Star Wars always made the most money with the merchandise and putting the Logo on everything. Compared to that how much the movies make is secondary to that.

The MCU may not make quite so much in merchandise but it has how much movies that made more than a billion dollars? Six I think. So anyone "hoping" that they will stop doing it should not hold their breath.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgRFQJCHcPw&t=00m38s

[lowfyr]

I'd say that the plot of The Last Jedi theoretically works, but it does not work within the context of Star Wars. It shares this property with Rogue One. They're both a decent movie theoretically, but they're not Star Wars, not even bad Star Wars, and Star Wars is what most of the audience came to see. It honestly would have been less of a travesty if the plot had revolved around Life Day and midichlorians. That would be bad but at least it would be Star Wars

Remembering the last movie I would think "not being Star Wars"(not that this statement made sense ever) should have been done more often. Solo blows that one out of the water easily. And regarding Palpatine him showing up again is just one more example , what they did wrong in that triology. Last Jedi is for me the best of the three.

[lowfyr]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fgRFQJCHcPw&t=00m38s

And? I did not need Spaceballs to know that. It was always something to joke about that Lucas got the most profitable part after "only" getting the merchandise part as payment.

[Fyraltari]

[snip]

Wow, you were really committed to reading The New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force (I am guessing that Revelations was bad too) and Fate of the Jedi, weren't you?

ETA:
That got a good chuckle out of me.

Yay.

Agreed. Of the sequel trilogy, The Last Jedi is the only one I can even respect, because at least it tried to do something new and different. I wasn't a fan of what it tried, but I damn sure like that it tried. That exact same sentiment I also extend to the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Hmm, I hadn't made that parallel. I'll have to dwell on that.

Oh, you would be surprised.

Agreed, Sidious just felt so lifeless. It was like watching a sixty-five year old rockstar act as if they were just as spry and cool as when they were twenty-two. Like, Sidious was menacing because he always managed to maneuver the heroes into terrible situations where he can stand back and chuckle "goooood" to himself, not because he shat superweapons/powers by the brazillions. Also, how is he alive? "Somehow Palpatine has returned" and a Prequel meme. When TLJ didn't give Snoke a backstory that was part of saying that he wasn't actually important, that the main villain was Kylo Ren. When TROS didn't explain how its main villain came back from the dead, it was because it couldn't be arsed.

Nope, it was the fourth one. The fifth book the the trilogy was called Mostly Harmless.

Right, bur wasn't it that one who called the Hitchhiker's Trilogy "increasingly poorly named"?

In any event, The Empire Strikes Back also did not kill the trilogy it was a part of despite being the third film (after A New Hope and the Holiday Special.) The movie that killed the original trilogy was the fourth film in the trilogy: Return of the Jedi.

The Holiday Special was a special. It doesn't count.

Let me put it this way:

Palpatine is a super powerful guy who can manipulate anyone by being super good at controlling anything or anyone he wants controlled and he has his own planet where everyone loves him because hes just the best and they do whatever he wants and he also has a fleet ten thousand times the size of the First Order's made up of Star Destroyers and each one has its own Death Star superlaser and can destroy planets and also he has super lightning powers that can destroy the entirety of both his super awesome million-ship-large fleet Star Destroyers and also the even-more-somehow fleet of random civilian ships which can somehow overpower the million-ship-largefleet of Star Destoyers with planet-killing superlasers because he's all the Sith but then he gets destroyed by Rey because she's all the Jedi even though his entire plan was to get destroyed by Rey because that would make him invincible because he's super powerful.

I quite honestly expect at some point for someone to admit that J. J. Abrams let an 8-year-old write the outline for the movie.

You forget, he can also drain life from people to rejuvenate himself, but only if they are a "dyad in the Force", whatever that means.

Exactly. The main problem with Rise of Skywalker was that it had to clean up after Last Jedi and all of its inconsistencies and inane plot twists, most especially:
*Rey being "nobody",

Ain't no problem. In fact the idea that she just had to be a Skywalker, Kenobi or Palpatine was among the worst reactions to TFA.

*Luke's personality change,

Luke's personality was consistent. He spends the entire OT flirting with the Dark Side, so how is it surprising that in the ST he has a flirt with the Dark Side, resist it and then feels guilty?

*the changes to how hyperdrive works,

Of you mean, hyperspace tracking, A) that doesn't change how hyperdrive works and B) that was TFA not TLJ.

*Rose "heroically" saving the imperial superweapon,

what's this to do with TLJ?

and most of all, the director's decision to kill off the main villain simply because he could. I admit that fight scene was cool, but it wrecked the plot.

Rian Johnson didn't kill Snoke "just because he could." He killed him because Snoke was a generic Emperor clone (only figuratively at the time) while Kylo Ren was the one with a connection to the heroes. Like Kylo Ren was one of TFA's moment of brilliance. SW has tried time and time again to recreate the magic of the Vader character and it never quite takes. Then a new trilogy comes around and you know you can't top Vader, so what do you do? You make a character who wants to be Vader but fails at it, a man so focused on aping his idol he is blind to his own strengths and only superficially imitates him (the mask and all). Where do you go from there? Well, you make the guy stop trying to be Vader to become his own thing, so he destroys his mask (symbolising his attempt to be Vader) and you have him do what Vader never did: kill his master and take his place, reject redemption. Where do you go from there? Well, the obviously correct choice would be to have this guy lead the villains in the next film. Have him be the main threat and die unredeemed. Make a moral oit of it like "you can't fix people. You can only help them fix themselves. In the end if someone doesn't want to be saved it's not your responsability to destroy yourself trying to save them" or something. Or maybe you just give him Vader's redemption arc, what do I know, I don't work for Hollywood.

If Rise of Skywalker was a bad movie it was only because The Last Jedi wrote it into a corner. Any problem with Rise of Skywalker is not actually a problem with the movie itself, but rather a problem with The Last Jedi which has carried over.

Nah, TLJ left TROS plenty to work with. TROS just wasn't interested in doing anything with it.

I'd say that the plot of The Last Jedi theoretically works, but it does not work within the context of Star Wars. It shares this property with Rogue One. They're both a decent movie theoretically, but they're not Star Wars, not even bad Star Wars

Yes it is. It's called Knights of the Old Republic II: the Sith Lords and it is glorious in its uncompleteness.

Or in other words, Disney operates much like a Disney villain



They dismantled the expanded universe in order to force people to but in to their new version

Oh no, the multi-billions worth corporation acts soullessly without any care for creativity or art. I am shock.

[lowfyr]

Wow, you were really committed to reading The New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force (I am guessing that Revelations was bad too) and Fate of the Jedi, weren't you?


Yay.


Hmm, I hadn't made that parallel. I'll have to dwell on that.


Agreed, Sidious just felt so lifeless. It was like watching a sixty-five year old rockstar act as if they were just as spry and cool as when they were twenty-two. Like, Sidious was menacing because he always managed to maneuver the heroes into terrible situations where he can stand back and chuckle "goooood" to himself, not because he shat superweapons/powers by the brazillions. Also, how is he alive? "Somehow Palpatine has returned" and a Prequel meme. When TLJ didn't give Snoke a backstory that was part of saying that he wasn't actually important, that the main villain was Kylo Ren. When TROS didn't explain how its main villain came back from the dead, it was because it couldn't be arsed.

Right, bur wasn't it that one who called the Hitchhiker's Trilogy "increasingly poorly named"?


The Holiday Special was a special. It doesn't count.



You forget, he can also drain life from people to rejuvenate himself, but only if they are a "dyad in the Force", whatever that means.

Ain't no problem. In fact the idea that she just had to be a Skywalker, Kenobi or Palpatine was among the worst reactions to TFA.

Luke's personality was consistent. He spends the entire OT flirting with the Dark Side, so how is it surprising that in the ST he has a flirt with the Dark Side, resist it and then feels guilty?
Of you mean, hyperspace tracking, A) that doesn't change how hyperdrive works and B) that was TFA not TLJ.
what's this to do with TLJ?

Rian Johnson didn't kill Snoke "just because he could." He killed him because Snoke was a generic Emperor clone (only figuratively at the time) while Kylo Ren was the one with a connection to the heroes. Like Kylo Ren was one of TFA's moment of brilliance. SW has tried time and time again to recreate the magic of the Vader character and it never quite takes. Then a new trilogy comes around and you know you can't top Vader, so what do you do? You make a character who wants to be Vader but fails at it, a man so focused on aping his idol he is blind to his own strengths and only superficially imitates him (the mask and all). Where do you go from there? Well, you make the guy stop trying to be Vader to become his own thing, so he destroys his mask (symbolising his attempt to be Vader) and you have him do what Vader never did: kill his master and take his place, reject redemption. Where do you go from there? Well, the obviously correct choice would be to have this guy lead the villains in the next film. Have him be the main threat and die unredeemed. Make a moral oit of it like "you can't fix people. You can only help them fix themselves. In the end if someone doesn't want to be saved it's not your responsability to destroy yourself trying to save them" or something. Or maybe you just give him Vader's redemption arc, what do I know, I don't work for Hollywood.


Nah, TLJ left TROS plenty to work with. TROS just wasn't interested in doing anything with it.

Yes it is. It's called Knights of the Old Republic II: the Sith Lords and it is glorious in its uncompleteness.


Oh no, the multi-billions worth corporation acts soullessly without any care for creativity or art. I am shock.

So much this. We really need a like button^^.

[Fyraltari]

So much this. We really need a like button^^.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm also in agreement with Fyraltari. I think TLJ had some big wierd problems, but was fundamentally both trying and succeeding to be something better than the others in the sequel trilogy. I liked Nobody Rey, Grumpy Luke, and Kill Him Off Because He's Not Worth Keeping Snoke.

[Xyril]

I've been reading Star Wars fans complain about Star Wars since basically as long as I've been on the internet. And yet they nearly always seem to have consumed the latest piece of Star Wars stuff, so apparently the complaining doesn't really stop them from spending money on Star Wars. Basically I'm saying that Star Wars fans hating Star Wars is a recurring meme for a reason.

"Star Wars" isn't a single work. Stuff has varied in quality over the past few decades. Also, with such a massive and vocal fandom, even the better works will have detractors, and the nature of the internet means that everyone will see those criticisms. Heck, if anything, the fact that those guys are so vocally against a strong majority opinion probably gets them even more attention. I found The Phantom Menace incredibly disappointing, and a few books/plot arcs of New Jedi Order were probably high on Peelee's list of Sturgeon's law examples, that didn't stop me from continuing to read the books because most of them were written by folks who had nothing to do with TPM. The only thing TPM put at risk was the likelihood of me watching the rest off the prequel trilogy (since creatively and editorially it had more in common with that first movie.) A bad movie is a bigger deal than a bad book or comic, but in the end it's still a single bad work in a generally great franchise.

The unique problem with the final trilogy isn't that it was disappointing in itself, but rather the fact that it happened in conjunction with a massive continuity reset. You put out two, three, or even four absolutely terrible movies in a row, and it would arguably ruin the franchise for casual fans who only watch the movies, but for more hardcore fans, it doesn't necessarily impact the trajectory of the spinoff works they've been enjoying for years. However, if you put out any major flagship works, in conjunction with a general continuity wipe, then you're effectively signaling to the fans what the new shape of the universe will be. If

Both of which are, compared to Star Wars (and Star Wars marketing) small fry. Also by all accounts extremely badly made movies. I don't particularly like TFA or TLJ, but they aren't fundamentally incompetent films - I'd actually say that right up until Maz's palace and the sudden need for a third act causes Starkiller Base to be pulled directly from thin air, TFA is an interesting and moderately creative piece of Star Wars stuff. It certainly made a giant pile of cash, and seemed to generate a lot of excitement.

That's my point: If you were reading comments and reviews around the time they came out, they were "by all accounts" terrible movies. If you look at accounts much later, when it was rediscovered on streaming services, the reviews were more mixed--those movies were nothing special, but not something that needed to be killed with fire either. Despite being "small fry" by comparison, those other movies had passionate, if niche audiences, and both generated a ton of excitement until folks actually watched them. Even though the actual numbers of fans who even knew the original works were much smaller by comparison, their disappointment in those movies as adaptations of the source materials poisoned the well. Tons off folks who didn't know the original works--or weren't invested enough at the prospect off an orthodoxly faithful adaptation--gave those films a pass.

So my argument is basically this: by scrapping the EU, Disney gave itself the freedom of maneuver to appeal to a newer, younger fanbase. If it did a good job (and my sense is it generally did up until Rise), it gets a new batch of people who will spend on Star Wars for decades to come. Young fans are more valuable than old fans, since they're not as far through their total lifetime expenditures, and are much more influential in terms of defining the culture. If your flagship product is a movie, aiming for young and female is a strong bet, because young male people tend to spend on videogames instead.

Except there was zero reason to do this. The EU had already been making the shift, gradually and organically over the course of decades, in a way that didn't invite any pushback or criticisms about lazy tokenism. It had numerous complex, interesting, and well-written female characters, and perhaps more importantly, there was nothing about existing canon that was preventing them from putting in more. Mara Jade and Jaina Solo were bordering on memetic badass levels of hyper-competence, Leia's unique path as an eventual Jedi whose role wasn't primarily defined by being a Jedi was done far better than what they pulled off in the last three movies, and the countless moderately prominent characters like Daala and Isaard demonstrated that complex female characters could fill all sorts of roles.

Was this impossible to do by sticking to the EU? I obviously can't disprove a hypothetical, and I've never paid any real attention to the EU in the first place so I can't really speak with any expertise on the matter, but it seems at the very least a substantial handicap.

Well, at least you didn't say, "You should never listen to anyone who's not a medical expert. I'm not a medical expert. Now listen to me." A large body off continuity will always produce constraints, but it can also provide springboards.

For one thing a lot of the EU is (to my limited understanding) pretty focused on the original cast, which given their age by the time of the Disney acquisition would (probably?) render a lot of the stories simply not workable.

Wait, are you talking about making new movies and live action series? It sounds like you're arguing that we needed to scrap all of the EU books because if they exist, we're obligated to adapt them all to live action, and we can't do that if Carrie Fisher is gone and Harrison Ford is way too old. I'm not saying your conclusion is necessarily wrong, but it does seem to be based on numerous mistaken assumptions and incorrect facts.

First, you don't need to bring back the same actors to play the same characters. We already had a new actor play young Han Solo, and it wasn't jarring or weird or anything like that. We had a new actor playing original Spock just barely before he was portrayed by Leonard Nimoy, and he was one of the best parts of Discovery Season 2.

Second, we don't need to adapt everything to live action. Millions of fans were following Star Wars in print media for decades. While there was certainly a lot of "wouldn't it be cool if this were adapted to a TV series" talk, the fact that those works only existed in a form that required basic literacy didn't make those works less "real" to the fans who followed them--more importantly to Disney, it also didn't prevent them from spending money.

Third, Star Wars EU was actually much better about being more compartmentalized in terms of its massive body of continuity. Reading Timothy Zahn's original Thrawn works certainly helped you to better appreciate the complexities of the character (or his proteges) whenever they appeared. However, even if you never read those books at all, futures works generally stood on their own well enough that you wouldn't be confused. Heck, if you never watched a single Star Wars movie, most of the EU books and comics made perfect sense as their own stories.

Even if you skip ahead, it leaves all stuff between Return of the Jedi and whenever you pick up the story to explain, and multiple novels is a lot to cram into an opening crawl. It also seems unlikely that you could, for instance, get Harrison Ford to sign up for a huge pile of Star Wars stuff. For another, if you're aiming for a young audience, making your central characters are bunch of old farts is generally a bad move.

You seem to think that the EU is this massive body of required reading, without which future works make no sense. This is blatantly incorrect. Much like real-life history, past events are great for contextualizing and understanding current events, but if you zoom in at any arbitrary time period, and you can find a ton of worthwhile stories that make compelling, self-contained narratives. This becomes even easier when you can literally make up those current events. Many of my absolute favorite stories happened in the early New Republic era--works like the X-wing/Rogue Squadron series or the Sun Crusher trilogy were amazing at fleshing out the galaxy and putting the focus on the importance of various characters who weren't played by A-list actors. In terms of understanding context, however, they can all pretty much be summarized as "Winning the rebellion didn't mean immediately rebuilding the Old Republic and the Jedi Order in all its glory. For years, it was a struggle to defend the fledgling New Republic from both internal and external threats, and remnants of the Empire held on long after Palpatine's death, remaining a threat until there was finally an official peace. Also, Luke started training a bunch of new Jedi." That's literally all you need to know to understand works set after this period.

Which reminds me, your fourth major mistake is that the EU is primarily about the the main movie cast. It's not. They remain important, and certainly appear in more works than anyone else, but the EU isn't a series "about old people." The X-wing books were literally about all of the Rogue/Red Squadron pilots except Luke. The NJO books, and the works just preceding them, were about the next generation of heroes and leaders. Most of your movie favorites were still around--still fighting and taking the lead role in many books even--but it wasn't just about them anymore. More importantly, their perspective isn't necessary to the retelling of galactic history. The Jedi Academy books told the story of Luke struggling to train his first class of Jedi recruits while facing off against a long-dead Sith master. Years later, those same events were told again from the perspective of Corran Horn, a EU-only character that came out of the X-wing series, and then again from Mara Jade's perspective. In terms of understanding Star Wars "history," reading any one of those perspectives gives you all of the broad strokes you need, and even reading none of them you can still understand later works.

The EU basically did everything the last trilogy did, but more gradually, with much more nuance. Leia succeeded Mon Mothma as head of state, became a Jedi, retired, trained apprentices and political proteges who went on to have their own careers, and by the time I stopped keeping up she was basically a retired statesman and (I think) semi-active Jedi who nonetheless kept getting involved in galactic events. Han went from rogue, rebel, and General-mostly-as-a-reward-for-surviving-important-battles to a prominent and occasionally respectable figure and sometimes legitimate military leader. Their children became Jedi and soldiers, and one even became a head of state. Luke trained new Jedi, who eventually became masters who trained their own apprentices. Towards the end, he was basically Yoda--the eminent and respected leader of the council, who delegated most decisions and day-to-day-tasks. These guys keep appearing because we also care about the story of this family, but in terms of the story of the galaxy far, far away, the EU was already passing the torch on to many new, younger heroes.

All of this underscores the last major flaw in your reasoning: That the canon was holding anything back in terms of reaching a younger, more female audience. The EU had strong female characters, prominent romance subplots--all the stereotypically "girl-friendly" stuff you saw in the sequel trilogy--to the point that even before the prequel trilogy came out, I knew almost as many girls who followed the books and guys. More than that, the EU integrated this in such a way that the stereotypically older, more male fans all stayed on board. If you look at criticisms of the recent movies you see some aimed at diversity in general, and a ton aimed at the jarring "replacement" of the old heroes and the soulless aping of their character arcs for the apparent goal of recreating the magic of the original, but for a more diverse audience. In contrast, if you look at the most controversial works of the EU, the criticisms varied much more wildly. You pretty much never saw complaints about Luke Skywalker having romance subplots to appeal to the girls, or Jaina Solo being an unrealistic grrl power badass, because the EU was actually already doing a much better job of adapting to court the demographics that you argue it needs to be scrapped for.

This all goes back to my original point--if Disney had kept the EU and just put out a few bad movies, or if they had scrapped it all, but seeded it with decent movies that spurred anticipation for a rich and complex new extended canon, then I doubt it would have lost money or fans, even if there was controversy or criticism. As it stands though, pulling the EU during the trilogy means that--correctly or not--many fans see the trilogy as Disney's announced template of what the new EU will be, and that is generating zero enthusiasm. It's not even that people will stop paying for Star Wars as a protest, as you put it, for Heir to the Empire not being canon anymore. Rather, the fact that that universe, and all of the stories and characters folks have become in invested in over the years, has effectively come to the end of its story means that folks have reached a natural stopping point. The new EU is effectively a new and distinct story, and fans will have to decide whether that story is one they want to start following. Unfortunately, the last few trailers sucked.

[Rodin]

I'm also in agreement with Fyraltari. I think TLJ had some big wierd problems, but was fundamentally both trying and succeeding to be something better than the others in the sequel trilogy. I liked Nobody Rey, Grumpy Luke, and Kill Him Off Because He's Not Worth Keeping Snoke.

Add me into this group as well.

I've found myself in disagreement with a lot of the commonly accepted flaws with the sequel trilogy. When I read a disparaging description of Kylo Ren, I think "Yes, and...?" He's supposed to be a pale shadow of Vader. If they had followed up on that better in Rise (instead of randomly bringing back Palpatine) there would have been a really cool character arc. As is he's still the best thing in the sequels.

Grumpy Luke is the only form of the character that makes sense to me. He has Anakin's anger issues - that we see on multiple occasions in the OT. He learned to become a Jedi at an even later age than Anakin, and Anakin was too old. His training was hugely abbreviated from the training we see other Jedi get - from kindergarten to adulthood for standard Jedi. Luke got what...a few months? A year or two at the outside?

So, he's undertrained but gets through by being awesome. Cool. Then what? He tries to start his own school, with very little training. While he's doing this all his good works slowly fall apart as the Empire starts rising from the ashes. Then he thinks he's making things worse by training Ben Solo, then compounds his error by having an Anakin-style fit of impulsiveness.

All of that leads to Grumpy Luke. It fits his story arc. It's a good twist narratively - the hero of the former age isn't going to save you. Yoda helps those who help themselves and all that.

Rey finding out she's a nobody is similar. She thinks she's special because she's the scion of a great Jedi - Luke or Leia or somebody important. It's the dream of a girl who grew up powerless in poverty. Finding out her parents were nobody is a harsh reality check that leads to character conflict and development. It sets up Rey leaning towards the Dark Side. Finding out she's special because she herself is important is totally compatible with the Star Wars message.

-----

The problem the sequel trilogy has is that they never wrote any of this out beforehand. As a result, the execution is messy and Abrams abandons it wholesale in Rise. Add in a secondary cast with nothing to do and you wind up with a very flawed set of movies.

[lowfyr]