Rogue Squadron Movie! (and I guess a bunch of other stuff)

[druid91]

I'll take that bet. Here's a list of all old canon Star Wars novels I've read and my opinions about them (very simplified opinions, and I had to reign myself in from really trashing the worst of the worst). Not listed are ebook novellas, young adult books, and books I have not read - warning, it's still a bit long.

Spoiler: Don't say I didn't warn you.

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The Old Republic era

The Old Republic: Revan by Drew Karpyshyn bad

The Old Republic: Deceived by Paul S. Kemp bad

Red Harvest by Joe Schreiber bad

The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance by Sean Williams bad

The Old Republic: Annihilation by Drew Karpyshyn bad

Knight Errant by John Jackson Miller forgettable

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction by Drew Karpyshyn good

Darth Bane: Rule of Two by Drew Karpyshyn good

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil by Drew Karpyshyn good

Rise of the Empire era

Darth Plagueis by James Luceno forgettable

Darth Maul: Saboteur by James Luceno forgettable

Cloak of Deception by James Luceno bad

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter by Michael Reaves bad

Rogue Planet by Greg Bear bad

Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn good

The Approaching Storm by Alan Dean Foster forgettable

Jedi Trial by David Sherman and Dan Cragg bad

Republic Commando: Hard Contact by Karen Traviss forgettable

Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover bad

Republic Commando: Triple Zero by Karen Traviss forgettable

Republic Commando: True Colors by Karen Traviss forgettable

MedStar I: Battle Surgeons by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

MedStar II: Jedi Healer by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart bad

Labyrinth of Evil by James Luceno bad

Order 66: A Republic Commando Novel by Karen Traviss forgettable

Imperial Commando: 501st by Karen Traviss good

Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight by Michael Reaves good

Coruscant Nights II: Street of Shadows by Michael Reaves good

Coruscant Nights III: Patterns of Force by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

The Last Jedi by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

The Paradise Snare by A. C. Crispin good

The Hutt Gambit by A.C. Crispin good

Tales from the Empire (anthology) good

Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of ThonBoka by L. Neil Smith forgettable

Death Star by Michael Reaves and Steve Perry bad

Han Solo at Stars' End by Brian Daley good

Han Solo's Revenge by Brian Daley good

Han Solo and the Lost Legacy by Brian Daley forgettable

Rebel Dawn by A. C. Crispin good

Death Troopers by Joe Schreiber bad

Rebellion era

Tales from the New Republic (anthology) good

Shadow Games by Michael Reaves and Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff good

Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina (anthology) good

Scoundrels by Timothy Zahn good

Allegiance by Timothy Zahn good

Choices of One by Timothy Zahn good

Splinter of the Mind's Eye by Alan Dean Foster bad

Tales of the Bounty Hunters (anthology) good

Shadows of the Empire by Steve Perry good

Tales from Jabba's Palace (anthology) good

The Mandalorian Armor by K. W. Jeter bad

Slave Ship by K. W. Jeter bad

Hard Merchandise by K. W. Jeter bad

The Truce at Bakura by Kathy Tyers bad

New Republic era

Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor by Matthew Stover bad

X-Wing: Rogue Squadron by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: Wedge's Gamble by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: The Krytos Trap by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: The Bacta War by Michael A. Stackpole good

X-Wing: Wraith Squadron by Aaron Allston good

X-Wing: Iron Fist by Aaron Allston good

X-Wing: Solo Command by Aaron Allston good

The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverton bad

Tatooine Ghost by Troy Denning good

Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn good

Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn good

The Last Command by Timothy Zahn good

X-Wing: Isard's Revenge by Michael A. Stackpole bad

Jedi Search by Kevin J. Anderson bad

Dark Apprentice by Kevin J. Anderson bad

Champions of the Force by Kevin J. Anderson bad

I, Jedi by Michael A. Stackpole good

Children of the Jedi by Barbara Hambly bad

Darksaber by Kevin J. Anderson bad

X-Wing: Starfighters of Adumar by Aaron Allston good*

Planet of Twilight by Barbara Hambly bad

The Crystal Star by Vonda N. McIntyre bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Before the Storm by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Shield of Lies by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The Black Fleet Crisis: Tyrant's Test by Michael P. Kube-McDowell bad

The New Rebellion by Kristine Kathryn Rusch bad

Ambush at Corellia by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Assault at Selonia by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Showdown at Centerpoint by Roger MacBride Allen bad

Specter of the Past by Timothy Zahn good

Vision of the Future by Timothy Zahn good

Survivor's Quest by Timothy Zahn good

New Jedi Order era

The New Jedi Order: Vector Prime by R. A. Salvatore bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I: Onslaught by Michael A. Stackpole bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin by Michael A. Stackpole bad

The New Jedi Order: Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial by James Luceno bad

The New Jedi Order: Agents of Chaos II: Jedi Eclipse by James Luceno bad

The New Jedi Order: Balance Point by Kathy Tyers bad

The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory I: Conquest by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory II: Rebirth by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: Star by Star by Troy Denning bad

The New Jedi Order: Dark Journey by Elaine Cunningham bad

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream by Aaron Allston bad

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand by Aaron Allston bad

The New Jedi Order: Traitor by Matthew Stover bad

The New Jedi Order: Destiny's Way by Walter Jon Williams bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic I: Remnant by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic II: Refugee by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic III: Reunion by Sean Williams and Shane Dix bad

The New Jedi Order: The Final Prophecy by Greg Keyes bad

The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force by James Luceno AAAA Dark Nest I: The Joiner King by Troy Denning bad

Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen by Troy Denning AAAA Dark Nest III: The Swarm War by Troy Denning bad

Legacy era

Legacy of the Force: Betrayal by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines by Karen Traviss bad

Legacy of the Force: Tempest by Troy Denning bad

Legacy of the Force: Exile by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice by Karen Traviss bad

Legacy of the Force: Inferno by Troy Denning bad

Legacy of the Force: Fury by Aaron Allston bad

Legacy of the Force: Revelation by Karen Traviss

Legacy of the Force: Invincible by Troy Denning bad

Crosscurrent by Paul S. Kemp forgettable

Riptide by Paul S. Kemp forgettable

Millennium Falcon by James Luceno good

Fate of the Jedi: Outcast by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Omen by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Abyss by Troy Denning bad

Fate of the Jedi: Backlash by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Allies by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Vortex by Troy Denning bad

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction by Aaron Allston bad

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension by Christie Golden bad

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by Troy Denning bad

X-Wing: Mercy Kill by Aaron Allston forgettable

Crucible by Troy Denning forgettable



*probably my favorite, if only for its 100% nonstop sheer, unadulterated fun.

As far as old canon in the same stretch of time... the bar was on the floor for that, so even if we claim it was better than the sequels (which I am not prepared to admit, if only because I would rather not compare two different flavors of bad), that's hardly saying anything.

Now on that I will agree. Mostly, at least; it was entirely Episode IX which did that, effectively shanghai-ing the other two into its retcon. But still, yeah, you're absolutely on the money there.

ETA:
That got a good chuckle out of me.

Agreed. Of the sequel trilogy, The Last Jedi is the only one I can even respect, because at least it tried to do something new and different. I wasn't a fan of what it tried, but I damn sure like that it tried. That exact same sentiment I also extend to the prequel trilogy as a whole.

Oh, you would be surprised.

I actually enjoyed some of the books you listed as bad. The Crystal Star in particular, even though it's admittedly weird as hell and more star trek than star wars.

Also, as... Questionable as she is, Karen Traviss did pioneer the lore for Mandalorians, even if their current form is significantly altered.

[Trafalgar]

I would like Disney to remaster the original, unaltered trilogy based on a new transfer from the 35mm negatives (not off the 4:3 ratio 1993 laserdisc). I would willingly pay lie $200 for a Blu-ray boxed set.

[Dire_Flumph]

(snipped for brevity)

Good read, I like a lot of the perspective there and I think you summed up in general how I felt about the old EU.

I'm also in agreement with Fyraltari. I think TLJ had some big wierd problems, but was fundamentally both trying and succeeding to be something better than the others in the sequel trilogy. I liked Nobody Rey, Grumpy Luke, and Kill Him Off Because He's Not Worth Keeping Snoke.

I don't hate the Last Jedi, and I've tried to see more of what its fans love about it, but I just don't see the new, daring direction the film gets hailed for.

It's hard for me to see Rey as "No One" when she was already made into a capital "C" Chosen One. At that point, it doesn't matter to me if her parents were junk traders or the lost Kenobi heir, that's just not No One to me, no matter what her background is. If the hero of the story had been Finn or Rose, that would have been a more daring change.

I also don't have a problem with Grumpy, failed Luke (and I think Hamill is an underrated actor, if there's anything that tries to sell the character it's him), I just think that the sequel movies in general do a bad job of moving the original cast forward. I get no sense from either Han, Leia or Luke of a life lived, or what they accomplished. I don't need them to be the focus, and I don't need chunks of the film devoted to exposition, but I'd like to have a little sense of what they did in the last few decades. Even small things like a lightsaber clipped to Leia's belt, a mention of Luke's departed wife, or the inference that Han made an attempt to be a public figure in the New Republic would have gone a long way. It's not a perfect comparison, but something like how "The Legend of Korra" handled it is how I'd point to doing it right. His sacrifice at the end also feels less like character arc stuff than an easy way out, especially since we know he'll just be a Force Ghost in the next movie.

And yeah, Snoke was an uninteresting mystery box in TFA. But he was also serving a narrative purpose, as our other antagonists were Hux, who was consistently portrayed as an idiot (yes, mad dogs have a purpose, but it's not being put in charge of your fleet), Ren, who showed little canniness or menace and was ruled almost wholly by his spiteful whims, and Phasma, who was a dirty coward. Snoke at least seemed like he could have been a serious threat if developed properly. If they were going to kill him, they needed someone to take his place as the overall threat. Ideally, that would have been Ren, but the film doesn't do that. They should have closed the door on a Redemption arc, had him fully take on the mantle of a Dark Lord, and show him as a menace to be taken seriously, not a teenager who yells at people and tosses them around with the Force when things don't go his way. We get the "Let the Past Die" quote, but Ren is repeatedly shown to be unable to do just that, and I feel that should have been his arc in Last Jedi.

I think there are some good pieces in place with the Last Jedi. A movie where Rey realizes that who she can become doesn't rely on where she came from, Poe growing from a hotshot pilot to a responsible leader, Finn finding a cause to fight for and Ren going from callous youth to Galactic Threat sounds like a good middle section of a trilogy to me. I just don't feel that any of that was done well here, and I envy people who feel that they got the movie I described.

Oh and I love Rose. I just wish the last two movies had found something more to do with her.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I, Jedi by Michael A. Stackpole good

My favorite, just for the description of an apocalyptic-level hangover.

"Actually, I didn't even feel that good."

[Sapphire Guard]

Is it worth making a pinned thread of some kind for our various Star Wars related disputes?

The weird part of Rey Nobody is, Finn is nobody too, but no one cares, in or out of universe.

[Bohandas]

Ain't no problem. In fact the idea that she just had to be a Skywalker, Kenobi or Palpatine was among the worst reactions to TFA.

She didn't have to be somebody we knew, just someone with an appropriately mystical background. The only way nobody would work is if it were literal like in the case of Darth Vader, and TLJ even screwed that possibility up.

[Peelee]

She didn't have to be somebody we knew, just someone with an appropriately mystical background. The only way nobody would work is if it were literal like in the case of Darth Vader, and TLJ even screwed that possibility up.

Ben Kenobi wasn't from a mystical background. Neither was Qui-Gon Jinn. Nor Yoda. Nor Kanan, nor Ezra, nor Palpatine, nor Maul, nor any other Force user we saw on-screen. Luke and Leia were literally the only ones who had their background as important on-screen.

So no, she most emphatically did not have to be someone with an appropriately mystical background. I categorically reject that claim. Her "background" was nothing more than blatant pandering.

[Hopeless]

I would have preferred they had revealed she was Phasma's niece from her novel.
Then reveal she's Schmi Skywalker's great grand daughter just not descended from Anakin.
She'd be a Skywalker and they wouldn't have to mess it up that badly...
Sadly.

I actually didn't mind her being nobody, just wish they planned the trilogy properly instead of whatever they were thinking about!

[Fyraltari]

She didn't have to be somebody we knew, just someone with an appropriately mystical background. The only way nobody would work is if it were literal like in the case of Darth Vader, and TLJ even screwed that possibility up.

Why? Why is a mystical background needed? Do people need to be royalty with a lineage chock-full of heroes to be heroes in turn?

[Dire_Flumph]

Is it worth making a pinned thread of some kind for our various Star Wars related disputes?

It's like a cancer, it would just spread. Only cure is to kill the host.

The weird part of Rey Nobody is, Finn is nobody too, but no one cares, in or out of universe.

Or Rose. Finn has a cool space hero backstory. Rose feels like they grabbed a background extra and said "Hey, wanna be in our movie?". I love that.

[Fyraltari]

The weird part of Rey Nobody is, Finn is nobody too, but no one cares, in or out of universe.

In TFA she has something of an arc of learning to accept that her family is never going to go back to get her. People latched on that and assumed that her family not being shown or named was to prepare a reveal rather than because they were irrelevant to the story.

[warty goblin]

In TFA she has something of an arc of learning to accept that her family is never going to go back to get her. People latched on that and assumed that her family not being shown or named was to prepare a reveal rather than because they were irrelevant to the story.

There was also, unless I'm misremembering, a bit where Kylo decides she's worth worrying about only after somebody says she's a girl from Jakku. Like that specific combination means something.

Since at that point there was no background really given for anybody, I thought it was some hint of a past connection between Rey and Kylo, more than about her family in particular.

[Fyraltari]

There was also, unless I'm misremembering, a bit where Kylo decides she's worth worrying about only after somebody says she's a girl from Jakku. Like that specific combination means something.

Do you mean this?

Spoiler

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Because while you could read that as meaning he knows of a particular girl, you can just as easily read it as him still being angry.

[Bohandas]

Oh no, the multi-billions worth corporation acts soullessly without any care for creativity or art. I am shock.

There's enough people here talking about them like they're not jerks that I think it bears mentioning

[The Glyphstone]

Is it worth making a pinned thread of some kind for our various Star Wars related disputes?

The weird part of Rey Nobody is, Finn is nobody too, but no one cares, in or out of universe.

We don't appear to have fulfilled the requirements of Holdo's Law yet (as the length of a Star Wars thread increases, the probability of an argument about hyperspace ramming approaches unity). So there's still a bit of life left to bleed from its corpse.

[Xyril]

I actually enjoyed some of the books you listed as bad. The Crystal Star in particular, even though it's admittedly weird as hell and more star trek than star wars.

I did as well. I think part of why I disagreed with Peelee on some of NJO (though to be fair, I think the average quality of the works was lower than those from earlier eras) is that there was enough of a shift in tone/themes that it felt a bit "not Star Wars," but it wasn't enough to bother me. However, I can see how between that aspect and the lower quality other folks would judge them more harshly.

Also, as... Questionable as she is, Karen Traviss did pioneer the lore for Mandalorians, even if their current form is significantly altered.

I actually like how they handled the Mandalorians. Traviss's treatment felt a little fan-fictiony to me. Don't get me wrong, I think her works in general were of solid professional quality, but when it comes to her favored characters, she seemed to try a bit too hard to make them badass heroes. As a mercenary people with their own sense of honor, they were interesting characters who could be dropped in as formidable opponents to the Jedi where the story required, and you had some interesting individual characters that ran the spectrum of morality--they were definitely a net positive to the EU. However, in Traviss's works, I always felt like she was trying too hard to paint the Mandalorian characters as good guys, even when the particular Mandalorians in that particular story were at best amoral mercenaries doing bad things for bad people.

The Disney adaptation kept the good stuff, but actually seems to recognized that you can have an honorable warrior people who make good, compelling characters even if a lot of them are generally bad guys.

So no, she most emphatically did not have to be someone with an appropriately mystical background. I categorically reject that claim. Her "background" was nothing more than blatant pandering.

What annoyed me was how blatantly they were paralleling Luke's story on this. A lot off people seemed to think that they were retconning the earlier movies, but I think it was all planned and deliberate. They just wanted to replicate not only the special background thing, but even the part where someone directly lies to her about it, and then later explains how he wasn't really lying. Except this time, it didn't quite work as well. Darth Vadar giving the reveal to Luke came at a climactic moment, and Obi-Wan explaining how he told the truth from a certain perspective later had an emotional impact because nobody expected him to deceive Luke. The reveal to Rey seemed a bit... diluted, I guess? It didn't feel like it was timed for a moment when everything was coming together, and the fact that Kylo Ren misled her didn't feel like a surprise or a betrayal in anyway. My main reaction was that I wished I had split this up into two separate spaces on my OT bingo card.

[Vinyadan]

Why would somebody want that? I don't particularly enjoy the MCU, but its existance costs me nothing and clearly brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people. So I take the radical and super laborious step of... not watching them.

Spoiler

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I'm also in agreement with Fyraltari. I think TLJ had some big wierd problems, but was fundamentally both trying and succeeding to be something better than the others in the sequel trilogy. I liked Nobody Rey, Grumpy Luke, and Kill Him Off Because He's Not Worth Keeping Snoke.

I really liked the Rey - Kylo - Luke part. I didn't really like the rest. Nobody Rey was a good idea imho too. Snoke should probably never have existed; we already had the evil master monk thing with Vader and the Emperor, five films of it. I think that the series in general could have used a smaller cast and, if it wanted representation, simply go for [insert ethnicity] Rey and/or Kylo, although I think both Driver and Ridley were fantastic, and hope to see more of Daisy (Adam Driver already has a solid career).

[warty goblin]

Spoiler

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I don't get it. Story of my life...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by warty goblin
I don't get it. Story of my life...

Same here. I'm not sure what a vaguely sad-faced Thanos is meant to convey.

.

[Dire_Flumph]

Same here. I'm not sure what a vaguely sad-faced Thanos is meant to convey.

I think because he wanted to destroy the MCU? (Replying to the question "why would somebody want that?")

[Vinyadan]

It's a scene from one of the movies which turned into a meme (and, retrospectively, why did I expect that someone who hasn't watched the movie would get it? Highly illogical!)

The memefied scene in question: https://i.postimg.cc/8C9tCJBz/u-http...s-quoracdn.jpg

The joke was about a mix of the "what did it cost" part ("I don't particularly enjoy the MCU, but its existance costs me nothing") and Thanos being sad because Warty Goblin won't watch his movie.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Vinyadan
It's a scene from one of the movies which turned into a meme (and, retrospectively, why did I expect that someone who hasn't watched the movie would get it? Highly illogical!)

Well, I've watched those movies a disturbing number of times, but I didn't get it either.

But then, I didn't know it was a meme.

Originally Posted by Rodin
Add me into this group as well.

I'm pretty much on this vibe as well. I haven't read all of Xyril's dissertation, but generally agreed with what I skimmed over.

As for Peelee's extremely long list of books and reactions, I think we can agree that Labyrinth of Evil was dreck and Crystal Star was even worse. I'm much more positive about Karen Traviss' books, even though she's extremely anti-Force and anti-Jedi, but that works when you're writing Mandos and clone commandos. Traviss' experience as an embedded journalist really comes through, which gives her books a much greater depth of verisimilitude than the typical churned-out Star Wars novel.

For my part, I found the old Lando trilogy rather light and fluffy, but still enjoyable, and I'll always love the original Han Solo trilogy. Bollux and Blue Max were a great droid pair, and I wish we could've seen more like them instead of endlessly shoehorning R2 and 3PO into narratives where they don't really add anything. Fortunately the last couple movies have tried to give us different droids (with success varying by taste) and I hope we'll see more creative droids in the next round of films. Rogue Squadron itself will probably be heavy on the astromechs, but after that the galaxy's the limit.

.

[warty goblin]

It's a scene from one of the movies which turned into a meme (and, retrospectively, why did I expect that someone who hasn't watched the movie would get it? Highly illogical!)

The memefied scene in question: https://i.postimg.cc/8C9tCJBz/u-http...s-quoracdn.jpg

The joke was about a mix of the "what did it cost" part ("I don't particularly enjoy the MCU, but its existance costs me nothing") and Thanos being sad because Warty Goblin won't watch his movie.

I actually did watch Infinity War and Endgame. Infinitely War was fun because it was the heroes running around having all their usual emotional epiphanies, then Thanos just doesn't care and wrecks them. Since I kinda burned out on that arc about 3/4 through Iron Man 1, watching it subverted one face punch at a time was rather enjoyable.

Endgame was much less interesting. Partly because the whole nostalgia tour wasn't really very nostalgic for me, since I've only seen bits of Avengers 1, and none if Age if Ultron. Mostly though because I pretty quickly cottoned on the this wasn't part 2 of a weird and status quo breaking epic (not that I really expected that), it was part 2 of an extra long but very standard superhero movie, with an unusually dark middle act, and a couple people leaving the cast at the end. Fun, but didn't leave much more of an impression than any of the other Marvel movies I've seen.

[Xyril]

Since I kinda burned out on that arc about 3/4 through Iron Man 1, watching it subverted one face punch at a time was rather enjoyable.

Could you go more into what you mean by this? I've read a decent amount of MCU criticism, but it sounds like your reasons for disliking it are different from the main camps I've seen, and I think it would be interesting to hear a new take.

[Dienekes]

I really liked the Rey - Kylo - Luke part. I didn't really like the rest. Nobody Rey was a good idea imho too. Snoke should probably never have existed; we already had the evil master monk thing with Vader and the Emperor, five films of it. I think that the series in general could have used a smaller cast and, if it wanted representation, simply go for [insert ethnicity] Rey and/or Kylo, although I think both Driver and Ridley were fantastic, and hope to see more of Daisy (Adam Driver already has a solid career).

I'm a bit torn, because a lot of TLJ I like the concepts presented, but not always how they got there.

Take Grumpy Luke. I can totally get behind Grumpy Luke. Honestly, Grumpy Luke is the only reasonable response as to why he decided to just abandon the galaxy in the stupid star map thing back in the last movie.

I just don't think the fall of Luke into Grumpy Luke makes any sense. This is Luke Skywalker, the guy that when he found out the greatest villain in the galaxy was his father risked everything for a chance to redeem him. His first lines to the Emperor were basically: There's still good in my dad, and I came here willingly knowing we're all gonna die here.

And he succeeds. He is rewarded for his faith in his family. So, by the laws of narrative he should double down on this perception.

So with that in mind, he is now leading his new Jedi order and finds his relative may fall to the Dark Side. Wouldn't it make way more sense that he did not pull out a lightsaber when he felt evil within Ben? The Luke of the OT would try to redeem this kid first and bring him to the light. That's Luke's whole shtick.

If you wanted to make Grumpy Luke who abandons the galaxy, make it so he tries to bring Ben back to the Light. Have him absolutely fail. Which allows Ben to go on his child murdering rampage. Luke blames himself for the failure and leaves thinking he cannot make it right. That seems blatantly obvious to me.

Meanwhile we have Kylo killing Snoke. I am all for this. Showing our new Vader stepping out of the Emperor's shadow and taking his place as the true villain of the story. That's great. He even offers Rey the chance to join him, with the caveat it involves wiping away all her friends and rebuilding the galaxy in their image. Pure villainy here I'm all for it. But this presents Kylo as the true villain of the story. Which is great. The way he blames Rey for not seeing his vision and belittling her for not wanting to turn evil with him? That is pure abusive boyfriend material coming through. They've made a terrible guy and they've set up what I've jokingly called Emperor Joffrey for the next movie.

I'd be completely down for watching this power mad man-child grabbing all the power he can, wrecking everything in his way in the next movie.

But they don't do that. They redeem him for... some reason. I still am not certain why. And then they make Palpatine the true villain and it goes back to TFA's shtick of copying the OT with half the heart that made the originals good.

Ugh it's all just a mess.

[Peelee]

I'm a bit torn, because a lot of TLJ I like the concepts presented, but not always how they got there.

Take Grumpy Luke. I can totally get behind Grumpy Luke. Honestly, Grumpy Luke is the only reasonable response as to why he decided to just abandon the galaxy in the stupid star map thing back in the last movie.

I just don't think the fall of Luke into Grumpy Luke makes any sense. This is Luke Skywalker, the guy that when he found out the greatest villain in the galaxy was his father risked everything for a chance to redeem him. His first lines to the Emperor were basically: There's still good in my dad, and I came here willingly knowing we're all gonna die here.

And he succeeds. He is rewarded for his faith in his family. So, by the laws of narrative he should double down on this perception.

So with that in mind, he is now leading his new Jedi order and finds his relative may fall to the Dark Side. Wouldn't it make way more sense that he did not pull out a lightsaber when he felt evil within Ben? The Luke of the OT would try to redeem this kid first and bring him to the light. That's Luke's whole shtick.

If you wanted to make Grumpy Luke who abandons the galaxy, make it so he tries to bring Ben back to the Light. Have him absolutely fail. Which allows Ben to go on his child murdering rampage. Luke blames himself for the failure and leaves thinking he cannot make it right. That seems blatantly obvious to me.

Meanwhile we have Kylo killing Snoke. I am all for this. Showing our new Vader stepping out of the Emperor's shadow and taking his place as the true villain of the story. That's great. He even offers Rey the chance to join him, with the caveat it involves wiping away all her friends and rebuilding the galaxy in their image. Pure villainy here I'm all for it. But this presents Kylo as the true villain of the story. Which is great. The way he blames Rey for not seeing his vision and belittling her for not wanting to turn evil with him? That is pure abusive boyfriend material coming through. They've made a terrible guy and they've set up what I've jokingly called Emperor Joffrey for the next movie.

I'd be completely down for watching this power mad man-child grabbing all the power he can, wrecking everything in his way in the next movie.

But they don't do that. They redeem him for... some reason. I still am not certain why. And then they make Palpatine the true villain and it goes back to TFA's shtick of copying the OT with half the heart that made the originals good.

Ugh it's all just a mess.

I didn't realize this until I read your take, but I agree wholeheartedly with that.

[Fyraltari]

I'm a bit torn, because a lot of TLJ I like the concepts presented, but not always how they got there.

Take Grumpy Luke. I can totally get behind Grumpy Luke. Honestly, Grumpy Luke is the only reasonable response as to why he decided to just abandon the galaxy in the stupid star map thing back in the last movie.

I just don't think the fall of Luke into Grumpy Luke makes any sense. This is Luke Skywalker, the guy that when he found out the greatest villain in the galaxy was his father risked everything for a chance to redeem him. His first lines to the Emperor were basically: There's still good in my dad, and I came here willingly knowing we're all gonna die here.

And he succeeds. He is rewarded for his faith in his family. So, by the laws of narrative he should double down on this perception.

So with that in mind, he is now leading his new Jedi order and finds his relative may fall to the Dark Side. Wouldn't it make way more sense that he did not pull out a lightsaber when he felt evil within Ben? The Luke of the OT would try to redeem this kid first and bring him to the light. That's Luke's whole shtick.

Luke's reaction to the suggestion of Leia turning to the Dark Side was to clobber Vader halfway to death. Dude's as good as they get but he has a temper.
And 25 years of people singing your praises, can make anybody start believing their own hype and react aggressively when reality challenges that.

If you wanted to make Grumpy Luke who abandons the galaxy, make it so he tries to bring Ben back to the Light. Have him absolutely fail. Which allows Ben to go on his child murdering rampage. Luke blames himself for the failure and leaves thinking he cannot make it right. That seems blatantly obvious to me.

Isn't that what happened though? He tired to make Ben into a hero, he absolutely failed (peeked into Ben's mind, was tempted to kill him, caught himself but a moment to late). This allowed ben to go on his child murdering rampage and Luke blamed himself (and by extension the whole concept of the Jedi Order) and left thinking he couldn't make it right.

Meanwhile we have Kylo killing Snoke. I am all for this. Showing our new Vader stepping out of the Emperor's shadow and taking his place as the true villain of the story. That's great. He even offers Rey the chance to join him, with the caveat it involves wiping away all her friends and rebuilding the galaxy in their image. Pure villainy here I'm all for it. But this presents Kylo as the true villain of the story. Which is great. The way he blames Rey for not seeing his vision and belittling her for not wanting to turn evil with him? That is pure abusive boyfriend material coming through. They've made a terrible guy and they've set up what I've jokingly called Emperor Joffrey for the next movie.

I'd be completely down for watching this power mad man-child grabbing all the power he can, wrecking everything in his way in the next movie.

But they don't do that. They redeem him for... some reason. I still am not certain why. And then they make Palpatine the true villain and it goes back to TFA's shtick of copying the OT with half the heart that made the originals good.

Ugh it's all just a mess.

Reluctant as I am to give too much credit (well, "credit") to internet nitpickers, it feels like Abrams decided that the fan complaints about Kylo Ren not being threatening enough were right and brought back SW main vilain to make up for it rather than continue to build him up as an antagonist. And, left with no idea what to do with him, defaulted to Vader's arc.

[Zevox]

I've found myself in disagreement with a lot of the commonly accepted flaws with the sequel trilogy. When I read a disparaging description of Kylo Ren, I think "Yes, and...?" He's supposed to be a pale shadow of Vader. If they had followed up on that better in Rise (instead of randomly bringing back Palpatine) there would have been a really cool character arc. As is he's still the best thing in the sequels.

Grumpy Luke is the only form of the character that makes sense to me.

Okay, I don't want to get drawn into another long argument about the film - been in entirely too many in the years since it came out - so I will just say this. We agree on the point about Rey being a nobody - that was the one good thing that I think TLJ did. Mostly because I thought it was overdone and boring for TFA to imply that her parents were somebody important that we'd probably know (Luke, I was assuming at the time), so seeing that tossed out pleased me.

We disagree on everything else, but especially those two parts. Kylo Ren and the handling of Luke are the two worst parts of the sequels by far for me. Kylo does not work as a villain and yet gets treated as the main one, while Luke's story is awful and does not fit his character. At the end of TLJ, the one hope I was holding onto was for a future film to provide some amount of redemption for him, to fix what TLJ had broken. And then it killed him, for absolutely no reason, despite having the perfect excuse not to with that illusion trick, so that could never happen. That's what ultimately killed the sequels for me.

I'm a bit torn, because a lot of TLJ I like the concepts presented, but not always how they got there.

Take Grumpy Luke. I can totally get behind Grumpy Luke. Honestly, Grumpy Luke is the only reasonable response as to why he decided to just abandon the galaxy in the stupid star map thing back in the last movie.

I just don't think the fall of Luke into Grumpy Luke makes any sense. This is Luke Skywalker, the guy that when he found out the greatest villain in the galaxy was his father risked everything for a chance to redeem him. His first lines to the Emperor were basically: There's still good in my dad, and I came here willingly knowing we're all gonna die here.

And he succeeds. He is rewarded for his faith in his family. So, by the laws of narrative he should double down on this perception.

So with that in mind, he is now leading his new Jedi order and finds his relative may fall to the Dark Side. Wouldn't it make way more sense that he did not pull out a lightsaber when he felt evil within Ben? The Luke of the OT would try to redeem this kid first and bring him to the light. That's Luke's whole shtick.

If you wanted to make Grumpy Luke who abandons the galaxy, make it so he tries to bring Ben back to the Light. Have him absolutely fail. Which allows Ben to go on his child murdering rampage. Luke blames himself for the failure and leaves thinking he cannot make it right. That seems blatantly obvious to me.

Meanwhile we have Kylo killing Snoke. I am all for this. Showing our new Vader stepping out of the Emperor's shadow and taking his place as the true villain of the story. That's great. He even offers Rey the chance to join him, with the caveat it involves wiping away all her friends and rebuilding the galaxy in their image. Pure villainy here I'm all for it. But this presents Kylo as the true villain of the story. Which is great. The way he blames Rey for not seeing his vision and belittling her for not wanting to turn evil with him? That is pure abusive boyfriend material coming through. They've made a terrible guy and they've set up what I've jokingly called Emperor Joffrey for the next movie.

I'd be completely down for watching this power mad man-child grabbing all the power he can, wrecking everything in his way in the next movie.

But they don't do that. They redeem him for... some reason. I still am not certain why. And then they make Palpatine the true villain and it goes back to TFA's shtick of copying the OT with half the heart that made the originals good.

Ugh it's all just a mess.

This is almost true for me too. I don't like the concept of "Grumpy Luke" and do think there were other ways you could have gone with the setup from TFA (though I will add that I also think that setup was bad to begin with and not easy to salvage whatever you did with it), but I could see the possibility that it could be done well - it just very much so was not. I don't buy that what we're shown as Luke's story would lead to that result, for the reasons Dienekes mentioned. Luke just giving up on his nephew like that after only one failure just does not jive with the character from the OT in the slightest.

Similarly, Kylo killing Snoke. In a better-written set of films where Kylo was actually becoming a villain who could be taken seriously, that might work. It doesn't because he wasn't, at any point, becoming a better villain. It's not like he was involved in some intense Sith training after the first film to get stronger or more focused or whatever, he's the same character at that point as he was when who lost a duel with Rey when she'd never held a lightsaber before. He clearly doesn't have any respect from the people he supposedly leads in the First Order (either before or after killing Snoke), and only barely has their fear - he's treated more like a child they simply aren't allowed to do anything to stop than someone they tremble in the mere presence of. He's successful only in that throne room, and it feels like that's only because narratively he has to be, or else Rey will suffer/be (re-)captured/die too, not because of who he is and what he can do at that point.

So instead, I also dislike Kylo killing Snoke, since Snoke is legitimately the better villain. Palpatine rip-off or not, he's the only one who accomplishes anything: tricking Rey into coming to him, then pulling Luke's location from her mind. That's legitimately more competence than any other sequel villain ever displays in the first two films. He's also an idiot who didn't hear Kylo moving that lightsaber on his chair's metal armrest to point at him and closed his eyes during that execution to imagine it rather than watch it for absolutely no reason, so he's certainly no Palpatine himself, but he still sets the bar higher than Kylo does.

Also, aside, agree that Kylo being redeemed in Rise is stupid. He had a scene in both TFA and TLJ to emphasize that he did not want redemption - during one of which he murdered his father in cold blood, who also happened to be one of the original series' most beloved heroes. If that's not supposed to be a point of no return emphasizing that this villain, however bad at it he may be, will not be redeemed, I don't know what is.

[Dienekes]

Luke's reaction to the suggestion of Leia turning to the Dark Side was to clobber Vader halfway to death. Dude's as good as they get but he has a temper.
And 25 years of people singing your praises, can make anybody start believing their own hype and react aggressively when reality challenges that.

Yes, he was willing to fight to protect a direct family member. And stopped because he was attacking a direct family member. Kylo is just asleep and "feels eeeeevil."

The issue here is, you have to think up your own reasons as to why Luke is acting as he does. He had 25 years of people singing his praises. He gets aggressive when reality doesn't conform to what he wants.

None of that is in the movie. None of that is implied by the movie. And (though I do not think these should be counted even if they were) none of that is in the background information given leading up and explaining the movie. Where apparently Luke's involvement was downplayed by the New Republic for some stupid reason.

You have to draw the steps to make the character make sense, and especially when those steps make the character act worse than the audience is used to them being, or even more egregiously stupider than we remember them acting then that is a very tough sell.

Isn't that what happened though? He tired to make Ben into a hero, he absolutely failed (peeked into Ben's mind, was tempted to kill him, caught himself but a moment to late). This allowed ben to go on his child murdering rampage and Luke blamed himself (and by extension the whole concept of the Jedi Order) and left thinking he couldn't make it right.

Again, Ben was asleep and just felt ominous. So Luke pulled out his lightsaber and wanted to kill his nephew. Now to his credit, he didn't go through with it. But that whole sentence is antithetical to the Luke of the OT. He was tempted to murder a teenager in his sleep. This is horrible.

Now, if he was witnessing Ben performing some dark side juju or torturing another of Luke's students. That is a little better. But he wasn't. He was asleep.

If we want to make Luke abandon everything and go off to twiddle his thumbs on some forgotten planet. We can't just make it a momentary lapse of judgment. It has to be Luke seeing that his whole being, his fundamental method of dealing with the galaxy has failed. Him getting angry at the dark side for a split second is not the fundamental part of Luke. On the contrary it's the part of himself that he had to let go in order for him to get the win against the Emperor at the end of RotJ.

In short his kindness and understanding needed to be the catalyst for his self-destruction, not his already beaten habit of getting angry.

Reluctant as I am to give too much credit (well, "credit") to internet nitpickers, it feels like Abrams decided that the fan complaints about Kylo Ren not being threatening enough were right and brought back SW main vilain to make up for it rather than continue to build him up as an antagonist. And, left with no idea what to do with him, defaulted to Vader's arc.

Honestly, I'm more pessimistic. I kinda think Abrams always wanted Ben to have a redemption arc because giving a visual spit shine to other better works is kinda what he does. But if you have some quote to prove me wrong I'd accept it.

This is almost true for me too. I don't like the concept of "Grumpy Luke" and do think there were other ways you could have gone with the setup from TFA (though I will add that I also think that setup was bad to begin with and not easy to salvage whatever you did with it), but I could see the possibility that it could be done well - it just very much so was not. I don't buy that what we're shown as Luke's story would lead to that result, for the reasons Dienekes mentioned. Luke just giving up on his nephew like that after only one failure just does not jive with the character from the OT in the slightest.

That's a different debate, whether TFA was a good starting point to the series. Personally, I think no. In my opinion *almost* everything that TLJ gets blamed for as problematic comes directly from TLJ.

The legacies of the heroes ruined? That came from TFA.
Han's arc was learning to fight for others before himself, emotionally mature and start a healthy relationship with Leia. He has reverted back to his smuggling days and apparently was a bad father.

Leia's arc was restarting the New Republic restoring good governance to the galaxy. Apparently the New Republic is already so bad that she has to abandon ties with them before the movie starts to act as her own weird pseudo-war. It is then destroyed mid-way through the movie.

Luke's arc was learning how important he could be in the galaxy, not just some moisture farmer so far away from everything. He masters himself, his emotions, redeems his father and is set to restart the New Jedi Order. He has abandoned all of his responsibilities, his new order has been slaughtered, he trained the new Vader, and is pulling a Yoda despite the fact his side hadn't lost yet like Yoda's had.

The Holdo maneuver breaks how Hyperspace is supposed to work?

Han hyperspaced out of a ship which is supposed to cause huge gravity issues and is why ships don't jump straight into hyperspace while on a planet. And then he uses hyperspace to go through Starkiller Base shield and pull out of it again. Hyperspace already got broke.

I did not then, and do not now understand why people thought that movie was good.

So instead, I also dislike Kylo killing Snoke, since Snoke is legitimately the better villain. Palpatine rip-off or not, he's the only one who accomplishes anything: tricking Rey into coming to him, then pulling Luke's location from her mind. That's legitimately more competence than any other sequel villain ever displays in the first two films.

I'll challenge that. Hux is the most accomplished villain in the two movies he appears in.

He is the one that lead the Starkiller Base program. He is the one that literally DESTROYED the New Republic and their fleet in one instant. He is apparently off-screen the one who saves Kylo's ass and gets him off the destroyed Starkiller Base. He's the one who developed a method to follow the Resistance Fleet through hyperspace assuring their victory.

He is frankly the most successful villain in Star Wars after only to Palpatine and Vitiate. Even better characters like Thrawn, Exar Kun, and Bane don't destroy the Republic.

It is very strange that he got used as a joke while also seeming to be the only one on Team Evil who accomplishes anything of note.

The difference between us is of course, that I actually welcome Space Joffrey as a villain. Maybe it's because our current world, but a psychopathic man child put in charge of something very important is terrifying to me. And it's very obvious how destructive that can be. Like Palpy wanted to rule the galaxy. If you want to make a new powerful villain, I would totally see how going the path of one who just enjoys watching it blow to pieces could be done very well. And I think Adam Driver is a good enough actor to pull it off.

[Xyril]

The issue here is, you have to think up your own reasons as to why Luke is acting as he does. He had 25 years of people singing his praises. He gets aggressive when reality doesn't conform to what he wants.

I don't think I realized before, but this might be what bothers me the most about the current state of things. Like I said before, EU stuff enhanced the flagship canon works, but it was never necessary to understand it. You could have skipped all the books and the The Clone Wars series, and the Prequel Trilogy would have still worked would have worked no worse than they did.

This trilogy is obviously incompatible with Legends canon, but even with that gone, it only really fits together with the prior trilogies if audiences are willing to go out of their way to make the right inferences in that empty space the EU used to occupy. And even that is a stretch, because even within the trilogy, it feels like each work was written by three different teams who coordinated in the big details, but didn't share notes at all in order to get on the same page for more subtle things (like character development.)

The difference between us is of course, that I actually welcome Space Joffrey as a villain. Maybe it's because our current world, but a psychopathic man child put in charge of something very important is terrifying to me. And it's very obvious how destructive that can be. Like Palpy wanted to rule the galaxy. If you want to make a new powerful villain, I would totally see how going the path of one who just enjoys watching it blow to pieces could be done very well. And I think Adam Driver is a good enough actor to pull it off.

I didn't dislike his performance (and after seeing more of him, blame the bad bits 100% of the script/directing.) Also, I didn't dislike the volatile, capricious sort of villain he was. My issue is how incongruous it was too see a villain that was so different from Vader being shoehorned in to fit so many of Vader's big story notes, right down to the death is redemption thing. Plus, it seemed like killing Han was meant to mirror killing Obi-Won, who was the closest thing to a father Anakin had, except nobody on the creative team realized that the differences in contexts would make audiences read those scenes entirely differently. A lesser not-Vader desperately trying to fill his grandfather's metal shoes could have been a great antagonist in his own right; watching him trying--with wildly varying levels of success--to follow Vader's path could have been an amazing new story. Watching him do so terribly, but then seeing the universe itself apparently railroading him into that path and validating his "successes" was just weird, and uncomfortable.