Rogue Squadron Movie! (and I guess a bunch of other stuff)

[Peelee]

Hypothetical questionfor the anti-Grumpy Luke crowd.

Special Edition episode 8 comes out, and when we get to the part of "I saw darkness in his mind", we see a petulant Ben Solo standing over a bisected baby yoda (Grogu), lightsaber in dream-ben's hand. Perhaps with a few explanatory scenes from kylo's perspective of the academy, and Grogu previously making Ben feel like he's not living up to his heritage, and/or being the mischievous kid who's barely aged since we saw him with Mando.

Would that, in part, redeem the idea that Luke took measures that got out of hand?

No, and offhand I can't think of a thing that would redeem, even in part, what Luke did. It was ridiculous no matter how you slice it.

[Sapphire Guard]

Honestly, that would be worse. "He killed all my apprentices...but the death of the cute one was unforgiveable."

[dancrilis]

To make Luke's story in TLJ make more sense...

I think the problem was not the make more sense element and more that this isn't want anyone wanted element.
I don't know if anyone ever after watching the original trilogy was rooting for the story be 'lets have Luke Skywalker be an old bitter angry man who has given up on the universe after failing at everything'.

That could be a fine story and done well in a number of ways, but it isn't a story that I imagine anyone ever wanted regardless of how well it was done.
Sure doing it badly makes in worse but the basic premise was an issue no matter how well it was done.

If they actually wanted a subversion they could have went with Evil Luke (in a battle with the spirit of the emperor for decades or somesuch) - play on Mark Hamill's talents for villainy and have him return to help only for his divided focus let Palpatine/The Dark Side take over have that be Episode 8 and then Episode 9 could be the quest to save his soul.
Few people would have rooted for that but I suspect more then for depressed Luke.

[Peelee]

So is anybody reading the High Republic books due in January?

Spoiler: Risk of great shock. Do not open if you have heart problems, are pregnant, or may become pregnant.

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Me.

[Zevox]

I think the problem was not the make more sense element and more that this isn't want anyone wanted element.
I don't know if anyone ever after watching the original trilogy was rooting for the story be 'lets have Luke Skywalker be an old bitter angry man who has given up on the universe after failing at everything'.

That could be a fine story and done well in a number of ways, but it isn't a story that I imagine anyone ever wanted regardless of how well it was done.
Sure doing it badly makes in worse but the basic premise was an issue no matter how well it was done.

Oh, personally, I certainly agree with that. Even if you made the story better, it still wouldn't likely be one I'd want to see. But then I could at least respect it more and hate it less - could honestly say that my dislike of it is strictly a matter of personal taste, not of the film's failings as a story.

Though it is worth saying, clearly "no one" wanting it is an exaggeration, given that some people did like that part of TLJ, even in its current state. You or I may never understand that point of view, but is one that some people have.

[dancrilis]

Oh, personally, I certainly agree with that. Even if you made the story better, it still wouldn't likely be one I'd want to see. But then I could at least respect it more and hate it less - could honestly say that my dislike of it is strictly a matter of personal taste, not of the film's failings as a story.

That is fair.

Though it is worth saying, clearly "no one" wanting it is an exaggeration, given that some people did like that part of TLJ, even in its current state. You or I may never understand that point of view, but is one that some people have.

I am not so sure - yes after the movie (The Last Jedi) was out some people seemed to like it (I am half convinced those people effectively started as an anti-Hatedom) but before the movie came out if you had explained the premise to anyone I am dubious about how many people would have went 'yes that is what we want' at best I could imagine people going 'ok, might be interesting'.
But that might be a failure of imagination on my part.

[Trafalgar]

Hypothetical questionfor the anti-Grumpy Luke crowd.

Special Edition episode 8 comes out, and when we get to the part of "I saw darkness in his mind", we see a petulant Ben Solo standing over a bisected baby yoda (Grogu), lightsaber in dream-ben's hand. Perhaps with a few explanatory scenes from kylo's perspective of the academy, and Grogu previously making Ben feel like he's not living up to his heritage, and/or being the mischievous kid who's barely aged since we saw him with Mando.

Would that, in part, redeem the idea that Luke took measures that got out of hand?

SCENE: A young Ben Solo stands facing a small rock. Luke Skywalker stands next to him. Ben raises his hand toward the rock.

Luke: "Concentrate"

Ben grimaces.

Luke: "Concentrate!"

Ben grunts and starts to sweat profusely.

Luke: "CONCENTRATE!!!!"

The rock lifts one inch off the ground. With a gasp, Ben loses concentration and the rock falls to the ground.

Luke:" Good! You actually made it move today!"

The camera pans over to a laughing Grogu, who is using the force juggle three one ton rocks in the air.




Something like this old episode of In Living Color.

[Hopeless]

Ben has problems with his force training.
Meanwhile Grogu is running around scaring the local wildlife before returning to Ben then sits next to him and falls alseep.
Ben sighs and rests but then something catches his eye.
Behind them all of the crates with supplies has been assembled into a pyramid shape identical to the pile he was trying to assemble with some small rocks.
The stricken looks on the other students and staff who are now staring wondering how they're going to reaasemble the crates so they can access their contents and its almost enough to make Ben laugh.
Luke sighs.
He knows whose actually responsible, but doesn't know why the others don't understand Ben had nothing to do with that!

Spoiler

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My assumption is that Ben didn't kill Grogu.
Of course I also think the ST is complete crap and they should have revealed Snoke infiltrated the New Republic via the cabal mentioned in the Bloodline novel and it was the New Republic that attacked Luke's Temple and Ben went dark in response to this attack.
Luke was incapacitated when he released Ben from being possessed by the Emperor's spirit that possessed the remains of Dath Vader's Sith armor namely his helmet.
But all I can hope now their use of the Thrawn trilogy is used to reveal the Luke in the ST wasn't the OT Luke but a clone made from the hand he lost in ESB and thus explains the complete change in character and also means the OT Luke is still alive and out there somewhere

Anyway best wishes.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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Grogu won't be killed by Kylo, he's too popular or profitable (plus, Rise of Kylo Ren establishes that the temple randomly blew up with lightning, Kylo only killed one person.)

But it will pull the teeth out of the massacre of Luke's school if he survives that massacre too (and if he's elsewhere at the time, then we just have another not-Jedi on a technicality running around, which upsets the balance of power in the ST.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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if he's elsewhere at the time, then we just have another not-Jedi on a technicality running around, which upsets the balance of power in the ST.

And nothing of value was lost.

Jay Sherman is eternally quotable.

[Sapphire Guard]

Doesn't matter if that's true or not, it's the principle. If the stakes are lies, then the next time they present us with stakes, why believe these ones are more honest?

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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Rise of Kylo Ren establishes that the temple randomly blew up with lightning, Kylo only killed one person.

Oh for ****'s sake!

[Peelee]

Doesn't matter if that's true or not, it's the principle. If the stakes are lies, then the next time they present us with stakes, why believe these ones are more honest?

Imean, cheap jokes aside, does it lower the stakes?

Spoiler: The Mandalorian

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We saw more Jedi survive the purge than just Kenobi and Yoda, but that didn't lower the stakes any; none of them could have taken on Vader and the Emperor. Even if Grogu survives, he would not have been able to take on Kylo Ren, Snoke, or the Emperor (again). Did the extra Jedi turning out to have survived from the original purge make you disbelieve the stakes in the ST? I can sure say it didn't for me.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Jedi Purges

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We saw more Jedi survive the purge than just Kenobi and Yoda, but that didn't lower the stakes any; none of them could have taken on Vader and the Emperor. Even if Grogu survives, he would not have been able to take on Kylo Ren, Snoke, or the Emperor (again). Did the extra Jedi turning out to have survived from the original purge make you disbelieve the stakes in the ST? I can sure say it didn't for me.!

Not so much, I'd expect survivors, broken and isolated. But law of diminishing returns, how much smaller Luke's academy is, plus the emphasis on being the Last Jedi, survivors would matter more.

It did bother me in Rebels when Yoda was Force Skyping Ahsoka a bit. It doesn't matter that she's out there, but if he knows she's out there, then that does change the stakes.

[Trafalgar]

From Empire Strikes Back

Obi Wan's Ghost: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.

In Return of the Jedi we of course find out that he means Luke's twin sister Leia. But if there are other, powerful Jedi somewhere else in the Galaxy, why would Luke be the last hope? Why would Yoda mention Leia who has received no training at this point when he can force call Ahsoka Tano?

That's the problem with no one staying dead in the Star Wars universe. I can't wait until Han Solo and Snoke return!

[Peelee]

From Empire Strikes Back

Obi Wan's Ghost: That boy is our last hope.
Yoda: No, there is another.

In Return of the Jedi we of course find out that he means Luke's twin sister Leia. But if there are other, powerful Jedi somewhere else in the Galaxy, why would Luke be the last hope? Why would Yoda mention Leia who has received no training at this point when he can force call Ahsoka Tano?

Because Ahsoka already rejected them.

[Mechalich]

Because Ahsoka already rejected them.

Also, Ahsoka had already failed.

Spoiler: Rebels

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Ahsoka confronts Vader on Malachor. He kills her there despite her best efforts. She's only alive later because Ezra pulled her out of time in the World Between Worlds (exactly how this worked remains unclear). Ahsoka simply doesn't have the capability to redeem Anakin. Her bond with Anakin isn't strong enough.

Yoda (and Obi-Wan, though perhaps to a lesser extent) believed that the only path to success involved redeeming Vader, or at least turning him against the Emperor. They didn't think they could just kill the Emperor outright, at least not after Yoda tried this once and failed (this makes sense, since Yoda doesn't believe that trying something again will produce different results). Only Anakin's children had the potential to do this. It was Anakin's attachments that caused his fall and it was only through his attachments that her could be redeemed. No other Jedi, no matter how awesome, was going to bring down the Empire.

The acceptability of this sort of thinking varies. Personally I happen to think Yoda was rather full of it and many of the failures of the PT Era Jedi Order can be laid right at his tiny feet, but those were his beliefs and he was certainly sincere in them.

[Sapphire Guard]

Can Ahsoka defeat the Emperor? No. Could she train Luke, though? Sure.

Ahsoka is technically not a Jedi, but doesn't do anything differently. Canon keeps trying to sell us that she has philosophical differences, but really the difference is a grudge.

I figured the plan was to get someone close enough to Palps to defeat him, he had to be tempted with the prospect of a potential new apprentice. If Kenobi or Yoda for instance tried that, Palpy wouldn't waste time trying to turn him and would just have him killed.

So they needed someone Palps thinks he can turn, just to get into the same room.

[Mechalich]

Can Ahsoka defeat the Emperor? No. Could she train Luke, though? Sure.

Well sure she could have, but Yoda took up that particular task himself.

Ultimately, we don't know (yet) what Ahsoka was doing between 2 BBY when she gets pulled out of the World Between Worlds and when she reappears. We don't even know how long it took her to get off Malachor, though since Malachor's not exactly a trendy vacation destination one imagines that might have taken a while.

I figured the plan was to get someone close enough to Palps to defeat him, he had to be tempted with the prospect of a potential new apprentice. If Kenobi or Yoda for instance tried that, Palpy wouldn't waste time trying to turn him and would just have him killed.

So they needed someone Palps thinks he can turn, just to get into the same room.

That's plausible. Also, it needed to be someone powerful enough to tempt Palpatine into bothering. Ahsoka's no slouch, certainly, but she probably tops out as a fairly average Jedi Master. She's not part of the Chosen One lineage. If turned she'd be just powerful enough to threaten Palpatine while at the same time not powerful enough to serve as his apprentice and ultimately host (the idea of Palpatine wanting to achieve immortality by transferring his essence being a feature of both continuities at this point).

Spoiler: Mandalorian

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Recent revelations suggest that Grogu, based on his 'high M-count' might also have had the potential to serve in this role, given a century or so.

[Clertar]

That is fair.


I am not so sure - yes after the movie (The Last Jedi) was out some people seemed to like it (I am half convinced those people effectively started as an anti-Hatedom) but before the movie came out if you had explained the premise to anyone I am dubious about how many people would have went 'yes that is what we want' at best I could imagine people going 'ok, might be interesting'.
But that might be a failure of imagination on my part.

I would counter that general audiences have a strong sense of what they feel that they want, but that does not mean that this is actually what they would like in a restricted reading. Two complementary examples: (i) Marvel movies fans didn't want a humourous movie about the Guardians of the Galaxy before it came out, but they largely adored it. (ii) The anti-TLJ Star Wars fans adamantly wanted a course correction of the themes and plot lines, and they ended up largely disliking it even more.

[Vinyadan]

To be honest, I'm not sure that TLJ corrected plot and themes. It's as much of a palette swap of The Empire Strikes Back as VII is a palette swap of A New Hope. The differences from Empire are to make it work with VII.

Both Empire and TLJ start with an evacuation, followed by the hero going to some backwater planet to get trained. As it turns out, the master is trying very hard not to look like a master. The rest of the main cast has to look for help in a place where people are oddly well-dressed, where they find an ally that reveals himself as a traitor and has them imprisoned. The young Jedi has to leave training to save the prisoners, but not before having dealt with a cave and vision of his/her enemy that attest to them being closer than could be assumed. The Jedi gets to where the allies are, doesn't help them, and instead meets the bad guy.

This is where V and TLJ diverge, so that TLJ can be harmonised with VII: since Kylo needs Rey, he chooses her over Snoke. Also, Fin has stuff going on from VII, so he kills Phasma instead of being encased in carbonite. And we need Leia to be the mentor for IX, so Luke has to die.

But then we are back to V, because the ending has to show the Rebellion in a very precarious position.

About the themes... well, what were the themes? To me, it looked like the movie pretended to be saying something to then also say the opposite (Kamikaze Holdo vs no-kamikaze Rose, for example, both plot-concluding moments) without offering a synthesis.

[Rodin]

To be honest, I'm not sure that TLJ corrected plot and themes. It's as much of a palette swap of The Empire Strikes Back as VII is a palette swap of A New Hope. The differences from Empire are to make it work with VII.

Both Empire and TLJ start with an evacuation, followed by the hero going to some backwater planet to get trained. As it turns out, the master is trying very hard not to look like a master. The rest of the main cast has to look for help in a place where people are oddly well-dressed, where they find an ally that reveals himself as a traitor and has them imprisoned. The young Jedi has to leave training to save the prisoners, but not before having dealt with a cave and vision of his/her enemy that attest to them being closer than could be assumed. The Jedi gets to where the allies are, doesn't help them, and instead meets the bad guy.

This is where V and TLJ diverge, so that TLJ can be harmonised with VII: since Kylo needs Rey, he chooses her over Snoke. Also, Fin has stuff going on from VII, so he kills Phasma instead of being encased in carbonite. And we need Leia to be the mentor for IX, so Luke has to die.

But then we are back to V, because the ending has to show the Rebellion in a very precarious position.

About the themes... well, what were the themes? To me, it looked like the movie pretended to be saying something to then also say the opposite (Kamikaze Holdo vs no-kamikaze Rose, for example, both plot-concluding moments) without offering a synthesis.

It's more that Rian Johnson was trying to shock the audience by mirroring Empire and then diverging wildly. The master trying not to look like a master isn't some test of character - Luke genuinely doesn't want to train Rey. Instead of Rey being headstrong and abandoning training in order to help, Luke kicks her out first. Luke doesn't want her to face her own evil - when she does, he's horrified she didn't back away from it (or try to fight it like he did when he killed the Vader vision). The protagonist has an important revelation about their family...which is that Ren is NOT her brother or cousin, they're unrelated and her family is unimportant. The protagonist is menaced by the bad guy...who is summarily executed. The traitor doesn't turn around and help them, he's just a jackass.

Johnson was so interested in swerving the plot all over the place that he forgot to make the whole thing hang together as a cohesive story. There are good bits in there, but you could throw out half the movie and lose nothing.

[Clertar]

To be honest, I'm not sure that TLJ corrected plot and themes.

I didn't make myself clear, sorry. What I meant is that RoS massively corrected plot and themes after TLJ.

After extremely vehement claims for a course correction in the franchise after TLJ, the result of Disney course-correcting because of popular uproar ended up being even more poorly received than the alternative of following what TLJ had established---the leak of the original script from Colin Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates was almost unanimously deemed better than the result of course-correcting to RoS. I see that partly as an example of fans not liking what they had asked for, and at the end of the day probably preferring the alternative.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And partly that people generally don't really know what they want, and suck at articulating what they do want.

[Lurkmoar]

“It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists. It is the job of artists to give the audience what they need.”

-Alan Moore.

That said, there's gonna be friction with executives who want that massive bank, the people who make the movies and the public that views it.

(hm. Don't know if that's the an accurate version of the quote, just the first one I copied after a search)

[Peelee]

“It’s not the job of the artist to give the audience what the audience wants. If the audience knew what they needed, then they wouldn’t be the audience. They would be the artists. It is the job of artists to give the audience what they need.”

-Alan Moore.

That said, there's gonna be friction with executives who want that massive bank, the people who make the movies and the public that views it.

(hm. Don't know if that's the an accurate version of the quote, just the first one I copied after a search)

I sincerely hope that's not an accurate version, because I disagree 100% with it and think it speaks of Supreme arrogance on Moore's part.

[Dienekes]

I sincerely hope that's not an accurate version, because I disagree 100% with it and think it speaks of Supreme arrogance on Moore's part.

Well Moore is a ridiculously arrogant man. Brilliant writer, but definitely arrogant.

I kinda also think he's right in some way. To not use a Star Wars example, if after reading Two Towers for the first time you asked a new fan of Lord of the Rings what they want the answer would probably be something like:


Frodo to destroy the ring and surpass his temptation and go back to live happily in the Shire ever after, and Sméagol to redeem himself.*

This is not what happens and the story is stronger for it.

But on the other hand, if you just gleefully take everything the fan wants and expects without a coherent theme or message behind it you get the Game of Thrones ending.

*actually the book ends with Shelob. So that’s after fans would want Sméagol redeemed. I guess if you ask them a few chapters before the end then.

[Peelee]

Well Moore is a ridiculously arrogant man. Brilliant writer, but definitely arrogant.

I kinda also think he's right in some way. To not use a Star Wars example, if after reading Two Towers for the first time you asked a new fan of Lord of the Rings what they want the answer would probably be something like:


Frodo to destroy the ring and surpass his temptation and go back to live happily in the Shire ever after, and Smeagol to redeem himself.

This is not what happens and the story is stronger for it.

But on the other hand, if you just gleefully take everything the fan wants and expects without a coherent theme or message behind it you get the Game of Thrones ending.

Ahh, the actual arrogance explains it then.

What I meant, though, was that knowing and doing are two very, very different things. You could give Alan Moore complete, detailed, step-by-step instructions on how to perform heart surgery or land a 747, and he would not be able to do those things - at least, not without a lot of time spent practicing and getting to know the details about why some parts matter, why certain actions are important, etc. etc. Artists can absolutely tap into what people didn't even know they wanted, but to claim that if a person knows what they want, they are no longer the audience but the artist... He effectively says "only artists have any idea what they are doing. Also I am an artist, you peasants."

[Fyraltari]

I mean, Moore believes himself to be an actual wizard*, so...

Edit: *and that art and magic are somehow linked because something something creation something I think?

[Bohandas]

I didn't make myself clear, sorry. What I meant is that RoS massively corrected plot and themes after TLJ.

After extremely vehement claims for a course correction in the franchise after TLJ, the result of Disney course-correcting because of popular uproar ended up being even more poorly received than the alternative of following what TLJ had established---the leak of the original script from Colin Trevorrow's Duel of the Fates was almost unanimously deemed better than the result of course-correcting to RoS. I see that partly as an example of fans not liking what they had asked for, and at the end of the day probably preferring the alternative.

It was ill received because they had to spend half movie doing damage control, because the fans had already abandoned them, and perhaps most importantly because a true return to theme, form, and tone was no longer possible - to do that they would have had to scrap the previous two movies entirely.