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  1. - Top - End - #91
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    An analogy is not the same as an example.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    As I said, there are shades of grey...

    the only thing I'm sure about is that the complete ( or almost complete ) lack of remorse is a clear symphtom of Evil.
    I would agree. Even a good person who had very good reasons for killing someone, like a man defending his home and family from an armed robber who broke in, would still feel remorse and wonder if there had been a better way to resolve the situation that wouldn't have involved having to kill someone.

    For the one time murderer who never kills again but forever treasures his memory of the one time he did murder, yeah he probably would still be evil. But I think such a person is an extreme case. Someone who murders usually either commits other crimes or eventually feels sorrow, remorse, etc.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    There is a variety of Good that is total love and acceptance, no matter what.

    A god of such Good might be sad when a mortal commits evil acts, but they still love them and stay with them no matter what - hoping that they will see the light and change.

    The same can also be true of one Good mortal with another Evil mortal. The good mortal can love the evil mortal and be with them whenever needed. They can be unhappy about the evil committed by the evil mortal, and still be there for them whenever needed.

    They can believe that offering their love and friendship without condition and without pressure or condemnation is the only way to set an example and follow the path of good. They hope that by giving such love and support to the evil mortal it will change their heart over time. Maybe it will and maybe it won't.

    This is another kind of good character who can be with an evil character long term.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I know that good and evil characters hate each other and they're always fighting all the time but is it possible that they can get along?
    Characters? Yes.
    Players? Maybe not.

    There's a pretty wide range of Good and Evil. A wide enough range that they can indeed overlap, or even be friends, or love each other.
    Where we go one, we go all.

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Even if that's true, that doesn't mean their interests can never overlap in practice. After all, something that affects me personally is likely to affect the people around me as well and vice versa, so a lot of issues big and small would likely unite the Good and Evil, in a setting where such objective morality existed.
    Of course there will be events that profit both good and evil people. War, for example.

    But, the OP centers around the relationship of Good and Evil. If we focus perhaps on a party of D&D or Shadowrun adventurers of both good and evil persona, then, that's when the selfish nature of evil collides with the more altruistic motives of good.

    Like what to do with treasure: Give some or all of it to struggling townfolk (good), or, keep it for ourselves ignoring the townfolk's problems (evil).

    Plus, it's the wider discussion of the spread of evil and the effects it has on a society. Perhaps like a drug-trade and how it can decimate a community. That's evil because people are profiting from the deleterious effects addiction has on humanity.

    Both playing and running rpgs, I've only seen evil characters as a problem for the party. But, a party of only evil criminals can work depending on the Session 0 guidelines.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    There is a variety of Good that is total love and acceptance, no matter what.

    A god of such Good might be sad when a mortal commits evil acts, but they still love them and stay with them no matter what - hoping that they will see the light and change.

    The same can also be true of one Good mortal with another Evil mortal. The good mortal can love the evil mortal and be with them whenever needed. They can be unhappy about the evil committed by the evil mortal, and still be there for them whenever needed.

    They can believe that offering their love and friendship without condition and without pressure or condemnation is the only way to set an example and follow the path of good. They hope that by giving such love and support to the evil mortal it will change their heart over time. Maybe it will and maybe it won't.

    This is another kind of good character who can be with an evil character long term.
    If this character never tries to stop the evil character from going out and murdering innocent people every night except by "being a good example" to the murderer then no, they aren't in fact a good person. Just a loving and caring person.

    A truly good person would care about the welfare of the innocent victims they don't know as well as the murderer they know and love.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    Like what to do with treasure: Give some or all of it to struggling townfolk (good), or, keep it for ourselves ignoring the townfolk's problems (evil).
    That is only a problem if one or both sides wish to force their behavior on the other side. Such people certainly exist, but in my experience (both in game and in reality) there are a lot of people willing to live and let live. It's certainly a possible reason for conflict but it won't make it a certainty.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If this character never tries to stop the evil character from going out and murdering innocent people every night except by "being a good example" to the murderer then no, they aren't in fact a good person. Just a loving and caring person.

    A truly good person would care about the welfare of the innocent victims they don't know as well as the murderer they know and love.
    No. It means that they have a goal and a strategy in the service of good. It may or may not work.

    If the argument is that you can't be good unless all your attempts at good are successful - the whole discussion is a non starter.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    No. It means that they have a goal and a strategy in the service of good. It may or may not work.

    If the argument is that you can't be good unless all your attempts at good are successful - the whole discussion is a non starter.
    The argument is that to be good you have to try to stop evil from happening. "Being a good example and continuing to provide comfort and support to someone who refuses to stop doing evil" sounds too passive to me to really be considered good. It comes too close to enabling the person's evil.

    You can love someone unconditionally and still take action to stop them from continuing to do evil. Any parent should know this.
    Last edited by Jason; 2020-12-16 at 03:23 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    There are many different types of good characters and many different types of evil characters.

    There are good characters that are self-righteous and judgemental, and others that are tolerant and open-minded.

    There are good characters that are masochist-like wannabe martyrs, and others who won't allow others to take advantage of them under any circumstances.

    There are good characters who are pragmatist enough to work with people they despise, and others who can't compromise.

    There are good characters who are kinda hypocritical and will turn a blind eye and rationalize the behavior of evil people they like, and others who will put them in their **** list after the first infraction...

    There are evil characters who are honorable and loyal to their team, and others who will backstab you even if doing so will screw them badly too...

    There are evil characters who indiscriminately hurt everybody around them, and others who only target a very specific group (a serial killer who tortures and kills only little girls under eight is evil as hell, even if he is nice to everybody else...).

    There are evil characters who are rational, disciplined and brave, and can see the advantages in playing the hero for long periods of time. There are evil characters who can't control themselves and will hurt others all the time.

    There are evil characters who are pragmatical and rational, and will do evil only when it is beneficial to them, and others who do it for the lulz.


    Good characters aren't required to act like Lawful Stupid Paladins or Stupid Good anime characters, and Evil characters aren't required to be mustache-twirling, cackling, insane cartoonish villains...

    So yes, given the right circumstances, evil and good characters can get along for long period of time. Hell, they may not even realize that they have different alignments.

    If Bob is a rabid elf-hater who will kill any elf he encounter so long as he isn't caught, he is Evil, but he probably will look like merely prejudiced against elves to the rest of the party he is dungeon-delving with (they won't actually watch him hurt any elf ever...). And if Johnny the Lawful Good adventurer is a pragmatist, open-minded, tolerant guy he won't leave Bob's party just because the latter talks **** about elves all the time... he will probably think "oh, well, he is kinda racist and prejudiced against elves, but we need him to get out of here alive, so I will better get along with him...".
    Last edited by Clistenes; 2020-12-16 at 01:35 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    The argument is that to be good you have to try to stop evil from happening. "Being a good example and continuing to provide comfort and support to someone who refuses to stop doing evil" sonuds too passive to me to really be considered good. It comes too close to enabling the person's evil.

    You can love someone unconditionally and still take action to stop them from continuing to do evil. Any parent should know this.
    Exactly how proactive someone has to be in going out and preventing the evil acts of others certainly seems to be a major point of contention for the thread. There's certainly real world analogs to the conundrum.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Was it ever stated anywhere that this thread was about D&D? Good and evil do exist in other RPGs, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    You can love someone unconditionally and still take action to stop them from continuing to do evil. Any parent should know this.
    What I pictured when you said that:

    ”Bobby, am I stabbing your sister in the eye?"

    "…no."

    "Then why are
    you stabbing your sister in the eye, rather than following my example?"

    "Because it's fun. I just love the way she screams when I do it."

    Although I haven't seen that particular example, I certainly *have* seen kids do all kinds of

    I find that nearly 100% of humanity engages in actions I find unconscionably evil (even by D&D-style definitions of causing and enjoying harm, let alone 2e evil of "selfishness", which became 3e neutral). I really don't know that it's even humanly *possible* to simultaneously a) care about all of humanity, and b) attempt to stop their every act of evil, given how ubiquitously ever-present that evil is.

    Never mind how parents react to strangers trying to give their kinda morality lessons

    So I'm not sure that this stance is really practical, IRL or in a game. I'm not seeing how to make the logistics work.

    So… I guess I'll have to side with "being an example" and "being ready to help" as a more practical take on that style of good. Unless you care to explain a more practical alternate implementation.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    That is only a problem if one or both sides wish to force their behavior on the other side. Such people certainly exist, but in my experience (both in game and in reality) there are a lot of people willing to live and let live. It's certainly a possible reason for conflict but it won't make it a certainty.
    How does evil and good NOT force their behavior on the other side? You make your argument as if evil doesn't perform as evil. Evil characters express evil traits.

    You talk about "live and let live". Good people trying to live their lives among evil people trying to exploit good people. How do you defend one group working against the other? How is that any sense of "community"? Please explain how people interested in themselves work well with people interested in the greater community?

    You're talking about neutrality which isn't the discussion. The discussion is evil working with good and the difficulty of harmonizing the two.

    What is evil and what is good? What are the differences?

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    It's extremely difficult to get along with evil people because they're selfish and will betray your trust if they have that opportunity. It's what evil is. Deep down all evil people care about is themselves and sometimes they don't even care about that.

    This is why good people, people who care about others, have constant problems with evil. Best case scenario the good people can convince the evil ones to change for the better. Worst case you lock the evil people up before they harm others.
    That is a very poorly understood version of evil. You present any and all evil to be extremely backstab corruption feral animal instinct type characters. That is only an extreme form of CE.

    The mafia hitman care about the family and honors the deals of the ruling member.

    The corrupt politician does whatever he can be any means necessary for his town and himself. He isn't 100% sum-o-wich evil.

    Both of these are evil but can easily work with a party of PCs. The good PCs just don't like them. But they get along.

  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    How does evil and good NOT force their behavior on the other side?
    Regardless of a person's morality, they don't automatically try to make others behave the same way. Take your example of what to do with the party's treasure and the struggling townsfolk, there's nothing stopping the good party members from donating their money and the evil members from keeping theirs. Nor is there anything forcing either side to try and "convert" the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    You make your argument as if evil doesn't perform as evil. Evil characters express evil traits.
    I have plenty of friends who do or say things I don't agree with, as long as they don't try to make me do or say the same we don't have to get into a conflict about it. Some people might think it's their moral duty to force their values on others, but it's not mandatory for any alignment.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    You talk about "live and let live". Good people trying to live their lives among evil people trying to exploit good people. How do you defend one group working against the other? How is that any sense of "community"? Please explain how people interested in themselves work well with people interested in the greater community?
    You argue as if evil people act evil against everyone all the time. An evil party member might be okay with murdering and stealing, but that doesn't mean they will try and murder or steal from the other party members. In my experience, people can overlook a lot of bad qualities in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    You're talking about neutrality which isn't the discussion. The discussion is evil working with good and the difficulty of harmonizing the two.
    Yes, and I'm saying that there's nothing stopping them from working together as long as their goals don't directly conflict (but that's true of good and good or evil and evil, too).

    Again, I'm not saying there can't be conflict because of differing morality and world view, I'm saying it's not a certainty.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    What is evil and what is good? What are the differences?
    Perspective, usually.

    Well, not in D&D. There morality is objectively definable and neatly categorized. Still nothing that says they have to fight, though.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Was it ever stated anywhere that this thread was about D&D? Good and evil do exist in other RPGs, too.
    OP has made a number of threads on the subject of how various media characters map to the D&D alignment axis. It is not unreasonable to assume that was the intent of the initial question (for whatever that is worth).

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoastTaxi View Post
    How does evil and good NOT force their behavior on the other side? You make your argument as if evil doesn't perform as evil. Evil characters express evil traits.
    Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. A character who expresses evil traits is Evil, not vice versa. Someone who tortures enemy soldiers isn't obligated to steal food from orphans or kick puppies.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    OP has made several threads on the subject of how various media characters map to the D&D alignment axis. It is not unreasonable to assume that was the intent of the initial question (for whatever that is worth).
    Yes, I did, and thank you for mentioning me. My whole question was can Good and Evil characters get along and got a number of different answers from so many members in this thread.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    You argue as if evil people act evil against everyone all the time. An evil party member might be okay with murdering and stealing, but that doesn't mean they will try and murder or steal from the other party members. In my experience, people can overlook a lot of bad qualities in others.
    So, this is a perfect example of what I meant by too much focus on whether they're non-backstabby on a personal level. "He's not murdering or stealing from me, so it's not a problem" is a neutral attitude at best, not a good one.

    Which is not to say there aren't various reasons a good and evil character could work together short-term, and even some that would make sense long-term. But if a character thinks "the rest of the world outside the party doesn't really matter", that character's not good-aligned.


    And since a non-murderous example was requested:
    Corrupt cop who plants drugs on people he doesn't like so he can seize their stuff via asset forfeiture. Yeah, I would judge someone for continuing to be that guy's friend after knowing what he does.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-12-16 at 03:59 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Imagine a good person with no power, a level 1 commoner living in a society that is largely CE, the strong do what they want. They are befriended by someone who is evil aligned with a few class levels. Our evil character only cares about his friends and if someone one hurts one of his friends he will inflict as much harm on them and their friends as his relative power allows. Not only is the harm he inflicts on his enemies distinctly disproportionate if he can get away with it, but he takes great joy in the inflicting.

    our good character knows his friend is violent and dangerous and that makes them uncomfortable but they basically never see it so its relatively abstract and allows him to rationalize it away. He hates conflict, and while they are friends they are not equal in any meaningful sense (class, stats, wealth, social rank ect), he would be uncomfortable trying to oppose his more domineering friend. Instead he does good acts where he can, spending his time and effort to the limits of his abilities where it will make a difference rather than squandering it against the force of his society or alienating his friend which harms him but helps no one.

    On top of that the good character has an excellent reason to be grateful to their evil friend, their family of level 1 commoners is protected by the aegis of the evil friends violence. People don't want to mess with him for fear of his friend. People are good at justifying the things they need to stay alive.

    A second factor our evil friend may be less evil than the majority of the people around him making him appear less bad in context. Maybe hes a raider who robs and kills but he only gets vicious if you threaten his friends and family while the other raiders like to torture all the people they raid just because its hilarious to watch them scream.


    Beyond that people don't often think in terms of alignment and are neither vulcans or robots they do not always act with logic. Any battered spouse that still loves their abuser is a clear example of the potential for good and evil to get along.
    Last edited by awa; 2020-12-16 at 04:01 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    So, this is a perfect example of what I meant by too much focus on whether they're non-backstabby on a personal level. "He's not murdering or stealing from me, so it's not a problem" is a neutral attitude at best, not a good one.
    Possibly. But I don't think it's an attitude that'd change their alignment on its own, I don't think a good character (or neutral or evil) have to be 100 percent within their alignments and personally I wouldn't change someone's alignment for overlooking someone's nasty ways.

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Corrupt cop who plants drugs on people he doesn't like so he can seize their stuff via asset forfeiture. Yeah, I would judge someone for continuing to be that guy's friend after knowing what he does.

    And if he stopped doing that 15 years ago ( but never repented and keeps his nice house bought with dirty money )?

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I know that good and evil characters hate each other and they're always fighting all the time but is it possible that they can get along?
    Well, sure.

    Good person wants to stop evil empire from conquering world.

    Evil person wants to stop evil empire from shutting down their human sacrifice cult.

    As long as there is an evil empire they can work together.

    On a less snidely whiplash kind of evil, it would be pretty common. Timothy Someguy is a jerk and really doesn't care about the lives of other people. He works with Evelyn Thatgirl who wants to help everyone because he is being paid by the quest giver. Someguy is Evil, in that he wants the world to be a worse place for others and sets out to do it, but he does it quite legally and it is relatively small evils. He demands payment for saving an orphanage, lets the kid sidekick get injured out of neglect, kills the team horse out of anger when it throws a shoe in the wilds, etc. No one likes him, but he doesn't actually interfere with their goals or do anything truly despicable.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Well, sure.

    A good person wants to stop evil empires from conquering the world.

    An evil person wants to stop the evil empire from shutting down their human sacrifice cult.

    As long as there is an evil empire they can work together.

    On a less snidely whiplash kind of evil, it would be pretty common. Timothy Someguy is a jerk and doesn't care about the lives of other people. He works with Evelyn That girl who wants to help everyone because he is being paid by the quest giver. Someguy is Evil, in that he wants the world to be a worse place for others and sets out to do it, but he does it quite legally and it is a relatively small evil. He demands payment for saving an orphanage, lets the kid sidekick get injured out of neglect, kills the team horse out of anger when it throws a shoe in the wilds, etc. No one likes him, but he doesn't interfere with their goals or do anything truly despicable.
    Are Timothy and Evelyn copyrighted by any chance because I want to add them to my solo game.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    The vegan thing is actually quite a handy reference point. Presumably the vegans in question believe that eating meat is an immoral act on account of it causing suffering, etc., etc. They clearly believe that it is morally correct to refrain from causing said pain. (Their motives for said beliefs , as always, run the gamut). They are surrounded by people like you, me, and OP who happily eat meat without a second thought.

    We, to their moral philosophy, are actively engaging in causing suffering in a manner they have rejected as cruel and unnecessary, largely for our own convenience and pleasure - particularly in a world where many protein alternatives are available.

    But they are surrounded by us carnivores and our system. They can go through their entire lives putting themselves in a societal fringe, or they can make peace with the fact that the best they can do is be good by themselves and tolerate everyone else. How they rationalize that is up to them, but it usually takes the form of tolerance and deciding it’s not a irreconcilable flaw in people like OP. They presumably would have a much harder time dealing with the world if they reacted to meat eating the same way they did to, say, human traffickers.

    I mention this because the interesting thought experiment is if they achieved a moral majority, BMH (and us other carnivores) might be looking at prison sentences for burgers. No doubt in that case they would not tolerate OP, but rather scorn him and declare him evil.

    In contrast, there are parts of the world that forum policy won’t let me specifically name, where the keeping of pre-adolescent boys in sex slavery is more or less treated the like meat eating for us. There’s a few people who might disagree with it, but at most they personally abstain. They certainly have a live and let live attitude towards it happening, and pay no more attention to the matter than a vegan does to his friend eating a steak. We here in the west of course would lock these people up in a heartbeat as more or less the personification of evil, and condemn in the strongest terms possible (with a strong chance of conspiracy charges) anyone who had “accepted them for who they are.” I don’t think anyone on this board would argue that our jailing or even execution of that type of person was anything but righteous.

    So why the sudden escalation between meat and horrific crimes? Because it turns out that one of the easiest ways for Good and Evil to get along is to put a power differential in place. There is a human tendency to normalize morality in accordance with what the likely effect of resisting Evil/Good will be. And I don’t mean a cold calculating “play along, but our day is nigh!” I mean that literally the needle on the outrage caused gets so tamped down by the need to accept and rationalize acts if we want to participate in society that very quickly objective Evil/Good can become a non-issue by being marginal and near irrelevant for a given act.

    Which is, of course, just how easy it is to get Good and Evil characters working together. You’re good but live in Evil Lulz land? Chances are you’ll pretty quickly change your definition of evil even though the rule book won’t. Your evil and live in the Good and True land? Eventually you’ll find a way to rationalize most Good behavior as really letting you do your evil thang.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    The vegan thing is actually quite a handy reference point. Presumably the vegans in question believe that eating meat is an immoral act on account of it causing suffering, etc., etc. They clearly believe that it is morally correct to refrain from causing said pain. (Their motives for said beliefs , as always, run the gamut). They are surrounded by people like you, me, and OP who happily eat meat without a second thought.

    We, to their moral philosophy, are actively engaging in causing suffering in a manner they have rejected as cruel and unnecessary, largely for our own convenience and pleasure - particularly in a world where many protein alternatives are available.

    But they are surrounded by us carnivores and our system. They can go through their entire lives putting themselves in a societal fringe, or they can make peace with the fact that the best they can do is be good by themselves and tolerate everyone else. How they rationalize that is up to them, but it usually takes the form of tolerance and deciding it’s not a irreconcilable flaw in people like OP. They presumably would have a much harder time dealing with the world if they reacted to meat eating the same way they did to, say, human traffickers.

    I mention this because the interesting thought experiment is if they achieved a moral majority, BMH (and us other carnivores) might be looking at prison sentences for burgers. No doubt in that case they would not tolerate OP, but rather scorn him and declare him evil.

    In contrast, there are parts of the world that forum policy won’t let me specifically name, where the keeping of pre-adolescent boys in sex slavery is more or less treated the like meat eating for us. There’s a few people who might disagree with it, but at most they personally abstain. They certainly have a live and let live attitude towards it happening, and pay no more attention to the matter than a vegan does to his friend eating a steak. We here in the west of course would lock these people up in a heartbeat as more or less the personification of evil, and condemn in the strongest terms possible (with a strong chance of conspiracy charges) anyone who had “accepted them for who they are.” I don’t think anyone on this board would argue that our jailing or even execution of that type of person was anything but righteous.

    So why the sudden escalation between meat and horrific crimes? Because it turns out that one of the easiest ways for Good and Evil to get along is to put a power differential in place. There is a human tendency to normalize morality in accordance with what the likely effect of resisting Evil/Good will be. And I don’t mean a cold calculating “play along, but our day is nigh!” I mean that literally the needle on the outrage caused gets so tamped down by the need to accept and rationalize acts if we want to participate in society that very quickly objective Evil/Good can become a non-issue by being marginal and near irrelevant for a given act.

    Which is, of course, just how easy it is to get Good and Evil characters working together. You’re good but live in Evil Lulz land? Chances are you’ll pretty quickly change your definition of evil even though the rule book won’t. Your evil and live in the Good and True land? Eventually you’ll find a way to rationalize most Good behavior as really letting you do your evil thang.
    I tried to be vegan at one point and I lasted only a single day. I just realized being vegan isn't for me. I need my meat to survive.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    I know a vegan whose response to being in that kind of social surrounding was to take the position that basically, as long as someone is willing to face the full process that they're engaging in when consuming animal products, thats a suitable pressure to be applying on society to change without just giving in and normalizing the behavior they think is wrong. If someone can look at e.g. animals being packed in so much in factory farms that some get crushed to death and lie on the cage floor for days rotting before they get cleaned away, and not flinch, then he won't give them a hard time going forward about their choices. But if someone has convinced themselves that there's no suffering involved in the eggs they eat or the milk they drink, he'll happily divest them of those illusions.

    There are more ways to create change than to take a hardline us vs them stance.

    But it's sort of funny because, if you map it to the context of this thread, in some sense it'd be an example of a Good person who gets along better with an Evil person who owns the fact that they are Evil without glorifying it, than an Evil person who claims to be Good. That seems paradoxical at first, but I suspect there's something to it. The Evil person claiming to be Good shifts the norms as to what is considered Good in their society, whereas the Evil person who will say 'don't be like me, kids' has much more contained social impacts.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    I know a vegan whose response to being in that kind of social surrounding was to take the position that basically, as long as someone is willing to face the full process that they're engaging in when consuming animal products, that's a suitable pressure to be applying on society to change without just giving in and normalizing the behavior they think is wrong. If someone can look at e.g. animals being packed in so much in factory farms that some get crushed to death and lie on the cage floor for days rotting before they get cleaned away, and not flinch, then he won't give them a hard time going forward about their choices. But if someone has convinced themselves that there's no suffering involved in the eggs they eat or the milk they drink, he'll happily divest them of those illusions.

    There are more ways to create change than to take a hardline us vs them stance.

    But it's sort of funny because, if you map it to the context of this thread, in some sense it'd be an example of a Good person who gets along better with an Evil person who owns the fact that they are Evil without glorifying it, than an Evil person who claims to be Good. That seems paradoxical at first, but I suspect there's something to it. The Evil person claiming to be Good shifts the norms as to what is considered Good in their society, whereas the Evil person who will say 'don't be like me, kids' has much more contained social impacts.
    Just because Vegans cares strongly about animals doesn't mean they're all good. Vegans are neutral at best and they're also evil vegans as well.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Just because Vegans cares strongly about animals doesn't mean they're all good. Vegans are neutral at best and they're also evil vegans as well.
    Read it as 'people of the Vegan alignment can get along with people of the Carnivore alignment without just giving up and accepting their behavior'

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    Read it as 'people of the Vegan alignment can get along with people of the Carnivore alignment without just giving up and accepting their behavior'
    Well, that's their problem then. If they don't want to eat animals then that just fine by me. It's their personal choice. But if they going to tell me not to eat meat because they have this type of mindset which they have a problem with, then I don't want to associate with them. Some people are free to choose meat if they want to. Animals are here for a reason to eat. That's what we carnivores do.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-12-17 at 01:19 AM.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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