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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    That is only a problem if one or both sides wish to force their behavior on the other side. Such people certainly exist, but in my experience (both in game and in reality) there are a lot of people willing to live and let live. It's certainly a possible reason for conflict but it won't make it a certainty.
    Live and let live, not live and let murder. Evil doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's harmful behavior that you do to other people. A neutral character may look the other side but a good character would only do nothing if that is all they can do.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Well, that's their problem then. If they don't want to eat animals then that just fine by me. It's their personal choice. But if they going to tell me not to eat meat because they have this type of mindset which they have a problem with, then I don't want to associate with them. Some people are free to choose meat if they want to. Animals are here for a reason to eat. That's what we carnivores do.
    Would you be able to get along with the particular guy I mentioned, who would say 'okay, I'll respect your choice to eat meat but only if you're willing to look at and understand how it's made and still make that choice'? (well it'd be more like he'd say, 'I won't respect your choice but I'll stop bothering you about it')
    Last edited by NichG; 2020-12-17 at 01:39 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    Would you be able to get along with the particular guy I mentioned, who would say 'okay, I'll respect your choice to eat meat but only if you're willing to look at and understand how it's made and still make that choice'? (well it'd be more like he'd say, 'I won't respect your choice but I'll stop bothering you about it')
    That depends if he doesn't shove his beliefs down my throat. As I said before if we have mutual respect then that's fine. Also, I even mentioned before some people chooses to eat meat because we carnivores need to survive. More importantly, I see many vegans who have this dogmatic mindset that tells other meat-eaters that eating meat is evil, so therefore not all vegans are as good as they claim to be.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Live and let live, not live and let murder. Evil doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's harmful behavior that you do to other people. A neutral character may look the other side but a good character would only do nothing if that is all they can do.
    If it happened in front of them? Yes. But in my experience people are able to look past a lot of bad behavior in others as long as they don't have to look at it directly. I think some good characters would be quite able to get along with – even be friends with – people who they theoretically know does bad things, as long as they don't have to see it up close.

    That's my theory, anyway. I doubt there are any canon sources that can confirm either way (though I could be mistaken).

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Good characters have a mandate to protect the innocent and (especially when LG) punish those who harm the innocent. While a strongly Good character shouldn't take this all the way into "committing evil deeds against these villains" - they're not exactly expected to protect villains from evildoers either.

    As a result, a "The Punisher" type of evil character, whose evil deeds are purely focused on villains, can get along to a degree with a Good character who avoids committing evil deeds themselves.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Live and let live, not live and let murder. Evil doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's harmful behavior that you do to other people. A neutral character may look the other side but a good character would only do nothing if that is all they can do.
    Now if you start looking at the harm done, that is another discussion than "being evil". No one likes or tolerates those that are harmful to their own society. Good people, neutral people, evil people tend to equally intolerant of threats and harms to their in-group.

    And as for "harming enemies", only pacifists have a fundamental problem with that. Sure, there are rules in warfare, degrees of escalation, honor etc, ut most of that is more a Law-Chaos thing than a Good-Evil one.

    And then there are many ways to be pretty evil without any obvious or big harm.

    I remember once having a cleric of Evening Glory in the group. The (official) Goddess of 'Love beyond the grave' trying to create a place where the living and the undead could peocefully coexist and potentially love each other. This cleric regurlarly engaged in obviously evil acts like creating undead or casting spells strengthening undead like Desecrate. He also helped people commit suicide with the aim of becoming undead. And then there obviously also stuff that could be considered necrophilia. Per rules a lot of Evil deeds, regularly done without any remorse, so he counted as Evil, even if the goddess counts as neutral.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    As a result, a "The Punisher" type of evil character, whose evil deeds are purely focused on villains, can get along to a degree with a Good character who avoids committing evil deeds themselves.
    Would someone like the Punisher even qualify as evil by D&D standards? Isn't killing brutally killing evil pretty much what most adventurers does, regardless of alignment? I'm not sure I see the difference between the Punisher raiding a house full of mobsters and killing everyone and a D&D party raiding a dungeon full of goblins and killing everyone.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2020-12-17 at 02:35 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    If it happened in front of them? Yes. But in my experience people are able to look past a lot of bad behavior in others as long as they don't have to look at it directly. I think some good characters would be quite able to get along with – even be friends with – people who they theoretically know does bad things, as long as they don't have to see it up close.

    That's my theory, anyway. I doubt there are any canon sources that can confirm either way (though I could be mistaken).
    Willing ignorance is no excuse (unlike unwilling ignorance). If character A has committed rape and murder, character A is not remorseful about it and may even brag about it in ways that don't get them in legal trouble, then character B should find character A vile, even if they didn't rape and murder in front of them.
    Even if Character A is affable and poses no threat to character B, character B is either not able to get along with character A or not good.

    You can replace character A's crimes with lesser evils like racism, bullying, exploitation. The only thing that will change for Character B is how extreme the circumstance has to be for B to tolerate A. But "being friends" is off the menu.

    An example is that Roy is NOT friends with Belkar, he does NOT get along with him. He tolerates Belkar to the extent that Belkar is useful in destroying a greater evil, that is all. Belkar moving towards less evil has made Roy less hostile to him, but he's not friends with him like he was with Durkon.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Willing ignorance is no excuse (unlike unwilling ignorance). If character A has committed rape and murder, character A is not remorseful about it and may even brag about it in ways that don't get them in legal trouble, then character B should find character A vile, even if they didn't rape and murder in front of them.
    Even if Character A is affable and poses no threat to character B, character B is either not able to get along with character A or not good.

    You can replace character A's crimes with lesser evils like racism, bullying, exploitation. The only thing that will change for Character B is how extreme the circumstance has to be for B to tolerate A. But "being friends" is off the menu.
    I disagree. Though as I said, I don't think there's any canon "right" answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    An example is that Roy is NOT friends with Belkar, he does NOT get along with him. He tolerates Belkar to the extent that Belkar is useful in destroying a greater evil, that is all. Belkar moving towards less evil has made Roy less hostile to him, but he's not friends with him like he was with Durkon.
    Probably true. But I would argue that Elan is friends with Belkar and while Elan may be ditzy, even he isn't ignorant of Belkar's behavior. I'm not saying all good characters can be friends with all evil characters, I'm saying that some can.

    Not to mention that Belkar, especially pre-character development, is pretty much the hardest type of chaotic stupid evil to be friends with, so he might not be the best example.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2020-12-17 at 03:06 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Plus, acting in a Good way is different than Good holding positive aesthetics for someone. For example, someone could hate the experience of seeing evil acts done around them, want to shut down and destroy those acts, but still commit evil acts regularly themselves. Similarly someone could regularly and consistently help others, exhibit kindness and forgiveness and respect for life, and be self-sacrificing without externally glorifying self-sacrifice or being inherently disgusted by evil.

    It's the difference between 'I do Good acts because they are Good' and 'I do acts (which happen to be Good) because those are the acts I want to do'. Being good and valuing goodness are related, but not the same thing.
    Last edited by NichG; 2020-12-17 at 03:16 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Re: vegan alignment getting along with carnivore alignment.

    BMH, this all rather reinforces the point. Us carnivorous folk are doing something a true blue vegan disagrees with morally: killing and causing inhumane suffering so that we can have tasty steaks and thanksgiving Turkey rather than beyond burger and tofurkey. Basically, solely for our personal pleasure. (I love me a good medium rare steak)

    I can hardly imagine anyone Good in the modern saying “well, so long as you’re willing to watch them go under, I guess it’s ok if you want to dump that shipping container of migrants into the sea”. And certainly the average westerner wouldn’t think it socially acceptable to say “hey! You want to get all preachy about me drowning migrants who were a risk to my business? You live your life, I’ll live mine!”.

    But that is definitely our view on eating meat. “Good” people get along with “Evil” people out of the need not to fight an endless war against society. And vice versa, because do we really care if our friend doesn’t eat meat so long as they aren’t too preachy?

    Drop in a society where slavery is widespread, or we sacrifice someone to the spider god in awesome public holidays that everyone loves, and you’ll get the same dynamic. Slavery and spider-god sacrifice become “nuisance evil”, and its, as we’ve seen, not too hard to get along over nuisance evil, for all the same reasons we get along over eating meat.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    real humans aren't logical, they can like people who are terrible people even when that person is actually terrible to them. When the evil happens to an out group where they don't have to see it, it becomes so much easier. They make excuses, they rationalize they let their emotions guide them. Most people don't think in the terms of good and evil.

    For those of you saying you can't be good if you tolerate evil, sure tolerating evil might not be a good act but a single evil/ neutral act doesn't make you good by that logic, it will be impossible to be good in a society that accepts an evil act. That goodness is exclusive to good societies.

    Evil people often don't think they are evil and if their society agrees with them the good person might as well, even if they don't do the action in question. Not all people deeply investigate their moral position.

    Imagine a good person in an evil society who believe torturing people is the right thing to do and that their inability to do so is a sign of weakness. They are not performing evil acts and are possibly even at risk to themselves by not doing so but because they believe they are in the wrong they don't reject those who do even if they cant bear to watch.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I disagree. Though as I said, I don't think there's any canon "right" answer.
    Given the variation with the D&D alignment system across time (to say nothing of real world ethics), that almost would have to be the case.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by awa View Post
    Imagine a good person in an evil society who believe torturing people is the right thing to do and that their inability to do so is a sign of weakness. They are not performing evil acts and are possibly even at risk to themselves by not doing so but because they believe they are in the wrong they don't reject those who do even if they cant bear to watch.
    Huckleberry Finn. Huck has been taught his whole life that slavery is right and that turning over a runaway slave is a good thing, but when he gets to know Jim her decides that if it's a good thing to turn him in then he, Huckleberry, chooses to be evil and go to Hell instead.

    It should be omnivore, not carnivore. I eat steak, but I eat veggies too.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Is there anyone who didn't know about R Kelley? Or doesn't vaguely know sneakers are made by children in sweat shops?

    Heck I have relatives I would classify as evil.

    There is so much evil that it is basically impossible to divorce yourself from it. Even a moral crusader doesn't have enough time to protest every evil they see daily.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Would someone like the Punisher even qualify as evil by D&D standards?
    Yes. He doesn't just "kill those deserving of death" - he tortures - and in D&D, nobody is "deserving of torture".
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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    Re: vegan alignment getting along with carnivore alignment.

    BMH, this all rather reinforces the point. Us carnivorous folk are doing something a true blue vegan disagrees with morally: killing and causing inhumane suffering so that we can have tasty steaks and thanksgiving Turkey rather than beyond burger and tofurkey. Solely for our pleasure. (I love me a good medium-rare steak)

    I can hardly imagine anyone Good in the modern saying “well, so long as you’re willing to watch them go under, I guess it’s ok if you want to dump that shipping container of migrants into the sea”. And certainly, the average westerner wouldn’t think it socially acceptable to say “hey! You want to get all preachy about me drowning migrants who were a risk to my business? You live your life, I’ll live mine!”.

    But that is our view on eating meat. “Good” people get along with “Evil” people out of the need not to fight an endless war against society. And vice versa, because do we care if our friend doesn’t eat meat so long as they aren’t too preachy?

    Drop-in a society where slavery is widespread, or we sacrifice someone to the spider god in awesome public holidays that everyone loves, and you’ll get the same dynamic. Slavery and spider-god sacrifice become “nuisance evil”, and it's, as we’ve seen, not too hard to get along over nuisance evil, for all the same reasons we get along over eating meat.
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Look I don't have any problems with vegans at all but as long if don't they shove their beliefs down to my throat then we're cool.
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Look I don't have any problems with vegans at all but as long if don't they shove their beliefs down to my throat then we're cool.
    Oh how I would echo this sentiment if the forum rules were otherwise.

    At what point does exporting moral demands deviate from Good?
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    Oh how I would echo this sentiment if the forum rules were otherwise.

    At what point does exporting moral demands deviate from Good?
    I don't know what you mean by that?
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-12-17 at 01:53 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    I'd say that it depends heavily in how the characters are being played. If the Evil character is sort of a Snidely Whiplash type, regularly doing obvious acts of wickedness for wickedness's sake, then no. The Good character(s) will almost certainly find themselves too often in conflict to establish any sort of working relationship. Conversely, if the Good character is a Miko Miyazaki type, who tolerates no evil whatsoever in their presence, then that's again going to generate too much conflict.

    If both characters are portrayed with a certain level of depth and complexity, I can see it working. Maybe the Good character feels more comfortable with the Evil one under their observation than just out there unsupervised. If the Evil character believes it's more in their interest to work with the Good character than to antagonize them, again, it can work.

    Is it ever going to be a bestest-buddies situation? Highly unlikely. Even if they have some other bond (siblings, for example), their differing outlooks are going to be a source of some tension.

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I don't know what you mean by that?
    To roll with the vegan example (to hopefully dodge politics) let us consider the following examples. Assume that it is good to care about the treatment of animals.

    Take Vegan V and Omnivore O.

    For the first case V and O are of similar standing. Does V not commenting on O void V’s goodness? Does V merely commenting sustain goodness? Does V taking actions (Forcing or tricking O into encountering motivational material) in the interest of furthering their focus of goodness have justification that keeps V good? Would drastic actions to further the previous point (kidnapping and forcing O to watch things) void V’s goodness?

    Now consider the case where V has authority or power over O. Does this change the cases of saying nothing or merely commenting? Does this justify intrusive measures V can take in the interest of their good because V has ethically sound means and motive? Does the presence of ethically sound means and motive cause V’s inaction to be non good implying a moral obligation to act? How far would be too far for V to exercise their power over O to bring about change?

    We’re not going to solve this, morality and ethics will be debated for as long as humans live as a species at least.
    Last edited by Xervous; 2020-12-17 at 02:38 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    To roll with the vegan example (to hopefully dodge politics) let us consider the following examples. Assume that it is good to care about the treatment of animals.

    Take Vegan V and Omnivore O.

    For the first case, V and O are of similar standing. Does V not commenting on Ovoid V’s goodness? Does V merely comment sustain goodness? Does V take actions (Forcing it tricking O into encountering motivational material) in the interest of furthering their focus of goodness have justification that keeps V good? Would drastic actions further the previous point (kidnapping and forcing O to watch things) void V’s goodness?

    Now consider the case where V has authority or power over O. Does this change the cases of saying nothing or merely commenting? Does this justify intrusive measures V can take in the interest of their good because V has ethically sound means and motive? Does the presence of morally sound means and motive cause V’s inaction to be nongood implying a moral obligation to act? How far would be too far for V to exercise their power over O to bring about change?

    We’re not going to solve this, morality and ethics will be debated for as long as humans live as a species at least.
    Those are some good points but that's not going to change my viewpoints to stop eating meat. As the old saying goes: "Once a carnivore, always a carnivore."
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Those are some good points but that's not going to change my viewpoints to stop eating meat. As the old saying goes: "Once a carnivore, always a carnivore."
    You’d stop at some point up to and including me going Clockwork Orange on you. What point would be going too far? (I don’t expect a clear answer)
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xervous View Post
    You’d stop at some point up to and including me going Clockwork Orange on you. What point would be going too far? (I don’t expect a clear answer)
    I don't get the reference.
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    BMH - knowing that you have certain real world considerations, a little bit of clarification:

    Our O vs V discussion is a stand in for any number of moral positions where one side is “Good” and the other is “Evil”. For the discussion, we’re assuming Vegan moral philosophy is the view point, and thus V is inherently “Good”, while O is inherently “Evil”.

    You can substitute in any number of other actions besides eating meat into the equation if you prefer.

    The question becomes at what point does V tolerating O make V evil, what are V’s responsibilities, authorities, and limits in relation to O in order to retain their good status?

    The answer to that is more or less the answer to if “good” and “evil” characters can get along.

    As for clockwork orange, he is basically saying that at some point society could change you. If all your friends and everyone you knew thought eating meat was disgusting and wrong and wouldn’t dare be caught with a horrible person who did. If eating meat carried a prison sentence. If upon being discovered that you had the vile and base urge to eat meat, you were subjected intensive rehabilitation via biochemistry and psychotherapy. If meat eaters were forced into re-education camps where work, torture, brainwashing, misery, and continuous political indoctrination were used to cure you of your meat eating ways. For an RPG example, if you were magically mind controlled or had a bio-hacker rewrite your psyche.
    Last edited by KineticDiplomat; 2020-12-17 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    BMH - knowing that you have certain real-world considerations, a little bit of clarification:

    Our O vs V discussion is a stand-in for any number of moral positions where one side is “Good” and the other is “Evil”. For the discussion, we’re assuming Vegan moral philosophy is the viewpoint, and thus V is inherently “Good”, while O is inherently “Evil”.

    You can substitute any number of other actions besides eating meat into the equation if you prefer.

    The question becomes at what point does V tolerating Omake V evil, what are V’s responsibilities, authorities, and limits about O to retain their good status?

    The answer to that is more or less the answer to if “good” and “evil” characters can get along.
    So if the vegan viewpoint think that all carnivores are universally evil all because that they eat meat and don't care for the animals at all then how can the carnivores survived without meat then? I think it's unfair to say that not all carnivores are universally evil.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-12-17 at 03:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    So if the vegan viewpoint think that all carnivores are universally evil all because that they eat meat and don't care for the animals at all then how can the carnivores survived without meat then? I think it's unfair to say that not all carnivores are universally evil.
    That’s besides the point of discussion. We are looking at an omnivore that has a choice and starting with an assumption that vegan is morally good. You don’t have to agree with it, I don’t agree with it, but it’s a much safer topic than things that will bleed into politics.
    By the metric of being wholly dependent on the GM for noncombat interaction Fighter is an NPC class.

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Carnivore being a catchy title for what Xervous more accurately identified as Omnivore. And is suspect they would say that there are any number of options for survival and food enjoyment that don’t involve cruelty, suffering, etc. (to which we would mostly roll our eyes and go back to eating our cheeseburger).

    But that’s all rather irrelevant to the matter. The issue at hand is that yes, Good and Evil people can work, cooperate, and even be friendly. After all, you have friends who fundamentally believe your actions are amoral and involve near torture of animals in order to have a better meal, but they’re still your friends and don’t consider themselves evil.

    Extrapolate the dynamic to any other number of situations - you can certainly find cases where things we would consider reprehensible and inhumane cause about as much commotion as eating meat in more parts of the world than we’d like to admit. And the people who would lecture against those acts are often considered pretentious overbearing twits in those areas...so...do with it as you will.

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I don't get the reference.
    In A Clockwork Orange (lengthy summary follows):
    Spoiler
    Show
    Alex is a teenager who runs a small gang. Their favorite activities involve drinking drug-laced milk and then mugging people, combined with a little rape and an occasional rumble with other gangs. Alex is fully capable of seducing girls without force (shown in a scene where he does just that with two girls at a record shop) and he is quite intelligent, but he likes violence and rape. His one redeeming trait is that he loves the music of Beethoven (and he has a pet snake in the movie that he does seem to care for, but partly because his parents don't like snakes and it keeps them out of his room where he keeps everything he's taken off of mugging victims). His parents are willfully oblivious to his activities.
    During a home invasion one night Alex rapes a woman while singing "Singing in the Rain" with her husband listening, after having beaten him severely. This comes up again later.
    Eventually Alex's gang decides they are tired of him bossing them around and decide to turn him in. During a home invasion robbery they knock Alex out and leave him for the police, after he has already beaten the woman who lives there. When the police catch him they determine that Alex killed the woman, and Alex gets a heavy prison sentence.
    In prison Alex pretends to be an model inmate, but he's really just biding his time to get back to what he loves again. He hears of an experimental technique - the Ludovico technique - that will allow him to be released early, and he volunteers even though the prison priest advises him not to.
    The Ludovico technique is a form of aversion therapy. The subject strapped down and has an apparatus on his eyes to prevent him from looking away from a movie screen. He is given injections that make him feel ill while scenes of violence play on the screen, accompanied by Beethoven music. Alex objects to having Beethoven played while he undergoes the therapy, because "he never did anything to anyone" but the scientists ignore his pleas.
    The therapy works, and Alex becomes incapable of attempting violence without getting violently ill. He is released. He discovers that his parents have let out his room and they refuse to allow him to return. His former gang have joined the police force, and when they see he can't resist they beat him up.
    Fleeing from his victims, Alex finds a home that lets him in. The writer who lives there, Mr. Alexander, is confined to a wheelchair. He explains that he was injured during a home invasion during which his wife was raped. Alex recognizes the man as his victim but is not recognized in return, because he was wearing a mask at the time. When the writer finds out that Alex is the subject of the Ludovico technique he wants to interview him so he an write about the governments use of this new technique, which the writer considers abusive.
    While staying at the home Alex takes a long bath, and sings "Singing in the Rain" while doing so. The writer recognizes his voice and realizes Alex is the one who put him in the wheelchair and caused his wife to leave him. He and his nurse (played by David Prowse in the movie) drug Alex and put him in an upstairs room with Beethoven's 9th Symphony playing on loud speakers until Alex can't take it any more and jumps out of the window.
    Alex's suicide attempt becomes a government scandal. He receives a full pardon and the scientists (somehow) reverse the Ludovico conditioning. Alex returns to his evil ways.
    The UK version of the book includes as the final chapter a grown-up Alex who has become a good citizen after all. The American version and the Kubrick movie leave this part out, and the implication is that Alex will continue to do evil until he is caught again.

    In the novel, A Clockwork Orange is given as the title of the manuscript Mr. Alexander is working on. A clockwork orange is an example of something being ruined for its main purpose. Replacing an orange with a clockwork orange makes it no longer edible. Late in the book Alex says that a person who can't choose to be good or evil is nothing more than a clockwork orange - no longer a person.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Can Good And Evil Characters Get Along?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    In A Clockwork Orange (lengthy summary follows):
    Spoiler
    Show
    Alex is a teenager who runs a small gang. Their favorite activities involve drinking drug-laced milk and then mugging people, combined with a little rape and an occasional rumble with other gangs. Alex is fully capable of seducing girls without force (shown in a scene where he does just that with two girls at a record shop) and he is quite intelligent, but he likes violence and rape. His one redeeming trait is that he loves the music of Beethoven (and he has a pet snake in the movie that he does seem to care for, but partly because his parents don't like snakes and it keeps them out of his room where he keeps everything he's taken off of mugging victims). His parents are willfully oblivious to his activities.
    During a home invasion one night Alex rapes a woman while singing "Singing in the Rain" with her husband listening, after having beaten him severely. This comes up again later.
    Eventually Alex's gang decides they are tired of him bossing them around and decide to turn him in. During a home invasion robbery they knock Alex out and leave him for the police, after he has already beaten the woman who lives there. When the police catch him they determine that Alex killed the woman, and Alex gets a heavy prison sentence.
    In prison Alex pretends to be an model inmate, but he's really just biding his time to get back to what he loves again. He hears of an experimental technique - the Ludovico technique - that will allow him to be released early, and he volunteers even though the prison priest advises him not to.
    The Ludovico technique is a form of aversion therapy. The subject strapped down and has an apparatus on his eyes to prevent him from looking away from a movie screen. He is given injections that make him feel ill while scenes of violence play on the screen, accompanied by Beethoven music. Alex objects to having Beethoven played while he undergoes the therapy, because "he never did anything to anyone" but the scientists ignore his pleas.
    The therapy works, and Alex becomes incapable of attempting violence without getting violently ill. He is released. He discovers that his parents have let out his room and they refuse to allow him to return. His former gang have joined the police force, and when they see he can't resist they beat him up.
    Fleeing from his victims, Alex finds a home that lets him in. The writer who lives there, Mr. Alexander, is confined to a wheelchair. He explains that he was injured during a home invasion during which his wife was raped. Alex recognizes the man as his victim but is not recognized in return, because he was wearing a mask at the time. When the writer finds out that Alex is the subject of the Ludovico technique he wants to interview him so he an write about the governments use of this new technique, which the writer considers abusive.
    While staying at the home Alex takes a long bath, and sings "Singing in the Rain" while doing so. The writer recognizes his voice and realizes Alex is the one who put him in the wheelchair and caused his wife to leave him. He and his nurse (played by David Prowse in the movie) drug Alex and put him in an upstairs room with Beethoven's 9th Symphony playing on loud speakers until Alex can't take it any more and jumps out of the window.
    Alex's suicide attempt becomes a government scandal. He receives a full pardon and the scientists (somehow) reverse the Ludovico conditioning. Alex returns to his evil ways.
    The UK version of the book includes as the final chapter a grown-up Alex who has become a good citizen after all. The American version and the Kubrick movie leave this part out, and the implication is that Alex will continue to do evil until he is caught again.

    In the novel, A Clockwork Orange is given as the title of the manuscript Mr. Alexander is working on. A clockwork orange is an example of something being ruined for its main purpose. Replacing an orange with a clockwork orange makes it no longer edible. Late in the book Alex says that a person who can't choose to be good or evil is nothing more than a clockwork orange - no longer a person.
    Ok. Now I understand the reference a little more.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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