Cyberpunk 2077

[warty goblin]

Honestly, I wish crafting systems were more..... Crafty, in most games.

I don't want an alternate way to purchase gear or equipment. I want to build a screaming death trap of a war machine that's effectiveness relies on how well designed it was.

Honestly I wish crafting systems were more... nonexistent in most games. The difficulty curve of most games is so hilariously broken already, adding a giant timesink resource pit to break it further is just unnecessary. And there's never really anything interesting to it; find recipe, grind ingredients, hit craft. It's like a fetch quest stripped of any pretense of narrative that the player assigns themselves for some reason. And it takes basically zero skill, the only challenge is tolerating the component grind, and it provides about as much gameplay as the "options" menu, since all you're doing is hitting a button.

[Rynjin]

Honestly, I wish crafting systems were more..... Crafty, in most games.

I don't want an alternate way to purchase gear or equipment. I want to build a screaming death trap of a war machine that's effectiveness relies on how well designed it was.

Have you played Besiege?

[Blackhawk748]

Have you played Besiege?

Or Crossout to an extent. Fun game.

I agree. Cyberpunk has a pretty awful difficulty curve, but unlike, say Fallout 4 which is similar, the crafting just shatters it more whereas Fallout kind of evens it out.

I think it's just exacerbating preexisting issues like the loot being useless. Like, yes I could use the food, or with one perk point I could never think about it again

[druid91]

Have you played Besiege?

Yep! It's great.

[sihnfahl]

the only challenge is tolerating the component grind, and it provides about as much gameplay as the "options" menu, since all you're doing is hitting a button.

And that if you want to craft multiple items, there's no 'autocraft' system. You have to hold and release for each item...

Also, on another note, you know, for a man of God, the Padre really is old-school.

Forget that love and forgiveness stuff. Padre says: smite them all, and let God sort it out.

[Eldan]

I mean, I'd probably love a roleplaying game built entirely around the craft system. Story: you're an artificer of some kind. You have to solve every combat and environmental problem with a rube-Goldberg machine, but you have an open world to do it in. Equal parts Besieged, The Incredible Machine and Zelda Breath of the Wild.

That would be near-impossible to implement well, probably, but it could be fantastic. "So, I need to kill the dragon that flies out of this cave every morning at sunrise to go hunting. I have six levers, twelve springs, two eggwhisks, a fishing line, three gears and a small hammer, plus whatever I can find in this mountain forest. Let's do this."

Outside that unlikely case, yeah, I'll add my voice to the "get the crafting out of this game please" pile.

[Amechra]

I mean, I'd probably love a roleplaying game built entirely around the craft system. Story: you're an artificer of some kind. You have to solve every combat and environmental problem with a rube-Goldberg machine, but you have an open world to do it in. Equal parts Besieged, The Incredible Machine and Zelda Breath of the Wild.

I seem to recall that there are some older text adventures built around this general concept. But those are, you know, text adventures.

---

There are a few key issues with crafting systems in games that aren't focused on crafting:

1. They have to be skippable. Since it's not the main draw of your game, the vast majority of players need to be able to skip it. As a result, you're pretty much stuck with making boring consumables or minor number buffs.
2. They have to keep up with the gear treadmill. As a result, you either run into the issue where the weapon you spent 15 minutes crafting is useless an hour later, or where that weapon you spend 15 minutes crafting breaks the game over your knee.
3. The creators tend to think that they need to continually throw crafting ingredients at you, so your inventory ends up being incredibly cluttered.
4. A lot of gear systems tend to take up way more time than they're actually worth, because they involve digging through an inventory full of useless garbage.

Compare that to how Resident Evil handled crafting (AKA mixing herbs):

1. Instead of having discrete recipes, you have rules for how herbs interact that are pretty easy to remember. If you find a Yellow herb, you know that you should combine it with a Red herb (because Red + Yellow = increased max HP) and a Green herb (because Red + Green = a full heal).
2. If you skip mixing herbs, you'll be stuck with an inventory full of lackluster healing items for the whole game. And on top of that, you need specific herb combinations to increase your maximum HP. It's not necessary, but that's a perk worth going after.
3. Any important herbs aren't random drops — you need to explore to find the good stuff. On top of that, you have a limited inventory — not only does this mean that you can't lug around a million components, it also means that crafting is a massive efficiency boost.
4. It takes a few seconds to mix together herbs (you're just combining them in your inventory, adventure-game-style).

If I had to pick one of those items for why I think it's a good system, I'd have to point to how it interacts with a small inventory. If you can carry an infinite number of items, then mixing two herbs that each heal 10 HP into a potion that heals 20 HP is almost entirely pointless — at best, it gives you more efficient in-combat healing. If you have eight inventory slots to work with, on the other hand, using the crafting system gave you more efficient healing and opened up an extra slot. That's way more appealing.

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, I'd probably love a roleplaying game built entirely around the craft system. Story: you're an artificer of some kind. You have to solve every combat and environmental problem with a rube-Goldberg machine, but you have an open world to do it in. Equal parts Besieged, The Incredible Machine and Zelda Breath of the Wild.

That would be near-impossible to implement well, probably, but it could be fantastic. "So, I need to kill the dragon that flies out of this cave every morning at sunrise to go hunting. I have six levers, twelve springs, two eggwhisks, a fishing line, three gears and a small hammer, plus whatever I can find in this mountain forest. Let's do this."

Outside that unlikely case, yeah, I'll add my voice to the "get the crafting out of this game please" pile.

Dragon Quest Builders?

[Chen]

Which is why my next run will probably be no major crafting or cyber. Just to see the difference.
Still going to sink a point or two into the breakdown perks in crafting - too much of a moneymaker.

Its not really the crafting that’s the issue for the armor. You can find armadillo mods at various stores or in loot anyways. The armor is all found legendary pieces with many slots.

In theory without crafting you would have to randomly get the legendary quick hacks from access points which would make that bit harder. But really even without hacking at all the free gun in Lizzie’s bar is probably strong enough to beat the game with, let alone things like Skippy or Genjiroh.

[Rynjin]

I seem to recall that there are some older text adventures built around this general concept. But those are, you know, text adventures.

---

There are a few key issues with crafting systems in games that aren't focused on crafting:

1. They have to be skippable. Since it's not the main draw of your game, the vast majority of players need to be able to skip it. As a result, you're pretty much stuck with making boring consumables or minor number buffs.
2. They have to keep up with the gear treadmill. As a result, you either run into the issue where the weapon you spent 15 minutes crafting is useless an hour later, or where that weapon you spend 15 minutes crafting breaks the game over your knee.
3. The creators tend to think that they need to continually throw crafting ingredients at you, so your inventory ends up being incredibly cluttered.
4. A lot of gear systems tend to take up way more time than they're actually worth, because they involve digging through an inventory full of useless garbage.

Compare that to how Resident Evil handled crafting (AKA mixing herbs):

1. Instead of having discrete recipes, you have rules for how herbs interact that are pretty easy to remember. If you find a Yellow herb, you know that you should combine it with a Red herb (because Red + Yellow = increased max HP) and a Green herb (because Red + Green = a full heal).
2. If you skip mixing herbs, you'll be stuck with an inventory full of lackluster healing items for the whole game. And on top of that, you need specific herb combinations to increase your maximum HP. It's not necessary, but that's a perk worth going after.
3. Any important herbs aren't random drops — you need to explore to find the good stuff. On top of that, you have a limited inventory — not only does this mean that you can't lug around a million components, it also means that crafting is a massive efficiency boost.
4. It takes a few seconds to mix together herbs (you're just combining them in your inventory, adventure-game-style).

If I had to pick one of those items for why I think it's a good system, I'd have to point to how it interacts with a small inventory. If you can carry an infinite number of items, then mixing two herbs that each heal 10 HP into a potion that heals 20 HP is almost entirely pointless — at best, it gives you more efficient in-combat healing. If you have eight inventory slots to work with, on the other hand, using the crafting system gave you more efficient healing and opened up an extra slot. That's way more appealing.

Wait, which Resident Evil game has a yellow herb?

Edit: Weird...I never got to play 4 so didn't know it had a unique herb in it.

[sihnfahl]

In theory without crafting you would have to randomly get the legendary quick hacks from access points which would make that bit harder.

Well, the playstyle I currently use is liberal use of quickhacks like contagion, cyberpsychosis and system reset.

By 'not using' those two, it's more for extracting the components to sell for eurobucks, and focusing more on body, reflexes and cool for a more direct run and gun style of fighting.

Course, against weaker enemies, now, I'm just using charged up gorilla arms to beat the crud out of them. Faster than waiting for quickhacks, fancy that.

[Chen]

Well, the playstyle I currently use is liberal use of quickhacks like contagion, cyberpsychosis and system reset.

By 'not using' those two, it's more for extracting the components to sell for eurobucks, and focusing more on body, reflexes and cool for a more direct run and gun style of fighting.

Course, against weaker enemies, now, I'm just using charged up gorilla arms to beat the crud out of them. Faster than waiting for quickhacks, fancy that.

Contagion plus system shock is sufficient to kill pretty much everything. Overheat for bosses. Without them being legendary it’s a little harder but not much.

With only 5 points in reflexes and 20 cool I’m still head shotting people for 10k+ damage with my assault rifle which still one shots almost everyone on very hard.

[Spacewolf]

Spoiler: Judy Quests

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Just finished her quests and they are quite a good self contained cyberpunk story, when it came to the choice of who to side with I went with the kill em all option since I got the feeling the new doll the clouds owner was talking about was Judy. So even though I knew it'd end badly I killed her as well, even if it wasn't she seemed like she needed shooting so oh well. Final mission was sweet although I didn't try and romance. (Not sure if that's even an option for a male V. I'd guess not based on the dialog and all that.) So far she's been my favourite character, the others have mostly fallen flat, so glad she managed to get out.

In other news crashes are down a good way on my PS4, mono wire is good fun, and I think they might have put a heavy fog over night city in one of the patches since I never noticed it so much until now.

[sihnfahl]

Contagion plus system shock is sufficient to kill pretty much everything. Overheat for bosses. Without them being legendary it’s a little harder but not much.

Yeah, it just becomes a waiting game with non-legendaries.

And are you thinking synapse burnout, the one that does damage scaling based off how much health the target has lost?

[druid91]

So what are you guys hoping for as far as DLC?

Honestly, I know it's a pipe dream, but I'd love to see one DLC per ending. Each continuing the story from there while adding in some mechanical element to the overall game.


Spoilers obviously.

Spoiler: Endings

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Firstly, since so far of the two I've tried it's the most interesting to continue.

Spoiler: Where is My Mind

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I'd really like to see this continued with some kind of Robot-V in a buddy cop scenario with Takemura as they track down an enemy of Arasaka, that happens to be V's younger brother or sister. Mechanically, add in various drones that can be controlled remotely, in the main campaign you launch them from your car and in the DLC you'd maybe *Be* a nightrider/Delemain style car that can process V's Relic.

Spoiler: All Along the Watchtower

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Don't really have any details for it, beyond that it's a possible ending, but the Panam/Aldecaldo's ending would be neat to see V trying to find some kind of cure out in the wastelands, plus mechanically a bunch of the car customization and more military grade vehicles to own. I was rather upset that you couldn't mount a heavy machinegun to your personal vehicle.

Spoiler: Path of Glory

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For Path of Glory, some upgrades to night city itself, re-adding properties you can buy, little stuff to just improve the city. Story wise it would be cool to see V trying to basically become head of the Night City Underworld as they try to make enough money to buy, or get enough influence to steal, a cure for their condition.

Spoiler: New Dawn Fades

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Honestly, this would probably be about Johnny doing his thing. Being a rock-star, probably going after what's left of Arasaka with Yorinobu in charge. Mechanically it would be cool if they added some sort of charisma or presence stat in that 'missing' stat opening at the bottom of the stat page that lets you do Rockerboy nonsense like whipping up riots via music, or talking your way out of stuff.

[Yora]

I've been thinking something like a Samurai DLC would be fun. Maybe just two or three hours of a Johnny Silverhand adventure of complete Rockerboy mayhem.

[sihnfahl]

I've been thinking something like a Samurai DLC would be fun. Maybe just two or three hours of a Johnny Silverhand adventure of complete Rockerboy mayhem.

Lots of ear-tearing rock, big guns, joytoys, drinking, drugs ...

"Had to replace your liver. The old one looked like a shriveled up bag..."

[Yora]

Having now played 80 hours (and still not sure if I am halfway done), I noticed that even though I really enjoy the story that I saw so far, I still only remember a single time where I actually could make a real choice. Which was about clearing the Money-Chip for Maelstom all the way at the beginning, and which I now know did not really change anything.
There are several occasions where I can pick between different dialog options, but the options are merely about how confrontational or conciliatory you want to speak. There never seem to be points where you are faced with two different paths and have to pick from. So despite my initial perception of the game, I think the replayability of the game might not actually be that great. Combat isn't that engaging that I would want to try out playing through the game with different combat and equipment styles.

[druid91]

Having now played 80 hours (and still not sure if I am halfway done), I noticed that even though I really enjoy the story that I saw so far, I still only remember a single time where I actually could make a real choice. Which was about clearing the Money-Chip for Maelstom all the way at the beginning, and which I now know did not really change anything.
There are several occasions where I can pick between different dialog options, but the options are merely about how confrontational or conciliatory you want to speak. There never seem to be points where you are faced with two different paths and have to pick from. So despite my initial perception of the game, I think the replayability of the game might not actually be that great. Combat isn't that engaging that I would want to try out playing through the game with different combat and equipment styles.

There's plenty of room to make different choices that actually effect things. Not the ending. But the journey is a big part of the game.

[sihnfahl]

There never seem to be points where you are faced with two different paths and have to pick from.

Eventually there are, in order to get the different endings, but some of the quests along the way are, by design, localized due to the actors involved.

Course, if you do a lot of those NCPD jobs, you'll end up POing the actors before anyhow. Most of the gangs really DO NOT like me and were already hostile to me before I got involved in the main job quests. I guess it's my murderhobo tendencies in this run that said: oh, this goon with a random name has a bounty on them? Time to collect creds and gear (I've hit 50 in street and level, so no more XP for me...)

[Yora]

When I was getting a stolen car from the 6th Street gang, I had taken out most of them stealthily but the last five stood in places that made it impossible to get them all without an open gunfight. While taking out all the others, I noticed that pretty much all of them were missing several limbs, being all army, security, and mercenary veterans.
I checked the five guys remaining and they all were only wanted for vandalism and harrasment of politicians and corpos, with only a single one being wanted for attempted murder. And I'm not trusting the police that he really tried to murder a politician. Those are no reasons to gun five men down from an ambush.
So I just sneaked into the now unguarded car and breezed past them out the open gate.

The game does have many neat small adventures that you make for yourself.

[sihnfahl]

I checked the five guys remaining and they all were only wanted for vandalism and harrasment of politicians and corpos, with only a single one being wanted for attempted murder.

Those are just the crimes they think pursuing. Dystopian where the average joe is disposable, and the corpos rule.

The gangers, even the Sixth Street guys, follow leaders who delve in protection rackets and extortion, and aren't above sending 'messages' to people who don't pay out.

That they're ex-military in such an environment seems to make it worse for my V's perceptions.

Initially, they did start out noble. Protection, revitalization ... but now? They use extortion, protection rackets, etc...

[Corsair14]

Really enjoying the hell out of this game. Decided to stop watching all the "how to's" as I would prefer not to be super OP and do things my own way. I do look for individual items in order to make my character match the imagery I am going for. I haven't seen any yet, but is there any cool futuristic looking carapace type armor and helms out there in game, like the DocWagon team that dropped in the first scene or the militech guys wear? I am trying to make a cool cyber spec ops sniper guy and instead find myself looking like a reject from Goodwill with a big nerf gun.

Also, has anyone heard any plans to have a 3rd person view implemented outside the photo thing and mirrors? Kind of weird being stuck in the 1st person all the time after playing so many other games that have the option for either of them.

[sihnfahl]

I haven't seen any yet, but is there any cool futuristic looking carapace type armor and helms out there in game

Yes, there are. Unfortunately, they're random drops.

YES, you can buy things at a store, but ... preview isn't much of a thing before you buy, and the clothing is easily several hundred a piece.

[Spacewolf]

At least theirs a third person driving for vehicles 1st person feels like driving on an ice rink while wearing horse blinders.

Edit: apparently if you're on PC theirs a mod that sets you to third person camera and yea there's not going to be on official third person mode for this game, they definitely have alot of shortcuts.

[Rynjin]

There was NEVER going to be a third person mode for the game. It's not a "cut corner" any more than Halo not having a third person mode is.

Not every game needs a third person mode. The rampant obsession over this before the game came out drove me nuts.

[Squark]

There was NEVER going to be a third person mode for the game. It's not a "cut corner" any more than Halo not having a third person mode is.

Not every game needs a third person mode. The rampant obsession over this before the game came out drove me nuts.

I think it was talked about early in development, but cut out years ago because they wanted to focus on a single perspective.

Which is born out by just how... Uncanny the 3rd person animations are. Melee in particular is comical.

[InvisibleBison]

YES, you can buy things at a store, but ... preview isn't much of a thing before you buy, and the clothing is easily several hundred a piece.

That's what the quicksave button is for.

[Spacewolf]

There was NEVER going to be a third person mode for the game. It's not a "cut corner" any more than Halo not having a third person mode is.

Not every game needs a third person mode. The rampant obsession over this before the game came out drove me nuts.

Shortcuts arnt the same as Cut corners hell most first person games have you as a floating arm and some disembodied legs. I was just saying their won't be a third person mode coming ever.

[Chen]

Yeah, it just becomes a waiting game with non-legendaries.

And are you thinking synapse burnout, the one that does damage scaling based off how much health the target has lost?

Short circuit I meant not system shock. The one that does electrical damage. Its a huge hit with a tiny damage over time effect. But it one shots pretty much anything so there’s no real need for the higher RAM cost ones.