Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CVIII

[Gruftzwerg]

@ Handle Animal

I don't get why you have problems with HA? There are enough base classes that give it and if I don't want want em, I know of at least 2 feats to get HA as class skill. Open you mind, it is really not that hard to get access to HA. I would recommend to look at the base classes aside from core too, there are a few really promising classes that could work as a base.

[AvatarVecna]

@ Handle Animal

I don't get why you have problems with HA? There are enough base classes that give it and if I don't want want em, I know of at least 2 feats to get HA as class skill. Open you mind, it is really not that hard to get access to HA. I would recommend to look at the base classes aside from core too, there are a few really promising classes that could work as a base.

The complaint isn't that it's too difficult to get Handle Animal or too big an investment, it's that it's dumb the class has a prereq that doesn't seem to tie into the fluff or mechanics of the PrC at all.

[Gruftzwerg]

The complaint isn't that it's too difficult to get Handle Animal or too big an investment, it's that it's dumb the class has a prereq that doesn't seem to tie into the fluff or mechanics of the PrC at all.

The prc locates their targets via Urban Tracking. You don't need to follow stupid footprints and waste time doing so. The fastest way for mundane characters is a mount.
Further dogs and other animals for regular "Track" can be handy.

And there is a cheesy trick to abuse Handle Animal:
People tend to use watch-dogs or other "trained" animal to guard their properties. A simple "Handle an Animal" check (DC 10) and the animal does one trick he knows that you command him to do so. The skill doesn't require you to own the animal, it just needs to be trained in the skill you command him to do.

[AvatarVecna]

The prc locates their targets via Urban Tracking. You don't need to follow stupid footprints and waste time doing so. The fastest way for mundane characters is a mount.
Further dogs and other animals for regular "Track" can be handy.

And there is a cheesy trick to abuse Handle Animal:
People tend to use watch-dogs or other "trained" animal to guard their properties. A simple "Handle an Animal" check (DC 10) and the animal does one trick he knows that you command him to do so. The skill doesn't require you to own the animal, it just needs to be trained in the skill you command him to do.

The theoretical ability to spend your action on maybe wasting the action of an enemy guard dog isn't nearly as good as you seem to think it is; animals just aren't that big of a threat or an obstacle. Additionally, unlike normal Tracking (where a good enough bonus lets you travel faster and suck up a penalty for tracking at faster speeds), Urban Tracking has a set time frame - it doesn't matter if you're using Urban Tracking while riding a snail or an epic dragon, it still takes the same amount of time.

I said Handle Animal didn't really fit with the fluff or mechanics of the actual PrC, and you countered with "Handle Animal isn't literally useless for you, therefore it has synergy". No. That's not what synergy is. The class doesn't give you an animal companion/special mount, nor does it advance an existing one. It doesn't grant you bonuses to Handle Animal, it doesn't grant you new uses of Handle Animal, and it doesn't remove some restrictions of the Handle Animal skill. It just requires a skill that has literally nothing to do with your class' fluff or mechanics. Being good at Handle Animal doesn't do anything to assist with your PrC features, and none of your PrC features do anything to assist you with Handle Animal checks. The same cannot be said for Intimidate, which gets an upgrade, a loosened restriction, and a slight bonus from class features, and yet that skill only has 4 ranks required.

If you made a build that had absolutely phenomenal use of the Handle Animal skill that just happened to have all ten levels of Crimson Scourge, you'd get a boost to your power score and a penalty to your UotSI score.

[Gruftzwerg]

The theoretical ability to spend your action on maybe wasting the action of an enemy guard dog isn't nearly as good as you seem to think it is; animals just aren't that big of a threat or an obstacle. Additionally, unlike normal Tracking (where a good enough bonus lets you travel faster and suck up a penalty for tracking at faster speeds), Urban Tracking has a set time frame - it doesn't matter if you're using Urban Tracking while riding a snail or an epic dragon, it still takes the same amount of time.

I said Handle Animal didn't really fit with the fluff or mechanics of the actual PrC, and you countered with "Handle Animal isn't literally useless for you, therefore it has synergy". No. That's not what synergy is. The class doesn't give you an animal companion/special mount, nor does it advance an existing one. It doesn't grant you bonuses to Handle Animal, it doesn't grant you new uses of Handle Animal, and it doesn't remove some restrictions of the Handle Animal skill. It just requires a skill that has literally nothing to do with your class' fluff or mechanics. Being good at Handle Animal doesn't do anything to assist with your PrC features, and none of your PrC features do anything to assist you with Handle Animal checks. The same cannot be said for Intimidate, which gets an upgrade, a loosened restriction, and a slight bonus from class features, and yet that skill only has 4 ranks required.

If you made a build that had absolutely phenomenal use of the Handle Animal skill that just happened to have all ten levels of Crimson Scourge, you'd get a boost to your power score and a penalty to your UotSI score.

k, missed the fixed time Urban Tracking has, sry.

But that doesn't change my statement. Sure, having more synergy on the skill would be nice, but that is a rare thing. Most prc that have skill requirements don't have any kind of special synergy. It's just, you need this cause it's a common requirement. I could list most knowledge skills, spellcraft, professions and even things like tumble/jump are common requirements that barely see any synergy within a prc, other then that it is occasionally used.

And I see how it can fit the fluff. As mentioned the use of hunting/tracking dogs/animals fits the theme. A mount to cover longer distances to get to your target is also part of bounty hunters life. The ability to manipulate possible enemy watchdogs or mounts into your favor is also fitting the fluff.

Compare it to an Incantatrix:
Needs Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft with each 8 ranks. It doesn't give any synergies nor does it make use more than the base class that enters the prc. It's just a requirement that fits the fluff of the prc.

A crimson scourge seems to be envisioned as bounty hunter that makes use of trained animals from time to time. But if you want, you can ignore that you have the skill. Just like a Incantatrix can be played with a minimal amount of use for the skills required. It's up to you, if you follow the base that was envisioned or not.

Special synergy for required skills ain't that common imho.

[AvatarVecna]

And I see how it can fit the fluff. As mentioned the use of hunting/tracking dogs/animals fits the theme. A mount to cover longer distances to get to your target is also part of bounty hunters life. The ability to manipulate possible enemy watchdogs or mounts into your favor is also fitting the fluff.

Spoiler: Cityscape Quote

Show

"Don’t worry. I’ll see that the package is delivered unharmed. Well . . . mostly unharmed."
--Geddrik the Whip

In the fantasy world as well as the real world, the reach of the law sometimes isn’t enough. When a criminal is on the loose, or a prisoner has escaped, professional bounty hunters offer their services to bring in the fugitive. Additionally, in some urban fantasy settings, the slave trade is just an accepted fact of life. And just as a rancher sends herders after stray cattle, so too must a slaver hire specialists to track down and recover lost or escaped slaves.

Whether they are independent crime-fighters assisting the law or grim mercenaries who hunt living property, such trained specialists are called crimson scourges. These fearsome trackers are known not only for their efficiency, but for their zealous commitment to the task at hand. Crimson scourges are dedicated - at least to the handsome sums they earn.

BECOMING A CRIMSON SCOURGE
The crimson scourge is a tough and efficient tracker who specializes in dealing painful but ultimately nonlethal wounds. Scourges hail almost exclusively from the ranks of barbarians, fighters, and rangers, though the occasional dedicated warrior might join their ranks as well. Druids can qualify almost as quickly, but most fi nd a scourge’s work distasteful or unfulfilling. All other classes either cannot meet the alignment and/or skill requirements, or must reach higher levels before qualifying to become a crimson scourge.

PLAYING A CRIMSON SCOURGE
You are an unusual creature: someone capable of being stealthy and subtle, but who rarely needs to be. People like you aren’t called “crimson scourges” for nothing. Your very existence serves as a deterrent against escape. If you are neutral-aligned, you likely don’t deserve much of what’s said about you, but it’s against your financial interests to set the record straight. If you’re evil, it’s probably all true.

Your relationship with your employer is the most important thing for you. Whether or not your loyalty is genuine, without the safety of your patron, your numerous enemies would not hesitate to pounce. You prefer to work alone, but sometimes scourges are hired in pairs—nominally for their safety, but mainly to keep tabs on a suspect hunter.

COMBAT
Crimson scourges never shy away from combat, and more often than not they will instigate a fight just to prove a point. Most of your skills revolve around tracking and disarming (and often humiliating) a single individual. You’re not terribly effective in fights involving multiple foes, so bravado is a large part of your combat ability: If you can intimidate your opponent into backing down, you’ve won without striking a single blow. If melee is inevitable, focus on making the most of your abilities. Strike at unarmed assailants first, to try to take them out of combat quickly, and then move to disarming those who carry weapons so you can do the same to them.

ADVANCEMENT
Unless you are in business for yourself, your advancement potential relies heavily upon a slavers guild or patron organization. The more successful you are at what you do, the more rapidly you’ll advance. Sometimes an employer or guild sends scourges out in pairs—one junior tracker and one veteran. Although true friendship between them rarely blooms, the elder usually ends up taking on the role of mentor.

You were already a competent tracker before becoming a true scourge, but you should continue to make hunting skills a priority when the time for skill point allotment arrives. Before a single blow is landed, your strongest advantages in combat are your reputation and your perceived ability to back up that reputation. Make sure that Intimidate is as high a priority as Gather Information. Focus your feat selection on developing tricks of the trade, such as Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Trip, and Improved Sunder.

RESOURCES
Depending on its size and public persona, a slavers guild usually funds its scourges’ retrieval efforts...provided it has concrete information on where a target has gone, and it has a good idea of what the operation will cost. If you’re a member of the guild and possess the Favored feat, then you’re entitled to such aid should you ask for it. If you are in the employ of a wealthy patron, you can receive some compensation for your expenses, especially if you have performed satisfactory work for that employer before.

Your work often takes you into areas with no guild presence or where slavers are reviled (if you are a hunter of slaves), or into the underworld (if you pursue criminals). In those environments, you’re on your own. For this reason, be sure to fix the terms of employment before venturing out after a quarry.

CRIMSON SCOURGES IN THE WORLD
"They provide a necessary service, of course. But I do wish they could be a bit more...discreet."
--Lord Beaumond Richhierre, second-tier magistrate

Crimson scourges are suitable for almost any city. They can appear in areas with little to no slave trade, focusing entirely on escaped criminals, or be in the employ of slavers guilds but hunting in areas where escaped slaves have fled. On occasion, a slavers guild sends a pair of scourges into a town where the trade hasn’t yet blossomed. The scourges quietly investigate factors such as the rich–poor divide, the socioeconomic dynamic, and the attitude of the ruling class toward indentured servitude, evaluating the potential for a new market.

ORGANIZATION
Crimson scourges have little organization unto themselves. Aside from the mentor–student relationship that develops between pairs, they neither want nor need additional complication in their lives. The only structure that the scourges recognize is an informal system of rank, based upon a combination of achievement and reputation. The more successful the scourge, and the more fearsome his reputation, the more respect he gains from his peers. Nonevil scourges also depend on successful retrievals but value independence far more than ferocity; A scourge who can dictate his own terms earns more respect in the eyes of his peers than one known only for intimidating his quarry.

Daily life for the average scourge consists of countless hours of training and waiting, interspersed with frenetic bouts of activity. Scourges have to keep themselves sharp, but unless they’re on active assignment, they have little to do but wait. For this reason, crimson scourges often take assignments as bodyguards or enforcers, serving either the guild or independent parties. In some cases, a scourge is retained permanently, which provides him or her a steady stream of work. Non-evil scourges tend to refuse exclusivity arrangements. Only by committing to a job and then leaving immediately upon success can such scourges maintain their objectivity and independence.

NPC REACTIONS
By their very nature, scourges elicit fear and unfriendly suspicion from those they meet. Other people might still be helpful to a scourge, but out of fear rather than admiration or respect. Only slavers react to them more favorably than unfriendly, and even they are usually indifferent.

CRIMSON SCOURGE LORE
Characters with ranks in Knowledge (local) or bardic knowledge can research crimson scourges to learn more about them. When a character makes a successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including the information from lower DCs.

DC 10: Slavers guilds and city watches sometimes use fearsome trackers to hunt down fugitive criminals and escaped slaves.

DC 15: These so-called crimson scourges are highly skilled not only in hunting their quarry but in causing pain without dealing lethal injury. They are known for their callousness.

DC 20: Crimson scourges have a talent for dealing massive amounts of pain to unarmed opponents, and for disarming opponents who might otherwise provide a threat. The best of them feel no pain at all.

CRIMSON SCOURGES IN THE GAME
The crimson scourge fills a specific enough niche that a DM can easily work the class into a campaign under the assumption that the PCs have simply never heard of the scourges before (especially if none of the PCs have ever been in an area with a slavers guild).

Players who enjoy search-and-recover adventures, as well as those who embrace the challenge of a morally complex character, might be drawn to the crimson scourge class. As an NPC, a scourge makes an excellent adversary, whether encountered on the trail of a PC who is an escaped slave, or as a threat to an acquaintance or relative of a party member.

ADAPTION
The crimson scourge is suitable for just about any urban campaign setting. Even if your setting features no slavers guild, slaves probably exist somewhere. And as long as there are fugitives, whether criminals on the run or missing property, there will always be crimson scourges to bring them in. In a setting without slaves, the class might be associated with a variant organization, such as a thieves or assassins guild. Scourges might even form the retrieval arm of a cult that endorses slavery, in which case every scourge would be a member of the cult.

SAMPLE ENCOUNTER
A character who has reason to encounter a scourge probably has reason to quarrel with him, too. Most run-ins with crimson scourges take place in the midst of recovery operations, while the scourge is tracking down a fugitive. In these situations, a scourge is less inclined to banter or negotiate.

EL 9: Almost every scourge takes care to foster a nasty reputation, but the soon-to-be infamous Geddrik Raud—the so-called “Whip”—is making an art form out of it. He takes the nickname of his trade literally, scourging the backs of recaptured slaves for every misstep on the way back to their owners. When the PCs encounter him, he is just about to recover his latest target: the child of an escaped slave, whom Geddrik intends to use as leverage against the mother.

Geddrik’s arrogance could be his undoing. He refused to partner up with a mentor, and he might have to flee if the PCs get the drop on him or are tougher than the unarmed wretches the Whip is used to bullying.

This is the whole of the fluff text for Crimson Scourge. Go ahead and do a Ctrl+F through for things like "animal", "beast", "mount", and the like. Or just read through the whole thing. Animals never come up, because this is a slave-catcher class, and training animals isn't ****ing relevant. Probably the funniest bit to me is that the sample build, that lvl 9 guy mentioned at the end there, is a Ranger 5/Crimson Scourge 4. His animal companion doesn't get a single mention, and he only has just enough Handle Animal to qualify for the class. You know why he doesn't bother taking the skill further? You know why they didn't bother listing his ranger 5 companion for a lvl 9 fight? BECAUSE IT'S IRRELEVANT.

If a frenzied berserker invests in the Speak Language skill cross-class because he's being played as a natural linguist by the player, that doesn't mean that the Speak Language skill suddenly fits the fluff of the frenzied berserker class, nor does it mean the Speak Language skill suddenly has synergy with the commoner class features.

Compare it to an Incantatrix:
Needs Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft with each 8 ranks. It doesn't give any synergies nor does it make use more than the base class that enters the prc. It's just a requirement that fits the fluff of the prc.

K (Arcana) is a skill that certainly only fits the fluff of the PrC, in that it's a class designed around intimate magical knowledge. But Spellcraft? The lvl 2 and 3 abilities, which for the majority of your career are the good stuff you're getting out of Incantatrix, require Spellcraft checks. If you invested in Spellcraft just to meet the prereqs and then never touched it again, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot. If you invested in Handle Animal purely for prereq purposes on Crimson Scourge, and then never touched it again, you wouldn't lose out on a single class feature, and you wouldn't lose out on any of the fluff of the class. And we know that's the case, because the freaking sample character does that exact thing, and even ditches his animal companion.

A crimson scourge seems to be envisioned as bounty hunter that makes use of trained animals from time to time. But if you want, you can ignore that you have the skill. Just like a Incantatrix can be played with a minimal amount of use for the skills required. It's up to you, if you follow the base that was envisioned or not.

It's literally not tho. "Makes use of trained animals from time to time" literally comes up nowhere in the fluff. You're only convincing yourself that it does because the class has the skill as a prereq, even though by your own admission there's a lot of classes that have weird nonsensical skill prereqs.

Special synergy for required skills ain't that common imho.

I don't disagree with this point: most PrCs end up having a skill pre-req that's just there to gatekeep the class and doesn't actually tie into much of anything. War Weaver pretends that you need Craft/Weaving to be good at weaving spells into your allies - because thread and magic are the same thing, right? But that's not the point you were making, or that I was arguing against:

You: "Oh come on, it's just a useless feat and skill tax, what's the problem?"

Me: "The problem is that it's not doing anything for this class."

You: "It is if you pretend the rules are different."

Me: "But the rules aren't different, so it's not doing anything for this class."

You: "It can fit with the fluff if you pretend the fluff is different, and besides who even needs ability synergy?"

Me: "Except it literally doesn't fit the fluff."

To return to your Incantatrix example: if that class has Handle Animal as a skill prereq, it'd be just as stupid as it is here. Nobody is going to stand up and say "why doesn't Incantatrix require the Handle Animal skill, it fits the fluff so well", and the reason nobody would stand up and say that is because IT DOESN'T FIT THE FLUFF. If this class didn't require the Handle Animal skill, nobody wouldn't be standing up to say that for this class either, and you know why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT THE FLUFF HERE EITHER.

and I don't even know why you're trying so hard to convince people that it's relevant - by your own account, a lot of classes have dumb skill prereqs. Why are you trying so hard to convince people that this is the exception, and that it's actually a very relevant skill to this class?

[H_H_F_F]

I think part of the reason the handle animal requirement has brought this attention is because it excludes gather information as a class skill for many entries that would otherwise use skilled city dweller to get it. Gather information has much more to do with Crimson Scourge, both fluff and mechanics wise.

It would weirdly make more sense if the SI required at least 5 ranks of gather information instead of 4, as that would actually exclude characters without native gather information proficiency from the earliest entry. As is, characters from these classes can still enter - it's just a weird, nonsensical skill tax that forces a less thematically and mechanically appropriate choice. My best guess is that it was designed to force out the classic city oriented classes, but I'm not sure why - and just demanding 4 or 5 bab would have achieved the same thing much more elegantly.

I've seen some concern around speculation this round, which I think may have referred to this issue. If that's the case, I disagree - I really don't think this level of general discussion should be regarded as speculation. As the chair said in the Primeval round, regarding Piggy's comment on speculation rules:

It was always more self or peer-enforced than chair-enforced. I'm fine with discussion, I'd just like to avoid people saying "man x is the perfect entry class for y ingredient."

[daremetoidareyo]

Another line of argument that supports avatar vecnas point is:

No one is complaining about the 1 rank in heal.

I think that it differs from handle animal prerequisite in that you can actually understand how a slave catcher or bounty hunter of live quarry might need to know how to stabilize an over damaged person. Or how the prestige class features highlight a mastery of pain.

Heal isn’t mentioned in the fluff at all either, but the obvious uses of the skill actually lend themselves in an explanatory fashion to the crimson scourge.

In contrast, handle animal is less obvious than ride. If you’re hunting people, you gotta move faster than them. And yeah, we can imagine the use of dogs or horses using scent to find people, but 8 ranks for something that has zero support in either the fluff or mechanics seems rather steep. Especially when every other skill requirement is more directly and thematically tied to what the class actually is and does

[AvatarVecna]

Another line of argument that supports avatar vecnas point is:

No one is complaining about the 1 rank in heal.

I think that it differs from handle animal prerequisite in that you can actually understand how a slave catcher or bounty hunter of live quarry might need to know how to stabilize an over damaged person. Or how the prestige class features highlight a mastery of pain.

Heal isn’t mentioned in the fluff at all either, but the obvious uses of the skill actually lend themselves in an explanatory fashion to the crimson scourge.

In contrast, handle animal is less obvious than ride. If you’re hunting people, you gotta move faster than them. And yeah, we can imagine the use of dogs or horses using scent to find people, but 8 ranks for something that has zero support in either the fluff or mechanics seems rather steep. Especially when every other skill requirement is more directly and thematically tied to what the class actually is and does

It's also worth mentioning that scent isn't that great for tracking people: the Track feat plus scent means you can ignore the visibility increase to the DC, but following a trail by scent gets +2 DC per hour behind you are, as opposed to the +1 DC per day behind you are that standard tracking has for humanoids. A ranger 4 should have Survival +8 at least, and will have just gotten a dog or wolf that has +5 when tracking by smell. The ranger 4 has to take the penalty for tracking by moonlight, or through fog/precipitation, which puts him at +5 as well, but if they're even a single hour behind their quarry, the ranger 4 is better. That's assuming basic skill point investment by the ranger, at the lowest level a ranger can even have an animal companion, and the ranger is still objectively better at tracking in 99% of situations. And the discrepancy gets worse the higher level the ranger gets, especially if he PrCs out and stops advancing his animal companion. And that's not even touching on whether Darkstalker should reasonably affect the ability to track you by scent at all.

A dog/wolf whose feats/skills can be optimized for tracking would be a completely different story, but that's just not how the animal rules work most of the time...and even then it'd just be slightly more competitive. Long story short: any prey that could be caught more easily with the help of a bloodhound is prey you were going to catch anyway, and any prey that would be difficult for you to catch isn't going to be easier to catch with the assistance of a bloodhound.

[Troacctid]

I suspect that the class, being geared towards catching slaves, uses Handle Animal as a proxy for, uh, handling slaves, which, uh...😐

[AvatarVecna]

I suspect that the class, being geared towards catching slaves, uses Handle Animal as a proxy for, uh, handling slaves, which, uh...😐

That's as good a theory as any. Oh, and I would have zero complaints if this class required you to be a cat with the Handle Humanoid skill.

(Also if we wanna be technical wait, no, shouldn't talk about that, that's definitely speculation.)

[The Viscount]

I suspect that the class, being geared towards catching slaves, uses Handle Animal as a proxy for, uh, handling slaves, which, uh...😐

You know, I had a similar thought, and then I stopped thinking about the class for a while.

[Wildstag]

I suspect that the class, being geared towards catching slaves, uses Handle Animal as a proxy for, uh, handling slaves, which, uh...😐

Yeah... that's something I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[Falontani]

I have a mostly complete table. I haven't started to work on fluff yet...

[eversilentone]

I have a mostly complete table. I haven't started to work on fluff yet...

I'm the reverse! Desperately trying to find something that will mechanically fit my fluff and struggling! It's "interesting" trying to use the SI - not sure I'm going to do a great job there, but having a blast so even a rubbish score and last place will be fun :)

[Gruftzwerg]

I have a mostly complete table. I haven't started to work on fluff yet...

I'm the reverse! Desperately trying to find something that will mechanically fit my fluff and struggling! It's "interesting" trying to use the SI - not sure I'm going to do a great job there, but having a blast so even a rubbish score and last place will be fun :)

I could say that I've completed both, the fluff and the table. But I still have problems to solve (which could cause me to change the table..)..^^ Everybody has his problems to manage

good luck to all of you.

[Khatoblepas]

I have a build put together, and fluff, but I'm struggling to word how to use the build in any sane way, its fighting style is just a bit wacky and niche but at the same time I'm a little worried that someone might have had the same idea as me and implemented it better than me. I haven't built a 3.5 character in a long while.

When it's time to submit, who do I DM it to again?

[WhamBamSam]

I have a build put together, and fluff, but I'm struggling to word how to use the build in any sane way, its fighting style is just a bit wacky and niche but at the same time I'm a little worried that someone might have had the same idea as me and implemented it better than me. I haven't built a 3.5 character in a long while.

When it's time to submit, who do I DM it to again?

DM to the chair, Viscount.


I've got a build in. Contemplating whether or not to submit a second with all the extra time we've got this round.

[Korahir]

DM to the chair, Viscount.


I've got a build in. Contemplating whether or not to submit a second with all the extra time we've got this round.

I have 4 stubs fleshed out. Not sure if I end up submitting a build. This ingredient is painful to work with. No pun intended.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm suffering from too many options. I have a build core idea, and a fluff idea for it that I'm kind of tickled by. But too many options for fine-tuning it. (I have another different idea that I might flesh out if I can make time.)

I'm somewhat resenting the last three levels of this class, though. There are so many ways to augment a good build that require losing 1, 2, or 3 levels of the SI. And those three don't offer much that the build needs. (Scent as the capstone is really meh.)

Scoring question for those with more experience, or for those who have judged. Does the use of SI penalty scale? That is, if you don't take the full SI, do you get more of a penalty for only taking 7/10 as opposed to only missing one level (9/10), assuming that you can justify using that (or those) levels for options that enable better power, originality, elegance?

[The Viscount]

In my experience the penalty may scale somewhat, but not very linearly. The difference between 9 and 10 levels tends to be more than the difference between 7 and 9. "Did you finish the ingredient" is often a component of a judge's score for UotSI, but it's not the only question.

[AvatarVecna]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I will say two things about that:

1) I take off a quarter point for every missing SI level, and I add half a point if you finished it. This means the difference between SI 9 and SI 10 is at least 0.75 points. Additionally, depending on how mechanically girthy the capstone is, and how many abilities you're making good use of from elsewhere in the SI, it's possible that making good use of the capstone would be enough to upgrade your score another quarter-point, although that's mostly gonna depend on just how much use you're getting out the SI elsewhere. This rubric ends up giving most level something like +0.6 worth, and gives the final level something like +1.0 worth (at least, for maximum potential per level). Given the idea behind the contest, I give more scoring leeway to people who finished the class. Yes, it's not worth taking to 10th level. That's the point: if you went on the actual iron chef competition and the secret ingredient was whole milk, and you used skim instead, you'd lose points with the judges for your lower percentage.

2) I'm not fond of the mentality behind the question that's less about building around the Secret Ingredient, and more about building around the judges.

[Hiro Quester]

The question was not about building around the judges, but having an informed assessment of the rubrics used for scoring, to calculate whether it's better to finish the SI completely, or sacrifice a bit of use of SI for more power, elegance, and/or originality.

[AvatarVecna]

The question was not about building around the judges, but having an informed assessment of the rubrics used for scoring, to calculate whether it's better to finish the SI completely, or sacrifice a bit of use of SI for more power, elegance, and/or originality.

That's kinda exactly what I'm talking about tho. You're not building based on how Elegant you think this option vs that option is, or how powerful you think this option vs that option is, or whatever. You're asking the question because you're trying to figure out how to optimize your build's chances at getting a good score based on a particular judge's standing rubric. Instead of thinking it through for yourself about whether what you're giving up from that last level in both power and presentation is worth whatever else you could get for those resources, you're trying to feel out what the judges will let you get away with.

You're trying to make build decisions based on how you think the judges will judge things, and because you're not confident in your ability to assess that for yourself, you're asking for a cheat sheet so that you can give yourself the best chance at a high score by knowing what this judge or that judge might penalize you more or less for. That's definitionally building around the judges.

[H_H_F_F]

With less than a week left until the deadline, how is everyone doing?

[Khatoblepas]

I got my entry in, I don't think I can do any more with it since it gives me a headache to think about. Hopefully it's weird and novel enough to at least be a fun build to look at.

[WhamBamSam]

I've got everything but fluff written for a second submission. I dithered a little over whether to bother doing another build, but I'm actually really happy with how it turned out.

[Hiro Quester]

I have a submission mostly built, and partly fluffed.

I have another more “out there” stub of a build that seems promising. I hope I can make time during this (busy) week to get that one also built out enough to determine its viability.

[H_H_F_F]

Guys, due to unforseen circumstances, the villainous competition currently has no judge. Would anyone be willing to step up? It would be greatly appreciated!

[Gruftzwerg]

With less than a week left until the deadline, how is everyone doing?

I didn't had much time the past week, due to real life..

But the build is set into stone, I got the tables, fluff text seems complete. I'm still writing some explanations and stuff. I hope it will be finished the next days... so that I can return to finish my almost complete "Itachi Uchiha" build, that has been paused for the last month..^^