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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Assume I have a human druid 5 / MOMF 7 and wild shape into another human.

    I assume that I could try to wild shape and could temporary exchange my human bonus feat.

    IMHO, it becomes the last instance of the same effect (human bonus feat) and thus should suppress my original choice.

    Is my assumption right? And if not why (pls point me to RAW with quotes if possible).

    Thank you in advance ;)

    EDIT:
    My intention is to make a split personality character who picks Sacred Vow as Human Bonus Feat and to switch it in his "evil" form xD

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    this is ambiguous. ask your dm.

    iirc the argument is
    "human bonus feat is not a "bonus feat". there is no listed human stat block with the "b" superscript next to the human bonus feat".

    or something like that iunno. technically theyre right because human bonus feat is never said to be a racial bonus feat or something like that iunno.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-19 at 06:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    I'd personally allow it, as it makes for an interesting character. Other than that, I have no idea what the official Raw with it is.

    If you go for it, I'd suggest an Elf instead that chaos shuffles his Bonus Feats for this.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    this is ambiguous. ask your dm.

    iirc the argument is
    "human bonus feat is not a "bonus feat". there is no listed human stat block with the "b" superscript next to the human bonus feat".

    or something like that iunno. technically theyre right because human bonus feat is never said to be a racial bonus feat or something like that iunno.
    My intention is a showchase in the forums, so I am already asking the "DM(s)"^^
    Aren't the starting packages in the PHB not enough as evidence (e.g human fighter). The human bonus feat follows the same syntax as the fighter bonus feat.
    Finally, since we can try to turn into specific characters it would fitting if I where to assume his selected bonus feat. The way I see it, is that you should be able to wild shape into any legal human bonus feat for a 1st lvl char.


    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    I'd personally allow it, as it makes for an interesting character. Other than that, I have no idea what the official Raw with it is.

    If you go for it, I'd suggest an Elf instead that chaos shuffles his Bonus Feats for this.
    well I'm stuck with the MOMF and the Human race choice for my actual build. It just would be cool if I could make the split personality work by RAW (in combination with Sacred Vow feat line).

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    My intention is a showchase in the forums, so I am already asking the "DM(s)"^^
    Aren't the starting packages in the PHB not enough as evidence (e.g human fighter). The human bonus feat follows the same syntax as the fighter bonus feat.
    Finally, since we can try to turn into specific characters it would fitting if I where to assume his selected bonus feat. The way I see it, is that you should be able to wild shape into any legal human bonus feat for a 1st lvl char.
    your gonna have to catch me up here as i dont really use wild shape

    wild shape is as alternate form ability except noted here
    Quote Originally Posted by alternate form
    A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

    The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
    The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
    The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
    The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
    The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
    The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
    The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
    Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
    The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
    The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
    Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
    i am not seeing anywhere that it says you getting racial bonus feats. not even in rules compendium.
    alter self explicitly says you get the racial bonus feats so thats why the argument exists but im not seeing anywhere that wild shape gets feats of its new form.

    so lets start there.
    show me the rule that says wild shape gets racial bonus feats like alter self does
    Quote Originally Posted by alter self
    You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
    and then from there we need to decide whether by raw the bonus feat humans get is a "racial bonus feat" or just an untyped bonus feat.

    and then from there we need to figure out whether polymorphing into a human who chose the feat you want as their bonus feat counts as polymorphing into a specific or general creature.

    lots of hurdles

    1.wild shape grant feats?
    2. human bonus feat classified as racial bonus feat?
    3. can you polymorph into a specific creature with the feat you want chosen for its bonus feat? or does it work a different way as in you get to select the bonus feat?
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-19 at 09:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    If you are stuck as a human, maybe Chameleon class for that floating bonus feat you can swap each day?

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    your gonna have to catch me up here as i dont really use wild shape

    wild shape is as alternate form ability except noted here


    i am not seeing anywhere that it says you getting racial bonus feats. not even in rules compendium.
    alter self explicitly says you get the racial bonus feats so thats why the argument exists but im not seeing anywhere that wild shape gets feats of its new form.

    ...
    1. There are options to enhance Wild Shape to Humanoid Shape (see Master of Many Forms)

    2. It's the Master of Many Forms ability at lvl 7:
    Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.
    As far as I know all feats are (EX) abilities unless otherwise mentioned. So, basically you should get the human bonus feat.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    I don't think it works if you're already a human, as you've already got that bonus feat. Sort of like if an Elf wild shapes into another Elf, they won't get an additional +2 to listen, search, and spot.

    However, if you're not already human you'll also get the bonus skill points! So if you need to make a particular skill check, Wild Shape into a human, use that bonus feat to make it a class skill or just get Skill Focus if it already is, put max ranks in it, then make your check.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I don't think it works if you're already a human, as you've already got that bonus feat. Sort of like if an Elf wild shapes into another Elf, they won't get an additional +2 to listen, search, and spot.

    However, if you're not already human you'll also get the bonus skill points! So if you need to make a particular skill check, Wild Shape into a human, use that bonus feat to make it a class skill or just get Skill Focus if it already is, put max ranks in it, then make your check.
    I didn't imply to stack em twice. Imho the original bonuses would be irrelevant until the newest instance of the same effect (human bonus feat/skills) ends.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    1. There are options to enhance Wild Shape to Humanoid Shape (see Master of Many Forms)

    2. It's the Master of Many Forms ability at lvl 7:


    As far as I know all feats are (EX) abilities unless otherwise mentioned. So, basically you should get the human bonus feat.
    ex abilities arent ex special qualities right? ex special quality is like regeneration not feats.

    yeah i dont recall any shapechanging giving you feats other than racial ones. so i dont think you get any feat from wild shape.

    there are...
    ex attacks
    ex special qualities
    ex abilities

    like if you look at the monsters here
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm
    none of them have power attack listed as a "special quality" despite having the feat.

    so wild shape does not grant racial bonus feats. one of the clauses in alternate form directly say that you retain your own feats, nothing about gaining feats in the new form.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    As far as I know all feats are (EX) abilities unless otherwise mentioned. So, basically you should get the human bonus feat.
    Feats are "Ex" unless states, but the possession of a bonus feat is not in itself a feat and so is not "Ex" unless specifically stated (which it isn't).

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    1. There are options to enhance Wild Shape to Humanoid Shape (see Master of Many Forms)

    2. It's the Master of Many Forms ability at lvl 7:


    As far as I know all feats are (EX) abilities unless otherwise mentioned. So, basically you should get the human bonus feat.
    While feats default to (Ex), that's not necessarily true of the abilities that grant them. The human's ability to select an additional feat is a natural ability, not an extraordinary ability, even though the feat itself is most likely (Ex). Also, it applies at 1st level during character creation, so you can't necessarily gain it from a shapeshifting effect. Furthermore, bonus feats in general are not considered special qualities (they have their own, separate line in statblocks), so it doesn't actually matter that they're (Ex). And finally, alternate form says the creature retains its own feats—it doesn't gain the feats of the new form.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    While feats default to (Ex), that's not necessarily true of the abilities that grant them. The human's ability to select an additional feat is a natural ability, not an extraordinary ability, even though the feat itself is most likely (Ex). Also, it applies at 1st level during character creation, so you can't necessarily gain it from a shapeshifting effect. Furthermore, bonus feats in general are not considered special qualities (they have their own, separate line in statblocks), so it doesn't actually matter that they're (Ex). And finally, alternate form says the creature retains its own feats—it doesn't gain the feats of the new form.
    I don't think that they default to natural abilities because:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Natural Abilities

    This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
    While the second sentence defaults everything unlabeled to NA, the first ability excludes mental abilities. And HBF is a mental "fast learning" ability.
    IMHO the sole category that makes sense (for HBF) would be EX. It ain't a spell/like ability nor a magical supernatural ability, which leaves EX as sole option.

    And my last argument would be "text trumps table". As long as the there is text that supports that HBF has to be a extraordinary special quality the table is irrelevant. We have seen enough dysfunctional tables in 3.5 so far. Just because the tables don't reflect the extraordinary special quality source anymore doesn't change the source of that ability.


    edit: I don't think the 1st lvl restriction for HBF is a problem here. We can assume that Wild Shape transforms you into a 1st lvl equivalent of the target creature type by default if it doesn't have a fix HD. In chase of humans that would be a "commoner 1". You have to keep in mind that wild shape forms represent just matured fresh out of the box versions (referring to stats! not visually!) of the desired form.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    I don't think that they default to natural abilities because:


    While the second sentence defaults everything unlabeled to NA, the first ability excludes mental abilities. And HBF is a mental "fast learning" ability.
    IMHO the sole category that makes sense (for HBF) would be EX. It ain't a spell/like ability nor a magical supernatural ability, which leaves EX as sole option.

    And my last argument would be "text trumps table". As long as the there is text that supports that HBF has to be a extraordinary special quality the table is irrelevant. We have seen enough dysfunctional tables in 3.5 so far. Just because the tables don't reflect the extraordinary special quality source anymore doesn't change the source of that ability.


    edit: I don't think the 1st lvl restriction for HBF is a problem here. We can assume that Wild Shape transforms you into a 1st lvl equivalent of the target creature type by default if it doesn't have a fix HD. In chase of humans that would be a "commoner 1". You have to keep in mind that wild shape forms represent just matured fresh out of the box versions (referring to stats! not visually!) of the desired form.
    you need to show us the rule that says feats or racial feats are a extraordinary special quality.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    you need to show us the rule that says feats or racial feats are a extraordinary special quality.
    The Special Abilities section covers that. A Special Ability has to fall under one of the 4 options mentioned there: Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like.

    I have provided arguments in my last post why it can't be natural, supernatural or a spell-like ability and thus has to be an extraordinary ability.

    Can you disprove it?

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The Special Abilities section covers that. A Special Ability has to fall under one of the 4 options mentioned there: Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like.

    I have provided arguments in my last post why it can't be natural, supernatural or a spell-like ability and thus has to be an extraordinary ability.

    Can you disprove it?
    theres nothing to disprove because you havent proven anything.

    polymorph says you get extraordinary attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities.
    feats are stated to be an extraordinary ability.

    nowhere in d&d i can find has feats ever been stated to be an extraordinary special quality.
    spells like shapechange don't say they give you all of the feats of the monster your turning into.

    so extraordinary abilities are further split into
    extraordinary attacks
    extraordinary special qualities
    and everything that is extraordinary but is not an attack or a special quality.

    like the gargoyles freeze ability
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm
    its an extraordinary ability but neither an attack or a special quality.

    you need to show that feats are extraordinary special quality. calling them an extraordinary ability is not enough to call them a special quality.

    so either show a rule text saying feats are an extraordinary special quality
    or that all extraordinary abilities must be classified as an attack or special quality
    or that shapechange gives all of the target creatures feats like power attack, weapon focus, multiattack, etc.

    but thats not possible because alter self directly states racial bonus feats are physical qualities and you gain them while at the same time you dont get extraordinary special qualities of your new form. so the two are separate categories.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-20 at 05:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Look at stat blocks. Human bonus feats are under feats. Not special attacks or special qualities.

    Not to mention the PHB describes feats as natural ability which by extention is validated by the alter self spell with racial feats.

    Alternate form does not give you all the physical qualities of your new form which also means you don't get racial feats.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    There's an argument to be made that human racial traits are (Ex) special qualities.
    I don't think there's a statblock for a basic human, but the racial traits of all the other standard player races are (Ex), according to the MM.

    It's made more difficult to judge because this is handled inconsistently.
    According to Fiend Folio even type and subtype traits are (Ex) special qualities, MM4 and 5 general list type traits under special qualities and MM5 iirc explicitly lists monsters with (Ex) innate spellcasting.
    Other books don't list type or race boni at all, but they also don't actively contradict that specification.

    So for the sake of consistency it has to be assumed that race, type and subtype traits are (Ex) unless specified otherwise.

    As to the existence of some kind of third category of special ability, according to the MM:
    Quote Originally Posted by Special Attacks and Special Qualities
    Many creatures have unusual abilities, which can include special
    attack forms, resistance or vulnerability to certain types of
    damage, and enhanced senses, among others. A monster entry
    breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities. The
    latter category includes defenses, vulnerabilities, and other special
    abilities that are not modes of attack.
    A special ability is either
    extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su).
    Emphasis mine.

    There are only special attacks and special qualities. Any special ability that doesn't fall into the first category is automatically in the second.

    Racial bonus feats are (Ex) special qualities unless specified otherwise, but the ability to gain feats is not.
    Since you can only polymorph into generic creatures that means you only get racial bonus feats, not any feats the creature could pick itself.

    That aside the human bonus feat is technically not a feat itself, it's the racial trait allowing you to pick an extra feat, so any rule concerning bonus feats isn't applicable anyway.

    The only question is if human racial traits are (Ex) or not.
    I'm not aware of any statblock explicitly stating so one way or the other, but all the other player race traits are so i'd say it's at least a fair assumption to make.

    Edit: Clarification
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-20 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    theres nothing to disprove because you havent proven anything.

    polymorph says you get extraordinary attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities.
    feats are stated to be an extraordinary ability.

    nowhere in d&d i can find has feats ever been stated to be an extraordinary special quality.
    spells like shapechange don't say they give you all of the feats of the monster your turning into.

    so extraordinary abilities are further split into
    extraordinary attacks
    extraordinary special qualities
    and everything that is extraordinary but is not an attack or a special quality.
    MM page6 disagrees with you. The paragraph about "Special Attacks & Special Qualities" calls both as "Special Ability" out. And both can be either extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like. Same as in the SRD:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Special Abilities

    A special ability is either extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural in nature.
    Which leads to the conclusion that an extraordinary ability can only either an Ex attack or an Ex quality. There is nothing else, contrary to what you are suggesting with your last line.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1
    like the gargoyles freeze ability
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm
    its an extraordinary ability but neither an attack or a special quality.
    Look again, it's a special quality and mentioned last in the line.

    _____________________

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Look at stat blocks. Human bonus feats are under feats. Not special attacks or special qualities.

    Not to mention the PHB describes feats as natural ability which by extention is validated by the alter self spell with racial feats.

    Alternate form does not give you all the physical qualities of your new form which also means you don't get racial feats.
    As far as I know we only have starting package statblocks for humans, if you can point me to more accurate one for a generic human I would be happy.

    Further the HBF itself and all feats (unless otherwise mentioned in the feat) are extraordinary abilities ( either EX attacks or EX qualities). Feats aren't magical by default, thus they can't be spell-like or supernatural by default (which are both magical). Exceptions exist and are called out as such or indicating that they are magical.

    and I already explained that MOMF lvl 7 gives it... but I'll repost the quote again for you
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Many Forms lvl7:
    Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.
    MOMF gives you past lvl7 all extraordinary special qualities (= extraordinary non attack special ability).
    Base Wild Shape gives you all extraordinary special attacks

    Conclusion, we have EX special attack + EX special qualities = all EX abilities

    ____________________

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    There's an argument to be made that human racial traits are (Ex) special qualities.
    I don't think there's a statblock for a basic human, but the racial traits of all the other standard player races are (Ex), according to the MM.

    ....

    The only question is if human racial traits are (Ex) or not.
    I'm not aware of any statblock explicitly stating so one way or the other, but all the other player race traits are so i'd say it's at least a fair assumption to make.

    Edit: Clarification
    It is easy to proof that human racial traits can only be EX abilities. You just need to look up the 4 possible categories and their distinctions.

    1. It can't be a Natural Ability since those are tied to your physical form. HBF and feats are by default mental abilities since you learn em and they aren't physical abilities that you get because of the physical form of your race.

    2&3. They can be Spell-like or Supernatural. Since neither the HBF nor feats in general are magical (exceptions exist as noted in those specific feats) they don't fit in here.

    4. But they (HBF and feats in general) fit into the Extraordinary category very well.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Extraordinary Abilities
    Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

    These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

    Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.
    Sounds like HBF and feat in general to me.

    edit: gramma and text structure. sorry it's early and I just woke up... -.-
    to prevent further misinterpretations I'll corrected the passages: 1, 2&3

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 87
    A feat is a special feature that either gives your character a new capability or improves one he or she already has.
    A feat is a feature not an ability. Stat blocks literally have their own section specifically for feats. Racial bonus feats are a feature of racial traits. Alternate Form, and by extension Wild Shape, does not give you racial traits.

    I would even argue that even Alter Self would not let you get the human bonus feat. It's not even given a designation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 13
    1 extra feat at 1st level, because humans are quick to master specialized tasks and varied in their talents. See Chapter 5: Feats.
    The extra feat is literally "1 extra feat at 1st level." As you aren't first level, it would be impossible to benefit from this trait. Compare it to elves:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB, pg 16
    Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Profi-ciency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. Elves esteem the arts of swordplay and archery, so all elves are familiar with these weapons.
    The human trait is an extra feat at first level. The elven trait is proficiency which gives bonus feats. One is a trait while the other is a feature of a trait.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    A feat is a feature not an ability. Stat blocks literally have their own section specifically for feats. Racial bonus feats are a feature of racial traits. Alternate Form, and by extension Wild Shape, does not give you racial traits.

    I would even argue that even Alter Self would not let you get the human bonus feat. It's not even given a designation.



    The extra feat is literally "1 extra feat at 1st level." As you aren't first level, it would be impossible to benefit from this trait. Compare it to elves:



    The human trait is an extra feat at first level. The elven trait is proficiency which gives bonus feats. One is a trait while the other is a feature of a trait.
    Have you read any of the quotes I posted?

    Just because Feats have their separate line in the statsblock doesn't change the fact that the sole Special ability category they can fit into is EX. If you still don't want to believe it, have a look at the statement in BOED page 39 in the Exalted Feats paragraph:
    Quote Originally Posted by Exalted Feats
    These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being
    extraordinary abilities, as most feats are
    ).
    The quote shows without any doubt that non-exalted feats default to "Extraordinary Abilities" unless otherwise mentioned.

    yeah it's a 1st lvl ability. So what? Wild Shape turns you in a generic matured state of the target creature type. And how much lvl/HD has the most generic adult human (hint: commoner/npc 1)? Yeah 1st lvl. That is the generic form you are shaping into. So where is the problem?

    I have provided you enough rules over the past posts that feats are EX abilities by default. Unless you can point me to rules that say otherwise, accept it as a fact pls.

    ____________________

    The question to solve is still "how it is resolved when a human wild shapes (as MOMF 7) into another human".
    Does he lose his original HBF or does he get to pick second HBF for the duration of Wild Shape?

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The question to solve is still "how it is resolved when a human wild shapes (as MOMF 7) into another human".
    Does he lose his original HBF or does he get to pick second HBF for the duration of Wild Shape?
    According to the rules of Alternate Form you explicitly keep your feats.
    So since you already have a bonus feat from being human i'd have to say you get nothing.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The quote shows without any doubt that non-exalted feats default to "Extraordinary Abilities" unless otherwise mentioned.
    Even if I believed that to be the case, you are missing one thing: they aren't classified as a special attack or quality. Which makes sense as they have their own category.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    yeah it's a 1st lvl ability. So what? Wild Shape turns you in a generic matured state of the target creature type. And how much lvl/HD has the most generic adult human (hint: commoner/npc 1)? Yeah 1st lvl. That is the generic form you are shaping into. So where is the problem?
    You are taking the shape. Alternate Form does not tell you you get to pick your form's HD as you get to keep your own. If it doesn't tell you you can do it you can't do it. As such, your level remains a minimum of 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The question to solve is still "how it is resolved when a human wild shapes (as MOMF 7) into another human".
    Does he lose his original HBF or does he get to pick second HBF for the duration of Wild Shape?
    You would have already possessed the trait. Becoming yourself doesn't give you something extra. Not to mention "bonuses from the same source don't stack," aka human racial trait.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Even if I believed that to be the case, you are missing one thing: they aren't classified as a special attack or quality. Which makes sense as they have their own category.
    Just because the table doesn't reflects that, that doesn't mean that they have their own category. I have presented rules in text form, where you can categorize em without causing any dysfunctions, while you make claims that the table doesn't reflect this rule. Text trumps table. We have rules how any kind of Special Ability (Attack / Quality) has to be categorized and you just ignore em.

    You are taking the shape. Alternate Form does not tell you you get to pick your form's HD as you get to keep your own. If it doesn't tell you you can do it you can't do it. As such, your level remains a minimum of 12.
    I never implied that your level changes. I said, that Wild Shape can only transform you into a generic adult version of the targeted race (statwise, not appearance), which for a human is commoner 1 stats. Pls don't twist my words.


    You would have already possessed the trait. Becoming yourself doesn't give you something extra. Not to mention "bonuses from the same source don't stack," aka human racial trait.
    As far as I can recall this is a rule regarding "modifiers", thus can only apply when some kind of dice roll is involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stacking
    In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
    Unless you can point me to other rules where stacking effects from the same source causes problems, I have to guess that you just misremembered the rule I just quoted.
    Further, if your assumption would be true, Fighter Bonus Feats would need to call out that you may stack em. But they don't, since the rule you are thinking of only applies to rolls and not to bonus feats.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    gargoyle is my oversight but still, show me one instance in d&d where shapechange gave all the feats of the target creature to the wizard. because thats what your saying here.

    you are saying
    1. all ex abilities must be either special qualities or attacks
    2. since all feats are ex abilities and not attacks, they are special qualities
    3. therefore if you use momf to turn into an aboleth mage you get Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration.

    if thats the case then sign me up im gonna abuse the **** out of polymorph spells, but i cant help but think your completely wrong here, or at least your current line of reasoning.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-21 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    gargoyle is my oversight but still, show me one instance in d&d where shapechange gave all the feats of the target creature to the wizard. because thats what your saying here.

    you are saying
    1. all ex abilities must be either special qualities or attacks
    This is RAW. I quoted the relevant text earlier in the thread. All special abilities that aren't modes of attack are special qualities.

    2. since all feats are ex abilities and not attacks, they are special qualities
    I'm pretty sure BoED is the only place that says so. At least i don't know of any other rule that explicitly tells us that feats are (Ex).
    And it's not all feats. Reserve, Psionic and Exalted feats are (Su) and Domain feats are SLA's iirc.

    But yes, assuming that feats are (Ex) unless specified otherwise would make them special qualities, since every special ability that's not an attack is a special quality by default.

    3. therefore if you use momf to turn into an aboleth mage you get Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration.
    An Aboleth Mage is just an Aboleth with 10 levels of wizard. You can't wild shape into one.
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-21 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    An Aboleth Mage is just an Aboleth with 10 levels of wizard. You can't wild shape into one.
    your still saying if i shapechange into a solar i get
    Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Power Attack, Track

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    I'm pretty sure BoED is the only place that says so. At least i don't know of any other rule that explicitly tells us that feats are (Ex).
    And it's not all feats. Reserve, Psionic and Exalted feats are (Su) and Domain feats are SLA's iirc.

    But yes, assuming that feats are (Ex) unless specified otherwise would make them special qualities, since every special ability that's not an attack is a special quality by default..
    ill look for it later and post if i find it anywhere else too.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    your still saying if i shapechange into a solar i get
    Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Power Attack, Track
    If they were (Ex), which i remain unconvinced of.
    I'd rather assume that BoED is wrong. It would hardly be the first time and it's very suspicious that the core books do not mention this anywhere, i've checked.

    But the RAW on special abilities is explicit. If it's not a special attack it's a special quality. There is no third category.

    So if feats turn out to be (Ex) unless specified otherwise you'd get them via Shapechange. Not that it'd matter at that point, but it's relevant for MoMF or Enhance Wild Shape too.

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    2 quotes from the 3.5 Main FAQ

    1)

    Page 39 of BE it states that exalted feats are supernatural abilities and not extraordinary abilities like other feats. Does that mean that I lose the benefits from my exalted feats in an antimagic field?

    Correct. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the benefits granted by exalted feats are considered supernatural abilities and thus don’t function in areas of antimagic. Some of the special abilities granted by the Vow of Poverty (and described under "Voluntary Poverty” on pages 29–31) are specifically described as extraordinary (such as the natural armor bonus gained at 8th level). These abilities are retained in areas of antimagic, even if other abilities from the same feat (or from other exalted feats) are not.
    So the FAQ sees no issue in the statement that Feats default to EX abilities.
    Further, as what would you otherwise categorize em? I have shown several times that all other options are invalid. And there is nothing in the (Special Abilities) rule indicating other noncategorized abilities. Conclusion = it has to be one of the mentioned options.

    2)

    When my human uses polymorph* to take the form of another creature, he loses any extraordinary special attacks and qualities. Does this include his bonus feat and bonus skill points? If so, how do I figure out which feat and skill points are derived from his racial traits?

    A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities, and thus are lost when the character would lose such abilities (including when polymorphed). This is a good reason to keep track of which feat is your human bonus feat, since it might have wide-reaching effects. (For instance, if Dodge was your bonus feat, you’d lose the benefits of any other feats that have Dodge as a prerequisite, such as Mobility and Spring Attack.)
    Keeping track of where your bonus skill points are spent is more onerous, and likely less significant to play. If most of
    your skills are maxed out (that is, their rank equals your level +3, or half that for a cross-class skill), it’s probably easiest
    simply to designate one skill as the repository for all your bonus skill points.
    For ease of play, some DMs ignore this side effect, but doing so represents a clear benefit granted to humans. Be aware that players of nonhuman characters can resent this “freebie.”
    *The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self spell to duplicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based on he metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of these lists.
    Here is another proof that a Human's Bonus Feat is undisputedly an EX ability/quality.
    While the Polymorph line does lose their own race's Special Qualities, this is not true for Wild Shape which is based on
    Quote Originally Posted by Alternate Form
    - The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
    - The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
    and for completeness sake:
    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Many Forms lvl7 ability
    Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.

    I hope this should clear all doubts.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1
    your still saying if i shapechange into a solar i get
    Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Power Attack, Track
    Yes, this is RAW if you wasn't aware of how broken Shapechange is. We are talking about a 9th lvl spell of a broken T1 class here. One of the reasons why the Epic Fighter doesn't look so epic anymore behind a 17th lvl wizard.

    Bonus Round:
    I realized just now, that you would also get the regular 1st lvl feat of the human you are wild shaping into... = 2 floating feats *WIN*WIN*

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    Default Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    So the FAQ sees no issue in the statement that Feats default to EX abilities.
    Further, as what would you otherwise categorize em? I have shown several times that all other options are invalid. And there is nothing in the (Special Abilities) rule indicating other noncategorized abilities. Conclusion = it has to be one of the mentioned options.
    There's always the option that feats are their own thing and not Special Abilities (in the RAW sense) at all. Which is RAW unless BoED is on the table.

    Here is another proof that a Human's Bonus Feat is undisputedly an EX ability/quality.
    The FAQ is a lot of things, but it's only very rarely considered "proof" of anything. Mostly because it has an unfortunate habit of contradicting both the RAW and itself.

    It's certainly not deserving of the term "undisputed" in any sense.

    Edit: not that i disagree that the human racial traits are (Ex), but the FAQ is not a source of RAW.

    Bonus Round:
    I realized just now, that you would also get the regular 1st lvl feat of the human you are wild shaping into... = 2 floating feats *WIN*WIN*
    I have no idea how you've reached this conclusion. You never get feats that aren't listed in a statblock, no matter the answer to the previous questions.
    Just because the human racial trait mentions the 1st level feat doesn't mean you get an extra one in addition to the bonus feat, no matter how permissive the reading.
    Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-21 at 06:09 PM.

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