OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

[TheNecrocomicon]

That's what everyone said about Hilgya.

You will notice that Hilgya exited stage left while completely alive and in one piece, in contrast to Miko being dead, blasted and bisected, and explicitly rejected as undead warrior material by a relative expert in the subject.

A vessel can be a whole lot of things, and by that page alone, I'm still not sure how people assume the vessel is a person. If I remember correctly, it's because of the Sabine part, where people were assuming she was seducing the vessel she was out to get? But "mixing work and pleasure" can be interpreted in many ways. Like, when you've got a work meeting abroad, and your friend says you'll be "mixing work and pleasure", that friend is probably not saying that you'll be having so much fun at the meeting that it'll count as pleasure, the friend is probably suggesting that you'll take advantage of your time over there to sight-see or the like. Like, maybe the vessel is a bowl, and she's going to seduce the current owner to get it.

All we know is that there is a vessel, that Sabine is out to fetch, that it's probably not singular ("a proper vessel", thus one of many options), and that it's probably related to the artifact. But again, maybe not. It /could/ be a person, I'm certainly not denying that possibility, but it could also just as well be an item, which could for example serve as a focus for the artifact, or it could even be a boat, to sail the river Styx with a doomsday army for example. I can't think of any possible examples for the third definition, though (tube/conduit).

It could also be a construct of some sort, magical or otherwise, which renders the "vessel" both not a person and not a definite object.

But yes, I am taking the treatment of Sabine's task as being evidence -- obviously not proof -- that the targeted "vessel" is most likely a person and not an object. It also strikes me how they use the vaguest terms possible with respect to "vessel", obviously to keep us guessing and haggling as is currently underway. Were it another "artifact", I think it's likely it would have been referred to as such, instead of using the vaguer noun that they (i.e. Mr. Burlew) did.

This "artifact" is intended to power or catalyze somehow the IFCC's plot to more directly interfere on the mortal plane. Earlier, when explaining things to the imp, they stated they could "only act directly on the mortal plane when [they're] making a deal". Clearly this is at least part of their way around that. If they possess someone, or I guess something, to serve as their "vessel", they could then have the loophole excuse that their "vessel" is doing the acting and not them. Key part is that something needs to be acting on their behalf, which generally an object can't do.

[Mic_128]

I'm inclined to agree with your last statement, and don't know what the fiends have planned (Stop the end of the world? Unleash the Snarl? Murder the Dark One? Hold out for favors in the New World? Not a clue...)

At the very least they were wanting the Gods to unravel the world. "I suppose it was too much to hope the gods would do our work for us."

[Riftwolf]

At the very least they were wanting the Gods to unravel the world. "I suppose it was too much to hope the gods would do our work for us."

Which makes me think their plan doesn't factor in the Outsider formatting between worlds.
It could be the world-reset is a win for the IFCC in the same way as it'd be a win for the Dark One. In that it's a perfectly reasonable assumption if you don't have all the variables, but it won't work.

[Peelee]

Which makes me think their plan doesn't factor in the Outsider formatting between worlds.

I've operated under the idea they are part of the group who gets mind-wiped for some time now.

[Skull the Troll]

I've operated under the idea they are part of the group who gets mind-wiped for some time now.

They could be aware but not care. They said that what they want (when tempting V) was ceaseless, unending conflict. Another world reset keeps things going as they have been for trillions of years. Allowing the snarl to be permanently contained stops all that.

[Ariko]

What everyone requires in a vessel - it must have a pestle.

In which case the artifact must be a flagon, preferably emblazoned with a powerful, perhaps fire-breathing creature. Apparantly chalices are too fragile.

...It's been a slow day...

I managed to watch that movie again just before it stopped being free on Prime at the end of December.

[TheNecrocomicon]

They could be aware but not care. They said that what they want (when tempting V) was ceaseless, unending conflict. Another world reset keeps things going as they have been for trillions of years. Allowing the snarl to be permanently contained stops all that.

Permanent containment of the Snarl has no bearing on whether the world at large is or isn't consumed with ceaseless, unending conflict. There's a thematic parallel, but no actual causal relationship in-universe.

The IFCC have also stated that they want to storm the Upper Planes and slaughter everyone there. All the non-material planes do not depend on there being a physical world, other than for the worship of the inhabitants thereof.

I am not sure why the IFCC want the world destroyed, but possibly they're just omnicidal nihilists who want everything destroyed, or maybe they only intend it as a prelude to or opening salvo of their long-desired invasion of the Upper Planes. Wiping out so many worshippers is bound to shock even godly pantheons, possibly disrupting them enough that the IFCC could then take advantage of the chaos to further their own purposes.

[Skull the Troll]

Permanent containment of the Snarl has no bearing on whether the world at large is or isn't consumed with ceaseless, unending conflict. There's a thematic parallel, but no actual causal relationship in-universe.

The IFCC have also stated that they want to storm the Upper Planes and slaughter everyone there. All the non-material planes do not depend on there being a physical world, other than for the worship of the inhabitants thereof.

I am not sure why the IFCC want the world destroyed, but possibly they're just omnicidal nihilists who want everything destroyed, or maybe they only intend it as a prelude to or opening salvo of their long-desired invasion of the Upper Planes. Wiping out so many worshippers is bound to shock even godly pantheons, possibly disrupting them enough that the IFCC could then take advantage of the chaos to further their own purposes.

Possibly, I wonder if they know that the deaths of all the gods means their planes would be destroyed as well.

[Mic_128]

I've operated under the idea they are part of the group who gets mind-wiped for some time now.

Same, but with them talking about that artefact that they were going to fire up, I'm wondering if they've found a way to stop being wiped after learning about the existence of the gates/snarl.

[Riftwolf]

Same, but with them talking about that artefact that they were going to fire up, I'm wondering if they've found a way to stop being wiped after learning about the existence of the gates/snarl.

This relies on them somehow finding out about the mind wipe when I don't recall anyone with that information willing to tell them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Never doubt the espionage capabilities of the Lower Planes. They are past masters at finding out the stuff you want to keep hidden.

[nocoolnamejim]

Permanent containment of the Snarl has no bearing on whether the world at large is or isn't consumed with ceaseless, unending conflict. There's a thematic parallel, but no actual causal relationship in-universe.

The IFCC have also stated that they want to storm the Upper Planes and slaughter everyone there. All the non-material planes do not depend on there being a physical world, other than for the worship of the inhabitants thereof.

I am not sure why the IFCC want the world destroyed, but possibly they're just omnicidal nihilists who want everything destroyed, or maybe they only intend it as a prelude to or opening salvo of their long-desired invasion of the Upper Planes. Wiping out so many worshippers is bound to shock even godly pantheons, possibly disrupting them enough that the IFCC could then take advantage of the chaos to further their own purposes.

Didn't Thor say something to the effect of there being more evil gods than good ones? Wiping out that many worshippers probably would put a bit of a whammy on the bad guys too in this hypothetical scenario would it not?

[danielxcutter]

Didn't Thor say something to the effect of there being more evil gods than good ones? Wiping out that many worshippers probably would put a bit of a whammy on the bad guys too in this hypothetical scenario would it not?

It'd also give a large burst of Devotion and a good number of Souls to last for the transitional phase, so...

[Metastachydium]

Didn't Thor say something to the effect of there being more evil gods than good ones? Wiping out that many worshippers probably would put a bit of a whammy on the bad guys too in this hypothetical scenario would it not?

So what? Last time I checked, Evil wasn't one big, happy family.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Didn't Thor say something to the effect of there being more evil gods than good ones? Wiping out that many worshippers probably would put a bit of a whammy on the bad guys too in this hypothetical scenario would it not?

Not quite - Odin says "There are fewer Good gods than Not-Good gods...".

...Where, presumably, the "Not-Good gods" are the neutral and evil gods.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And as the Godsmoot showed, alignment does not mean all gods vote on for lack of a better term party lines.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Possibly, I wonder if they know that the deaths of all the gods means their planes would be destroyed as well.

Would they though?

Not sure what Plane Valhalla is on, somewhere in the Chaotic Good corner I assume, your mileage may vary. Let's say Arborea or Ysgard for sake of arguement.

Let's assume Thor is correct, The Dark One is particularly opposed to him, and targets Valhalla. A couple things happen:

Source: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

First: It moves the gate upon which it is cast. Or rather allows A destination to be chosen later. So it's a one shot deal.

Second: RedCloak just betrayed Xykon, who will notice by his lack of sudden cosmic power. Events will unfold, one of them (at least) will die, the option of re-casting the ritual will be gone. Reasonable enough?

Third: The Dark One sends the gate, and the Snarl rips out Valhalla and whichever plane it resides upon.

Question: Can the Snarl then invade other planes? It can't leave the Prime now, why should it be able to leave 4 points in Prime and one in Outer to attack other Outer planes? (the four gates now destroyed, plus Kraagor's Gate which presumably gets moved?)

If Team Evil wins, and the Gods do not destroy the world (currently held up by red tape, "No backsies", and a quest to slay a great oak), then one outer plane is destroyed. Is there any reason to believe other planes are threatened until RedCloak (or his successor) finds another epic mage/sorcerer to cast the other half of the ritual, because Xykon isn't playing that game again.

[Peelee]

Didn't Thor say something to the effect of there being more evil gods than good ones? Wiping out that many worshippers probably would put a bit of a whammy on the bad guys too in this hypothetical scenario would it not?

More non-Good than Good. That includes Neutral. About a third each, ish, is my guess.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Once the Snarl is loose, Barak, it acts like any other creature. Which includes passing through a portal to a different plane if one is provided. All TDO nuking an Outer Plane gets him is at least one other god creating a portal from that plane to TDO's living room.

[BarakDeathBlade]

But this does NOT mean a daisy chain of dead planes, one by one as the Snarl rips through the Great Wheel.

Which would be my point, the IFCC does NOT have reason to believe they'll be targeted by TDO and the Snarl, so you lose an upper plane and get CONFLICT!

It could be their victory condition.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, there are also naturally occurring portals between planes, and all of them are connected to the others both at their flanks and through the Outlands (the TN plane). Given time, the Snarl will destroy everything and everyone.

Assuming other gods don't decide to just open a portal right in front of the Snarl to send it right to somebody they don't like, of course.

The Snarl is not a nuke, no matter how many people make that comparison. It's a universe buster.

[nocoolnamejim]

So what? Last time I checked, Evil wasn't one big, happy family.

I was more thinking that any harm done from wiping out a bunch of worshippers of good gods would probably similarly impact the evil gods if they suddenly lost a bunch of their followers.

Therefore I'm questioning whether the destruction of the world would really create any real strategic advantage for the lower planes in attempting to invade the upper planes.

I would think that both sides' forces would be more or less equally impacted by such an event.

[danielxcutter]

I was more thinking that any harm done from wiping out a bunch of worshippers of good gods would probably similarly impact the evil gods if they suddenly lost a bunch of their followers.

Therefore I'm questioning whether the destruction of the world would really create any real strategic advantage for the lower planes in attempting to invade the upper planes.

I would think that both sides' forces would be more or less equally impacted by such an event.

Aside from Hel, probably.

[Metastachydium]

I was more thinking that any harm done from wiping out a bunch of worshippers of good gods would probably similarly impact the evil gods if they suddenly lost a bunch of their followers.

Therefore I'm questioning whether the destruction of the world would really create any real strategic advantage for the lower planes in attempting to invade the upper planes.

I would think that both sides' forces would be more or less equally impacted by such an event.

Again, nominally the goal of the IFCC is rallying all three kinds of fiends against the upper planes. They do not appear to seek the approval or assistance of the Evil gods to do so (which is all too natural, since gods attacking gods is probably against the dumb god rules), and the existence of a non-compete clause between the archfiends and the Evil gods heavily implies that while the fiends do not (actively) work against the ventral gods, they do not work for them either.
Now, the transition period weakens the gods (who are either the enemies of the fiends or irrelevant from their perspective), while there is no indication that destroying the current Material Plane would decrease the number of fiends available for an offensive against the upper planes, which means that the IFCC has something to win and not much to lose if the world gets destroyed.

[KorvinStarmast]

It could be their victory condition.

That's kinda where I was going with that comment from the fiends.