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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Feels to me like a lot of TLJ fans are just projecting a whole bunch and seeing in the movie what they want to see, and not what they are actually being shown.
    I was under the impression that was because TLJ pushed themes instead of structure, forcing viewers to come up with their own idea of what the story the movie "told" actually was.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Wow, those are pretty strong words. You sure this isn't a Star Wars forum?
    It had been quite a while since the last comic, though it just came up. Thus goes the rule of this forum: the longer these threads go on, the more passionate they get about Star Wars.

    (or sometimes Miko, to spice things up)

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    One way to try to make this fit is that Luke went into spiritual/emotional free fall toward a very dark place after the end of Return of the Jedi. The reveal of Leia as his sibling burned him because he realizes that he's hot for his sister {and he's not a Targaryan nor a Lannister, sorry, had to go there}. Han remains Leia's love interest. Eventually they marry and have a child. Uncle Luke can't get over his desire for Leia, nor the jealousy of Han, so he becomes a hermit - kinda like Yoda did but for different reasons. On a day to day basis Luke can't deal with how much he grosses himself out every time he thinks of Leia.

    OK, that's one explanation (possibly a bit too icky and maybe a bit Freudian) for why Luke went off the grid and became a hermit. But it took a lot of work and yukkiness to get there.
    Obviously a lot of people are quite content to just imagine their own stories to fit whatever narrative they've got in mind. ;)
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  3. - Top - End - #573
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I was under the impression that was because TLJ pushed themes instead of structure, forcing viewers to come up with their own idea of what the story the movie "told" actually was.
    Well, I don't watch the star wars, but I am a big believer that screenwriting is structure, so, yeah.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I was under the impression that was because TLJ pushed themes instead of structure, forcing viewers to come up with their own idea of what the story the movie "told" actually was.
    Well, I don't watch the star wars, but I am a big believer that screenwriting is structure, so, yeah.
    I'm a big believer that themes are things that emerge from the story and it's structure, not things you push instead of the story.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Obviously a lot of people are quite content to just imagine their own stories to fit whatever narrative they've got in mind. ;)
    There are any number of stories and narrative tropes that boil down to "went and {became a hermit} / {entered a monastery or convent}1 due to {this terrible thing}" so I just cut and pasted that outline and filled in one of many possible excuses that fit with Star Wars story details.

    1King Arthur's King Arthur/Spouse Guinevere wife being one such; Maid Marian from Robin Hood being another, at least in the Connery/Hepburn version of Robin Hood's story

    I won't delve into the RL cases as I am not sure if that would be a forum rules violation ... but another version of that was Jeremiah Johnson, a Robert Redford (1970's) movie about a Mountain Man in the mid 1800's.
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  6. - Top - End - #576
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Well, I don't watch the star wars
    Any of them?
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  7. - Top - End - #577
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Well, I don't watch the star wars, but I am a big believer that screenwriting is structure, so, yeah.
    You should consider watchIng the firsts two. Theyíre not great art or anything. But theyíre watchable, and probably worth your time.

    Depending on how you feel after Empire, you might watch Jedi. You can safely skip the rest.

    (Iíve heard the cartoon is the best thing in the whole series, but who has time for that?)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Oh, I saw the original trilogy eventually. It was fine, the first two are good-- really not hard to see how the original's mythological qualities really connected with a lot of people. But it never hooked my interest as something I had to follow or be a fan of or engage with further.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    But it never hooked my interest as something I had to follow or be a fan of or engage with further.
    Star Wars is Harry Potter for old people.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Yeah, I'm of the age where basically none of the children's properties / franchises spun therefrom had a chance to get their hooks into me at a formative age. Either too young or too old for all of them.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Star Wars is Harry Potter for old people.
    Eh, I dunno. Star Wars is good.
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  12. - Top - End - #582
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Luke's character growth basically all happens off-screen. In RotJ, he's optimistic, hopeful, forgiving, brave, selfless. Next movie he shows up in, he's pessimistic, cowardly, self-loathing. No evolution is shown, we are simply told, later in the movie, that he "failed" Ben. So he just gave up.
    Yes. We return to the story 30 years after we last seen these people. Stuff happened in between, and we were not there to see it. The story picks up after the characters have lived much, and as it turns out, almost all of their lives. We get to see how they start it and how they finish it, but not how they lived it.

    After everything he endured before, we must now accept he just gave up. And decided to go live as a hermit in shame, and not actually try to fix his mess. "I made a monster, ok, cool, I'll just let others suffer for it." But, tack on "I'll leave a convoluted map hidden somewhere, so that someone under impossible circumstances could still come and disturb me, so that I may tell them to bugger off when they do somehow manage to find me". He gives up on Ben, despite that his defining character traits from all other movies is that he never gives up on saving people, even people otherwise portrayed as being irredeemably evil. Darth Vader killed a ton of kids and co-ruled as a space nazi, but, that was chill, "there's good in him". Ben, on the other hand, is constantly depicted as being conflicted, in both TFA and TLJ. Every time we see him, he's conflicted. But, nah fam, Luke just gives up, there's no saving him. Even when it was obvious to other characters, such as Rey, that he was conflicted and could be saved. Even if it was painfully obvious to the viewer that Kylo would have a redemption arc and "redemption equals death" at the end, from day one.

    Luke doesn't complete any character arc. It's not character growth that we see, it's character substitution. He doesn't evolve organically, he's basically just completely replaced by a new character by the film according to what the author wants him to be at any given time.
    I don't agree with that analysis. Luke, who never gives up on anyone, loses Ben (off screen),


    I'm sorry since you'll probably feel offended by what I said
    I don't agree with your analysis, but to assume offense is a bit silly, isn't it? As a rule of thumb, it's a good idea that if people disagree, it's not because one is offended by what the other said, but because they look at things differently. You said you don't know why people enjoy the movie, I explained why I enjoyed the movie, so now you know, then you go on some sort of tirade assuming that must offend me for some reason. Like you say, it is what it is. I don't particularly care about what you think about the movie, I just wanted to let you know why I enjoyed it, because, you know, you explicitly wondered about that.

    Your claim is utter rubbish, "acceptance in what is and isn't within reach" is completely contradicted by the movies themselves, since Kylo Ren was not canonically out of reach of redemption, being redeemed in the end, and the trilogy basically clubbing us with ridiculously overt hints that Kylo was not only redeemable, but that he indeed *would be* redeemed.
    To quote your beloved movie, "Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong".

    He's out of reach of redemption in TLJ. In that other movie, he's not. Different movies are different, and have different premises. It's not like they have to all have to live in the same world that must be entirely internally consistent in order to enjoy them -- or that Luke-Leiea kiss would be *really* awkward. There is no underlying truth that "really" happened in the fictional universe. Canon is just the assumptions the writers makes about their next movie. It's not that there is any higher truth to it than any other interpretation of the off-screen fictional events.

    I also love that you love this movie for a message that is basically "it's okay to just give up when it's hard, just let other people fix your problems".
    If you're not attacking strawmen here, you're just being intentionally obtuse. That's not what I said.

    I'm also pretty lost on how you drive a parallel with ANH to put them on similar standing, given how antagonistic the two movies fundamentally are, be it in terms of character arcs, themes, messages, etc.
    That suggests that you can't enjoy movies that have different character arcs, themes or messages.

    What I really don't understand here is why you first say you don't know why someone enjoys something, and when they tell you, tell them they are wrong and they shouldn't enjoy it. I hate to break it to you, but then you don't know what people enjoyed about it because you're unwilling to listen to them when they tell you because you personally didn't.
    Last edited by Martijn; 2021-01-23 at 06:42 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #583
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh, I dunno. Star Wars is good.
    Well, Iím an old person, so I agree with you.

    The characters in the original Star Wars were absolutely top notch. Darth Vader is part of the western mythology now; kids 500 years from now might know about Luke and Vader and the Sith and the Jedi the same way we know about Hercules today (and Iím only half kidding about this).

    And the universe is wonderful. Itís an immense place where almost any story is possible. Itís custom made for 1,000s of additions through an extended universe .

    I love Star Wars.

    But if I am being honest, I found most of the movies since Empire to be crap, and found the extended universe stuff to range from rarely inspired to usually absolute rubbish.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-01-23 at 12:29 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #584
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martijn View Post
    Yes. We return to the story 30 years after we last seen these people. Stuff happened in between, and we were not there to see it. The story picks up after the characters have lived much, and as it turns out, almost all of their lives. We get to see how they start it and how they finish it, but not how they lived it.


    I don't agree with that analysis. Luke, who never gives up on anyone, loses Ben (off screen),




    I don't agree with your analysis, but to assume offense is a bit silly, isn't it? As a rule of thumb, it's a good idea that if people disagree, it's not because one is offended by what the other said, but because they look at things differently. You said you don't know why people enjoy the movie, I explained why I enjoyed the movie, so now you know, then you go on some sort of tirade assuming that must offend me for some reason. Like you say, it is what it is. I don't particularly care about what you think about the movie, I just wanted to let you know why I enjoyed it, because, you know, you explicitly wondered about that.






    He's out of reach of redemption in TLJ. In that other movie, he's not. Different movies are different, and have different premises. It's not like they have to all have to live in the same world that must be entirely internally consistent in order to enjoy them -- or that Luke-Leiea kiss would be *really* awkward. There is no underlying truth that "really" happened in the fictional universe. Canon is just the assumptions the writers makes about their next movie. It's not that there is any higher truth to it than any other interpretation of the off-screen fictional events.



    If you're not attacking strawmen here, you're just being intentionally obtuse. That's not what I said.



    That suggests that you can't enjoy movies that have different character arcs, themes or messages.

    What I really don't understand here is why you first say you don't know why someone enjoys something, and when they tell you, tell them they are wrong and they shouldn't enjoy it. I hate to break it to you, but then you don't know what people enjoyed about it because you're unwilling to listen to them when they tell you because you personally didn't.
    Well people seem to get easily offended at the slightest disagreement, these days, and my words were not overly diplomatic, so that you aren't is to your honor.

    We are forced to go 30 years into the future because the actors have changed, and, yes, a lot can change in 30 years. Indeed, very few people don't change a bit whatsoever. Still, major character change is best done on-screen, instead of left as a side note. Given the constraints of the circumstances, I think it would have been best to have Luke change a little to moderately, since RotJ, and to have these changes shown to us gradually and in a relatable way, instead of huge changes through slapstick humor. Major changes should be reserved for on-screen plots.

    Similarly, Ben, and Luke's relation to him, is rushed. Anakin's fall, in comparison, was set up over 3 movies. Ben's fall is basically a footnote. As everything in the sequels, it's poorly explained. He was born from loving parents, in a loving family, with everything available to him... and turns genocidal. How many RL fascist leaders stem from pampered upbringings like this? Rhetorical question, don't give actual examples, because, well, rules. The Luke at night scene is far from enough to justify what happened next. And makes little sense on its own... Luke was so easily bested, allowing all other students to get slaughtered? And why would he slaughter them all?

    If the movies had at least depicted Ben as a total psychopath, then sure, maybe. A power-hungry narcissist, or something like that, then everything else would fall into place. But instead, he's constantly depicted as conflicted. Whiny. Insecure. That's not the kind of person that goes on to lead (space) nazis. He commands no respect. He displays no vision.

    I completely disagree with you regarding all films being independent. If you slap the same label on them, claim them to be in the same world, than a minimum of consistency is to be expected. There is some room for suspense of disbelief, because indeed some details are hard to reconcile given how it's a work of fiction, and was written over a long period. Especially within a set of a trilogy, and especially when that trilogy is planned in advance. Consistency within episodes 7-9, and 1-3 should be held to higher standards than the rest. And I don't really see the issue with the Luke-Leia kiss. They didn't know they were siblings then, and it was just a single kiss, that wasn't even motivated by passion. Is it awkward in retrospect? Sure. Is it problematic? Not really.

    You could say the sequels were, in a way, masterworks of entertainment, though. Not that I enjoyed the movies, I did not, but who knows how many hours of entertainment I got from ranting about them. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Well, Iím an old person, so I agree with you.

    The characters in the original Star Wars were absolutely top notch. Darth Vader is part of the western mythology now; kids 500 years from now might know about Luke and Vader and the Sith and the Jedi the same way we know about Hercules today (and Iím only half kidding about this).

    And the universe is wonderful. Itís an immense place where almost any story is possible. Itís custom made for 1,000s of additions through an extended universe .

    I love Star Wars.

    But if I am being honest, I found most of the movies since Empire to be crap, and found the extended universe stuff to range from rarely inspired to usually absolute rubbish.
    Don't worry, humanity doesn't have 500 years left. ;)
    Last edited by Goblin_Priest; 2021-01-23 at 03:12 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Don't worry, humanity doesn't have 500 years left. ;)
    homo Sapiens probably doesn't but humanity as a whole will almost certainly last much longer than that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    homo Sapiens probably doesn't but humanity as a whole will almost certainly last much longer than that.
    You'll have to explain, because to me, those two things are the same. I'd have accepted other Homo in the terms, but as far as I know none other currently exist.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm guessing the theory is eventually there will be a new species evolved from homo sapiens, different enough to earn a new species name?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I'm guessing the theory is eventually there will be a new species evolved from homo sapiens, different enough to earn a new species name?
    Right on. Between people puttin electronics in their bodies and the progress of genetic engineering good ol' Sapiens will most likely soon (as in a few hundred years, I'd guess) face some serious competition.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-01-24 at 05:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Right on. Between people puttin electronics in their bodies and the progress of genetic engineering good ol' Sapiens will most likely soon (as in a few hundred years, I'd guess) face some serious competition.
    Then I suspect you missed or disagree with my hypothesis. When I say humanity won't last 500 years, I'm talking about our genus, and it'd probably be applicable to our family (hominids). See: Fermi paradox, in particular hypothesis revolving around extinction.

    Extinction aside, I doubt technology could really lead to speciation. Speciation typically revolves around isolated communities diverging, and if anything, humanity is less and less isolated, and the ability to alter our genetic baggage in any significant way is strongly tied to our lack of isolation (for example, if WW3 breaks out and destroys/hinders our ability to migrate more or less freely, a typical citizen is also less likely to have the wealth and access to the tech required to change his DNA). So assuming the economical and political context required to let tech both advance and become more accessible to ordinary citizen, one could also safely presume that this phenomenon would relatively easily cross borders. And thus, without isolation, the (artificial) increase in mutation rate would just lead to a more genetically diverse humanity, and not to the rise of reproductively isolated communities leading to novel species.

    I would expect to see de-extinction of past Homo species before we'd see the arrival of a novel Homo species. But I wouldn't bet on seeing that any time soon.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Major changes should be reserved for on-screen plots.

    Similarly, Ben, and Luke's relation to him, is rushed. Anakin's fall, in comparison, was set up over 3 movies. Ben's fall is basically a footnote. As everything in the sequels, it's poorly explained.
    The prequels definitely take that route, painstakingly detailing all the reasons of everything. That made them unenjoyable to me.

    TLJ evokes much more the feeling of ANH, where none of that stuff is explained, but as a viewer,
    you're just dumped in the cockpit of the Falcon with this Han guy you just met, and there is cross between a bear and a carpet, who communicates with load roaring, who apparently is the copilot, and hes called chewie.

    As the audience, you just have to deal with that. There is no mention of Kashyyyk, wookie culture, or how Han and Chewie communicate. You just roll with it. Likewise, you have no idea what lightsabers are, or what Jedi are. They're just an elegant weapon from a more civilized time. Whatever that may mean.

    As the audience, you get to fill all of that in in whatever way you like, because for the story, it doesn't really matter.

    Just like in the original trilogy it didn't matter how Vader fell to the Dark Side, just that he did, and where it took us, in TLJ, it doesn't matter how Ben fell to the Dark Side, only that he did. Neither movie spends time on those parts of the story.

    It's fine if you prefer the kind of stories where you can geek out over them, where they work more on a level of gathering backgrounds and connecting those backgrounds to existing stories rather than telling stories that can stand on their own, like the prequels did, or more recently (and more competently if I'm honest) the movies that make up the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But you don't get to tell other people that that's the only way they're allowed to enjoy the movies and otherwise they are wrong.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martijn View Post
    The prequels definitely take that route, painstakingly detailing all the reasons of everything. That made them unenjoyable to me.

    TLJ evokes much more the feeling of ANH, where none of that stuff is explained, but as a viewer,
    you're just dumped in the cockpit of the Falcon with this Han guy you just met, and there is cross between a bear and a carpet, who communicates with load roaring, who apparently is the copilot, and hes called chewie.

    As the audience, you just have to deal with that. There is no mention of Kashyyyk, wookie culture, or how Han and Chewie communicate. You just roll with it. Likewise, you have no idea what lightsabers are, or what Jedi are. They're just an elegant weapon from a more civilized time. Whatever that may mean.

    As the audience, you get to fill all of that in in whatever way you like, because for the story, it doesn't really matter.

    Just like in the original trilogy it didn't matter how Vader fell to the Dark Side, just that he did, and where it took us, in TLJ, it doesn't matter how Ben fell to the Dark Side, only that he did. Neither movie spends time on those parts of the story.

    It's fine if you prefer the kind of stories where you can geek out over them, where they work more on a level of gathering backgrounds and connecting those backgrounds to existing stories rather than telling stories that can stand on their own, like the prequels did, or more recently (and more competently if I'm honest) the movies that make up the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But you don't get to tell other people that that's the only way they're allowed to enjoy the movies and otherwise they are wrong.
    I don't necessarily prefer overly elaborate world-building (though I do enjoy it), but I do, very highly, value internal consistency. Star Wars (as in, A New Hope) did not /need/ all of the other content that was created around it, it was a great movie in itself, even if not a lot of details are given about the Empire, the Rebel Alliance, Darth Vader, and so on.

    However, once information is given, I expect it to be respected. If a writer/director/whatever can't be assed to respect the work done beforehand, then why is he working with that medium? Why write "A Star Wars Story", if you don't care about the Star Wars setting, established by prior work?

    I would have much preferred to see a new sci-fi franchise (or three) spring up, than the sequel trilogy we got. I can't force you to share my tastes, but I also certainly can't relate to yours. I cannot turn off my brain like that. My kids make better stories with their dolls than these multi-million dollar projects.

    I cannot enjoy the sequels as if they were stand-alones, because they are not. But even if they were, they remain by far inferior to the originals. I can understand some people not liking the prequels, though I did largely enjoy them myself (far from perfect though), but even if comparing just The Force Awakens (or TLJ if you'd like) to A New Hope, the story is vastly inferior. Even if you turn your brain off and fail to realize how stale TFA is for trying to imitate ANH. Take all the consistency issues aside, and TLJ remains a huge mess. The conflicts between the good guys are petty. The heroes display no significant growth. The story is bogged up by a totally pointless sidequest. The premise of both the driving tension (the chase) and resolution (Holdo maneuver and Crait) are ridiculous. Ignoring how the movie can't ass itself to be consistent with the rest of the franchise, it can't ass itself to be consistent with itself. The good guys can't escape undetected, except the protagonists do. The bad guys can't catch up, despite having a large fleet that could easily split up to engage. The number of rebels on Crait evaporates by 90% for no reason whatsoever. Well, aside than for making them fit aboard the Millenium Falcon, that is. Nobody can enter or leave the Crait hideout except through the door, except when they do. Phasma is... basically just a random chrome-plated trooper. Every single plot point in the movie is dumb.

    Enjoying a movie by itself without needing references to hundreds of hours of extra content is fine. But TLJ does not compare to ANH when viewed in this way.

    And I would also add that ANH actually does explain quite a lot, and certainly much more than TLJ. It's just very efficient about it. There's the Galactic Empire, and they talk about abolishing the Imperial Senate, and how the Death Star will intimidate the systems into compliance and allow its dissolution. The politics are simple, but pretty well explained. We know who the Empire is, how strong it is (or at least a vague idea), what its goals are. We know more about the various factions from the original movie than we do with the three sequels combined. Same with the characters' motivations, or the various plot points (like how the weakness of the Death Star is one vent among many, and how that one vent is still ray-shielded, and how only a certain type of weapon can work against it), or how the good guys are intentionally allowed to escape to be tracked, and so on. A lot of it can be easily missed, precisely because of how efficient the movie is at giving all the important info in an organic way that doesn't hammer it in with obnoxiously overt techniques. And which allows people who don't care much for details just focus on the other things. TLJ doesn't do that. The sequels, as a whole, are basically just "not-prequels". Just focused on doing the complete opposite of what people had criticized the prequels for.
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  22. - Top - End - #592
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Look, I'm not telling you that you should like or dislike some movie.

    But I am telling you that you shouldn't tell others what they must like, and I'm also telling you that when you ask people why they liked something, when they explain, they're possibly not interested in having a debate on whether what they liked is sufficiently justified for your tastes.

  23. - Top - End - #593
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martijn View Post
    wookie
    Wookiee. 2 E's.

    Also, that was a standalone movie - it showed what was important for the story it was telling. Vader was not Luke's father, his fall to the Dark Side was unimportant. All that was important was that he was the bad guy who wanted the heroes. The Prequels deliberately made interpersonal relationships central to the plot from the get-go, mostly along established characters. Like trained Ben who was Han and Leia's son - this is all info we are given in the first movie, so connecting the dots is pretty important, and that's not being done. In the original Star Wars, Vader killed Luke's father. We don't know any of these characters, so we don't need any details. We just need motivation and a personal connection for the main character. Once you have established characters that we do know, they've set do need details, because we already have motivation and personal connections.

    Of course nobody can tell you what to like. But we can tell you when stories are badly written. It's perfectly fine to enjoy poorly written stories. I love Super Mario Bros movie, which is an absolute mess. Don't care, I like it. You can like the sequels - there's nothing wrong with that, and more power to you. But that doesn't mean they'd not badly written.
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  24. - Top - End - #594
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Of course nobody can tell you what to like. But we can tell you when stories are badly written.
    I think what heís trying to say is this: suppose I like Nickleback, and you like Rush. I tell you why I think Nickleback is the greatest Canadian rock band of all time.

    You now have a choice: you can tell me why you think Nickleback sucks, or you can tell me why you think Rush is the greatest Canadian rock band of all .

    And, itís probably better to do the latter. Because nobody on the internet has ever, in the history of the world, admitted their opinion was bad and that they should feel bad.

    Even Nickleback lovers donít do that, and they should. Nickleback lovers should feel very, very, very bad.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-01-24 at 10:11 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #595
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I think what heís trying to say is this: suppose I like Nickleback, and you like Rush. I tell you why I think Nickleback is the greatest Canadian rock band of all time.

    You now have a choice: you can tell me why you think Nickleback sucks, or you can tell me why you think Rush is the greatest Canadian rock band of all .

    And, itís probably better to do the latter. Because nobody on the internet has ever, in the history of the world, admitted their opinion was bad and that they should feel bad.
    Again, I like Super Mario Bros movie. That is a bad opinion.

    And people can totally say "I dislike Nickelback because they only ever use the same four chords and the drummer is literally a basic beat program built into the keyboard instead of a person*." It's totally coll for someone to like that music, and the person should not be judged for their opinion, but calling out the band itself on its issues is fair game.

    *I may not know anything about Nickelback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
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  26. - Top - End - #596
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Martijn View Post
    Look, I'm not telling you that you should like or dislike some movie.

    But I am telling you that you shouldn't tell others what they must like, and I'm also telling you that when you ask people why they liked something, when they explain, they're possibly not interested in having a debate on whether what they liked is sufficiently justified for your tastes.
    Well you don't /have/ to debate it with me. But if you continue doing so, surely you must be getting some entertainment out of it? :P

    You enjoy that piece of crap, that's fine! I enjoy the smell of cow manure, and that's literally crap! And I'm sincere! And I may sometimes refer to it with quaint euphemisms like "organic amendment", "natural fertilizer", or such, but at the end of the day, it's still ****. ;)

    Also, #1223 doesn't really add a whole much to talk about. So... back to Star Wars, we must go!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I think what heís trying to say is this: suppose I like Nickleback, and you like Rush. I tell you why I think Nickleback is the greatest Canadian rock band of all time.

    You now have a choice: you can tell me why you think Nickleback sucks, or you can tell me why you think Rush is the greatest Canadian rock band of all .

    And, itís probably better to do the latter. Because nobody on the internet has ever, in the history of the world, admitted their opinion was bad and that they should feel bad.

    Even Nickleback lovers donít do that, and they should. Nickleback lovers should feel very, very, very bad.
    Yea, I did both! I elaborated on why the sequels are crap, and why the OT is good, and the differences between them!

    Isn't this the Argument Clinic?
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  27. - Top - End - #597
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I enjoy the smell of cow manure
    (NOt going to say manure isn't good stuff, but still: you are weird.)

  28. - Top - End - #598
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I enjoy the smell of cow manure, and that's literally ****!
    Cow manure has a smell?
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  29. - Top - End - #599
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Isn't this the Argument Clinic?
    Oh no, Iím sorry! This is abuse.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-01-25 at 10:18 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #600
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (NOt going to say manure isn't good stuff, but still: you are weird.)
    I'm at ease with my peculiarities. Smells... I don't know... fresh, relaxing, natural. Wouldn't stuff my face in it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Cow manure has a smell?
    You didn't know...? I'm not even sure what to think about this. Do you lack the ability to smell, or have you never been exposed to this smell? If the former, why would you assume otherwise. If the latter... how? What kind of place did you grow up in to never be exposed to the smell of cow (manure)? I'm guessing some countries don't have a lot of cows, but I still have a hard time imagining that. There's a dairy farm a few houses up. And another a few houses further up. And, sure, I now live in a rural area, but even when I was a kid, I'd go to the agriculture museum. Or just driving between cities, the odor would be there at times. Even the last apartment I had when I lived in the city had a dairy farm just a few houses away (granted, that one's a peculiar relic of urban sprawl). And that's not counting all the beef farms, though these are mostly pasture-fed and thus you don't really smell them from afar.

    I couldn't really describe it for you, either way. I'm not really aware of others enjoying it as I do. But I think most people would not describe it as overwhelmingly unpleasant, certainly ranking far better than, say, pig manure (that stuff's really awful).

    In any case, I'd suggest you try to get back in touch with agriculture. Many studies show it can be quite therapeutic. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Oh no, Iím sorry! This is abuse.
    Would explain a few things. :P
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