OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

[Giggling Ghast]

That’s it, story’s over. What a journey. Well, it was great knowing you all. See you at the next apocalypse.

[JonahFalcon]

So why didn't the head go into another plane and just got zapped?

That’s it, story’s over. What a journey. Well, it was great knowing you all. See you at the next apocalypse.

Order of the Stick 2: Order Stickier.

[Thecommander236]

Everyone's saying "dimensional portal." Am I the only one who looks at this and says "instanced dungeon"?

No, no. He's got a point.

[Ghosty]

Belker's last line is genius.

Looks like the order has wasted some spells, and Roy has wasted a charge on his sword, but team evil might be wasting more on whatever is inside that dungeon.

I don't think the Order's wasted any buffs, and who knows whether Roy has limited power-ups for his sword. What is the likelihood that this particular dungeon the Order is in, is undefended?

[danielxcutter]

No, no. He's got a point.

I still can't believe that movie is literally two decades old and we still use memes from it.

[Dion]

I’m sorry, but this clearly violates the second law of thermodynamics. I’m quite certain that make the Oracle impossible, based on a careful reading of the hundreds of pages of posts dissecting the physics implications of the oracles powers.

Why does anyone tolerate such obvious plot holes?

[SlashDash]

Remember: finding the Gate and squatting on it does nothing until Team Evil finally get lucky or whatnot. There's still plenty to do even if they find the Gate, such as looking for the paladins if the Voices haven't stashed them here.

I'm talking from a narrative perspective.
It's the same as how it was easy enough to figure out that Roy's plan in the desert would fail.
It's not likely for them to actually reach the gate and just go do other thing.
The gates are the McGuffin, the hero aren't going to find them this fast.
It's neither dramatic nor interesting.

"Dark One's luck" is almost certainly a cleric term for "if we get lucky".

It's almost certainly NOT a reference to the Warlock class.
<SNIPPED>

I meant that the author made a joke - a pun - regarding the fact that the Warlock has a power with a name that sounds like Redcloak's deity.
Not that Redcloak actually used some warlock power. Seriously...

I think that it's more the spirit that counts(as it's the start for the MitD of actually trying to hinder Team Evil), and the fact that he marked them at all means Team Evil just lost the one method they had of keeping track of everything they did so far. Maybe they can figure out which ones they already did since some don't have monsters yet(as they were killed by Team Evil), but that's going to put a strain on their teamwork. And maybe the MitD will have to start rebelling more openly.

Again, I'm talking about the narrative here. The thing that would make the story interesting.
Having it just as a character point to show the audience the monster in the dark went against team evil isn't needed - we already saw him convince Xykon to leave the desert. If it wasn't for him, the party would be dead.
So we don't need to learn stuff we already know.

His specific trick needs to accomplish something more for it to have meaning - good or bad.
One option, is that since O'chul saw him, he might have told the order via sending and it would be their way of knowing they can trust him.
But it just seems too odd for Roy not to have mentioned this during all the recaps he did for the group.

Heck, if they knew the monster is on their side, Durkon would have been more likely to contact him before Redcloak and just ask about what Redcloak wants.


Of course another option is that the monster's trick would backfire. If Redcloak thinks it over, he could think that the door wasn't marked by accident - he might start to think that maybe they went through the door but monsters suddenly appeared in it and thus figure out it might be due to the trap instead - jumping to the right conclusion from the wrong facts.

That could be what pushes team evil at some point to speed things up
Again narratively speaking, they have to stop going through random doors at some point.
Otherwise, there is virtually nothing that Roy even needs to do...

[Wannes]

Which begs the question of how a village, that very likely has Rogues, managed to miss it on their previous dungeon diving, but w/e.

Maybe they never were high enough level to spot it, or rogues in the tribe tend to multi-class and thus not get high-level enough?
Or only a select chosen group or specific type can enter it, and that never included a rogue?

[Peelee]

I still can't believe that movie is literally two decades old and we still use memes from it.

So there's this series called Star Wars, right, and...

[danielxcutter]

So there's this series called Star Wars, right, and...

Har-de-har-har-har.

[Linneris]

Everyone's saying "dimensional portal." Am I the only one who looks at this and says "instanced dungeon"?

Same! Evidently I've played too much WoW.

[Thecommander236]

I still can't believe that movie is literally two decades old and we still use memes from it.

Don't remind me how old I am.

[locksmith of lo]

the interesting thing is that nobody is looking in the direction of the SPLOTCH on the floor. i wonder what it looks like from the other side? if it is only a half a SPLOTCH, that would provide a clue for them.

[JonahFalcon]

the interesting thing is that nobody is looking in the direction of the SPLOTCH on the floor. i wonder what it looks like from the other side? if it is only a half a SPLOTCH, that would provide a clue for them.

I think because the head was on both sides at the same time, it existed in two planes at the same time.

[FlawedParadigm]

So there's this series called Star Wars, right, and...

So there's this series of skits done by a troupe called Monty Python, right, and...

[bunsen_h]

Not exactly. I don't think Blackwing's telepathy would be coming through if it was another dimension. Unless you mean Team Evil is now in another dimension, which is still possible, I suppose.

I still think we're looking at controlled connectivity of sections of corridors / rooms within the multidimensional stone. I don't think we know what the properties of multidimensional stone are.

Even if they can't see the trap, shouldn't they notice the perfectly straight edge on half a scorch mark?

There may be some blurriness, if the changeover of the dimensional connections (or whatever) wasn't instantaneous.

Beyond the quality of the punchline and the story itself, I'd like to say that the artwork is beautiful. I really like the visual effects of the warping through the portal.

I suppose that showing the cross-sections of the bodies as they pass through the boundary plane would have been a bit gross. You know, intersection of complex moving three-dimensional objects with higher-dimensional spaces.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I expected that there was some kind of teleporty thing going on, but I didn't expect it would become plot-critical so quickly.

[locksmith of lo]

oh and redcloak still has trueseeing going and he still does not see the trap.

[Goblin_Priest]

Ah ha, so it does work like that!

Also Belkar's line at the end, just perfection.

500% this. Loved it.

That said... can they leave while the trap is intact? Because it's clearly a 2-way effect.

[Psyren]

And this right here is why you need a rogue, TE

[B. Pseudonym]

Well, either the portal theory just got confirmed, or the main plot's direction was just radically altered, and that's interesting. On the other hand, I want to do some more gushing about how cool this strip looks. Especially Team Evil going through the portal. It's not easy to draw... whatever you call the thing that's happening here. People clipping through objects? Portal cuts? Perfectly flat cross-sections of people and animals?

In any case, I think it looks really cool.

[Metastachydium]

Meta: I think it's too soon to find the Gate.

Meta: [Agrees.]

Makes sense. With Team Evil entering areas full of monsters but no gate, and the OOTS on the track to the gate.

Again, while at this point it would be very difficult to argue against the notion that bypassing the trap is probably the key to finding a Gate, I would be very much disappointed to learn that all dungeons lead to the Gate if the party looking for it has a rogue, so I strongly hope that's not going to happen.

[Grey Watcher]

If it's a variant of Teleportation Circle, as has already been suggested, you need to be a Rogue to even see the thing, regardless of how high your Spot skill is, and Oona's isn't small, I imagine. They don't have any Rogues, so unless RC bangs out a Find Traps, and gets to Spot like a Rogue (and his skill is likely poor), TE will never see the trap.

Yeah, getting into the Trapfinding feature of Rogues (aka System Mandated Party Composition) felt like getting too deep into the weeds.

Which begs the question of how a village, that very likely has Rogues, managed to miss it on their previous dungeon diving, but w/e.

Rogues with enough levels in Spot to see the tiny runes? Plus it's a tiny village (possibly smaller than a hundred, including children?) in a hostile environment. It might literally be the case that everyone is some combination of Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger. With the occasional village shaman (who's probably a Druid or a Cleric).

[Amarsir]

Maybe they never were high enough level to spot it, or rogues in the tribe tend to multi-class and thus not get high-level enough?
Or only a select chosen group or specific type can enter it, and that never included a rogue?

I mentioned this in a previous thread too. But once you know tribe mates have been in and out of these caves without triggering traps, it becomes a waste of time to search. They know it’s safe because their warrior friend was there 6 months earlier.

[Thermophille]

I think they're in the long hidden bit of the corridor between the door and the dungeon.

We know the doors are weirdly packed together, I think the tunnels actually go a long distance and spread out before opening into dungeon levels. The line's function is to teleport people past this. The bit the Order are in is a different colour because no dust usually gets to this part of the corridor.

I think there's a two-way teleportation effect, and Roy's sword appeared at the other end of this hidden space. There may be access tunnels or side doors along this corridor, allowing Serini to move easily between any door and the Gate.

If Haley needs access to the line's blue sides (Per diagram) to meddle with it, it gives them a real problem. They'll be trapped in this looping space unless there's an exit somewhere along it. And Blackwing will be trapped outside.

I actually really like this. I've never bought into the theory of 'oh, you found the super secret button that's right behind all the doors, so I guess we'll invalidate the entire purpose of the dungeon and send you right to the gate'.

This way, they didn't just magically reach the gate first, but they still used their skills and abilities to hide from Team Evil long enough to regroup.

[bt109]

It doesn't have to be a pocket dimension or demiplane. It could simply be another door in the canyon. Sort of a dimension door short-range teleport.

Yeah, that's my guess, as they would have lost touch with Blackwing if they were on another plane.

[Jason]

The weirdest part of the whole thing is how the Order can continue to see the exit and TE but Roy's sword did not go where he was aiming (Xykon's face). So the line doesn't work both ways. If the Order runs for the exit they won't end up going out that door they see, apparently.

[Silent Wrangler]

Oh, LOL. And I mean that literally.

[bunsen_h]

Allow me to recommend Robert Heinlein's story "—And He Built A Crooked House—".

[Ghosty]

Yeah, getting into the Trapfinding feature of Rogues (aka System Mandated Party Composition) felt like getting too deep into the weeds.



Rogues with enough levels in Spot to see the tiny runes? Plus it's a tiny village (possibly smaller than a hundred, including children?) in a hostile environment. It might literally be the case that everyone is some combination of Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger. With the occasional village shaman (who's probably a Druid or a Cleric).

Rogues with so few ranks in Spot that, taking 20, they'd still miss a magic rune that Haley literally almost stumbled over, but still noticed. When Haley hasn't been keeping that skill maxed. (As opposed to Bluff.) And when Rogue is the favored class of the race that inhabits that village. Not saying that have a bunch of 'em, or that they're skilled, but they didn't bring one along on their previous dungeon crawls?

EDIT: Totally agree with Amarsir about the observation that, if you haven't been getting hit with traps at all during your expeditions, you're going to eventually stop looking for traps. Which is a decent inference that, contra our expectations for a dungeon designed by a high-level Rogue, there likely aren't any/many traps in Monster Hollow at all. Team Evil might be able to just tank the damage, but the rest of the Bugbears likely can't.

It's a hole, but whatever. Still less laughable than that Durkula v the Order fight, and that turned out great. It's a decent explanation for why our plucky heroes see the thing, and mighty Team Evil can't. Not that Xykon cares either way, anymore it seems.

Haley rolled a 20, and we move along...