OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

[Onyavar]

So, if Haley bypasses the trap a second time from their current position...

... will that lead the Order into another valley, where the real rift is set up at the spot where Kraagor's statue was set up?

This would also explain to where the invisible people have abducted the Paladins.

[Robots]

Hey, new update. Nice. And I'm like, posting on the day it was published!

Is it a little weird that I thought this was going to happen? Well, not this "exact" scenario, but I thought something along the lines of this, heh. At least the Order isn't getting their butts kicked in. That's always nice to see, hahah. :)

[Emmit Svenson]

Interesting that the light and sound that cross the line from the tunnel entrance goes to both the trap destination and the OotS's location--at one of those locations, presumably the OotS's, it's being replicated.

I imagine that if the OotS were to walk across the line now, in whatever space they end up, they will be able to see and hear as if they were at the tunnel entrance looking across the line in the other direction.

[Fincher]

I maintain that it makes more sense for Team Evil to be the ones who teleported. If the device teleports you toward where the gate is, then it's doing the exact opposite of what Serini's supposed to be doing, which is keeping people away. She could just...not put the device there in the first place. On the other hand, if approaching where the gate is causes you to teleported somewhere else without knowing you were teleported, then you'll be unable to reach it (unless you bypass the trap, or I guess tunnel through the walls) but go away thinking there was nothing there where you were looking.

Also, supposedly Haley found a trap, but if "bypassing" it activates it, then it's not really a trap, it's a device that hasn't been turned on. Meaning you don't need to be able to detect traps to find it and don't need to be a rogue.

[Vessyra]

Comedy throughout the entire strip, an especially good punchline at the end, the effect of the trap confirmed and Redcloak's eye looking amazing? This is one great strip.

[Ruck]

Looks like Serini's diary was misleading; while it does have a lot of really tough monsters as a homage to Kraagor, it's still got a roguish trick or two in store.

I don't think that was in the diary; I think that was from Shojo's re-telling of the Order of the Scribble story.

[gatemansgc]

ooh a rare weekend post, glad i check every day!

i wonder where they'd go if they crossed back over the threshold? roy's sword went SOMEWHERE!

[Zaclock]

So, can we assume that Blackwing will be separated from the main crew for a while? I feel like he will have his own side adventure involving invisible creatures and our favourite paladins.

[Jay R]

Redcloak's line about having Dark One's Luck (Reference to the Warlock power?) made me think that maybe he doesn't, but Durkon got the luck of the divine intervention in picking the right door.

There's an expression, "have the devil's own luck", which means to have extremely good luck. This evil cleric just put his own deity in place of the devil.

Yeah, that's the weirdest part of all of it. How do they see Xykon, Xykon doesn't see than, AND the sword disappears when going through it too? Where does the portal go this way round?

Xykon cannot see through the portal, so he just sees the tunnel in front of him on his own plane. I assume that the sword didn't go anywhere; it's still in the same tunnel that Roy is in. But Roy and the rest of the party are seeing through the portal, so they can't see the sword directly in front of them; they see the tunnel that Xykon is in instead, just like I can see my computer screen, but can't see something behind it.

That’s it, story’s over. What a journey. Well, it was great knowing you all. See you at the next apocalypse.

Nah. We just got past a secondary villain so we can now deal with the Snarl, which is the real villain.

No, I don't believe this. No, I don't believe this. No, I don't believe this. No, I don't believe this. No, I don't believe this.

I’m sorry, but this clearly violates the second law of thermodynamics. I’m quite certain that make the Oracle impossible, based on a careful reading of the hundreds of pages of posts dissecting the physics implications of the oracles powers.

Why does anyone tolerate such obvious plot holes?

Oh, it makes sense. Once you realize what the species the MitD is, and Vaarsuvius's gender, it all fits together nicely. There will soon be a doily, and you'll understand it all. And then you'll see why Elan's happy ending required finding a whistle.

[Roland Itiative]

This trap has interesting mechanics. Works like a "one way mirror" in terms of vision and sound, but both sides work as portals. Do both sides lead into the same place, I wonder.

This one-sided vision property is particularly interesting. It seems like it would be rather easy to notice as a group that something was happening, with the way it seems to work.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Just realized that Team Evil is finally getting its comeuppance for

Spoiler: SoD

Show

killing Right-Eye.

[Bar Deck Lore]

Great comic!

Feels excellent to see the pieces of the puzzle coming together, and Belkar's punchline was perfect!

[Tafkat]

If the door doesn't matter and it's just the trap, then narratively speaking, the monster's trick of painting the doors doesn't really matter at all.
I still think that should come to play somehow the fact that he kept them away from some door.

Why? Surely the important thing is that MitD has decided to try to thwart Team Evil and is doing that to the best of its ability without blowing its cover. The important thing is the change in its attitude and its ethical/character development rather than the actual effectiveness of its actions.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's almost certainly NOT a reference to the Warlock class.

Warlock was not a core class in D&D 3.5e (which OOTS generally runs on), it was a fairly obscure splatbook class in 3e that somehow, inexplicably became a core class in 4e.

While "Dark One's Own Luck" is a Least Invocation for 3e Warlocks, I really doubt it's a reference to a minor power from an obscure class by a character who for the last 17 years has consistently been depicted as a high-level Cleric, not a Warlock.

It's almost certainly a reference to the fact that Redcloak's deity is actually named "The Dark One".

Warlocks have been seen/mentioned at least twice:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html

[Worldsong]

Rogues with so few ranks in Spot that, taking 20, they'd still miss a magic rune that Haley literally almost stumbled over, but still noticed. When Haley hasn't been keeping that skill maxed. (As opposed to Bluff.) And when Rogue is the favored class of the race that inhabits that village. Not saying that have a bunch of 'em, or that they're skilled, but they didn't bring one along on their previous dungeon crawls?

This might fall in the same category as when someone tried to make a big deal about how it didn't make sense that Vaarsuvius's Familicide didn't kill more people (due to statistics saying the Ancient Black Dragon's family should have had more intimate encounters with non-dragons) and Rich stepped in to say "I don't care if it's statistically improbable, that's exactly what happened."

EDIT: Basically Rich has openly stated that the story takes priority over what the readers might believe makes sense and what doesn't.

[skim172]

Also, supposedly Haley found a trap, but if "bypassing" it activates it, then it's not really a trap, it's a device that hasn't been turned on. Meaning you don't need to be able to detect traps to find it and don't need to be a rogue.

A double-bluff? It's a non-trap that looks like a trap, causing the wary-but-not-quite-wary-enough rogue to "deactivate"/but really activate it?

But then yeah, why put that in at all? If your goal was to hide the location of the gate, then why give wary-but-unwary rogues the chance to accidentally teleport to the gate? Just leave the trap/non-trap out of it, and let the intruder wander hopelessly.

I agree - makes more sense for this to be a "teleport trap" that portaled Team Evil to some other location. Diverting potential intruders away from the actual gate location is a better defense mechanism than diverting intruders unintentionally to the gate location.

This trap has interesting mechanics. Works like a "one way mirror" in terms of vision and sound, but both sides work as portals. Do both sides lead into the same place, I wonder.

This one-sided vision property is particularly interesting. It seems like it would be rather easy to notice as a group that something was happening, with the way it seems to work.

I (over)thought about this a bit - it wouldn't work if light and sound were also transported via the portal from Team Evil's side to the Order's side, as Team Evil would immediately notice that they can't hear or see anything coming from outside the door once they step through the portal. I would propose that the portal doesn't admit light and sound directly, but simply replicates it from this side. Like a television, rather than a one-way mirror. You're seeing an image, not the real thing. That could also be consistent with the portal apparently only travelling in one direction - as indicated the blade of Roy's sword not mysteriously appearing in mid-air in Xykon's face.

(Narratively, it's obviously because it's a lot more succinct and demonstrative to reveal the teleportation trap in this way, rather than a few strips of explanation)

Alternatively, it's magic - which can tell the laws of physics to spoon right off and do whatever the fork it wants.

[pearl jam]

Maybe Roy's sword "disappeared" simply because it was still where he is, but had crossed the line presenting a vision of where Team Evil were? That seems like the simplest explanation to me for how we don't see it and Xykon also doesn't see it.

[masamune1]

Hayley said that the trap had an automatic resent for every person that crosses.

She used the skull to bypass that for the Order...but Team Evil didn't know about that.

Xykon might be in a different location to Redcloak et al (who crossed at the same time). EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, since Redcloak said "we might as well follow him" even though he should be only a few feet ahead of them.

[ManuelSacha]

Hahahaha! Roy's frustration is always hilarious!

[JNinja]

Rogues with so few ranks in Spot that, taking 20, they'd still miss a magic rune that Haley literally almost stumbled over, but still noticed. When Haley hasn't been keeping that skill maxed. (As opposed to Bluff.) And when Rogue is the favored class of the race that inhabits that village. Not saying that have a bunch of 'em, or that they're skilled, but they didn't bring one along on their previous dungeon crawls?

I think it's still possible that the bugbears have capable rogues. The bugbears don't enter Monster Hollow to find the Gate, they're just looking for monsters to fight and harvest. If one of their rogues did notice the trap and bypass it, they'd just find whatever the OOTS is about to encounter, which is probably not simply another monster den, and thus is of no interest to the bugbears. They'd be perfectly content to ignore the trap and keep finding monsters.

Oona clearly doesn't care about TE's desire to find the Gate, she just wants to make sure that they don't kill off all the monsters. If the portal trap is known in the bugbear village, she still has no incentive to tell TE about it.

[Rogan]

Hayley said that the trap had an automatic resent for every person that crosses.

She used the skull to bypass that for the Order...but Team Evil didn't know about that.

Xykon might be in a different location to Redcloak et al (who crossed at the same time). EDIT: In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, since Redcloak said "we might as well follow him" even though he should be only a few feet ahead of them.

This is unlikely.
Greyview found team evil, despite entering the dungeon much later than the rest of the team. This would not happen if they were in different locations.

[jacehan]

This is unlikely.
Greyview found team evil, despite entering the dungeon much later than the rest of the team. This would not happen if they were in different locations.

On top of that, if we're talking about the trap being undetectable, I would think it sending people to different places if they cross at different times would be a pretty noticeable effect.

[Ghosty]

Warlocks have been seen/mentioned at least twice:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html

Your cites got me rereading around those strips. (And thanks for the excuse to do so...)

Anyway, anyone think any of the ideas Elan came up with in 693, might resurface with this Gate and Tomb? We still have Bloodfeast, likely still snoozing away. I get that the strip was to set up Elan's love of dinosaurs, and further jokes about them. But mainly I was wondering about the password, or maybe the shrinking idea.

[Aveline]

Is there any way for us to infer where the MitD is, or what he might be doing? I assume he's just waiting back at the cottage or thereabouts, and that he won't be steering the plot much for some time yet, but his absence feels somehow conspicuous.

(Don't mind me, I'm just clutching at straws.)

[danielxcutter]

Is there any way for us to infer where the MitD is, or what he might be doing? I assume he's just waiting back at the cottage or thereabouts, and that he won't be steering the plot much for some time yet, but his absence feels somehow conspicuous.

(Don't mind me, I'm just clutching at straws.)

I’m betting on “Team Evil didn’t go get him because it was downtime and also they expected this to be a quick smash” and he’s sleeping or eating something or playing with Razor or I dunno something like that.

[locksmith of lo]

Maybe Roy's sword "disappeared" simply because it was still where he is, but had crossed the line presenting a vision of where Team Evil were? That seems like the simplest explanation to me for how we don't see it and Xykon also doesn't see it.

that seems like the most likely explanation.

[mikelibrarian]

Many of the features of Dorukan's dungeon were alignment specific, the "Weird" effect in Draketooth's dungeon may also have been alignment dependent. Maybe the runes are only visible to non-evil beings no matter what the being's spot check or trap finding ability might be.

[Sky_Schemer]

Lots of people debating the nature of the trap, and the mechanics, and so on.

Personally? I am just happy that Rich didn't try to show us a cross-section of a stick figure's internal anatomy.

[masonwheeler]

Same! Evidently I've played too much WoW.

I've actually never played WoW. But my wife does...

[Thermophille]

I think it's still possible that the bugbears have capable rogues. The bugbears don't enter Monster Hollow to find the Gate, they're just looking for monsters to fight and harvest. If one of their rogues did notice the trap and bypass it, they'd just find whatever the OOTS is about to encounter, which is probably not simply another monster den, and thus is of no interest to the bugbears. They'd be perfectly content to ignore the trap and keep finding monsters.

Oona clearly doesn't care about TE's desire to find the Gate, she just wants to make sure that they don't kill off all the monsters. If the portal trap is known in the bugbear village, she still has no incentive to tell TE about it.

Actually, she would. In fact, Oona is explicitly motivated to help TE find the gate, since that stops their monster slaughtering faster. We have no reason to believe that the bugbears know the location of the Gate. I personally don't think that the Gate would immediately be behind one trick this simple, so even if the bugbears were aware of it, I doubt they'd associate it with the Gate everybody is so interested in.

Many of the features of Dorukan's dungeon were alignment specific, the "Weird" effect in Draketooth's dungeon may also have been alignment dependent. Maybe the runes are only visible to non-evil beings no matter what the being's spot check or trap finding ability might be.

I doubt it. We're in a world run by narrative more than logic, and re-using a gimmick like that is narratively uncouth, even if it comes from the beginning.