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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Long time lurker I've only posted once or twice before but unfortunately lost my old account. I just have to say that does it appear that Elan in panel 14 is watching the action of team evil in panel 13 as they cross the Trap line.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Robots View Post
    To be honest, I wonder where Roy's sword went off to. It clearly didn't appear in front of Xykon, because A) it wasn't there when it dipped through the barrier thingamajig, and B) Xykon probably would have noticed a big ol' sword in his face. Maybe it's a randomized teleporty thingy.
    Indeed, the mechanics are puzzling. The order can hear Team evil and Blackwing. But Xykon cannot hear them. Team Evil entering doesn't bring them to the Order, but Roy's Sword also doesn't just leave and smack Xykon... so where does the exit lead to, given it's not where they are seeing?
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Called it.
    forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622932-OOTS-1220-The-Discussion-Thread&p=24820656

    Probably called by everyone else for all I know. 😂

    "Sneaky sneaky. They have not entered the tomb behind the door they went through. That "trap" is a seamless teleport. That's why the floor on the other side is a different colour. Cause it's the colour of the floor of the tomb they're teleporting to.

    I figure there is only one real tomb that keeps resetting and all the other's are just doors with a corridor.

    Has someone been playing the original Doom?"
    Last edited by alowe; 2020-12-20 at 02:23 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again, I strongly hope otherwise. „Every dungeon is actually two dungeons, and one of the two are hard to find” could work as a defense quite well, especially if both dungeons are guarded by something. „Every dungeon leads to the prize if you have a rogue” is a horrible defense which is arguably a lot weaker than the brute force system of dungeons the Tomb seems to be at first sight, and thus Serini would have to be very dumb to set up such a defense. Granted, after what she did with the coordinates, Serini might in fact be really dumb, but still.
    Well no, because that's not "every dungeon is two dungeons, but one is hard to find", it's "every dungeon is three dungeons, one is harder to find and one of them requires you to counterintuitively re-arm a trap behind you then intentionally walk into it".

    Which is a lot more of a defence, because it's not the sort of thing anyone searching through the dungeon for a gate would think about doing unless something nastier was behind them than in front of them, and at the entrance that's unlikely.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Thanks Giant!

    I know you probably don't like the community speculating how the plot will go, but when you're so close to the end and have such little room to wiggle, what can you do?
    To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
    To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
    To die in order to be reborn to the new world

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Well no, because that's not "every dungeon is two dungeons, but one is hard to find", it's "every dungeon is three dungeons, one is harder to find and one of them requires you to counterintuitively re-arm a trap behind you then intentionally walk into it".

    Which is a lot more of a defence, because it's not the sort of thing anyone searching through the dungeon for a gate would think about doing unless something nastier was behind them than in front of them, and at the entrance that's unlikely.
    1. If every dungeon is three dungeons, please refer to what I said about every dungeon being two dungeons. If every dungeon is two dungeons and a shortcut to the Gate, it's still stupid, especially if the Gate is where the party with a a rogue would inevitably try to leave the second dungeon.
    2. We have no evidence that bypassing rather than disarming the trap made any difference other than allowing the Order to enter the second dungeon while preventing Team Evil from doing the same.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-12-20 at 02:35 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    1. If every dungeon is three dungeons, please refer to what I said about every dungeon being two dungeons. If every dungeon is two dungeons and a shortcut to the Gate, it's still stupid, especially if the Gate is where the party with a a rogue would inevitably try to leave the second dungeon.
    Well no, why would a party with a rogue that disarmed the trap on the way in arm it again before they walked back out and triggered it?

    2. We have no evidence that bypassing rather than disarming the trap made any difference other than allowing the Order to enter the second dungeon while preventing Team Evil from doing the same.
    Yeah, the idea is that the gate is not in the second dungeon. The gate is only in a third place you get to by disarming the trap, crossing over it, arming it again, and walking into the trap which you just armed from the other side. How is that inevitable?

    We know that going through the portal the other way doesn't lead out of the dungeon because Xykon didn't see Roy's sword, which would have appeared in front of him if the portal connected to the outside, and the portal clearly works differently in different directions because the Order can see Xykon but Xykon cannot see the Order.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    I must admit I laughed my head off at this issue!

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    Very doubtful, but I still think there's only one dungeon, but that line I suspect is merely a contingency used to bypass the trap and that rather than the corridor is trapped its actually a door in itself that a rogue can use to sidestep the effect that covers the entire area including the village.

    I think the bugbear village are PART of Serini's Dungeon which is why they haven't said anything.

    I still think Xykon is going to lose his temper and use some kind of maximised dispel magic accidentally dispelling the "illusion" restoring the area to its true form the question will be how long will it take them to get back to the right path?

    Fey would make sense of the Winter Court if thats the case or did 3.5 deal with that?
    Last edited by Hopeless; 2020-12-20 at 02:50 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WindStruck View Post
    What I am thinking is back the other way across that line, where Roy swung and his sword and did not hit Xykon, there may be the actual gate. Like, out in the open, but on a completely different plane or dimension. It's equivalent to where the statue is in the prime material plane. And whatever other denizens that live there, like Redspeaker or Greenspeaker could be there too. I also think they're Fey.

    Now the reason I think the gate can actually be back that way is.. if you recall, a certain spell exists that allows one to move the gate to a different plane. The Dark One apparently came up with this and was trying to get Redcloak to use it with Xykon, but theoretically other very powerful entities could come up with such an idea as well. Again, I think Fey are good candidates as they could probably live forever and typically a King or Queen figure is also extremely powerful.

    What would be a better way of protecting the gate than seemingly within the largest shell game in history, hundreds of doors filled with dangerous monsters, none of them right. The gate is on a completely different plane and guarded by intelligent, powerful beings of nature.

    I'm thinking Serini did not just protect the gate like Kragor would. She would have incorporated strategies from every one of her former teammates.
    If I remember correctly Rich at some point said that one of the dangers of the Dark One's Plan was that if he moved the Gate to another plane the Snarl would no longer be contained inside the Material Plane and could use any interplanar portal to go to any plane. Up until now if the Snarl managed to escape its prison it'd still be stuck inside the Material Plane and the gods could wait for it to calm down while hiding inside their own planes before imprisoning it inside a new world.

    While the Scribblers might not have been aware of this I'm still rather sceptical they'd have moved a Gate out of the Material Plane because that's a rather risky thing to do if you're not entirely sure how the Snarl would react.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    Well no, why would a party with a rogue that disarmed the trap on the way in arm it again before they walked back out and triggered it?



    Yeah, the idea is that the gate is not in the second dungeon. The gate is only in a third place you get to by disarming the trap, crossing over it, arming it again, and walking into the trap which you just armed from the other side. How is that inevitable?

    We know that going through the portal the other way doesn't lead out of the dungeon because Xykon didn't see Roy's sword, which would have appeared in front of him if the portal connected to the outside, and the portal clearly works differently in different directions because the Order can see Xykon but Xykon cannot see the Order.
    For all we know, disarming the trap allows movement between the two dungeons, while all rearming the trap does is blocking movement. What's behind what Roy struck can very well be within the same corridor.
    (Also, I'd find the Order just stumbling upon the Gate by dumb luck less than satisfactory. They deserve to actually deserve finding it through applied competence and stuff. Dumb luck would feel cheap.)
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-12-20 at 02:59 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

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    I think what Serini did was create a dimensional matrix but rather than placing the Gate within it, the matrix is surrounding a space that to onlookers appears to be the same place but isn't.

    So rather than moving the Gate to another plane I think everything including the village is actually within that matrix and that line is the actual door they assumed they used to enter this corridor only it requires a high level rogue or some means to replicate their abilities to access it.

    Of course had Serini mentioned it in her diary they should have been looking for it so I assume either that diary is incomplete or was released deliberately but that would suggest Serini had a falling out with the others but who knows?

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Interesting detail - Blackwing exited before the trap went live again. But whatever planar shenanigans are going on, he can still communicate with them.

    ...they could test what's happening by having Roy stick his sword out again (ha) and have Blackwing report in if it appears anywhere.
    Last edited by spruce56; 2020-12-20 at 03:01 PM.

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    The gates are the McGuffin, the hero aren't going to find them this fast.
    BRitF showed that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Allow me to recommend Robert Heinlein's story "—And He Built A Crooked House—".
    A good one for thinking through tesseract dungeons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    There's an expression, "have the devil's own luck", which means to have extremely good luck. This evil cleric just put his own deity in place of the devil.
    That's how it came off to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith of lo View Post
    what? the rolling stones?
    Maybe he's hungering for some goat's head soup.
    Quote Originally Posted by WindStruck View Post
    And whatever other denizens that live there, like Redspeaker or Greenspeaker could be there too. I also think they're Fey.
    They may be, but I don't think that they live inside the dungeons.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    I just love the line: What is he talking about? You have a big glowing sword; you're totally cool to murder.
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    Rockphed said it well.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Indeed, the mechanics are puzzling. The order can hear Team evil and Blackwing. But Xykon cannot hear them. Team Evil entering doesn't bring them to the Order, but Roy's Sword also doesn't just leave and smack Xykon... so where does the exit lead to, given it's not where they are seeing?
    I imagine it as fourth dimensional train lines.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    The behavior of the "trap" portal implies *three* separate dimensions.

    1) Original where Xykon was on the other side of the runes.

    2) "Different floor color" where Roy and the OOTS are standing.

    3) Wherever Roy's sword went when he tried to attack Xykon. It didn't show up in D1, so where is that exactly?

    Now, they can still "hear" Blackwing from dimension 1), so this is really interesting.

    Also, every door has this portal trap; do they all lead to the same destination if not temporarily disabled? If so, Xykon is running in circles.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Indeed, the mechanics are puzzling. The order can hear Team evil and Blackwing. But Xykon cannot hear them. Team Evil entering doesn't bring them to the Order, but Roy's Sword also doesn't just leave and smack Xykon... so where does the exit lead to, given it's not where they are seeing?
    I feel like I had a good theory back earlier in the thread that didn't get a lot of attention:

    Spoiler: Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by npc revolution View Post
    I think I know where the Order currently are.


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    I think they're in the long hidden bit of the corridor between the door and the dungeon.

    We know the doors are weirdly packed together, I think the tunnels actually go a long distance and spread out before opening into dungeon levels. The line's function is to teleport people past this. The bit the Order are in is a different colour because no dust usually gets to this part of the corridor.

    I think there's a two-way teleportation effect, and Roy's sword appeared at the other end of this hidden space. There may be access tunnels or side doors along this corridor, allowing Serini to move easily between any door and the Gate.

    If Haley needs access to the line's blue sides (Per diagram) to meddle with it, it gives them a real problem. They'll be trapped in this looping space unless there's an exit somewhere along it. And Blackwing will be trapped outside.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackman View Post
    So does WONNNH sound like waving a light saber around?
    It sounds like the old A Current Affair bumper.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post
    The question is, does this thing exist behind all the doors, or just this one?
    Redcloak's line about having Dark One's Luck (Reference to the Warlock power?) made me think that maybe he doesn't, but Durkon got the luck of the divine intervention in picking the right door.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlashDash View Post

    If the door doesn't matter and it's just the trap, then narratively speaking, the monster's trick of painting the doors doesn't really matter at all.
    It's a point more in its course to be defined as "a good man". Probably, as Chekhov's gun dictates, his trick will be discovered and he will be punished somehow. This punishment will be another stage in his rebellion against the Evil Team.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by spruce56 View Post
    Interesting detail - Blackwing exited before the trap went live again. But whatever planar shenanigans are going on, he can still communicate with them.

    ...they could test what's happening by having Roy stick his sword out again (ha) and have Blackwing report in if it appears anywhere.
    I do not believe Blackwing ever entered. He was on patrol before the trap was ever disarmed.

  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by npc revolution View Post
    I think I know where the Order currently are.


    Spoiler: Diagram
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    I think they're in the long hidden bit of the corridor between the door and the dungeon.

    We know the doors are weirdly packed together, I think the tunnels actually go a long distance and spread out before opening into dungeon levels. The line's function is to teleport people past this. The bit the Order are in is a different colour because no dust usually gets to this part of the corridor.

    I think there's a two-way teleportation effect, and Roy's sword appeared at the other end of this hidden space. There may be access tunnels or side doors along this corridor, allowing Serini to move easily between any door and the Gate.

    If Haley needs access to the line's blue sides (Per diagram) to meddle with it, it gives them a real problem. They'll be trapped in this looping space unless there's an exit somewhere along it. And Blackwing will be trapped outside.
    I do like this theory.

    The trap effect is similar to a portal spell, but i believe it is more akin to a teleportation circle, or a same-plane portal. Both dungeons sould be in the multidimentional stone.
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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    What should the OOTS do next? I assume they will move forward to find the gate, but then what? They know they cannot destroy this gate or else everything is destroyed by the Snarl. Do they set up defenses and wait to fight Team Evil? Do they send word to the Sapphire Guard for reinforcements? Do they wait to ambush Redcloak after he uses up his spells?
    So many questions!

  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky_Schemer View Post
    Also, every door has this portal trap; do they all lead to the same destination if not temporarily disabled? If so, Xykon is running in circles.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "the same destination". The doors appear to lead to distinct dungeons. Oona doesn't expect that a given doorway, having been cleared of its monsters recently, should have been repopulated so quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    What should the OOTS do next? I assume they will move forward to find the gate, but then what? They know they cannot destroy this gate or else everything is destroyed by the Snarl. Do they set up defenses and wait to fight Team Evil? Do they send word to the Sapphire Guard for reinforcements? Do they wait to ambush Redcloak after he uses up his spells?
    So many questions!
    Seems to me that what they'll do next will involve some explanation by Haley about what she knows about the "trap", some pontification by Vaarsuvius, and then someone sticking their head back across the line to see what's on the other side, since they know that Roy's sword wasn't harmed. They might experiment with a critter from Roy's Bag of Many Things first.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    confused Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    So.. only one person in this thread has commented about Redcloak's new Eye Design.

    Red eyes look great on the gob-boi.

    Edit: Right, true seeing. Still looks badass..
    Last edited by PattThe; 2020-12-20 at 08:12 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    I think that we need to be prepared for the mechanics of this trap to be somewhat asymmetric. Like many other things in the Stickverse, it follows the rules of drama rather than the rules of logic.

    Consider: this can’t be the first time members of Team Evil have been on different sides of the magic line at the same time. If Redcloak walked behind Xykon into the dungeon, he would have noticed if Xykon disappeared once he crossed the line. So apparently, while the trap is active, light and sound travel to TWO different locations at once. However, the same is not true in reverse.
    Here’s a schematic of the entire thing. As I see it there are two corridors: a green one (the one that leads from the door in Monster Hollow to the monsters that TE has been killing), and a yellow corridor somewhere else, that is accessible only if the trap is deactivated somehow, leading to and from unknown locations.

    (I am assuming that it’s the Order that is teleported, rather than Team Evil, because of the floor color change. And yeah, I kind of think that deactivating any of the traps in any corridor would have taken the Order to where they are right now. This may not be as effective a barrier to the Gate as putting the teleporter in just one tunnel, but I will accept “Serini thought it was cool” as an explanation.)

    G1 (door) G2 (monsters, TE current location)
    Y1 ????? Y2 (Order’s current location)

    Trap active
    G1 light, sound > G2 AND Y2, G1 matter > G2
    (Order and Xykon are BOTH able to see Redcloak enter the door.)
    G2 light, sound > G1 (maybe Y1), matter >G1
    (When TE enters or exits a dungeon, they don’t notice anything unusual happening around the trap.)
    Y1 matter > Y2
    (Roy’s sword came back.)
    Y2 light, sound, matter > Y1
    (presumably, since Xykon doesn’t hear or see Roy and there is nowhere else his sword could have gone)

    Trap inactive
    G1 light, sound, matter > Y2
    (Presumably light, sound, and matter all go to Y2, since otherwise the first members of the Order to cross the line could have looked back and noticed that Roy and Belkar materialized when they crossed it.)
    G2 light, sound, matter > unknown
    Y1 light, sound, matter > unknown
    Y2 light, sound, matter > G1
    (Because again, Roy would have noticed if the rest of the Order suddenly popped into view once he crossed the line.)

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGee View Post
    I am assuming that it’s the Order that is teleported, rather than Team Evil, because of the floor color change
    Personally, it makes more sense to me that Team Evil is the ones being teleported, for two reasons

    1) It's more consistent with the idea of a trap being disabled

    2) In 1203, Roy said that the dungeons had to be straight hallways to avoid them running into each other. (Also it just makes sense, given how close all those doors are) Meanwhile, Team Evil had already described the inside as complex and with a lot of twists and turns. These two things make it seem likely to me that the trap takes you to somewhere else.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Plausibly, the "trap" magic includes providing a sight-and-sound illusion of what's going on "outside". From where the Order is now, they get to see what's going on at the doorway and in that short bit of hallway. If they cross to the other side (i.e. where the end of Roy's sword was for a moment), they may get to see Team Evil from behind, walking away.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Personally, it makes more sense to me that Team Evil is the ones being teleported, for two reasons

    1) It's more consistent with the idea of a trap being disabled

    2) In 1203, Roy said that the dungeons had to be straight hallways to avoid them running into each other. (Also it just makes sense, given how close all those doors are) Meanwhile, Team Evil had already described the inside as complex and with a lot of twists and turns. These two things make it seem likely to me that the trap takes you to somewhere else.
    I see your point. The problems I have with that are

    1) If the Order is in the "real" long straight corridor behind the door, instead of being teleported elsewhere, then why did the floor change color?

    2) Since the bugbears keep track of how long it takes dungeons to repopulate, presumably they also would know if the same door always takes you to the same dungeon. Assuming it does, that means there's a full dungeon for each door somewhere that is being teleported to. I suppose, as many have said, it could be extraplanar, but still...wow.

    3) Narratively, if the Order is just in a long straight corridor, that seems a bit...boring. Even more so if, as someone suggested earlier, they're just in a section of corridor that the teleporters skip over.

    Maybe all the corridors converge in one big room at the end? I suppose that would make sense.

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    Olympia, WA

    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceGee View Post
    1) If the Order is in the "real" long straight corridor behind the door, instead of being teleported elsewhere, then why did the floor change color?
    The floor that gets walked on by a generation of bugbear hunters gets dirty. The floor that's hidden behind a teleport curtain doesn't get dirty.

    2) Since the bugbears keep track of how long it takes dungeons to repopulate, presumably they also would know if the same door always takes you to the same dungeon.
    We don't know that this is the case.

    3) Narratively, if the Order is just in a long straight corridor, that seems a bit...boring.
    Long and straight doesn't mean empty.
    The Giant says: Yes, I am aware TV Tropes exists as a website. ... No, I have never decided to do something in the comic because it was listed on TV Tropes. I don't use it as a checklist for ideas ... and I have never intentionally referenced it in any way.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

    Remember, Haley disabled the runes. This means that something did happen to TE that didn't happen to OotS. By Occam's Razor, it makes far more sense for TE to have been teleported than the Order.
    I like heated water, not heated arguments.

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