OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

I thought it was in response to a player saying they were too easy.

Pretty it was a Gygaxian bird flipping either way, I dunno. As many flaws as I hear the man had in terms of gameplay design ideas, being a killer DM usually wasn't one of them or what he recommended doing. Tomb of Horrors is only that BS because it was specifically done to prove a point.

[Ghosty]

Tomb of Horrors was a middle finger to the guys who complained Gygax's meatgrinder dungeons were too hard(despite that being the point since they were for tournaments) or something, wasn't it?

There's a bit of explanation about its origin in this blog post, citing Gygax's introduction to Return to The Tomb of Horrors. In Gygax's words:

There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill — and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters...

...Before I put it into manuscript form for publication, I carried the scenario around with me in my briefcase, so as to be ready for those fans who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game. After an hour or so of time spent within the weird labyrinth of Acererak’s final “resting place,” the players whose characters were survivors typically remembered suddenly that they had pressing engagements elsewhere. Clutching their precious character sheets, they fled the table....

For those familiar with the module, the perhaps apocryphal story of how the guy who created the character Mordenkainen had his PC defeat the demilich, has always struck me as really clever.

My guess is, now the Order meets the real Guardians of the Gate, who I'm guessing are Green Text and Orange Text.

[danielxcutter]

There's a bit of explanation about its origin in this blog post, citing Gygax's introduction to Return to The Tomb of Horrors. In Gygax's words:

For those familiar with the module, the perhaps apocryphal story of how the guy who created the character Mordenkainen had his PC defeat the demilich, has always struck me as really clever.

My guess is, now the Order meets the real Guardians of the Gate, who I'm guessing are Green Text and Orange Text.

Oh yeah, I remember. The one when your players are overconfident because they bitchslapped Asmodeus to death or something.

Also which story? I don't think it's the one about the crown and scepter...

[Ghosty]

Oh yeah, I remember. The one when your players are overconfident because they bitchslapped Asmodeus to death or something.

Also which story? I don't think it's the one about the crown and scepter...

That was the one I was referring to. Don't know why I was concerned about spoiling a 40 plus year old module, never mind I want to say it got mentioned in the bestseller Ready Player One.

I thought it was an elegant solution to the dilemma, and made use of hard-won (especially for the poor schlub who tried it on) knowledge acquired during gameplay

[danielxcutter]

That was the one I was referring to. Don't know why I was concerned about spoiling a 40 plus year old module, never mind I want to say it got mentioned in the bestseller Ready Player One.

I thought it was an elegant solution to the dilemma, and made use of hard-won (especially for the poor schlub who tried it on) knowledge acquired during gameplay

And then that was patched out in the 3.5e update I hear. Shame.

[burpbot]

It's almost certainly NOT a reference to the Warlock class.

Warlock was not a core class in D&D 3.5e (which OOTS generally runs on), it was a fairly obscure splatbook class in 3e that somehow, inexplicably became a core class in 4e.

While "Dark One's Own Luck" is a Least Invocation for 3e Warlocks, I really doubt it's a reference to a minor power from an obscure class by a character who for the last 17 years has consistently been depicted as a high-level Cleric, not a Warlock.

It's almost certainly a reference to the fact that Redcloak's deity is actually named "The Dark One".

I think you need to reexamine your definition of 'obscure'. Warlock was quite possibly the most well known non-core class in 3e, which is probably why it became a core class later. It's even been mentioned in this comic before.

[danielxcutter]

I think you need to reexamine your definition of 'obscure'. Warlock was quite possibly the most well known non-core class in 3e, which is probably why it became a core class later. It's even been mentioned in this comic before.

Yeah but how many people remember what it does besides Eldritch [BLAST], though?

[burpbot]

Yeah but how many people remember what it does besides Eldritch Blast though?

It gets a bunch of at will SLAs/ways to modify eldritch blast and a few elemental resistances. It's really not that hard to remember.

[Rockphed]

Yeah but how many people remember what it does besides Eldritch [BLAST], though?

I can zap people at will all day every day? Sign me up for magical mayhem.

[danielxcutter]

It gets a bunch of at will SLAs/ways to modify eldritch blast and a few elemental resistances. It's really not that hard to remember.

Well who remembers what those SLAs do? Also I'm pretty sure they're called "energy resistances" in 3.5e. People probably get what you mean though.

I can zap people at will all day every day? Sign me up for magical mayhem.

Oh, 5e Warlocks are pretty much Eldritch [BLAST] dispensers on legs but the 3.5e version will still be doing that a lot of the time anyways so yeah welcome aboard, I just need your immortal soul and your firstborn child.

[Rockphed]

Oh, 5e Warlocks are pretty much Eldritch [BLAST] dispensers on legs but the 3.5e version will still be doing that a lot of the time anyways so yeah welcome aboard, I just need your immortal soul and your firstborn child.

I happen to have a large supply of souls available for trade, but as a dragon I have other options for consistently zapping people who annoy me.

[danielxcutter]

I happen to have a large supply of souls available for trade, but as a dragon I have other options for consistently zapping people who annoy me.

Well yeah but Warlocks can literally Eldritch [BLAST] 24/7 and the only thing stopping you would be the DM using the sleeping rules.

Actually 5e Warlocks are even better at that, but 3.5e Warlocks still have a go-to if they're not sure which underwhelming SLA they're sure to use.

(yes i am aware that not all invocations suck)

[Metastachydium]

Actually 5e Warlocks are even better at that, but 3.5e Warlocks still have a go-to if they're not sure which underwhelming SLA they're sure to use.

Neither can make Constitution attacks against Fortitude, though (I think I've figured out how attack rolls work in 4e, but I'm probably wrong).

[danielxcutter]

Neither can make Constitution attacks against Fortitude, though (I think I've figured out how attack rolls work in 4e, but I'm probably wrong).

There's a school of thought that the only stat that matters is hit points and that the goal is to change it to 0.

I mean, I don't entirely agree but it's not completely wrong either.

[bunsen_h]

And, if there's some serious extraplanar or teleportation work put into the dungeon design, Roy's knowledge (architecture) may be useless. The real dungeon may be in a scale far different than is apparent - which you'd expect from a rogue.

A strong sense of how rooms fit together with respect to each other may be extremely useful in figuring out what's going on. It may help in spotting the patterns that will lead to solving the puzzle -- noticing the 5D equivalent of the space that a hidden room is hidden in, for example. Figuring out what's being left out of "so many twistings and turnings".

"Okay, we've been through 39 rooms of what looks like it should be a 5-cube. There should be one more room. We need to check... um... the north wall of the room with the weird vase, the ceiling of the room with the lurker of course... um..."

[Bisqwit]

"Okay, we've been through 39 rooms of what looks like it should be a 5-cube. There should be one more room. We need to check... um... the north wall of the room with the weird vase, the ceiling of the room with the lurker of course... um..."

Well that would be Roy’s cup of tea, considering his Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's a school of thought that the only stat that matters is hit points and that the goal is to change it to 0.

I mean, I don't entirely agree but it's not completely wrong either.

From what I remember of TSR's old Alternity game, the stat to hit was Fatigue. Serious penalties with every point you peeled off, and most people only had 5-7.

[WanderingMist]

Again, I strongly hope otherwise. „Every dungeon is actually two dungeons, and one of the two are hard to find” could work as a defense quite well, especially if both dungeons are guarded by something. „Every dungeon leads to the prize if you have a rogue” is a horrible defense which is arguably a lot weaker than the brute force system of dungeons the Tomb seems to be at first sight, and thus Serini would have to be very dumb to set up such a defense. Granted, after what she did with the coordinates, Serini might in fact be really dumb, but still.



We had an ample discussion on this topic with Goblin Priest and others (starts about here, give or take a few pages). Our conclusion was that the strongest candidates are (half-)dragons, with outsiders as the runners up.

Your conclusion. Don't go speaking for everyone.

[Wraithfighter]

I'm not sure what you mean by "the same destination". The doors appear to lead to distinct dungeons. Oona doesn't expect that a given doorway, having been cleared of its monsters recently, should have been repopulated so quickly.

The issue with that for me is that Oona's tribe is based here. Presumably, at some point in the past, they've cleared out a dungeon for loot, and then gone back in a bit later to find it empty.

Basically, Oona can be expected to know about how the place works that can be learned without being a very high-level spellcaster or rogue (or, obviously, without exploring every single door in an exhaustive manner). Doubly so with regards to traps: Oona's tribe has farmed the gate for a while, never seeming to notice that they were encountering any traps, so not only did they not bother to bring along anyone with enough spot and the feats/abilities needed to find traps, but they happily told Xykon and Redcloak that, who have taken it as a known fact of the place.

This is a lot of supposition, sure, but it's based on the assumption that Team Evil is acting moderately intelligently, which is usually something I feel free to assume :).

[Metastachydium]

Your conclusion. Don't go speaking for everyone.

By we I mostly meant Goblin Priest and myself, since we did much of the talking, and we came to mostly agree; also I kind of ignored the speculations about half-fiendish girallons and strangely speaking halflings. Sorry for the miscommunication.
At any rate, there are good arguments for considering the Voices (half-)dragons (or outsiders), whilst I'm yet to see any for Fey (because no, „they have magic” won't do).

[danielxcutter]

You know, off the top of my head I can’t think of many fey that actually have wings. Heck, most of them can’t fly if you count the non-core ones.

[ShinigamiKenji]

Could we appreciate the fact that this comic started in a dungeon - which would be endless when it started - and we circled back to that concept in a much cooler way?

[danielxcutter]

Could we appreciate the fact that this comic started in a dungeon - which would be endless when it started - and we circled back to that concept in a much cooler way?

*raises finger*

*lowers finger*

Huh.

[Scoper]

Oona's tribe has farmed the gate for a while, never seeming to notice that they were encountering any traps, so not only did they not bother to bring along anyone with enough spot and the feats/abilities needed to find traps, but they happily told Xykon and Redcloak that, who have taken it as a known fact of the place.

Either that, or Oona's tribe know the tomb's secrets and keep them secret. They may be working with Serini. How did they manage to evade the high level monsters while hunting the weaker ones?

I also suspect that Xykon knows about the portal traps, but simply didn't bother telling Redcloak. After all, he cares more about killing stuff than finding the gate. That would make for an amusing conversation later, when RC finally figures it out.

[Metastachydium]

I also suspect that Xykon knows about the portal traps, but simply didn't bother telling Redcloak. After all, he cares more about killing stuff than finding the gate. That would make for an amusing conversation later, when RC finally figures it out.

Exactly! Their alliance will fall apart, but not because Big X will realize that Redcloak's been deceiving him. Rather, it will happen because Xykon already wants to quit, and make the bugbear village his new home from where he can play the Evil adventurer. Oona will side with Xykon, buut Redcloak will find new allies in Durkon, who'll become convinced that the only way to save the world is to help the Plan succeed, and V whom Durkon convinced that the fate of the multiverse hinges on the success of the Ritual which cannot be completed without their arcane powers. Roy and the rest of the Order will then team up with the Mystery Ally who's also the vessel of the IFCC to stop both sides.
Meanwhile, the Voices (a flying treant and four winged paladins) will blackmail the Monster whom they overheard babbling about just how much he loves O-Chul into actively sabotaging everyone else's efforts.

[GloatingSwine]

I also suspect that Xykon knows about the portal traps, but simply didn't bother telling Redcloak. After all, he cares more about killing stuff than finding the gate. That would make for an amusing conversation later, when RC finally figures it out.

It's not really that, he just doesn't care how long it takes to get to the gate. He's a lich, he's got time as long as he's actually doing something.

But when he is doing something he doesn't like to stand around and wait either, so he's almost certainly not letting anyone stop to check for traps.

[bunsen_h]

It's not really that, he just doesn't care how long it takes to get to the gate. He's a lich, he's got time as long as he's actually doing something.

But when he is doing something he doesn't like to stand around and wait either, so he's almost certainly not letting anyone stop to check for traps.

I'm not convinced that he would blow off a trap check if he knew that a powerful trap was almost certainly present, just on the basis that it had always proved harmless in the past. A reasonable assumption would be that the dungeon with the Gate might be set up differently. Granted, the door to this one was marked, implying that they'd already been through it, but they'd just been into a counterexample.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, there's also the detail that Xykon is immune to a lot of traps. Poison needle? Mummy rot curse? Random low-level evocation effect? Even the old standby of swinging scythe blades likely won't get through his DR. Acid sprays are likely the only thing that'd give him much trouble and that's what his harmbot is for.

[Masterchowder74]

I might have missed the discussion, but isn't this rift outside? The crayons of time seem to show it outside.

Maybe the whole area is covered up in some illusion. Just because Soon Kim and Girard weren't buddies anymore doesn't really mean that Serini couldn't have gotten assistance from anyone to protect her area, right? Lirian and Dorukan visited each other.

Maybe there's an illusion/portal/camoflage/whatever over the whole area that affects anyone in the area and the only way around it is to enter one of the dungeons without springing the trap and triggering it on the way out.

Would be a good use of Kraagor's tomb as redirection since Serini is a rogue and her buddy(?) Girard is an illusionist. Could have got Dorukon in on it as well perhaps even Lirian.

[bunsen_h]

Well, there's also the detail that Xykon is immune to a lot of traps. Poison needle? Mummy rot curse? Random low-level evocation effect? Even the old standby of swinging scythe blades likely won't get through his DR. Acid sprays are likely the only thing that'd give him much trouble and that's what his harmbot is for.

It would be amusing (if narratively unsatisfying) if Xykon ultimately got taken out by a "Sphere of Annihilation in a statue's mouth" trap.

EDIT: I'm not familiar with the term "harmbot" -- that's a reference to Redcloak doing Harm spells?