OOTS #1222 - The Discussion Thread

[Rockphed]

I might have missed the discussion, but isn't this rift outside? The crayons of time seem to show it outside.

Maybe the whole area is covered up in some illusion. Just because Soon Kim and Girard weren't buddies anymore doesn't really mean that Serini couldn't have gotten assistance from anyone to protect her area, right? Lirian and Dorukan visited each other.

Maybe there's an illusion/portal/camoflage/whatever over the whole area that affects anyone in the area and the only way around it is to enter one of the dungeons without springing the trap and triggering it on the way out.

Would be a good use of Kraagor's tomb as redirection since Serini is a rogue and her buddy(?) Girard is an illusionist. Could have got Dorukon in on it as well perhaps even Lirian.

While I agree that Serini was the most likely of the group to actually use the methods of the others in her defense, and she had reason to be grumpy at Soon about Kraagor's death, I don't think she would have included the other 3 in her defenses without also talking to Soon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe the whole area is covered up in some illusion.

If it was an illusion, Redcloak would've just seen through it with his True Seeing spell.

And yes Bunsen, I was punning on healbots and the Heal/Harm inversion.

[SympathyBot]

While I agree that Serini was the most likely of the group to actually use the methods of the others in her defense, and she had reason to be grumpy at Soon about Kraagor's death, I don't think she would have included the other 3 in her defenses without also talking to Soon.

I definitely think Serini used everybody's abilities to guard her gate. And its probably easier without Soon even knowing his Sapphire Guard was part of her plan. I think thats why Ochul and Lien were retrieved by the invisible people. The teleportation trap feels super Dorukan-y and I suspect we will see more evidence as they actually go through the dungeon. Who knows though!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I might have missed the discussion, but isn't this rift outside? The crayons of time seem to show it outside.

The whole tomb is built up out of multidimensional stone. Therefore, it is likely the entire thing is artificially constructed around the rift, who used to be in the open but now is somewhere within the mountain of special rock.

GW

[Necris Omega]

Is there any consensus about what tune Xykon was "doo-doo"ing before disapparating?

I'm thinking Mahna Mahna or possibly Baby Shark.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is there any consensus about what tune Xykon was "doo-doo"ing before disapparating?

I'm thinking Mahna Mahna or possibly Baby Shark.

h/t Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens
Tchaikovsky's 'Another One Bites the Dust'.

[Dion]

Is there any consensus about what tune Xykon was "doo-doo"ing before disapparating?

O Buddy Roy

[Ghosty]

I thought it was a funeral march. Like Chopin's. Fits with his, "...There might be cool stuff to murder in here!"

I'd considered the Jeopardy! 30 seconds of writing music, but the cadence seems off.

[F.Harr]

Well, that's unexpected. How interesting!

By the way: A Merry Christmas* and a Happy New Year all! And may next year be at least . . . um . . . 75% less pandemicky.

* Or whatever holiday or none at all, this is about good wishes, dude.

[locksmith of lo]

Is there any consensus about what tune Xykon was "doo-doo"ing before disapparating?

I'm thinking Mahna Mahna or possibly Baby Shark.

i was thinking the rolling stones song, but how could i forget the mahna mahna song? but now in my head he did not get it from the muppets but from the original italian exploitation film.

[bunsen_h]

Is there any consensus about what tune Xykon was "doo-doo"ing before disapparating?

I'm thinking Mahna Mahna or possibly Baby Shark.

"Here comes the bride..."

EDIT:

I thought it was a funeral march. Like Chopin's. Fits with his, "...There might be cool stuff to murder in here!"

Urgh. Yes, of course that's it.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

"Hello, Xykon. It's past time you paid for everyone you've hurt."

Short, simple, and more powerful than usual for Roy's dialogue. I could buy this as a line he's thought of for a long time, thinking of what the perfect thing to say at that point would be.

[Dilvish]

Ah ha, so it does work like that!

Also Belkar's line at the end, just perfection.

I signed in just to comment on Belkar's line and Elan's expression. I share your opinion about Belkar's line.

[bunsen_h]

"Hello, Xykon. It's past time you paid for everyone you've hurt."

Short, simple, and more powerful than usual for Roy's dialogue. I could buy this as a line he's thought of for a long time, thinking of what the perfect thing to say at that point would be.

So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the flying skeleton and say, "Hello. My name is Roy Greenhilt. You killed my father's master. Prepare to die."

That's not bad! But maybe we can tighten it up a bit. For starters, he's already sort of dead. When you're delivering a line like that, you don't want to leave an opening for a really obvious response.

[Menas]

So the next time we meet, I will not fail. I will go up to the flying skeleton and say, "Hello. My name is Roy Greenhilt. You killed my father's master. Prepare to die."

That's not bad! But maybe we can tighten it up a bit. For starters, he's already sort of dead. When you're delivering a line like that, you don't want to leave an opening for a really obvious response.

Ok, then how does this sound -

"Hello. My name is Roy Greenhilt. You killed my father's master. Prepare to die... again."

[Rules Lawyer #1]

The whole tomb is built up out of multidimensional stone. Therefore, it is likely the entire thing is artificially constructed around the rift, who used to be in the open but now is somewhere within the mountain of special rock.

GW

Yeah, people are saying teleportation, but it might be extra-dimensional space (which is not the same thing as extra-planar space). In fact, extra-planar space would mean the Telepathic Bond would fail.

"Well, I'm not getting fooled by Meld Into Stone again. True Seeing!"
Tree Seeing wouldn't help Redcloak find someone Melded Into Stone because True Seeing does not allow you to see through objects. Does Redcloak have something providing X-ray vision?
But if he did have X-ray vision, then he should be able to see through multidimensional stone (extra-dimensions not withstanding). Therefore, I do find Redcloak's action a bit out-of-place with his comment. I think, however, that it is meant to set up for his next comment...
"Give me a minute, I'm scanning for illusions!" That's something a player would use Tree Seeing to do.

This seems designed to inform us that it is not an illusion effect that hides the OotS.

However there are two major problems with the situation in the tunnel (multi-dimensional stone not withstanding).
1. The OotS can see Team Evil.
2. True Seeing specifically calls out that "For the duration, the creature has truesight, notices secret doors hidden by magic, and can see into the Ethereal Plane, all out to a range of 120 feet." In other words, it isn't just true sight, it means the "trap" can't be magically concealing a secret door.

Teleportation doesn't solve the problem, because vision of Team Evil would imply an invisibility effect, as all such vision effects involve invisible magical sensors.
So it doesn't work... at least it doesn't work this way. It can't just be multi-dimensional stone hiding a secret door.

Is the Giant really is just waving the hand ever so slightly here and taking a little bit of liberty with the effects of multidimensional stone?

Well... it turns out there's a little spell that many players might overlook in the Player's Handbook called Nondetection.
"For the duration, you hide a target that you touch from divination magic. The target can be a willing creature or a place or an object no larger than 10 feet in any dimension. The target can’t be targeted by any divination magic or perceived through magical scrying sensors."
True Seeing is a divination spell. So the entire issue is solved if there is some sort of permanent Nondetection type effect on that area. This is my conclusion barring further information on the question.

This was a fascinating comic this time around! Lots to think about! I wonder what the Giant will reveal next!

[mjasghar]

From the SRD
sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.
Meld with Stone is a transmutation spell so it’s not a great stretch to infer true seeing would help

[Metastachydium]

I think, however, that it is meant to set up for his next comment...
"Give me a minute, I'm scanning for illusions!" That's something a player would use Tree Seeing to do.

I'm pretty sure I'd only use Tree Seeing for seeing trees.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure I'd only use Tree Seeing for seeing trees.

You'd miss a lot of forests, though.

[Rules Lawyer #1]

From the SRD
sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things.
Meld with Stone is a transmutation spell so it’s not a great stretch to infer true seeing would help

The Stone into which a caster Melds has not been transmuted. It is the caster that has been transmuted. Although True Seeing allows you to "see things as they actually are" it doesn't let you see through solid objects as if you had X-Ray vision. For that you need... X-Ray vision. For example, the people melded into stone can't see anything outside of it but they can hear things outside of it. It's vision blocking. Harming the stone does nothing to those melded until the size of the stone is no longer large enough to fit them inside. Etc.

But either way, it just drives the point home harder. If for some strange reason True Seeing could be used to see people behind stone, then it should be that Redcloak would've seen the OotS behind their multi-dimensional stone. Of course even if True Seeing can't see through stone, it does reveal secret doors hidden using magic. So True Seeing would reveal the secret entrance the OotS walked through in either case regardless of the school of magic used to hide the secret door.

I also thought of a couple more things to add to the discussion. It's reasonable to assume that Team Evil has used Detect Magic already in these dungeons, which would've of revealed the tiny line of magical runes in other caves (Haley spotted the runes in multiple caves). So there practically has to be some form of magic specifically preventing divination just to keep these runes from being discovered by Team Evil. In addition to Nondetection there is Private Sanctum. There may be other things as well.

So I think I'll double down on this. I mean it could be GM Hax... and the meme of the adventure designed to make party abilities useless is always lurking... but the simpler thing is that it's been concealed from divination using magic. I realize that might just sound like GM Hax made rules legal... but w/e. I mean the other option is that the Giant is just making multidimensional stone invalidate party capabilities just for the purposes of fitting his "narrative structure"... hmm, actually that sounds entirely possible... Belkar is a genius. Don't look so surprised Elan.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure it does transmute the stone, actually. I don't know if that should allow True Seeing to see through it, but it seems like Rich is either ruling it that way or doesn't really care about the specific rules at this point. And whether or not, True Seeing is a valid choice to make extra sure there aren't any illusions or whatnot concealing enemies.

[Metastachydium]

I'm pretty sure it does transmute the stone, actually.

That's how the Giant seems to interpret it as well (note how Durkon and Minrah remain corporeal and intact, while the ground opens up around them so that they can sink into it).

I don't know if that should allow True Seeing to see through it, but it seems like Rich is either ruling it that way or doesn't really care about the specific rules at this point. And whether or not, True Seeing is a valid choice to make extra sure there aren't any illusions or whatnot concealing enemies.

If the stone gets transmuted, Redcloak does not have to see through it. All he needs True Seeing for is to identify specific patches of rock on the surface that have been subject to transmutation effects.

[bunsen_h]

I also thought of a couple more things to add to the discussion. It's reasonable to assume that Team Evil has used Detect Magic already in these dungeons, which would've of revealed the tiny line of magical runes in other caves (Haley spotted the runes in multiple caves). So there practically has to be some form of magic specifically preventing divination just to keep these runes from being discovered by Team Evil. In addition to Nondetection there is Private Sanctum. There may be other things as well.

I gather (from these discussions) that only rogues are able to detect these kinds of traps, regardless of more general application of Detect Magic..?

[Goblin_Priest]

While in the stone, the character remains in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which the character melded.

Maybe that's what it'd show?

[mjasghar]

More importantly there’s no statement that the stone is shifted into another dimension etc - that is, the stone is now a mixture of the melded being and the stone. So the stone is transmuted

[Underground]

One of the aspects I dont like about D&D, and have never liked: you're practically forced to have a Rogue in the group.

Sure, you can freely choose if your group Tank is Fighter, Paladin, Ranger or Barbarian, each with their pros and cons.

Group mage ? Okay, D&D doesnt have too many choices, but it can be Wizard/Mage or Sorcerer. Heck, maybe even Warlock ...

Group healer, well that can be Cleric or Druid, and maybe Favored Soul, or Shaman.

But you have to have a Rogue/Thief. No choice there. Bard cannot compensate for a missing Rogue/Thief, either. Bard is one of these "additional" toy classes, like Monk and Warlock, which really is neither here nor there and doesnt really clearly fill a group task as such.

Thankfully you can have a high intelligence minimal Rogue that multiclasses to Fighter or Barbarian or Ranger.

Anyway Team Evil misses a Rogue in group, so thats their problem.

I haven't been following the discussion threads too closely, but I'd say this is definite confirmation that there's some kind of extraplanar weirdness going on with the tunnels.

Wasnt that already explicity said in #1040, panel #3 ?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html

"If this ravine hadn't been built up out of multidimensional stone, you could just ghostform your way through the -"

The question is, does this thing exist behind all the doors, or just this one?

Both doors Team Good checked so I would assume that every single door has it.

I did not see that coming.

Me neither.

I had trouble to understand whats going on at all.

I dont really fully understand it. Why does the sword just vanish when it crosses the border ?

[mjasghar]

I think there’s been a good explanation
They are still on the same plane because of the telepathy working
So it’s probable they’ve been shifted to another area but somehow can still see the area they left
The sword is in that new area but just visually blocked off by the illusionary image of the portal etc

[Skull the Troll]

While I agree that Serini was the most likely of the group to actually use the methods of the others in her defense, and she had reason to be grumpy at Soon about Kraagor's death, I don't think she would have included the other 3 in her defenses without also talking to Soon.

What can a paladin add though to her dungeon? Mostly he's a fighter, when you remove the social aspect of his paladin order he doesnt bring much to the party.

[danielxcutter]

What can a paladin add though to her dungeon? Mostly he's a fighter, when you remove the social aspect of his paladin order he doesnt bring much to the party.

Smite Evil and stuff is strong, but you’re right that he wouldn’t be able to do much personally to build the dungeons.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Serini not only asked the casters to help but actively let Soon know - I mean, she’s even less capable of making a magical dungeon than Soon was.

[Rockphed]

Smite Evil and stuff is strong, but you’re right that he wouldn’t be able to do much personally to build the dungeons.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Serini not only asked the casters to help but actively let Soon know - I mean, she’s even less capable of making a magical dungeon than Soon was.

My favorite thought experiment was always the Ranger Lich. I think Paladins could technically do it too.