Would the OotS Version of Loki Accept Me, a Lawful/Neutral Good Person, as a Cleric?

[Malloon]

Wait, hear me out! I have an argument.

First though, let me say that I am going to ignore the rule of needing to be at most one alignment away from your patron of choice in order to be their cleric. Why? Well, for one, otherwise this wouldn't work; two, I've always felt it was a restriction that needlessly hampered roleplaying and should (in game) depend on the god and what they decide (though since I have not played any D&D besides AD&D there might be a nuance I'm overlooking); and three, it's a rule. Loki is Loki, and chaotic evil besides. QED. Even if it's a metaphysical rule I can bet he'd try to get around it.

Now, with that settled, here is my reason: Loki preaches doing what's best for you at any given moment. I firmly believe (and can back up with arguments) that being either Lawful or Neutral Good at all times is in fact best for me (though not necessarily for all people - and I do admit that my definition of what is good and bad is generally rather classic, but deviates in a few but significant areas). Now, on top of that, drawing power from Loki would weaken him, which is also good (or Good) in my eyes. I would try to convert more people, but only Good ones. I like scamming, scheming and manipulating, but I restrict it to board games and roleplaying games, since I firmly believe it to be wrong otherwise. This would be less of a problem in the world of OotS, since I'd get to swindle bad people. (Using chaotic means to lawful ends is why I often get placed in Neutral instead of Lawful Good in questionnaires.)

And the last but most important reason I think he might accept me is that he might appreciate me pulling a fast one.

What do you think? Do you think he'd reject me or burn me to a cinder, accept me grudgingly out of a small amount of respect for my daring to try and scam him, or accept me gleefully since I've overlooked a crucial detail that means it's really him pulling a fast one on me?

I do of course plan on renouncing him just before my death, just so he doesn't get to play with my soul for eternity. There's the risk of unexpected death, of course, but since I'd be taking the risk out of devotion to Good I think it's a toss up whether or not someone like Thor would try and intervene. And if that fails I get that chance to try and reform an entire demi-plane, so, silver lining!

[masamune1]

Now, with that settled, here is my reason: Loki preaches doing what's best for you at any given moment. I firmly believe (and can back up with arguments) that being either Lawful or Neutral Good at all times is in fact best for me (though not necessarily for all people - and I do admit that my definition of what is good and bad is generally rather classic, but deviates in a few but significant areas). Now, on top of that, drawing power from Loki would weaken him, which is also good (or Good) in my eyes. I would try to convert more people, but only Good ones. I like scamming, scheming and manipulating, but I restrict it to board games and roleplaying games, since I firmly believe it to be wrong otherwise. This would be less of a problem in the world of OotS, since I'd get to swindle bad people. (Using chaotic means to lawful ends is why I often get placed in Neutral instead of Lawful Good in questionnaires.)

And the last but most important reason I think he might accept me is that he might appreciate me pulling a fast one.

Loki likely won't agree that "being either Lawful or Neutral Good at all times is in fact best for (you)". He'll think you're simply deluding yourself and having "internalised goodyism" or something.

More to the point, going around converting people for Good in order to weaken him certainly does not count as what is best for LOKI, so even if he is bemused he might still try and kill you.

This is, of course, assuming your scam actually works and isn't either totally impotent (you are but one Cleric of Loki amongst who-knows-how-many, after all, so you would be fighting the tide) or he doesn't succeed in scamming YOU and turning YOU into a Chaotic type instead- if you "like" scamming, scheming and manipulating, you have a Chaotic side to you regardless of what any online questionnaire says about your alignment, and you are at the very least open to corruption.

Basically, trying to scam the GOD of Scams is probably going to blow up in YOUR face rather than his.

As to whether he "accepts" you though...I think on some level you have to genuinely believe in Loki yourself and commit to his cause and ways. It isn't all him- I'm not sure if DnD gods can just "make" someone a Cleric (or a Paladin) if they don't have any faith in them to begin with. And do bare in mind that even if he can, you might have to actually do Chaotic or Evil stuff in order to get more levels or use the magic- Clerics pray for their spells at certain hours, which means they are entreating their god to give them their magic, which means that their god can say "no" or "what's in it for me? What have you done for me lately?" .

So...yeah, I think the only person you are scamming here is yourself, my friend.

[Synesthesy]

Wait, hear me out! I have an argument.

First though, let me say that I am going to ignore the rule of needing to be at most one alignment away from your patron of choice in order to be their cleric. Why? Well, for one, otherwise this wouldn't work; two, I've always felt it was a restriction that needlessly hampered roleplaying and should (in game) depend on the god and what they decide (though since I have not played any D&D besides AD&D there might be a nuance I'm overlooking); and three, it's a rule. Loki is Loki, and chaotic evil besides. QED. Even if it's a metaphysical rule I can bet he'd try to get around it.

Now, with that settled, here is my reason: Loki preaches doing what's best for you at any given moment. I firmly believe (and can back up with arguments) that being either Lawful or Neutral Good at all times is in fact best for me (though not necessarily for all people - and I do admit that my definition of what is good and bad is generally rather classic, but deviates in a few but significant areas). Now, on top of that, drawing power from Loki would weaken him, which is also good (or Good) in my eyes. I would try to convert more people, but only Good ones. I like scamming, scheming and manipulating, but I restrict it to board games and roleplaying games, since I firmly believe it to be wrong otherwise. This would be less of a problem in the world of OotS, since I'd get to swindle bad people. (Using chaotic means to lawful ends is why I often get placed in Neutral instead of Lawful Good in questionnaires.)

And the last but most important reason I think he might accept me is that he might appreciate me pulling a fast one.

What do you think? Do you think he'd reject me or burn me to a cinder, accept me grudgingly out of a small amount of respect for my daring to try and scam him, or accept me gleefully since I've overlooked a crucial detail that means it's really him pulling a fast one on me?

I do of course plan on renouncing him just before my death, just so he doesn't get to play with my soul for eternity. There's the risk of unexpected death, of course, but since I'd be taking the risk out of devotion to Good I think it's a toss up whether or not someone like Thor would try and intervene. And if that fails I get that chance to try and reform an entire demi-plane, so, silver lining!

I think it is impossible if you are lawful, because if you are by definition you don't do the best for yourself, but you follow some kind of rules. And following your own rules and just your own is the definition of "chaotic".
This except if the society you live in is a very chaotic one where you are forbidden from being lawful. In this case Loki would happily accept you for the lulz.

[Peelee]

Well, one of the first questions Loki would ask is, "why do you want to worship me?" At which point, the answer probably will not satisfy him.

Also...

I do of course plan on renouncing him just before my death, just so he doesn't get to play with my soul for eternity.

I don't think that's how it works in Stickworld, and is definitely not how it works in D&D.

[Dion]

I do of course plan on renouncing him just before my death, just so he doesn't get to play with my soul for eternity.

From a game play mechanic, the only thing you get for being a cleric of Loki is the fire domain and the ability to turn undead.

You could probably worship the sun and get similar gameplay effect (After all, of there’s a creed of stone, why not a flock of sunshine?)

And don’t forget that all the other clerics of Loki cheat at cards too, so there’s no financial advantage for you either.

But on a serious note, yeah, if you want to play a lawful good cleric who worships Loki, sure... I’d let you do that. As long as you didn’t twist yourself up into knots disrupting other people’s enjoyment of the game, it could be fun. At some point, though, Loki would probably figure it out...

[tomandtish]

masamune1 summed it up best. Gods grant power to their clerics so the cleric can promote the god's domains and goals. And it's a safe bet that Loki will realize that your aims and his aren't aligned.

So either Loki doesn't accept you as a cleric at all, or he does so with the SPECIFIC intention of subverting your goals. And he can stop granting you power at any time if he feels it is warranted.

[Malloon]

Loki likely won't agree that "being either Lawful or Neutral Good at all times is in fact best for (you)". He'll think you're simply deluding yourself and having "internalised goodyism" or something.

I could make a fine argument á la Hume for why even (chaotic) evil people depend on society, and for that you need laws, and why I in particular am so influenced by moral ideas that it is in fact best for me at least to be lawful/neutral good at most if not all times, but yeah, he probably wouldn't agree.

More to the point, going around converting people for Good in order to weaken him certainly does not count as what is best for LOKI, so even if he is bemused he might still try and kill you.

I think this is probably the strongest argument against this idea, and you, the first person to reply, made it immediately. I'm impressed. Loki probably would be better in assessing whether or not I'd actually be a help or a hindrance to him than I would, and would choose accordingly. Assuming, of course, that his godly nature didn't get in the way of perceiving and reasoning rationally. And even so, wouldn't it make for a good story if he assessed the most likely outcome to be in his favour and I managed to beat the odds?

This is, of course, assuming your scam actually works and isn't either totally impotent (you are but one Cleric of Loki amongst who-knows-how-many, after all, so you would be fighting the tide) [...]

But that's always the nature of the good fight anyway, isn't it?

[...] or he doesn't succeed in scamming YOU and turning YOU into a Chaotic type instead- if you "like" scamming, scheming and manipulating, you have a Chaotic side to you regardless of what any online questionnaire says about your alignment, and you are at the very least open to corruption.

That's rather the problem of those questionnaires and the limitation of roleplaying games, isn't it? Real people are complex. I'm lawful/neutral good (or close to it) by conscience and conviction, but it isn't as if I'm a being created to be lawful/neutral good.

I would however quibble about equating chaotic tendencies with being open to corruption. Chaotic good exists, after all.

Basically, trying to scam the GOD of Scams is probably going to blow up in YOUR face rather than his.

You wouldn't call it a million-to-one chance, by chance, no? That's partly why the idea appeals to me - what a story it would make! I've always enjoyed Trickster-Archetypes surmounting seemingly impossible odds and the idea of a Lawful/Neutral Good trickster tricking the very being who would be most difficult to trick is a fun one.

As to whether he "accepts" you though...I think on some level you have to genuinely believe in Loki yourself and commit to his cause and ways. It isn't all him- I'm not sure if DnD gods can just "make" someone a Cleric (or a Paladin) if they don't have any faith in them to begin with. And do bare in mind that even if he can, you might have to actually do Chaotic or Evil stuff in order to get more levels or use the magic-[...]

Ahhh, that's metaphysical stuff. Good for interesting worldbuilding, but unless explicitly (or strongly-implicitly) part of the OotS-verse I'd prefer to go with whatever makes for a more interesting story or idea.

Clerics pray for their spells at certain hours, which means they are entreating their god to give them their magic, which means that their god can say "no" or "what's in it for me? What have you done for me lately?" .

That might be an interesting dynamic, actually. What if my interests conflict with Loki's, though? He's been shown to be amiable to people following his teachings even to his detriment. Yeah, probably not if it's too much to his detriment, as discussed, but there's some wiggle room, clearly.

So...yeah, I think the only person you are scamming here is yourself, my friend.

I suspected as much, but still, the idea intrigued and amused me too much to let go. Ah, well.

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I think it is impossible if you are lawful, because if you are by definition you don't do the best for yourself, but you follow some kind of rules. And following your own rules and just your own is the definition of "chaotic".

Well, I would argue that my conscience being as influential as it is (meaning: hurting me if I stray too much) means that (usually) being lawful and good is in fact what's best for me in most cases, the very few exceptions being relatively unimportant, lawfully and morally speaking.

I would not agree that only following your own rules makes you chaotic. You can after all be a lawful rebel in a society whose rules you disagree with or despise. Lawful means you think there should always be laws, not that all laws are good.

This except if the society you live in is a very chaotic one where you are forbidden from being lawful. In this case Loki would happily accept you for the lulz.

*Growling* The only rule: There are no rules.

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Well, one of the first questions Loki would ask is, "why do you want to worship me?" At which point, the answer probably will not satisfy him.

Because I want to do what's best for myself and teach (some) others to do so too.

*Sniff sniff* Is something burning?

Also...

I don't think that's how it works in Stickworld, and is definitely not how it works in D&D.

Maybe, possibly, probably. In all likelihood you're right, but that's boring. I'm not really looking for probability, but more a not-infinitesimally-small possibility. I probably should have specified that before. Mea culpa.

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From a game play mechanic, the only thing you get for being a cleric of Loki is the fire domain and the ability to turn undead.

You could probably worship the sun and get similar gameplay effect (After all, of there’s a creed of stone, why not a flock of sunshine?)

And don’t forget that all the other clerics of Loki cheat at cards too, so there’s no financial advantage for you either.

But on a serious note, yeah, if you want to play a lawful good cleric who worships Loki, sure... I’d let you do that. As long as you didn’t twist yourself up into knots disrupting other people’s enjoyment of the game, it could be fun. At some point, though, Loki would probably figure it out...

Excellent! I do agree the idea needs safeguards for it to work in a campaign, but I wasn't looking for that. It still wouldn't be the most high-concept/silly/self-indulgent thing I'd have played if I did do it, though.

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masamune1 summed it up best. Gods grant power to their clerics so the cleric can promote the god's domains and goals. And it's a safe bet that Loki will realize that your aims and his aren't aligned.

So either Loki doesn't accept you as a cleric at all, or he does so with the SPECIFIC intention of subverting your goals. And he can stop granting you power at any time if he feels it is warranted.

Mm, probably. But that leaves it open as a possibility, so I'll take it.

[masamune1]

I could make a fine argument á la Hume for why even (chaotic) evil people depend on society, and for that you need laws, and why I in particular am so influenced by moral ideas that it is in fact best for me at least to be lawful/neutral good at most if not all times, but yeah, he probably wouldn't agree.

I'm sure he WOULD agree; he just could point out that this doesn't mean he can or should hire any Lawful type for his cause. Chaotic needs Lawful yes...in the way a bowling ball needs pins to knock down.

I think this is probably the strongest argument against this idea, and you, the first person to reply, made it immediately. I'm impressed.

It's what I do.

That's rather the problem of those questionnaires and the limitation of roleplaying games, isn't it? Real people are complex. I'm lawful/neutral good (or close to it) by conscience and conviction, but it isn't as if I'm a being created to be lawful/neutral good.

I would however quibble about equating chaotic tendencies with being open to corruption. Chaotic good exists, after all.

I didn't mean that Chaotic tendencies meant corruption. I meant that Chaotic tendencies meant corruption when you are trying to mess with someone like Loki, a Chaotic Evil god. In fact I would say that the whole scam itself is neither especially Lawful nor even Neutral Good, and barely Chaotic Good, but rather Chaotic Foolish.

[Dion]

Because I want to do what's best for myself and teach (some) others to do so too.

Loki probably loves characters who trick themselves into imagining they’re good when they’re actually evil.

As long as your character continues to role play that they truly believe “do what’s best for myself” is what good people do, I am sure Loki will accept your character.

You could even play it for laughs. For example, every time an alignment based spell goes off, like “protection from evil”, your actually-evil-but-thinks-he’s-good character can claim that he’s not affected by the spell, but must have eaten some bad fish.

Or, you could go on a quest to find lead-based armor, to block the “detect evil” spells you believe all the paladins are mistaken about.

In short, I think it would be hilarious to play a character who thinks “do what’s best for myself” makes him a good character. Loki would certainly love that.

If your DM and the other players enjoy that kind of thing too, I encourage you to do that!

[RatElemental]

Also...

I don't think that's how it works in Stickworld, and is definitely not how it works in D&D.

One of the vestiges did exactly that, actually. A renowned thief and follower of Olidammara, god of thieves, renounced his faith on his deathbed to steal his own soul from his god. Olidammara could have accepted his soul anyway, but to do so would have ruined such a clever heist that he didn't. With no other gods to claim him the soul entered the limbo between existence and nonexistence that is being a vestige.

[theNater]

Now, on top of that, drawing power from Loki would weaken him, which is also good (or Good) in my eyes.

I wanted to look at this part, keeping in mind Thor's food pyramid of the gods.

Being a cleric is not a one-way street. Worshipping is part of the deal, so even if your deathbed conversion keeps Loki from your dedication and soul, you're still providing him a lifetime worth of worship. Maybe you're planning on excessive and exorbitant spell use to overcome your worship provided, but remember that Loki is an active participant in this arrangement. If he feels he's not getting a good return on his investment, he can cut you off at any time, including during combat.

[Underground]

In a rulesystem which allows even quite lowlevel characters to know your precise alignment, what the OP proposes is just not possible.

I once played a lawful good cleric of Oghma (Forgotten Realms). That worked because the rules allow it (Oghma doesnt care about the alignment of his clerics) and because Oghma only cares about knowledge, and so did my cleric (Irritatingly though my group and the DM acted as if my character would be some sort of Paladin. Lawful good characters arent all paladins).

The OP however tries, as a cleric, to fool his deity, and thats just not going to end well.

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