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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE?

    I'm working on my setting again, and in particular fleshing out some of the ranger orders that exist in my setting.

    I've tagged one of them as Lawful Evil- their members are typically Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil, and they claim to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. They bring harsh "justice" to those that most would say deserve it, and they operate more like an order of assassins than one of rangers. I figure they're motivated more by revenge than compassion, and take a greater interest in punishing the wicked than protecting anyone.

    I wanna make these guys interesting.
    Last edited by MonkeySage; 2020-12-20 at 05:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    First of all: I think it's better to design a character/organisation, and then establish what alignment they fit best into.

    From your brief description, there doesn't seem to be much selfishness and willingness to hurt others for your own benefits involved. Unless those guys are trigger-happy and don't make sure they are actually punishing guilty people, I would be inclined to tag them as leaning Lawful Neutral more than Lawful Evil.

    Now, if the organisation was run like the mob, with the rangers effectively controlling a territory and demanding compliance, obedience and taxes from the people living there, lest they be labelled "wicked" and hunted down... Yeah, that'd be Lawful Evil.

    But just being extremely focused on retributive justice doesn't cut it, I think. It's ok to imagine most Good and Chaotic characters won't be fans of how those rangers go about fulfilling their goals - such as being extremely strict, always doling out the worst lawful punishment and generally being brutal in their methods -, but capital-E Evil demands the organisation be run on the principle that no price is too much to pay as long as justice is delivered, or that they be sworn to Evil powers, or that they use their role to also progress their personal interests on top of delivering justice.

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    I'm reminded of the Operative, from Serenity... he wants a better world, and is willing to do anything to make it happen, including killing good people who threaten stability.

    So, you've got this order of rangers. They go out and murder bandits, but they keep the loot (or do with it as they see fit). They cut deals with other LE groups to help ensure stability... they may keep a hobgoblin kingdom in place on one side, because they keep stability, even if they know that the hobgoblins will eventually need to be killed. They destroy free-willed undead, but raise their enemies as zombies and skeletons to do menial labor. If a village gets out of line, they may poison the whole village as a warning.

    Basically, they do extreme things to enforce their idea of "goodness" and "order". Whereas a good order would seek to alleviate harm, an evil order just tries to stop the bad guys... whatever the cost, and whoever they may be.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I'm working on my setting again, and in particular fleshing out some of the ranger orders that exist in my setting.

    I've tagged one of them as Lawful Evil- their members are typically Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil, and they claim to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. They bring harsh "justice" to those that most would say deserve it, and they operate more like an order of assassins than one of rangers. I figure they're motivated more by revenge than compassion, and take a greater interest in punishing the wicked than protecting anyone.

    I wanna make these guys interesting.
    I dunnoh, what do you think The Punisher's alignment is? (Frank Castle in the comics)
    That sounds a bit like what your vengeful rangers are doing- acting as judge, jury, and executioner for anyone they deem evil, taking very absolutist moral stance about the "justice" aspect and focusing more on punishment than on restoring what was lost to the victims or rehabilitating the badguys.
    The bit about "protecting the innocent" could be just a PR move; there's plenty of examples, both real and fictional, of organizations whose stated goal don't jive exactly with what other people would expect of them.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Public and inhumane executions of people are a good option. Bandits, highwaymen, tax dodgers, pickpockets, drunkards, vagrants, serfs fleeing unjust feudal contracts, runaway children, goblins who steal chickens, so on and so forth, all strung along major roads on crosses left to die of exposure, left to rot in iron cages hanging from posts, hung-drawn-and-quartered in village and town squares, their heads preserved with tar and posted on stakes. When in a mood that doesn't dictate they kill their captives they would probably just flog them half to death, cut off a hand or publically starve them for a few days.

    Plenty of grisly inhumane stuff that can be done, and medieval societies sometimes punished pretty banal crimes with death or mutilation.

    Homeless kid steals a cabbage? Put them in the stocks for two days and cut off their ears. Give them a warning for vagrancy while you're at it.

    Bereaved widower gets drunk and is a nuisance too much? Public whipping. They continue being sad and drinking? Whip them more and put them in the stocks. If they keep offending start mutilating them or outright execute them.

    Goblin gets caught stealing a chicken? Put them in a gibbet cage hanging along the village road and leave them to starve.

    Catch a bandit troupe alive? Take them to a town square, somewhere they might have had sympathisers or accomplices preferably, whip the leader until they can't stand then cut their head off. Then hang the others you caught. Make sure the town's people are present to watch the example.

    Convicted someone for treason? Public flogging, mutiliation, tearing them apart and preserving their butchered remains for all to see. Doesn't matter if the treason they committed was actually bad, just that they did it.



    I could go on, but basically the gist of my suggestion is just embracing the rather extreme punishments used in the real world, combined with the terror tactics sometimes associated with said punishments. LN members performing such acts would consider them justified by the criminal nature of their victims, seeing them as threats to governmental authority or the wellbeing of society and the display of their remains a warning to keep borderline members of society on the straight and narrow. LE members would actively enjoy their duties, taking pleasure in the dispensation of cruel justice rather than viewing it as grim but necessary work.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    That looks like an organisation with for unofficial moto "Sometimes, what really need is the biggest jerk available. Not someone that will get softer because 'they recently lost their loved one' or 'they were starving' or some other kind of empathetic nonsense. The law is the law."
    [Substitute "the law is the law" by "a contract is a contract" if the organisation doesn't really follow the law].

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I'm working on my setting again, and in particular fleshing out some of the ranger orders that exist in my setting.

    I've tagged one of them as Lawful Evil- their members are typically Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil, and they claim to protect the innocent and punish the wicked. They bring harsh "justice" to those that most would say deserve it, and they operate more like an order of assassins than one of rangers. I figure they're motivated more by revenge than compassion, and take a greater interest in punishing the wicked than protecting anyone.
    The obvious way to make them LE, at least for me, would be to have some of their members be not so discerning about who they target for their justice - if they get reports of a corrupt tax collector soliciting bribes, some of the members won't care to make sure that they've got the right tax collector, they'll just put the nearest tax man's head on a pike in order to 'send a message', regardless of if he was the one personally wronging people or not. Likewise, if the local elves decide to rustle some cattle, they might start lighting forest fires as a reprisal. Not seeking to make things equal, but to send a 'Do NOT mess with the people under our protection' message. But... that's not all of them. Some of them actually do care and try to reign in the meatheads in their order. It's a struggle, but it's an internal one - they have to put on a strong face for outsiders, and that means not airing their dirty laundry or showing weakness in public.

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I'm reminded of the Operative, from Serenity... he wants a better world, and is willing to do anything to make it happen, including killing good people who threaten stability.

    So, you've got this order of rangers. They go out and murder bandits, but they keep the loot (or do with it as they see fit). They cut deals with other LE groups to help ensure stability... they may keep a hobgoblin kingdom in place on one side, because they keep stability, even if they know that the hobgoblins will eventually need to be killed. They destroy free-willed undead, but raise their enemies as zombies and skeletons to do menial labor. If a village gets out of line, they may poison the whole village as a warning.

    Basically, they do extreme things to enforce their idea of "goodness" and "order". Whereas a good order would seek to alleviate harm, an evil order just tries to stop the bad guys... whatever the cost, and whoever they may be.
    This.

    Basically, the notion of doing the wrong thing for the right reason - visiting capital-E Evil upon capital-E Evil - can go in an LE direction. Arbitrary alignment being what it is, there are certain things that are clearly Evil. As I have often said in the past, the line between Neutral and Evil is one of excess - the LN character does what is necessary, while the LE character goes *beyond* that. The LN character will simply stop the bandits who prey on the local farmers; the LE characters will display them on pikes as a deterrent to others. One organ per pike. The LN will detain or execute them as needed; the LE will make them suffer first. Loudly. Because, again, to the LE character, that suffering produces the best result - deterrence.

    Yes. Your order can be Lawful Evil, despite existing to protect the innocent, because they also exist to punish the wicked.

    How to make them interesting? Well, there are a lot of ways. One of my favorites is to make them jobbers. You know, ordinary people living ordinary lives. Friendly baker, shy gardener, normal folks. And then they get the call. The face goes blank, the mask comes on, and they perform their jobs with a ruthlessness and cruelty that should turn the stomach. And then when the task is done they vanish back into society again, and the smiles come back.

    I had a character like this once. A Ruby Knight Vindicator. In 3.5, those are basically armored Church Assassins for Wee Jas, also known as the Stern Lady. My character took the name Rose, and she was an ordinary, sweet, quiet person. Had a small house, maintained a garden. Friendly to neighbors, so good with children, baked cookies. This wasn't a disguise, either - this was who she truly was. And then she would periodically receive a letter with the Church's seal on it, and she would go into her closet, open a small chest, take out a red mask, a cloak, and a chain shirt, lock up her house, and go traveling for a few weeks. She would track down whoever it was, murder them horribly without any expression or sympathy, take out anyone around them for good measure, then come home. Then she'd put away the mask and armor, wash her hands, and bake some cookies.

    I feel like that makes a character compelling. The dichotomy of the person in life and the person serving a cause. Not necessarily a conflict - Rose had absolutely zero compunctions about her duties to the Stern Lady - but just a shocking dichotomy.
    Last edited by Red Fel; 2020-12-21 at 11:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    I suspect a great deal of this is also going to come down to what/who they decide is wicked vs innocent, and outside of that how they treat the innocents they are supposedly protecting. How far will they go to save you from yourself?

    Also, at what point does opposing the goals of the great ranger crusade become wicked in its own right, even. If you don’t know you’re doing? Say a lord/judge/magister who isn’t corrupt, but prefers to only convict if there is overwhelming evidence because he believes in a light hand?

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    I thought of another possible pop-culture reference- Judge Dredd (and associates), at least from the recent movie. I never read the original comics.

    Anywho, I'm still unclear on why the OP thinks its better for his group to be Evil, but to cross the line from just lawful-mean to outright evil I think there needs to be some other factor besides just REALLY ENTHUSIASTIC about the punishment aspect of justice. Like, the system needs to be overly-punitive, or the enforcers don't care about bystanders or innocents getting hurt in the process (collateral damage), or maybe even taking a little to much pleasure in your death-dealing, etc.
    Or maybe something like secret-police that are enforcing unfair laws, but that's not quite what the OP was asking about.

    Like if a ranger sees someone littering and hauls them off for death-by-torture, that's evil. Or if in apprehending someone you burn down an entire tavern full of people, that's evil. If you're just hunting down criminals outside the typical justice system that's (IMO) simply being a bounty-hunter or vigilante.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I thought of another possible pop-culture reference- Judge Dredd (and associates), at least from the recent movie. I never read the original comics.

    Anywho, I'm still unclear on why the OP thinks its better for his group to be Evil, but to cross the line from just lawful-mean to outright evil I think there needs to be some other factor besides just REALLY ENTHUSIASTIC about the punishment aspect of justice. Like, the system needs to be overly-punitive, or the enforcers don't care about bystanders or innocents getting hurt in the process (collateral damage), or maybe even taking a little to much pleasure in your death-dealing, etc.
    Or maybe something like secret-police that are enforcing unfair laws, but that's not quite what the OP was asking about.

    Like if a ranger sees someone littering and hauls them off for death-by-torture, that's evil. Or if in apprehending someone you burn down an entire tavern full of people, that's evil. If you're just hunting down criminals outside the typical justice system that's (IMO) simply being a bounty-hunter or vigilante.
    I'm just detailing the different groups of rangers. I have a wood elven group, that defend their native woodlands- they're chaotic good. Two groups are neutral good, with one serving as guides in the wilderness, and the other as a group of vampire hunters. One is lawful good, and committed to preserving a valley that a large population of halflings call home. I have a group of chaotic evil rangers, that happens to also be a werewolf cult. I wanted to know what a group of lawful evil rangers might look like- and I had the idea of "punish the wicked and protect the innocent" in mind.
    Last edited by MonkeySage; 2020-12-24 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeySage View Post
    I wanted to know what a group of lawful evil rangers might look like- and I had the idea of "punish the wicked and protect the innocent" in mind.
    In theory, they could look like any other LE group. I don't think alignment is the be-all and end-all of character creation, but you'd expect people of a similar alignment to share some traits and probably pursue similar goals or courses of action.

    I've frequently thought that most important defining line between good and evil was that good does for others while evil does for itself, but then another forum-poster made an excellent point that evil is not simply self-interested. Neutral can be self-interested, and even good doesn't have to turn down a reward if offered- no, the real point of evil is that it's self-interested AT SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPENSE. Evil actively seeks out to harm other people, whenever they can get away with it (and often just for gits and shiggles).

    Imagine a footrace where one contestant shows up late because their bus broke down or something, and they've been on the road all night long. A good person might offer to postpone the race, or sends over their own coach with towels and snacks because they want things to be as fair as possible. A neutral person might just insist the race go on as planned because it's not THEIR responsibility for the other guy. An evil person takes the opportunity while the opponent is distracted to spike their water-bottle because "**** you".


    So before I get too sidetracked with random alignment junk let me get back to your original question- what sort evil-but-inside-a-system (gotta remember the lawful bit, too) activities would a group of rangers find their talents suited for? How about assassinations? Something like the John Wick universe where they'll take out a contract on anyone for a fair price, see that it gets done, and then expect to be paid in full.
    Or many kinds of organized crime, really. Something like the Mafia's code of omertà, racist requirements for entry, bureaucratic hierarchy, and emphasis on things like protection rackets seem to be pretty LE activities to me. And if their organization wasn't strictly rangers, I feel like they could fill a good role, what with spying on people, following or intimidating witnesses, misleading law-enforcement, taking out enemies, etc.

    I'm just kinda spitballing here so let me know if any of this sounds like it's working for you, or if you want to take things in a different direction.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    You don't need to take pleasure or gain personally from evil acts to be evil, you just need to commit them with little to no remorse.

    If you show up to a 9-5 job five days a week where you boil infants because it's in your job description, then go home and be a perfectly nice guy, you're evil.

    If you take a job as a torturer, you're almost certainly evil pretty much regardless of why you took the job.


    A LE Ranger organization are basically the willing brutal hand of a judicial system that enforces medieval law. A LN character would balk at some execution methods, and torture is something they would rarely condone, an evil character would shrug and dismiss almost any atrocity as necessary or 'just part of the job'.

    I obviously can't go into historical examples, but there's no shortage of insanely cruel acts carried out by the enforcers of historical governments with the intention of deterring future incidents, getting personal revenge or occasionally for the sheer sadistic sport.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    You don't need to take pleasure or gain personally from evil acts to be evil, you just need to commit them with little to no remorse.

    If you show up to a 9-5 job five days a week where you boil infants because it's in your job description, then go home and be a perfectly nice guy, you're evil.

    If you take a job as a torturer, you're almost certainly evil pretty much regardless of why you took the job.
    If its a job then you're getting paid and that's a personal gain- what's the difference between your examples and an assassin-for-hire?
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    short answer yes.
    Longer answer. Alignment is kinda subjective and screwey and all of those weird things. But Lawful evil is like.. obeys a code, and actively uses it for evil, or does evil within the constraints of the code.
    The code here is help the innocent and punish the wicked, now I can see that being hard because that is typically a "good" aspiration, but say go overboard on the lengthsthey would go to do it. They torture anyone they see as wicked with no regard as to whether they are wrong, they make a contract with an archdevil to ensure that the "wicked" souls are forever punished in eternal torment, they kill the friends families and relatives of the supposedly "wicked" people etc.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    If its a job then you're getting paid and that's a personal gain- what's the difference between your examples and an assassin-for-hire?
    I wouldn't consider a wage you could get close to by working as a town guard as personal gain, you aren't making much more money as the average torturer or executioner than you could by doing anything else. It's also not really any easier than many other jobs and if you haven't got a particularly viscious legal authority to work for then the job isn't a reliable wage either.

    An assassin for hire either kills people in addition to working a normal job to elevate their living standard above what they can achieve legally, or charges so much they can live comfortably off infrequent jobs, letting them live a lazy life the majority of the time. They also aren't working for anything that could be called a legitimate employer. Working for the king, guard captain, duke, bishop or whatever is different from working for any random who can scrape together a sum of money.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I wouldn't consider a wage you could get close to by working as a town guard as personal gain, you aren't making much more money as the average torturer or executioner than you could by doing anything else. It's also not really any easier than many other jobs and if you haven't got a particularly viscious legal authority to work for then the job isn't a reliable wage either.

    An assassin for hire either kills people in addition to working a normal job to elevate their living standard above what they can achieve legally, or charges so much they can live comfortably off infrequent jobs, letting them live a lazy life the majority of the time. They also aren't working for anything that could be called a legitimate employer. Working for the king, guard captain, duke, bishop or whatever is different from working for any random who can scrape together a sum of money.
    A poorly-paid assassin is still an assassin- the evil is in the act, not the compensation for it. If anything, being paid less makes it worse because it means you value life so cheaply.


    Edit: I think we're getting sidetracked a little- to get back to the OP's question, I don't really consider to be either "punishing the wicked" or "protecting the innocent" as actions befitting a LE alignment. While violence may not be ideal if you're of Good alignment, if someone is wicked, then presumably they deserve some sort of punishment. It only would become Evil, IMO, if you go overboard and the punishment is totally out of line with the severity of the crime. And "protecting the innocent" is also pretty far from evil, unless you're using it to justify something like the well-intentioned-extremist. Even taking money for guarding someone isn't evil, it's just a job like bodyguard and law-enforcement officer. It's evil if you're running something like a protection racket where the party that your victim needs protecting from is you. And at that point, the "punish the wicker, protect the innocent" slogan is sort of turning into "Villain-with-good-publicity", which is a different sort of Trope, I think.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2020-12-25 at 03:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    They could easily be Lawful Evil. The punishments simply need to be both consistent and excessive.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    A poorly-paid assassin is still an assassin- the evil is in the act, not the compensation for it. If anything, being paid less makes it worse because it means you value life so cheaply.
    I don't believe I ever said torturers and executioners weren't evil.

    They're a different kind of evil, one considered legitimate and acceptable by the society in which they live, but still evil.
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    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    I don't believe I ever said torturers and executioners weren't evil.

    They're a different kind of evil, one considered legitimate and acceptable by the society in which they live, but still evil.
    I don't see an executioner as inherently evil though, assuming it's a legitimate part of the justice system, commensurate with the crime, and the accused has received a fair trial. Unless you believe there's no reason to ever sentence anyone to death, then someone is going to have to do the deed eventually.

    Torture, in the context of a game, is more borderline (IMO) depending on exactly what kind of setting you want to portray and how you define certain terms. Trying to avoid modern examples, it was definitely an accepted part of systems in past eras. Whether it was to extract information in the pursuit of justice or during wartime, or as a punishment for certain crimes (drawing & quartering), it definitely existed. Today we know that it doesn't work to reliably obtain information, and our societies have decided that death-by-torture is an excessive punishment regardless of the crime & conviction. But depending on what sort (if any) of historical setting you're looking to replicate, IMO it's up to the GM to decide how exactly certain actions are viewed by the NPCs and dieties in the world they create.

    Edit: I agree that you're right in that an act doesn't have to benefit the perpetrator to be evil- people can commit horrendous acts of out spite, or ignorance, or zealotry, etc (though often the person might THINK it will benefit them, somehow) but I don't think that was my original point. If I made it poorly, I apologize.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2020-12-25 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

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    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    I could see an executioner as being neutral, but their job is one that requires regularly comitting an irreversible act of harm on another person without immediate need. Of course given that a lot of them wind up with severe psychological issues as a result of their job you could say executioners often come to be conflicted about the job they've performed. Lot of tragic stuff in the history of hangmen and similar.


    On a setting wide morality thing, obviously we can't really go into specifics but the vast bulk of societies have values, cultural or spiritual, that condemn things like torture or the killing of another person. The people themselves just happened to be hippocrites about it. I myself am a hippocrite about things. A lot of the time I think people would count as evil by the ethics they profess to believe in, so I generally assume the average person in a fantasy setting has more in common with run of the mill indifferently-malicious evil than anything else.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Jul 2011

    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    As an aside, it actually does reliably extract information, even in the modern day. Whether it’s in French paras in Algiers hunting rebels, SS hunting down French partisans, NVA looking for intelligence on Americans, or Americans looking for extremists, raw physical pain has been an extraordinarily effective tool throughout the 20th to 21st century.

    The usual line “but they’ll just say anything” is negated by the most basic tenets of information gathering where anyone bothers to confirm or cross reference. And if the subject is still available false answers can be punished.

    Now, that doesn’t make it right, but we should own the moral decision to give away a tool for our consciences rather than lie to ourselves that it was never a tool to begin with

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    Part of their job is to keep 'the innocent' in. Those who try to escape the peasant utopia they have created are hunted down and dragged back in chains, their property forfeit to the guild, and their bodies subjected to enslavement at hard labor.

    I mean, we work so hard to keep you safe, and you turn your back on us and try to steal what we allowed you to use? Mud pits for you, where you will make bricks for the 'defensive' wall we're building for your 'protection.'

    Oh, and those hobgoblins? Yeah, the rangers pay them the town's 'surplus' to keep them around as a credible threat. If they catch a townsman outside the boundaries, they can do what they like with them so long as they return the head to the rangers.

    The protection racket is less about protecting those who pay for the service, and more about paying to not become a victim of the service provider.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Jan 2021

    Default Re: Could an order of rangers that "protect the innocent and punish the wicked" be LE

    The D&D alignment framework doesn't really handle extremism well. If you want them LE, the easiest way to do that might be to make their definition of "The Wicked" so expanisve that it includes the PCs or people who are committing victimless crimes (gambling, drinking, etc).

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