Bow vs. Spearchucker

[Human Paragon 3]

Assuming no precision damage is involved, who has the better damage output: an optimized archer with high STR and composite bow, or an optimized spear hurler? What feats are required for each build?

[Temp]

Archery has several major bonuses going for it:
1.It produces more attacks per round, making better use of Bonus Damage.
2.It has better feat/class/overall-game support.
3.It requires very little commitment (in the form of feats, classes and the like) to use effectively.
4.It is more flexible than using a single weapon (which spearmen will probably need to do).
5.It has better range.

Spears don't really have anything in their favor beside use as melee weapons. Situations where that would be neccessary can usually be avoided.

[dyslexicfaser]

Barring use of Master Thrower (archers don't really get a PrC), bow is going to come out on top.

[Gerrtt]

Yeah, I mean, just from a magic item perspective it's going to save you money as an archer too.

Think about it. If you have 4 attacks you need 4 spears enhanced with the returning property, minimum. And you can't move from where you are standing either because they go back to where you were when you threw them at the start of the next round. That gets costly, especially when you are talking about putting +x, flaming/frost/shocking/pickle whatever on them as well as returning. Not to mention that you'll need quick draw to make this effective as well.

I'd rather just get a bow. I don't need quick draw, the magic of the bow is put on any ammo I use, I can cast Greater Magic Weapon on a bunch of ammo at a time, and I get to save an enhancement by not putting returning on the bow. AND base damage is better overall for bows, you get better range, and you're sexier.

As much as I like throwing weapons in theory, bows just seem to come out on top.

[dyslexicfaser]

Agreed.

As I recall, The Master Thrower I mentioned above - if optimised - can spit out 16 thrown weapons a turn. But just imagining the costs involved to have them enchanted with returning or whatever... ew. Maybe you could custom-build a magic item or something, I don't know.

The logistics for a archer are just easier.

EDIT: So the answer to the question, "How many spears could a spearchucker chuck if a spearchucker could chuck spears?"

The answer is 16.

[ronnyfire]

i would actualy think spear if you like the blood thrower dude (forget the actual name)

[Counterspin]

If you guys could avoid using the word spearchucker in the future, since it's a relatively modern slur against black people, that would be nice. Otherwise, continue the discussion!

[Temp]

i would actualy think spear if you like the blood thrower dude (forget the actual name)

The first two (possibly four) levels of Bloodstorm Blade are nice, but the class still falls into the problems I was listing--It lacks the feat/class support of archery builds, it can't crank out enough attacks to benefit from bonus damage ranged builds usually rely on, it misses out on its turn's Swift action if it wants to make an effective attack, it relies on a shorter range--limiting ranged combat's main benefit--and it lacks the range and damage-type versatility of Archery builds.

[Dervag]

If you guys could avoid using the word spearchucker in the future, since it's a relatively modern slur against black people, that would be nice. Otherwise, continue the discussion!

White people would have as long and honorable a history of javelin tossing as black people if white people had existed as long as black people. Of course, white people are actually the mutated descendants of a small group of black people, so that is not the case.

Lancecasting, spearlobbing, and javelinchucking predate racial distinctions among humans, and indeed the current human species itself.

[dyslexicfaser]

Seriously? Spearthrower is a racial slur now?

You're not just pulling my white leg, are you? Why does no one tell me these things?

[TheOOB]

Plus spears miss out on having enchanted bows and enchanted arrows. You can have your arrows have a few low level enchantments that differ from your bows to make them even more powerful.

Really the only advantage throwing weapons have is that they apply str to damage, which a composite bow can do if your willing to throw in a few hundred extra gp.

[Kizara]

I would say, if you have a high str anyways, throwing spears is better early game.

You don't have a mighty bow yet, you dont care so much about range since the encounter is probably within your thrown range anyways, and you can do the same damage (1d8) but add your strength. You can easily carry 4-6 spears to chuck 1-round until the combat is over, and then pick them up afterwards.

Basically as soon as you can afford a mighty +6 bow or so, bow use becomes much more practical.

The only other exception is if your strength is REALLY high, and you can't manage to get bows made with a pull that high. Say your str is like 40-50, and getting +15-20 mighty bows isn't really concievable: spear throwing might be a better option.
Then again, by the time you can normally get stats that obscenely high you are in-or-near epics anyways, and there's an epic bow that lets you apply any str bonus you have (no matter how high) to its damage, so thats not much of an issue ethier.

[TheOOB]

+15 str bonus to a bow only costs 1,500. That should be easy to afford if you acually manage an ability score like that. Besides, most DMs would allow a +1 enhancement that makes the pull automatically adjust to your str, which helps if your str changes often.

[Kizara]

+15 str bonus to a bow only costs 1,500. That should be easy to afford if you acually manage an ability score like that. Besides, most DMs would allow a +1 enhancement that makes the pull automatically adjust to your str, which helps if your str changes often.

I'm aware that you could extrapoliate the chart to get that, but it doesn't mean such things could be generally made and accessable in a normal campaign world.

Where is such a enchantment? Got a source?
If you are homebrewing it, then that's like saying you allow a +1 (additional)enchantment on a spear that allows it to be returning fast enough to allow you to throw it as part of a full attack action: maybe you do, but its not currently RAW and thus a bit besides the discussion.

[dyslexicfaser]

Plus spears miss out on having enchanted bows and enchanted arrows. You can have your arrows have a few low level enchantments that differ from your bows to make them even more powerful.

Really the only advantage throwing weapons have is that they apply str to damage, which a composite bow can do if your willing to throw in a few hundred extra gp.

I was under the impression that enchanted bows bestowed the enchantment upon their ammunition; that you couldn't enchant the ammunition separately.

[EvilJames]

If the archer gets a composite bow, does the spearman get devices that aid him like the Roman spear thrower and the Native American atlatl, or the specialized throwing spears the Romans used that had increased range and the ability to spoil shields?

(also that particular racial slur has been around for some time. It was particularly popular amongst the rednecks of my high school when I was a kid. )

[Townopolis]

I know you can enchant ammunition. I think the enchantments don't technically stack anywhere they overlap, but anywhere they don't, you get both.

To put it more clearly, it's like a gestalt bow//arrow combo.

Say your bow has a +2 enhancement bonus and the flaming property. Say your arrows have a +1 enhancement bonus and the keen property.

Your bow has the higher enhancement bonus, so you use that, and then you get special abilities from both. Netting you a +2 keen flaming attack. However, if both classes (weapons) have the same property, you don't get it twice. (so you couldn't get a double flaming attack.)

[Mavian]

I do believe there is a magical gauntlet or glove somewhere that grants any weapon you throw the Returning ability for 10,000 gold, which greatly cuts down on the number of things you need to enchant. Gloves of Tarnhelm the Vigilante from the Players Guide to Faerun. Makes throwers a tad bit more economical.

With 5 levels of Master Thrower for Weak Spot, and the Brutal and Power Throw feats from Complete Adventurer, and a high strength score, it can be quite nasty.

[Dhavaer]

Throwers would benefit from Power Throw (or Brutal Throw? The Power Attack-y feat), which could definitely help keep up with Multishot and co.

[Temp]

I do believe there is a magical gauntlet or glove somewhere that grants any weapon you throw the Returning ability for 10,000 gold, which greatly cuts down on the number of things you need to enchant.

That's 10,000 gold burnt, a magic item slot spent and still four weapons left to enchant--Weapons that you're throwing into your enemies' reach every round.

Throwers would benefit from Power Throw (or Brutal Throw? The Power Attack-y feat), which could definitely help keep up with Multishot and co.

Yeah, Power Throw's the one.

The problem is sheer feat expediture for a 1:1 Power Attack tradeoff. You need six feats to be less effective than an archer is with three:
Quickdraw, Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Power Throw, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot v. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Rapid Shot.

[Iku Rex]

Where is such a enchantment? Got a source?

You want a Bow of the Wintermoon (MIC, 3400 gp), a relic item of Corellon Larethian usable by CN, CG or NG characters. It's a +1 composite longbow that automatically adjusts its pull to match your Str bonus. (You can add more abilities if you want.)

[Armads]

An advantage for spears is that with Bloodstorm Blade, you can deliver strikes through them and use Stormguard Warrior cheese with them (especially with Master Thrower). But if you do that, you're better off using shruiken.

[Person_Man]

You could build something respectable using either.

However, bows are much simpler to optimize. Keep in mind that you can buy a +1 Flaming Bow, use +1 Frost Arrows, and shoot +1 Flaming Frost attacks. Have a friend cast Greater Magic Weapon on the bow, and you'll increase the enhancement bonus. Ammo is relatively cheap, so at high levels you can stockpile different enchantments to deal with any potential enemy, buy arrows of different materials to deal with DR, etc. If your DM allows Champions of Valor, you can buy Splitting Arrows, which literally double the number of attacks you make a round.

The Cleric Archer (Zen Archery, buff, shoot) is well known as one of the more powerful CoDzilla options. But even the very simple Paladin 5/Kensai 10 is quite respectable - walking around with a +10 Bow, using all the money you save to buy a wide variety of cool arrows, using Divine feats to buff yourself, high Saves, bonus to Str, Concentration replaces Ref Save, etc.

[Mr. Moogle]

Barring use of Master Thrower (archers don't really get a PrC), bow is going to come out on top.

What about Orderof the bow initiate?

[Human Paragon 3]

Order of the Bow Initiate blows. You can only use its precision damage ability as a standard action to fire one arrow.

[Azerian Kelimon]

What about arcane archer? Sucks too, but at least you can get free enhancements.

[Not Dice]

Seriously? Spearthrower is a racial slur now?

"Spearchucker," specifically. It is, and has been for some time. Think back to the Anglo-Zulu war. It is used to imply that the target of the slur is uncultured or primitive. Roughly equivalent to "jungle bunny."


To the OP: If you're thinking of making a thrower and you're not opposed to something besides javelins/spears, you could consider the Hulking Hurler as something to progress towards. Heck, you could probably have Huge spears crafted from heavy metals and that might fit the bill for the Hurler's ammunition, lack of Returning enchantment notwithstanding.

[Telonius]

(also that particular racial slur has been around for some time. It was particularly popular amongst the rednecks of my high school when I was a kid. )

Say wha? Never heard it in my life, and I know quite a few rednecks. I move that we reclaim the noun. It's a new enough slur that we can ignore the people that use it. In return I promise to disregard spaghetti-eater.

Anyway, on to the problem at hand. Spear throwing builds have the same sorts of problems that other throwing builds have - where exactly are you getting the ammunition? You have to hold them somewhere, and spears (while generally light) aren't weightless. An Efficient Quiver will store up to six of them for no extra weight, so it would be an essential part of the build.

I'm honestly not sure whether getting the spear out of your quiver would count as a free action or a move action:

Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.

Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

... so does the Efficient Quiver count as a scabbard (in which case you'd need Quick Draw for a Free Action draw) or as drawing ammunition such as shuriken? This seems a little ambiguous to me, and DMs might rule differently on it.

Then there's the issue of what to do if you run out of ammunition. DMs are much more likely to keep track of how many spears you have, than how many arrows. On the other hand, if you're down to your last spear, you can still use it as a melee weapon. Otherwise you'll have to scrounge the battlefield for spent spears, and that is not fun to keep track of.

[Person_Man]

What about arcane archer? Sucks too, but at least you can get free enhancements.

Arcane Archer doesn't progress caster levels. Enhance Arrow is easily replicated by Greater Magic Weapon. All of its special abilities can be replicated by Ranger spells.


Honestly, there are no great Archer specific PrC. The Soulbow is ok, in that it grants 5 bonus feats and free arrow enhancements (which you can then combine with a magic bow, despite the artwork which implies otherwise).

[Artanis]

For what it's worth, bows also have the advantage of weight. With a bow, 6lbs gets you a weapon and 20 shots. With spears, 6lbs gets you 3 shots.