Enderlord's Random Banter #230 (Friendly warning: Might teleport. Don't get wet.)

[AtlanteanTroll]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

There is less dystopian cyberpunk, and there is also post-cyberpunk. You can argue both for and against the latter being it's own genre, and how integral the notion of dystopia is to cyberpunk.

But at the very least there are stories that take cyberpunk ideas and run in not entirely dystopian directions with them. The book Altered Carbon is halfway there, Snow Crash presents a relatively soft vision of your classic cyberpunk world structure (weakened government+strengthened corporations), and various other examples that slip my mind right now. You've also got TTRPG settings like Transhuman Space and Eclipse Phase that include strong cyberpunk elements but fall all over the place on the utopia-dystopia scale.

It all depends on what you count as cyberpunk. The historical roots of the genre go back at least decades before Neuromancer, I'd personally argue that Caves of Steel (a very idealistic novel with a society not meant to be dystopian or utopian) is an example of proto-cyberpunk (but YMMV). It's all a case of perspective and personal definitions.

I appreciate the level of thought that went into this post. I don't know much about cyberpunk, which is the main reason I asked.

I haven't had much time to read for pleasure, and when I do, it's generally been non-fiction. But, I do still love a good sci-fi novel. Ender's Game, Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Andromeda Strain, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Space Odyssey—Frankenstein and Brave New World, if those books count—are all among my favorites. Any recommendations of the books you discussed above, given the books I've mentioned here?

[Rater202]

I'm not the only one who occasionally fantasizes about being a fae-like being giving a carefree life in a pocket reality that bends to my every whim, am I?

[Sermil]

I appreciate the level of thought that went into this post. I don't know much about cyberpunk, which is the main reason I asked.

I haven't had much time to read for pleasure, and when I do, it's generally been non-fiction. But, I do still love a good sci-fi novel. Ender's Game, Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Andromeda Strain, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Space Odyssey—Frankenstein and Brave New World, if those books count—are all among my favorites. Any recommendations of the books you discussed above, given the books I've mentioned here?

Of course they count.

Pet peeve, I hate it when literary snobs try to discount all fantasy and sci-fi as "genre trash" and then ignore all the counter-examples. "Fantasy is all junk!" "OK, what about Midsummer Night's Dream and The Tempest?" "But those are Shakespeare, not fantasy!"

I keep waiting for a true Scotsman to come by and slap them, but of course no true Scotsman ever does.

[Anonymouswizard]

I appreciate the level of thought that went into this post. I don't know much about cyberpunk, which is the main reason I asked.

I haven't had much time to read for pleasure, and when I do, it's generally been non-fiction. But, I do still love a good sci-fi novel. Ender's Game, Jurassic Park, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Andromeda Strain, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Space Odyssey—Frankenstein and Brave New World, if those books count—are all among my favorites. Any recommendations of the books you discussed above, given the books I've mentioned here?

Okay, I've not read the first four you've mentioned but I have read the last four.

1. Caves of Steel is one of my four favourite books. It's Asimovian science fiction crossed with a kind of pseudo buddy cop, with exploration of the effectsof automation on a workforce.
2. If you can stomach exposition and musings on what people in their twenties like to think of themselves as Snow Crash is very good. Nut it kind of helps to have a decent grounding in classic cyberpunk.
3. Neuromancer is the cyberpunk novel. Not the best written, not the deepest characters, but an enjoyable plot and if you enjoythe genre it can be worth reading the codifier.
4. Altered Carbon is potentially overlong rather cheesy cyberpunk. It can be very enjoyable,especially how unlike the series it takes a more neutral stance on it's key technology, but it probably helps to like cheesy cyberpunk.

I keep waiting for a true Scotsman to come by and slap them, but of course no true Scotsman ever does.

That's because there's no such thing as a true Scotsman. I know, I was surprised as well, but the entire country did come out as nonbinary.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not the only one who occasionally fantasizes about being a fae-like being giving a carefree life in a pocket reality that bends to my every whim, am I?

Wait a minute, didn't I say I had that fantasy first or something much like it not too long ago? are you just copying me now?

[LaZodiac]

Yeah. Was fun.

I'm probably gonna go through Initial Sparks again at some point. See if there are any minor details I missed. Maybe fill out the Trope page more.

Always excited to hear stuff like this.

Yeah, I really ought to add some stuff to the Tropes page too. There really ought to be a YMMV subpage. There's some stuff in there that qualifies as Nightmare Fuel in my opinion.

I'll definitely reread Initial Sparks at least once before Hidden Embers comes out.

Still some time yet, don't worry

...Zodi?

So I actually got a bit...

Spoiler: Possible Spoiler's for Zodi's book

Show

Was Rei's home city being called "Laketown" a Tolkien reference?

Becuase, if so... That's a concerning reference to make when the protagonist has power over fire and a personality best described as being "fire incarnate."

...And now I'm imagining Rei as a dragon and it fits with what I recall of her character.

One of the benefits of being an active creator with a small community is that I can absolutely look at things like this and give answers to them.

With that in mind, not intentionally. I didn't even know the place was called Laketown in The Hobbit, and I watched the Hobbit films with my girlfriend like twoish years ago? Maybe? And I only watched LOTR probably a bit before then even. So yeah, not an intended reference. Cute thought though; and now I'm imagining Rei dressed up as a dragon for <insert name of Halloween equivalent here>

God, I had trouble reading it because of people at work talking and so never finished the first chapter. Sorry Zodi! (At least you still have my money. Unless you spent it.)

I really need to get back to writing. Get one of these story ideas down on paper, or actually finish one of my games (Intelligent Hamsters from Beyond the Stars is looking the mopst promising, mainly because I've written about 80% of the rules and the rest is setting, advice, and linking text).

It's okay! And hey, you HAVE the book. So long as you draw breath, there will time to read it (and my personal hope for an afterlife is that you just get to keep up with any media you're interested in because come on, that'd just be unfair otherwise!).

As for the discussion re: Cyberpunk... I genuinely don't know. I've somehow not read ANY of the famous Cyberpunk novels... except for Johnny Mnemonic. I guess The Matrix and associated films count as Cyberpunk, sorta kinda? There are aspects of it that are SUPER Cyberpunk and then also aspects of it that are Christian Rock Band Album Cover.

[BisectedBrioche]

Okay, I've not read the first four you've mentioned but I have read the last four.

1. Caves of Steel is one of my four favourite books. It's Asimovian science fiction crossed with a kind of pseudo buddy cop, with exploration of the effectsof automation on a workforce.
2. If you can stomach exposition and musings on what people in their twenties like to think of themselves as Snow Crash is very good. Nut it kind of helps to have a decent grounding in classic cyberpunk.
3. Neuromancer is the cyberpunk novel. Not the best written, not the deepest characters, but an enjoyable plot and if you enjoythe genre it can be worth reading the codifier.
4. Altered Carbon is potentially overlong rather cheesy cyberpunk. It can be very enjoyable,especially how unlike the series it takes a more neutral stance on it's key technology, but it probably helps to like cheesy cyberpunk.

That's because there's no such thing as a true Scotsman. I know, I was surprised as well, but the entire country did come out as nonbinary.

Isn't the author of AC a massive transphobe who keeps angrily defending The-Author-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named on Twitter?

[AtlanteanTroll]

Of course they count.

Pet peeve, I hate it when literary snobs try to discount all fantasy and sci-fi as "genre trash" and then ignore all the counter-examples. "Fantasy is all junk!" "OK, what about Midsummer Night's Dream and The Tempest?" "But those are Shakespeare, not fantasy!"

I keep waiting for a true Scotsman to come by and slap them, but of course no true Scotsman ever does.

I ask about Brave New World and Frankenstein not because I'm worried about a Scotsman argument, but because there seem to be some legitimate questions. Frankenstein is frequently referred to as "proto sci-fi," which makes sense, and I've rarely heard Brave New World called anything other than "dystopian."

Okay, I've not read the first four you've mentioned but I have read the last four.

1. Caves of Steel is one of my four favourite books. It's Asimovian science fiction crossed with a kind of pseudo buddy cop, with exploration of the effectsof automation on a workforce.
2. If you can stomach exposition and musings on what people in their twenties like to think of themselves as Snow Crash is very good. Nut it kind of helps to have a decent grounding in classic cyberpunk.
3. Neuromancer is the cyberpunk novel. Not the best written, not the deepest characters, but an enjoyable plot and if you enjoythe genre it can be worth reading the codifier.
4. Altered Carbon is potentially overlong rather cheesy cyberpunk. It can be very enjoyable,especially how unlike the series it takes a more neutral stance on it's key technology, but it probably helps to like cheesy cyberpunk.

Sounds like I should start with Neuromancer!

[Rater202]

Wait a minute, didn't I say I had that fantasy first or something much like it not too long ago? are you just copying me now?

I don't know.

All I know is that for a brief moment I was imagining being a thin, youthful elf or spritelike being, laying on a beach whose sand was warm but not hot and wasn't course, wasn't rough, wasn't irritating, and didn't get anywhere below a sun that warmed but did not burn and was bright enough to illuminate but not bright enough to hurt my sensitive eyes, while whatever beverage would most effectively quench my thirst would pop into existence jut as I began to need it and my thoughts were "why is this not reality?"

[Fyraltari]

I ask about Brave New World and Frankenstein not because I'm worried about a Scotsman argument, but because there seem to be some legitimate questions. Frankenstein is frequently referred to as "proto sci-fi," which makes sense, and I've rarely heard Brave New World called anything other than "dystopian."

Frankenstein or the modern Prometheus is also often refered to as the firdt science-fiction book. I guess it's a question of where one draws the line bit I see no reason not to call it science-fiction.

Brave New World happens in the far future where people use technologies that don't exist (but are extrapolations of then-current scientific knowledge) which have profoundly changed society. If it's not science-fiction nothing is. People not classing it and 1984, and basically every dystopian novel, as science-fiction stems from XX^thcentury snobs refusing to admit that science-fiction could be good literature.

[Anonymouswizard]

Isn't the author of AC a massive transphobe who keeps angrily defending The-Author-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named on Twitter?

No clue, don't use the site, list cared about the series years ago.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't know.

All I know is that for a brief moment I was imagining being a thin, youthful elf or spritelike being, laying on a beach whose sand was warm but not hot and wasn't course, wasn't rough, wasn't irritating, and didn't get anywhere below a sun that warmed but did not burn and was bright enough to illuminate but not bright enough to hurt my sensitive eyes, while whatever beverage would most effectively quench my thirst would pop into existence jut as I began to need it and my thoughts were "why is this not reality?"

Because reality is a bigger unfun inflexible rules-obsessed entity than every nerd ever combined into one?

[Rater202]

Because reality is a bigger unfun inflexible rules-obsessed entity than every nerd ever combined into one?

Then I shall have to create a device capable of generating enough energy to tear a hole in space-time and use it to travel to the Dragon Ball multiverse where I will then transfer myself into a Bio-Android created by combining the cells of the synthetic Majin Finn(preferably his ultimate form,) Super Buu after he absorbed Gohan, New Cell from Dragon Ball Legends, Dende as depicted in the backstory document for Dragon Ball Online, Super Broly, Muten Roshi, General Blue, the entire Ginyu Force, Kale and Califla from after the Tournament of Power, Elder Kai, All of the Dragon Ball Heroes Avatars in their "Super God" forms, Android 21, and the strongest forms each of Towa, Mira, Demigra, Poutine, Gravey, Shroom, Salsa, Fu, Dabura, and Mechikabura as well as he chip that is the core of the Big Gete Star and the schematics and combat data of Arale and all of the Red Ribbon Androids in order to create a nigh infinitely powerful being that can regenerate infintly and possesses vast magic, martial arts, and psionic power, then collect enough energy from enough beings to achieve the Demon God Form(which not only magnifies raw power to a degree comperable to Super Saiyan God, but magnifies the breadth and dempth of one's magical power and knowledge many times over as well) and master it to the final "Dark King" level, becofre finally coming back to the "real" world and using that vast magical power to alter the rules of reality to make it less of a kill joy.

Which, if I design the initial android form properly, might let me get away with the thin "fae-like" form thing as well.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Frankenstein or the modern Prometheus is also often refered to as the firdt science-fiction book. I guess it's a question of where one draws the line bit I see no reason not to call it science-fiction.

Brave New World happens in the far future where people use technologies that don't exist (but are extrapolations of then-current scientific knowledge) which have profoundly changed society. If it's not science-fiction nothing is. People not classing it and 1984, and basically every dystopian novel, as science-fiction stems from XX^thcentury snobs refusing to admit that science-fiction could be good literature.

A point well made! I suppose another issue with applying genre labels to Brave New World and 1984 is that the "science" is not really at the core of those stories, as opposed to any random space opera.

Then I shall have to create a device capable of generating enough energy to tear a hole in space-time and use it to travel to the Dragon Ball multiverse where I will then transfer myself into a Bio-Android created by combining the cells of the synthetic Majin Finn(preferably his ultimate form,) Super Buu after he absorbed Gohan, New Cell from Dragon Ball Legends, Dende as depicted in the backstory document for Dragon Ball Online, Super Broly, Muten Roshi, General Blue, the entire Ginyu Force, Kale and Califla from after the Tournament of Power, Elder Kai, All of the Dragon Ball Heroes Avatars in their "Super God" forms, Android 21, and the strongest forms each of Towa, Mira, Demigra, Poutine, Gravey, Shroom, Salsa, Fu, Dabura, and Mechikabura as well as he chip that is the core of the Big Gete Star and the schematics and combat data of Arale and all of the Red Ribbon Androids in order to create a nigh infinitely powerful being that can regenerate infintly and possesses vast magic, martial arts, and psionic power, then collect enough energy from enough beings to achieve the Demon God Form(which not only magnifies raw power to a degree comperable to Super Saiyan God, but magnifies the breadth and dempth of one's magical power and knowledge many times over as well) and master it to the final "Dark King" level, becofre finally coming back to the "real" world and using that vast magical power to alter the rules of reality to make it less of a kill joy.

Which, if I design the initial android form properly, might let me get away with the thin "fae-like" form thing as well.

If you're traveling to the Dragon Ball multiverse, couldn't you wish for all of this? What you've described sounds like much more work!

[DavidSh]

In a typical space opera, the science, such as it is, is mostly astronomy and physics. In Brave New World the science is mostly biology and psychology.

[Rater202]

If you're traveling to the Dragon Ball multiverse, couldn't you wish for all of this? What you've described sounds like much more work!

Shenron and Porunga are limited in what they can do--they cannot create or affect a being that is more powerful than themselves unless the being in question would consent to that wish(so, Porunga can't bring Goku to Earth becuase he wants to stay on Yardrat, but Shenron can send Broly back to Vampa because Broly doesn't want to be obliterated by Gogeta's blast,) certain dragons have arbitrary restrictions on their power for reasons that aren't always clarified: Porunga originally couldn't bring back more than one person at a time, while Shenron can't grant the exact same wish twice. Neither can bring back someone who died of old age or sickness, they can't fully restore someone who has been dead for more than a year, and Shenron can't turn a cyborg back into a normal human. Porunga also can't bring a living mortal to Otherword and refuses to grant a wish that would result in someone dying.

An android body made of those components would be many times over as powerful as themselves(a Dragon's power level is the same as their creator at the time of creation) and so would be beyond what they could make.

Ultimate Shenron or Super Shenron might be able to do it, as they are said to grant any wish but I'd need two wishes, one to make the android body and one to put myself in it, and those dragons only grant one wish each and are a pain and a half to collect in comparison to the other dragons.

Dark Shenron might be able to grant such a wish, since Dark Shenron was created by a mind-controlled Dende and Demo Goddess Towa working in conjunction(and may have absorbed the power of Frieza, Cell, Buu, Turles, Lord Slug, Broly, and Jenemba) and is known to be able to grant wishes a bit more complex than you normally see ("restore my youth, remove the seals on my power, and give back the power that as stolen from me" would be three wishes on another set of balls, methinks.) but those would honestly have to be the hardest to get considering that they work by traveling through not only Space but Time as well and fuse themselves with the most powerful force of evil they can find who then has to be killed to get the Dragon Ball

Doing it manually would honestly be the easiest way to do it.

Granted, the manual way of doing it would also have a lot of problems that I glossed over becuase that wasn't a serious statement, but still.

[Fyraltari]

A point well made!

Thanks.

I suppose another issue with applying genre labels to Brave New World and 1984 is that the "science" is not really at the core of those stories, as opposed to any random space opera.

What do you mean? I don't understand in what way science is more "at the core" of a given space opera (say Dune or Foundation) than for 1984 or Brave New World.

[Lord Raziere]

Granted, the manual way of doing it would also have a lot of problems that I glossed over becuase that wasn't a serious statement, but still.

Yeah, not the least of which is that its basically a supervillain plan, and not even a genre-savvy one at that. narratively speaking, your basically guaranteeing Goku will show up by pure chance to screw up everything simply because he wants a good fight, and even if your smart and take lots of precautions that might only force a time travel scenario in that universe, and thats when things get confusing and no one wants things to be confusing.

[Rater202]

Yeah, not the least of which is that its basically a supervillain plan, and not even a genre-savvy one at that. narratively speaking, your basically guaranteeing Goku will show up by pure chance to screw up everything simply because he wants a good fight, and even if your smart and take lots of precautions that might only force a time travel scenario in that universe, and thats when things get confusing and no one wants things to be confusing.

I mean,I'd probably be able to successfully get to my final form before things went to crap just from genre conventions.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean,I'd probably be able to successfully get to my final form before things went to crap just from genre conventions.

Though I think as long as you act sympathetically enough you'll only get off with a beating and kamehameha to the face with Goku looking forward to fighting you again someday. its if you act like Zamasu or Freeza that gets you Hell or erasure. though on the other hand, considering Perfect Cell has never been brought back in any canonical capacity...

[factotum]

A point well made! I suppose another issue with applying genre labels to Brave New World and 1984 is that the "science" is not really at the core of those stories, as opposed to any random space opera.

Science doesn't need to be at the core of a story to make it science fiction. Futuristic setting is enough, although I'd say that both 1984 and Brave New World also have futuristic *societies* that are extremely important to the way the stories pan out. Sure, you could *probably* have set 1984 in 1940s Soviet Russia and it would have made the same amount of sense, but I don't think Brave New World would so easily work taken out of its futuristic setting.

[Fyraltari]

Sure, you could *probably* have set 1984 in 1940s Soviet Russia and it would have made the same amount of sense.

Probably not, Ingsoc is a stand in for every totalitarian ideology not just stalinism, and both much more extreme and much more self-aware than stalinism. Also I'm not aware of any Newspeak project in Soviet Russia. Plus I think that the fact that we have no source of information about the world of 1984 except Ingsoc to be part of the horror. Is there even really a war going on? Who knows?

[Rater202]

Though I think as long as you act sympathetically enough you'll only get off with a beating and kamehameha to the face with Goku looking forward to fighting you again someday. its if you act like Zamasu or Freeza that gets you Hell or erasure. though on the other hand, considering Perfect Cell has never been brought back in any canonical capacity...

Even Freeza, Goku would have been fine letting him leave Namek alive and they just kind of... Let him go after he tried to have Broly kill them.

Which is odd, becuase Goku did basically say "yeah, a deals a deal you get to come back to life but I'll be around so don't do anything too bad" after Whis brought him back after the Tournament of Power.

Or you know, I could just be honest and say something along the lines of "my home reality sucks and I'm hoping to be able to become powerful enough to improve it for the better. If you don't get in my way maybe we could have a cool fight once I get my body replaced/modified. Honestly, it's gonna be a lot of work and a training partner or two might come in handy" in which case it will at most be a Super-esque "kinda filler kinda not" mini-arc based around a misunderstanding.

Maybe bribe Beerus and Whis to look the other way with some spicy miso ramen, because I'm having a bowl right now and that stuff is fricking delicious.

[Lord Raziere]

Probably not, Ingsoc is a stand in for every totalitarian ideology not just stalinism, and both much more extreme and much more self-aware than stalinism. Also I'm not aware of any Newspeak project in Soviet Russia. Plus I think that the fact that we have no source of information about the world of 1984 except Ingsoc to be part of the horror. Is there even really a war going on? Who knows?

Of course the horror of not knowing can be reversed around: the city they're in might be the last fascist one in existence desperately holding itself to continuing the charade no matter what and spreading lies about the rest of the world to make sure people don't escape. you don't know.

[Fyraltari]

Of course the horror of not knowing can be reversed around: the city they're in might be the last fascist one in existence desperately holding itself to continuing the charade no matter what and spreading lies about the rest of the world to make sure people don't escape. you don't know.

Even if that's true, none of that helps Winston, does it. I mean, North Korea has been doing its thing for about three generations now and it's not showing any sign of stopping.

That said, the fact the appendix about Newspeakbis written in preterit hints pretty strongly that Ingsoc eventually falls.

Now, wether what came after was any better...

[The Fury]

I rewatched Outlaw Star for the first time in years. For the most part it holds up, but...

Considering the last people I showed it to said that the off-model shots and over-reliance on stock sound effects really took them out of it, this might be a show that borders on unwatchable for the modern anime-nerd.

[LaZodiac]

I rewatched Outlaw Star for the first time in years. For the most part it holds up, but...

Considering the last people I showed it to said that the off-model shots and over-reliance on stock sound effects really took them out of it, this might be a show that borders on unwatchable for the modern anime-nerd.

If people can't handle the occassional off model then they don't deserve Aisha Clan-clan.

[Insane Jeenyus]

For Christmas I got a power outage.

for Christmas, all of Nashville Tennessee got an exploding Recreational vehicle in the downtown area. it shut down the cell phone network.

[Peelee]

again, three different genres of space pulp mixed together

Star Wars is a whole galaxy. Virtually any genre can be represented in it, and any kind of story can be told in it. Some of those stories are totally cuberpunk. Nar Shadaa is an excellent example of a cyberpunk setting.

also what are you talking about, Nar Shadaa is literally a city of urban decay run by crime lords with poor people who if they get a credit will get mugged for that credit if you give it to them. it is the most wretched of hives where desperation, scum and villainy are all that you'll find.

Sounds exactly like Mos Eisley. But not dystopian.

[Mystic Muse]

Sounds exactly like Mos Eisley. But not dystopian.

What is it missing to make it dystopian? Genuinely just curious.